J & K news and discussion

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Hari Seldon
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

Viv S wrote:Not at all. The primary reason for the persisting alienation IMHO (outside of historic reasons) is the fact that Kashmir is geographically alienated. That's why you don't have a lot of Kashmiris in the rest of India. And it will change once the Katra-Qazigund section of the Kashmir railway opens. The effect will be twofold - it'll spur the domestic industry within Kashmir and more importantly create people-to-people links through Kashmiris emigrating to the rest of India... particularly the metros.
By that logic, the ladakhis should be even more alienated, no? Turns out even the muslim majority kargil distt in ladakh is heavily pro-India (they're shia). And the Arunachalis - surely, more geographically isolated than the valley, no? And the mountainous areas where the gujjars and the bakarwals live (muslims again), are pro-India and are more geographically isloated than the valley is.

IMHO, saar, does seem like you are quoting selectively only to suit your viewpoint. Sure, everybody does it only and all that. But it doesn't help objective debate.
RamaY
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Viv S wrote: Not at all. The primary reason for the persisting alienation IMHO (outside of historic reasons) is the fact that Kashmir is geographically alienated. That's why you don't have a lot of Kashmiris in the rest of India. And it will change once the Katra-Qazigund section of the Kashmir railway opens. The effect will be twofold - it'll spur the domestic industry within Kashmir and more importantly create people-to-people links through Kashmiris emigrating to the rest of India... particularly the metros.
They were never stopped to migrate to rest of India. But why would they do it when they are getting special treatments in Kashmir?

Do you really think a train connection will create people-to-people contact and change Jihadi hearts? Especially when it didn't happen when they co-existed with Kashmiri pundits; and when hundreds of thousands of Amarnath yatris visit JK every year.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

sudeepj wrote: Politics is happening in Kashmir all the time, there is the hurriyat brand politics, Asiya andrabi brand politics, Geelani brand, Abdullah brand and so many other brands of politics. Why stop BJP from doing its own brand politics in Kashmir?
Because this is bad time to be doing so. Any unrest needs to be avoidable at this stage.
Sure, but that authority must be exercised in a reasonable and transparent manner. Giving any govt. a carte blanche to stop political expression that it does not agree with, is an invitation to a law and order situation that existed during the Emergency.

In this particular case, the BJP is not indulging in fire brand rhetoric, there has not yet, been a single act of violence in the yatra.

Now, if some mob leaders declare that they will stop one section of citizens from exercising their democratic right, its the responsibility of the state to ensure that this section of citizens gets to exercise its rights unfettered and without obstruction.
But, then they haven't tried to stop the march on a whim. Plus the central government has backed that play.

Viv S wrote: Is it really in the national interest? What does it really achieve besides solidifying the BJP's nationalist credentials?
That is a matter of opinion, and you have a right to yours as I have to mine.
To each his own.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Viv S,

If OA and MMS and their ilk have any brains they would have welcomed BJP yatra and made it a big success. That way, they could have made it a nationalistic celebration instead of politicizing it.

More than BJP, it is OA and MMS who are politicizing this yatra by showing a non-existent anti-nationalism in majority kashmiris.

We should be supporting those silent-majority Kashmiris, not a few hundred jihadi anti-nationals.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

Hari Seldon wrote:
Viv S wrote:Not at all. The primary reason for the persisting alienation IMHO (outside of historic reasons) is the fact that Kashmir is geographically alienated. That's why you don't have a lot of Kashmiris in the rest of India. And it will change once the Katra-Qazigund section of the Kashmir railway opens. The effect will be twofold - it'll spur the domestic industry within Kashmir and more importantly create people-to-people links through Kashmiris emigrating to the rest of India... particularly the metros.
By that logic, the ladakhis should be even more alienated, no? Turns out even the muslim majority kargil distt in ladakh is heavily pro-India (they're shia). And the Arunachalis - surely, more geographically isolated than the valley, no? And the mountainous areas where the gujjars and the bakarwals live (muslims again), are pro-India and are more geographically isloated than the valley is.

IMHO, saar, does seem like you are quoting selectively only to suit your viewpoint. Sure, everybody does it only and all that. But it doesn't help objective debate.
That's precisely why I edited my post to include - 'historical reasons'. You didn't really have that level of alienation in the 60s and 70s as the Pakistani intruders learnt the hard way during Operation Gibraltar. While geographical isolation does not lead to alienation, alienation can be addressed to large extent by improving the physical infrastructure connecting a region to the hinterland.

Again this is obviously my opinion gained from what I've read and my time living in Kashmir.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

RamaY wrote:Viv S,

If OA and MMS and their ilk have any brains they would have welcomed BJP yatra and made it a big success. That way, they could have made it a nationalistic celebration instead of politicizing it.


:D If they had even more brains, they'd have quit the Congress and NC and defected to the BJP. :D

More than BJP, it is OA and MMS who are politicizing this yatra by showing a non-existent anti-nationalism in majority kashmiris.

We should be supporting those silent-majority Kashmiris, not a few hundred jihadi anti-nationals.
Except that while those silent majority may have accepted something of this sort coming from the INC or NC, they'd resent it coming from the BJP.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

some seem to forget that 1991 was more turbulent than the present times. since 1991-2 national flag has been hoisted every year by Indians- before I forget- these Indians are not from INC or NC or commies

I am not branding them anti national but that it is likely petty politics behind all these because of secularism.
some party has been doing it all these years. Now the main opposition party has openly called for participation by INC and other parties to hoist the flag as in the years gone by.
why are GOI, commies and NC reluctant to join?

Are they afraid of being tagged along with BJP and branded anti minority or there warped sense of secularism will be doubted by minorities which will dent their votes.
Now who is playing politics.

J&K has been a troubled state all through the years. To maintain Peace is pure hogwash. why cannot all parties join together and hoist the national flag. It sends a powerful symbolic message to the terrorists that all parties are united. This simple message is lost in the altar of communalism by the so called secular parties.
Isnt jan 26 a day when all political differences are forgotten and show unity for the nation.
Last edited by krisna on 23 Jan 2011 07:13, edited 1 time in total.
Viv S
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

RamaY wrote:....Is it because you and your jihadi brothers view BJP as a hindu political party? ...
I'm a jihadi now. :D
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Viv S wrote:Except that while those silent majority may have accepted something of this sort coming from the INC or NC, they'd resent it coming from the BJP.
Aaaha, thank you for saying this.

So all this khulji is because BJP is doing it. That is mainly because it is seen as a Hindu nationalist party, am I right?

The INC/NC/Others would want to appease Muslims and muslims (who wouldn't) like to be appeased. For the nationalists it becomes a problem when that appeasement has to do with Indian national flag, Vandemataram or other national symbols.

So instead of educating the religious minorities of India non-BJPs parties keep them under this alienated feeling. And we want to keep that undisturbed and blame BJP instead???
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

krisna wrote:J&K has been a troubled state all through the years. why cannot all parties join together and hoist the national flag. It sends a powerful symbolic message to the terrorists that all parties are united. This simple message is lost in the altar of communalism by the so called secular parties.
Isnt jan 26 a day when all political differences are forgotten and show unity for the nation.
You believe that was the aim of the BJP's march. The secular parties don't. I don't. I distinctly recall a BJP yatra that lead a good deal of blood-letting. Sure this one's marketed as one of national importance, not a religious one. I can still see why the state and central governments would be worried.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Viv S wrote:
krisna wrote:J&K has been a troubled state all through the years. why cannot all parties join together and hoist the national flag. It sends a powerful symbolic message to the terrorists that all parties are united. This simple message is lost in the altar of communalism by the so called secular parties.
Isnt jan 26 a day when all political differences are forgotten and show unity for the nation.
You believe that was the aim of the BJP's march. The secular parties don't. I don't. I distinctly recall a BJP yatra that lead a good deal of blood-letting. Sure this one's marketed as one of national importance, not a religious one. I can still see why the state and central governments would be worried.
why cant INC and NC come together and join BJP to hoist the flag.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Viv S wrote:
RamaY wrote:....Is it because you and your jihadi brothers view BJP as a hindu political party? ...
I'm a jihadi now. :D
I hope not, but you definitely support Jihadi demands and covering it under nice language.

To my knowledge, the majority Kashmiris support India by participating in elections conducted under Indian constitution. They even voted for BJP (12 seats?) along with other parties.

People who do not accept integration with rest of India are jihadi minorities and political leaders who enjoy this exclusivity.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

RamaY wrote:
Viv S wrote:Except that while those silent majority may have accepted something of this sort coming from the INC or NC, they'd resent it coming from the BJP.
Aaaha, thank you for saying this.

So all this khulji is because BJP is doing it. That is mainly because it is seen as a Hindu nationalist party, am I right?

The INC/NC/Others would want to appease Muslims and muslims (who wouldn't) like to be appeased. For the nationalists it becomes a problem when that appeasement has to do with Indian national flag, Vandemataram or other national symbols.
I can see the BJP's PoV. Its a win-win situation -

1. If it goes through, the state provides security and god willing nothing untoward happens, you prove to the country you're bastion of national unity and strength.
2. Goes through, results in social unrest/violence. Still a bastion of strength. Any resulting violence is the state's problem. Its not like the BJP is expecting any votes from there anyway.
3. State puts a spanner in the works. Well shows up the secular parties as anti-national and well despite being in opposition the BJP did its best and that should appeal to nationalistic voters.
So instead of educating the religious minorities of India non-BJPs parties keep them under this alienated feeling. And we want to keep that undisturbed and blame BJP instead???
Ahh... educating them. Do tell. Can I assume the minorities were more educated after the BJP's rule ended in 2004?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

krisna wrote:why cant INC and NC come together and join BJP to hoist the flag.
Well the BJP ought to have proposed that before the hurdles came up and before it became a BJP event. Maybe it would have worked. I can't really say.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Viv S wrote: You believe that was the aim of the BJP's march. The secular parties don't. I don't. I distinctly recall a BJP yatra that lead a good deal of blood-letting. Sure this one's marketed as one of national importance, not a religious one.
what the mind does not want to know eyes cannot see is a often quoted term. You selectively recall a BJP yatra. In the same way recall many other yatra or procession or whatever you want to call by other parties and the violence associated with it.
I can still see why the state and central governments would be worried.
1) I can see that the state and central govts want to capitalise on the violence unleashed by them(NC and INC in cahoots with separatists likely) so that BJP gets a bad name and muslims vote against them.
2) If violence does not occur, both the govts pat themselves and make it big on the media saying that BJP was stopped in its tracks.
Either way it is a win win situation for them. It will make a favorable impression on pakistan and uncle and terrorists not to mention muslim votes.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Viv S wrote: You believe that was the aim of the BJP's march. The secular parties don't. I don't. I distinctly recall a BJP yatra that lead a good deal of blood-letting. Sure this one's marketed as one of national importance, not a religious one. I can still see why the state and central governments would be worried.
Well, I too remember a Ganesh yatra that lead to a good deal of blood-letting in Hyderabad. Should we stop Ganesh Chaturthi there?

By the way, before that yatra there have been multiple religious riots in India. What should we blame those on? for example

1953 - Kota
1956 - Kota
1961 - Jabalpur
1964 - Rourkela, Calcutta, Jamshedpur
1967 - Hatia, Ranchi
1968 - Aurangabad
1968 - Karimganj
1969 - Ahmadabad
1970 - Bhiwandi
1970 - Jalgaon
1979 - Mahad
1972 - Nonari and Sajni
1977 - Varanasi
1978 - Sambhal
1978 - Aligarh
1978 - Hyderabad
1979 - Jamshedpur
...
...
...
RamaY
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Viv S wrote:Ahh... educating them. Do tell. Can I assume the minorities were more educated after the BJP's rule ended in 2004?
Of course. Go read about what Modi is doing in Gujarat and recent comments by AMU VC.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Viv S wrote:
krisna wrote:why cant INC and NC come together and join BJP to hoist the flag.
Well the BJP ought to have proposed that before the hurdles came up and before it became a BJP event. Maybe it would have worked. I can't really say.
Flag hositing has been going for years since 1991 yatra. Nothing new here.
Now you put the onus on BJP that they should have called the other parties. :(( read my earlier post for your benefit-


http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1015915
Last edited by krisna on 23 Jan 2011 07:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

So,
(1) Kashmiri Muslims "were" Sufis - which is what, "peaceful/tolerant" supposedly [what should we call people who deliberately deny and twist their history to protect Sufis? Sufis do not themselves feel shy apparently of their violent deeds!] for hundreds of years, right? Surely that heavyweight spiritual tradition should not be upset with a mere temporal/material issue of rigged elections in one particular year so much so that they either actively or passively let Kshmiri Pundits be raped/masscared/expelled? [By the way nothing happened that gave indications of late 80's before the 80's - destruction of temples/sites on the sly for example?]

(2) If instead of BJP, INC went to raise the national flag there would not be trouble? Why is BJP's going there a problem? It can be a problem from realpolitik excuses only to the INC, right? So the main problem in BJP's yatra is Congress's khujli against BJP? So Congress's political shenanigans have to be given importance over even tokenism/symbolic nationalism?

(3) Why is not Congress's opposition to BJP yatra a problem because it gives a party's sentiments place above national symbols? Why is not NC and Congress's opposition be seen as a vile and reprehensible political opportunism that should be rejected?

(4) Is not meeting demands of groups under the threat of "public disorder" an extra-constitutional method of legislating? People who disagree can always ask for a referendum or seek injunction from the courts or express their dislike by elections, no? At the minimum they can set up a candidate exclusively with the platform demands coinciding with their own and get him elected! Why should respecting public disorder be the excuse given whenever it is a case of rioting by any shade of Islamism?

If public disorder is justification enough, why was what happened in Ayodhya not acceptable? Why not what happened in Gujarat "public disorders"? They represent then legitimate popular demands! Why should it only be used to chase out Tasleema Nasreen or placate stone pelters in Srinagar?

(5) If the same flag hoisting is seen as acceptable from Congress by Kashmiri Muslims but not from the BJP then what does it make of the NC and the Congress? What is different in BJP from these two ? BJP on the one hand is not supposed to have any influence in the state, so why should it matter if it raised the national flag? Which "national" group would express their disrcimination even on the national flag based on who raised it? Only a group for which the national flag is itself valueless, and therefore who raises it and what can be gained out of allowing it or not allowing it is worthwhile to consider. Such statement only then show that NC and Congress are Islamophile and even pro-Jihadis, and will be helpful for the separatist/pro-Paki/Jihadi cause.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pranav »

Hari Seldon wrote: Yes, I must make the admission that I have very little sympathy or goodwill for the valley KMs. They stood by and did nothing (and quite a few actively collaborated in) the targetted ethnic cleansing of a hapless, peaceable minority and the subsequent bigotry, land-grab, temple-burning and property-theft of this minority's possessions left in the valley in a systematic manner.

If the valley KMs are allowed more leeway, special treatment, appeasement, more taxpayer funded goodies and subsidies at this time, what is to stop a mehgalaya or nagaland or mizoram opr heck, even a tamilnad deciding that a strategic dangling a separatist/alienation/mob violence stick is the most effective and efficient way to get ever more carrots outta Dilli and the other states of Yindia indefinitely, eh?
Kashmir has to be compared to Afghanistan under the Taliban before 9/11 or Bangladesh in the year 1971. Just because there were no "civil society" types protesting against the Talibs in places like Kandahar does not mean that the majority of the Pashtuns support the Talibs.

One should look at Kashmiri Muslim society as being divided into 4 groups:

(A) There is usually a small core of violent fanatics,
(B) A larger number of those who may not actually slit their neighbour's throat but still may dream of Islamist glory,
(C) A still larger number of those who are indifferent and trying to get on with life, and finally,
(D) those who disapprove of Islamism but are not going to risk their necks by speaking out.

The percentages may vary with time, but I would say groups (C) and (D) constitute a large majority of Kashmiri Muslims today.
Last edited by Pranav on 23 Jan 2011 08:18, edited 2 times in total.
archan
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by archan »

RamaY, don't get down to name calling. I welcome open debate up to the point when this starts. He has his POV and IMO he is doing a pretty good job of articulating it. You and I don't have to agree cent per cent but you cannot start the name calling business like this. Thanks.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Dipanker wrote:
Viv S wrote: Who's they? Have you decided to equate the entire general population with militants? And are you trying to contradict the fact that the Islam practised in Kashmir is mainly of the Sufi sect?
They are the people who drove the 1/4 million Kashmiri pundits out. They are the same people who have not allowed them back in 20 years. Sufism is not Jainism, it is closer to Wahabism than you think, difference is only in degree.
Viv,
yeah sufi brand was practised in all its glory.
Kashmir Hindus: Forsaken, forgotten for 21 years
January 19 is an insignificant day for most of the people around the world. It comes and goes and nobody notices. But for the last 21 years, for one community, it is the day that brings back frightening and dreadful memories.
It is the day when 21 years ago final nail in the coffin of forsaken community of Kashmiri Hindus was hammered. It was the day when Islamic terrorists and their sympathisers gave 24 hours eviction notice to Kashmiri Hindus. It was the day when the threats ofRaliv, Galiv Ya Chaliv (Convert, die or escape) replaced the sounds of evening Azaan (prayers) from majority of mosques in the valley of Kashmir. this must be music- sufi mysticism practised by kashmir muslims :twisted: :evil:
It was the day when so-called secularism died in Kashmir. It was the fateful day when humans lost and beasts took over. It was the day that will remain etched in the memories of Kashmiri Hindus worldwide because on this day they lost the most precious thing they had -- their homeland.
And did rest of the world care?
No. Not then, not now
.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

krisna wrote: what the mind does not want to know eyes cannot see is a often quoted term. You selectively recall a BJP yatra. In the same way recall many other yatra or procession or whatever you want to call by other parties and the violence associated with it.
Then those other yatras/processions should not have been allowed to take place. Ensured peace needs to be the first priority. Addressing the root causes of unrest comes later.
I can still see why the state and central governments would be worried.
1) I can see that the state and central govts want to capitalise on the violence unleashed by them(NC and INC in cahoots with separatists likely) so that BJP gets a bad name and muslims vote against them.
2) If violence does not occur, both the govts pat themselves and make it big on the media saying that BJP was stopped in its tracks.
Either way it is a win win situation for them. It will make a favorable impression on pakistan and uncle and terrorists not to mention muslim votes.
1) I don't think the BJP has a lot of support to lose amongst muslims. That apart the real gainer in vote terms would the PDP. The INC and NC would lose out in either case.
2) Within the valley, it wouldn't make much difference, but it would lose some support among nationalists. The NC would be unaffected.

Just as I'm not really jihadi or beholden to their like, rhetoric apart, no party is actually looking for brownie points from Pakistan, US or terrorists.
Last edited by Viv S on 23 Jan 2011 08:14, edited 1 time in total.
Viv S
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

krisna wrote: Viv,
yeah sufi brand was practised in all its glory.
Kashmir Hindus: Forsaken, forgotten for 21 years
January 19 is an insignificant day for most of the people around the world. It comes and goes and nobody notices. But for the last 21 years, for one community, it is the day that brings back frightening and dreadful memories.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at -

1. I haven't rejected or tried to justify driving out the Kashmiri Pandits, so your link isn't news to me.
2. Wahhabi or Sufi isn't an adjective, its a common noun, so I don't see how I was wrong while making that statement.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

some tweets:
https://twitter.com/#!/primary_red
Right to call BJP cynical. But cynicism ain't illegal. It's incumbent on the Govt to protect this freedom against enemies of the State

Let me spell this out for our PM. Those who seek to divide India are divisive. Those who offend them, are not. Don't need a PhD to get this

If they feared provoking others, Gandhi wouldn't have marched to the sea & the unknown Chinese man wouldn't have halted tanks in Tiananmen
Weird. Usually disagree with this guy. But he's right n this one. A genuine as opposed to fake liberal, perhaps.

And these from the inimitable sri kanchan gupta:
https://twitter.com/#!/KanchanGupta
Coincidence? Many upset over Tiranga at Lal Chowk were also upset when Jammu erupted in fury over anti-Amarnath Yatra violence in Kashmir. :P

On that occasion too we heard, Oh let's not confront the Islamists lest they feel upset. Let's scrap the Yatra. Didn't we?

So now we are hearing, Oh why hoist the Tiranga lest the boys feel outraged? Leave them alone to do this http://twitpic.com/3sds6z

When the Green Brigade took to streets to disrupt and block Amarnath Yatra, commentariat said: Let's be mindful of sensitivities. :evil:

Now to appease Green Brigade, we hear same cant from commentariat: Let's be mindful of sensitivities, let's not fly Tiranga.

And so it shall go on. Srinagar this Jan 26. Hyderabad next. Then Delhi one day. Why hoist the Tiranga at all since it hurts sensitivities?

The place, time and context that are being cited now to block Tiranga at Lal Chowk will one day be cited for Tiranga at Chandni Chowk. :eek:

During Kargil conflict jholawallahs and mombattiwallahs actually suggested why are we so keen to get back a few km of land. :eek:

The mombattiwallah argument was: Not a blade of grass grows in Drass, so why fight for it? :evil:

JN: Not a blade of grass grows in Aksai Chin. Mahavir Tyagi reffing to JN's bald head, asked whether we should give it away. :rotfl:
Last edited by Hari Seldon on 23 Jan 2011 08:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ManuT »

About this Chenab formoola. 
Why pick Chenab? If one has to pick rivers arbitarily then why not pick Indus? Why keep it to J&K? Why not pick TSP Punjab extend it to Sindh?
 Needless to say TSPians of Mush's genre have the habit of bringing out solutions like monkeys coming out from a crack. Anyways, I thought formoola died a long time ago.

About sadr e riyasat.
Question is why the PM not discussing Article 370 with the leader of opposition in RS  rather than discussing sadr e riyasat.

If India is to revert to a system of sadr e riyasat in J&K is GOI willing to give this to other States. If not, why bother? 

About Joint Management
How will it be different from what it currently exists on the ground?

Do we mean that TSP will have a say in Jammu and Ladakh too or does it restrict itself to DG ISI taking a boat ride in a Shikara of Dal Lake? What about India's say in POK and other areas ceded to China by TSP (putting aside Aksai Chin for a moment here)? Will India get a say in the railroad being built to connect to Gwader? If not, why bother?
Viv S wrote: I'm curious... how many of those involved in this debate have ever resided in Kashmir (not Jammu)?
Using this logic we won't be able to comment on TSP or China. But we know because we are aware of it's actions. But why ask this question? Do people of Jammu do not count in J&K? because they are a minority in that State? Can we extend this logic to the rest of India?
 
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Viv S wrote:
krisna wrote: what the mind does not want to know eyes cannot see is a often quoted term. You selectively recall a BJP yatra. In the same way recall many other yatra or procession or whatever you want to call by other parties and the violence associated with it.

Then those other yatras/processions should not taken place. Ensured peace needs to be the first priority. Addressing the root causes of unrest comes later. Peace is to be ensured by state. If state joins every Indian in hoisting the national flag. who will indulge in violence. terrorists will indulge in violence whatever the reason. we can always address the root cause of terrorism later.
I can still see why the state and central governments would be worried.

1) I can see that the state and central govts want to capitalise on the violence unleashed by them(NC and INC in cahoots with separatists likely) so that BJP gets a bad name and muslims vote against them.
2) If violence does not occur, both the govts pat themselves and make it big on the media saying that BJP was stopped in its tracks.
Either way it is a win win situation for them. It will make a favorable impression on pakistan and uncle and terrorists not to mention muslim votes.


1) I don't think the BJP has a lot of support to lose amongst muslims. That apart the real gainer in vote terms would the PDP. The INC and NC would lose out in either case. Then BJP is not playing politics as they dont have anything to gain. Politics is played when something is there to gain. IOW non BJP parties gain by opposing or at least maintain their support by opposing BJP. Now who is playing politics- is it BJP or non BJP along with conniving media.
2) Within the valley, it wouldn't make much difference, but it would lose some support among nationalists. The NC would be unaffected. IOW by supporting BJP and hositing the flag NC would lose muslim votes. Arent the non BJP parties looking communally by dividing Indians into Hindus and muslims.

Just as I'm not really jihadi or beholden to their like, rhetoric apart, no party is actually looking for brownie points from Pakistan, US or terrorists.
krisna
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Viv S wrote:
<snip>
I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at -

1. I haven't rejected or tried to justify driving out the Kashmiri Pandits, so your link isn't news to me.
2. Wahhabi or Sufi isn't an adjective, its a common noun, so I don't see how I was wrong while making that statement.

Because of this
Viv S wrote:
Who's they? Have you decided to equate the entire general population with militants? And are you trying to contradict the fact that the Islam practised in Kashmir is mainly of the Sufi sect?
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1015941

IMO it does not matter if something is noun or adjective etc. what matters is live and let live and not I live you convert or die features inherent in certain religions. I want to be respected and I will give the same respect but not tolerance as proclaimed by some. tolerance is very inferior to mutual respect.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

*sigh* onlee. After 10+ pages of discussions, people still don't get it.

RamaY, Prem, ravi_ku, Hari, brihaspati and other guru logs.... let us not waste our time.

Mupalla guru...excellent posts.
Hari Seldon
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

jamwal,

IIRC you'd posted pics of police brutality including firing on civil pro-Amarnath protesters in Jammu. Particularly remember one with the tricolor in prominent display. Could you post a link to the same, pls? TIA.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Dhiman »

Viv S wrote: Because this is bad time to be doing so. Any unrest needs to be avoidable at this stage.
My apologies for saying this, but this is a clear cut example of what is generally referred to as "dhoti shivering" around here. If my memory of last few years is correct, Kashmir in general can only be in three states: 1) relative clam after a period of violence, and 2) violence after a period of relative calm, and 3) the usual summer of bonus violence, bonus protests, bonus Pakistani flag hoisting, and bonus separatist speech giving.

Given that what you describe as "bad time" is stage 1, I am quite sure that 2, and 3 will also be bad time, i.e its bad time all the time. So basically your subjective notion of bad time is just an excuse to justify dhoti shivering.

Personally I could care less about a symbolic flag hoisting, what I am more interested in is communicating to the separatists that 1) they are not the only once who have "sentiments", and 2) they do not have a monopoly on staging protests in Kashmir Valley. Morally it will be another blow to the separatists who are so proud of their violent protests and Pakistani flag hoisting.

Whether the flag is hoisted on Lal Chowk per se is also irreverent, what would be relavent would be to get as close to Lal Chowk as peacefully possible, assemble there, hoist flag, make big speeches all day, and then in the end declare that next year we will get closer with double the number of people. - This would be good enough to get the message across.
Last edited by Dhiman on 23 Jan 2011 11:04, edited 1 time in total.
Dhiman
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Dhiman »

self delete duplicate post
Viv S
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

Marten wrote:Viv S is consumed by the politics of it all. No realpolitik need enter the discussion, eh?

What if it were a bunch of Kashmiri Pundits trying to raise the Indian flag at Lal Chowk?
I don't think they'd be threatened or that the situation would escalate. Its unlikely the state govt. would be too bothered assuming the venue didn't already have a function scheduled. Of course this is my opinion only.
Who said the BJP does NOT have support in the valley. In this case, it is not just a bunch of Kashmiri Pandits who were trying to publicise the Yatra. Check the names of the local district representatives who got arrested. All were Muslim.
I said it and I will repeat it. The BJP has NO support in the valley, district representatives being Muslim notwithstanding. Of course no support doesn't imply mathematically zero supporters. I'm sure they have an office in Kashmir with staff and a coterie of supporters.
The vast majority of folks who oppose militancy are unable to articulate themselves since unlike the polite opposition you're faced with, they face bullets and indiscriminate killings. We cannot post an army man in the house of every Kashmiri who wants protection. What we can do is help them by disarming the militant minority and the folks who fund militancy. To do so, we need to first build up nationalistic sentiment (or at least the ability to put up a more vocal opposition to the militants). See it is the same game played by both sides; except "we" are being nice about the rules.

We = India, and the Indian establishment, including the majority of folks in the valley who do not want secession.
The vast majority of people are NOT pro-militancy but are still alienated. And seeing as I've repeated this, I guess I might as well illustrate it with an example. A close friend of mine hails from Srinagar (though we didn't meet up when I stayed there). His dad's a senior police officer in the JKP and he graduated from an IIT. His grandfather was shot on the street by soldiers on suspicion of being a militant. Now while my friend is pro-India, its very easy to tell he's very alienated, and considers the state of affairs as imposed on Kashmir from New Delhi responsible (a view most in his native place share).

For all the rights and wrongs of it, fact remains a yatra by right wing hard-liner party in the state is resented by those in the valley. Call them traitors or make it a matter of principle, a show of muscle doesn't win them over.
They = The militant Wahhabi adherents to a thought process of either secession or alienation in some form. These are the same folkers you call Sufiya. Heh.
I haven't referred to the militants (the core of which were Pakistanis indoctrinated in Wahhabi teachings) as belonging to the Sufi sect. This is precisely what I told Krisna, though I couldn't really comprehend his reply. Sufi or Wahhabi isn't a description, its an actual religious sect (maybe it would more accurate to call it a tradition in the case of Sufism).
It is bloody-mindedness if not simple-mindness that claims we should assuage the feelings of the militants and not aggravate them. Boots on the ground determine who holds strategic ground. Why don't you support helping willing Indian citizens into the valley. Are you saying finding 5 lac people to support the local economy is difficult?
Militants are fast losing relevance. The insurgency has been dormant for a while now, especially compared to what it was a decade ago. Point is to marginalise the separatists by bringing the moderates into the limelight. And instead of bringing Indians from the heartland into the valley, I think at this stage it'll be better and softer approach would be to take the Kashmiris into rest of the country.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

Ajatshatru wrote: Now coming to the second point, since you are the 'learned one' and you have made an assertion 'which gives the entire valley to Pak', stop making too clever by half statements and now prove beyond a reasonable doubt (the issue was just not merely discussed) but had been decided to 'give the entire valley to Pak' during ABV regime.
When did I say that ABV had "decided" to give the valley..the only point was that the Chenab plan (which gives the valley away) was discussed by Mishra and Naik..Just because a certain position is being discussed (I used the term diplomatic kites), doesnt mean that executive action has been taken...similar to whatever is being alleged to have been discussed by MMS, no?

About the factuality, well maybe I was overestimating the AQ!

anyway, here goes..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3048215.stm
As it was revealed later, apart from having formal talks, the two prime ministers decided to establish secret, unofficial lines of communication to discuss some of the more contentious issues between the two sides.

During this secret process, the former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, Niaz A Naik, held a series of meetings with an Indian businessman, RK Mishra.

Both men had the blessings of their respective prime ministers, and according to Mr Naik, one of the few proposals they discussed in all seriousness was the so-called Chenab formula.
There are more juicy bits about Naik going to Imperial Hotel in Delhi to get a tourist map(!) to flesh out the plans etc etc in various books...

SO it was, there it was discussed, but no one sold out anything...Kasuri claims something was "discussed", maybe it was..But obviously nothing has come to the Parliament...That is the bottomline..Nothing else..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Viv S »

Dhiman wrote:
Viv S wrote: Because this is bad time to be doing so. Any unrest needs to be avoidable at this stage.
My apologies for saying this, but this is a clear cut example of what is generally referred to as "dhoti shivering" around here. If my memory of last few years is correct, Kashmir in general can only be in three states: 1) relative clam after a period of violence, and 2) violence after a period of relative calm, and 3) the usual summer of bonus violence, bonus protests, bonus Pakistani flag hoisting, and bonus separatist speech giving.
How did you come to that conclusion? Compare the situation today with that five, ten and fifteen years ago. Its not satisfactory today, but there's been a world of change in people's attitude's since. The insurgency for one has been tottering for a while and seems to be on its last legs with India taking strong military and diplomatic steps to counter it as well as the people of the valley losing patience with the cycle of violence engendered by it. The active participation in elections has been another game changer. If things remain on course, by 2020 every Kashmiri would have an very tangible economic stake in the fortunes of India.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by kit »

x posting

Time for India to declare its CORE interests.That would mean it is non negotiable.How about Kashmir and Arunachal for starters ?
abhishek_sharma
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

kit wrote:x posting

Time for India to declare its CORE interests.That would mean it is non negotiable.How about Kashmir and Arunachal for starters ?
Please do not include Kashmir. It would hurt the "sensitivities" of some people. It could lead to "law and order" problems.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

<rant of heighest order>
Hey, saying Arunachal Pradesh hurts the sensitivities of the chinese.

How dare you, dhoti clad SDRE include it in core interests when the tallest and deepest friend says so??

By the way, we cant include delhi in it. After all, doesnt it hurt pakistan army's sensitivities? Isnt their dream to flying their flag over red fort. We should take care of their sensitivities as well.



Of course, the pandits are trash and we shouldnt take any care of their sensitivity even if they killed and pushed out of kashmir.

I have no idea what position your friend's father is in, what his father/grand father did/did not do during the insurgency. My sympathies for his family for being in a difficult situation. However I am also tired of listening to this stuff "Oh my son is a acha bacha, he is innocent and always used to be quiet and whole neighborhood knew him as good."
</rant>
Last edited by Virupaksha on 23 Jan 2011 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by archan »

Please guys lets keep the sarcasm out. There might be more sense in what Viv S says than we might be giving credit for. I still don't quite get how hoisting an Indian flag there would cause the alienated to alienate more. I can see the taqleef it would cause the separatists but we are making a distinction now.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by arjunm »

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/131 ... -flag.html

50,000 youth to arrive in Jammu for flag hoisting:BJP
BJP today claimed more than 50,000 youths will arrive in the city to proceed with 'Rashtriya Ekta Yatra', which will culminate on Republic Day after hoisting of the tricolour at Srinagar's Lal Chowk.

"More than 50,000 youth of the country are reaching to Jammu on January 25 and would proceed to Kashmir to hoist the tricolour in the Valley and no force on earth can stop us from doing so," state BJP President Shamsher Singh Manhas told reporters here today.

"Any misadventure envisaged by the state government would be thwarted and state BJP would see that tricolour unfurls at Lal Chowk," he said.

He also accused Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who is opposing the BJP's plan", of having "strong separatist leaning".

His views were supported by national executive member Nirmal Singh and MLA Ashok Khajuria, who said the party is firm to hoist the tricolour at Lal Chowk.
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