Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 22 Dec 2012 22:53

Just wanted to say - that the relative low frequencey of Indians in tenured positions within UK in the basic sciences might seem low not just because Indians have lower ability of thrust on this, but because Indian promising ones might actually have USA/Canada/Oz as their first preferences as destinations to seek tenured careers.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 22 Dec 2012 23:21

brihaspati wrote: I guess if you have a problem with an Indian avoiding taking up employment in the public sector [which means you serve the crown] within UK out of ideological or heritage considerations, and you think it is worthy to mock him for respecting his ancestor's wish/will about not serving the British crown - you show everything that can go wrong with the character of a man in his intense masochistic desire to lick the boots of masters against whom millions of his motherland's men and women struggled and fought.

wah wah brihasPotty-mullah, such great ideals. When you are done passing fatwas, you may learn to tell the difference between doing academic work and "serving the crown".

Presume you think [Sir: until Independence] Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan was "licking the boots of masters against whom millions of his motherland's men and women struggled and fought" when he was Professor of Religion and Ethics at Oxford University from 1936 to 1952? What a pathetic joke ...

brihaspati wrote: Yes, I left a decimal point behind - but you have left behind your entire character, if you ever had any.

Just face it, you can't add. And, as for your character:

http://www.banklawyersblog.com/.a/6a00d ... 970c-popup

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 23 Dec 2012 00:15

wow...why such bitter hatred? don't understand why we need to stoop so low against each other to protect the vaunted reputation of the Brits...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 00:26

eklavya wrote:
brihaspati wrote: I guess if you have a problem with an Indian avoiding taking up employment in the public sector [which means you serve the crown] within UK out of ideological or heritage considerations, and you think it is worthy to mock him for respecting his ancestor's wish/will about not serving the British crown - you show everything that can go wrong with the character of a man in his intense masochistic desire to lick the boots of masters against whom millions of his motherland's men and women struggled and fought.
wah wah brihasPotty-mullah, such great ideals. When you are done passing fatwas, you may learn to tell the difference between doing academic work and "serving the crown".

Presume you think [Sir: until Independence] Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan was "licking the boots of masters against whom millions of his motherland's men and women struggled and fought" when he was Professor of Religion and Ethics at Oxford University from 1936 to 1952? What a pathetic joke ...

brihaspati wrote: Yes, I left a decimal point behind - but you have left behind your entire character, if you ever had any.
Just face it, you can't add.

Sure, as many of your ilk justified working for the Nazis because they were onlee doing academics.

Just face it, you have even lost the mental capacity to recognize how far you have sunk in your hagiographic tendencies. Surely you have noted, in many posts before, that I have not eulogized or admired any Indian who served in the British setup without resigning, recanting or apologizing afterwards for it. I have not touched SR in any of my posts.

You are picking on a typos error, because you have nothing to go on on, and have plenty to hide - where it concerns the very issues you have raised about the difficulties with the british education system. These are issues raised within the UK public discussion sphere, is asubject of debate at the pubs and homes, newspapers are at it for quite a while, commissions have been built to look into it.

There have been serious accusations of tampering with and over-inflating of grades, as well as breakdown of discipline, and doubts about the effectiveness or actuality of knowledge/skills imparted and absorbed. If you were seriously interested in the topic, you would bring those stuff up. Since you are completely dishonest, and as I said, left your character by the roadside - you have now only foulmouthing left in your defence of your Raam-paduka masters. That is where hagiography ultimately leads to.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 00:33

devesh, you had better wait for an answer from the character-certificate-dene-or-lene-wallah who presumably believes Ramanujam went to Cambridge in 1914 to "lick the boots of masters".

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 00:42

brihaspati wrote:Since you are completely dishonest, and as I said, left your character by the roadside - you have now only foulmouthing left in your defence of your Raam-paduka masters. That is where hagiography ultimately leads to.

No, you are a bare-faced liar and a deeply insecure one.

When your % added up to 107% and I highlighted it, it was obviously a joke. Anyone honest would have laughed it off.

But, no, you tell a bare-faced lie when you say you meant to write "2.5% American". Look at the other magnitudes and the order in which you have stated them. You meant to write "25% American", and now you claim you wanted to write "2.5% American".

How shameful that you are an academic of some sort ... just plain shameful.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 00:55

eklavya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Since you are completely dishonest, and as I said, left your character by the roadside - you have now only foulmouthing left in your defence of your Raam-paduka masters. That is where hagiography ultimately leads to.
No, you are a bare-faced liar and a deeply insecure one.

When your % added up to 107% and I highlighted it, it was obviously a joke. Anyone honest would have laughed it off.

But, no, you tell a bare-faced lie when you say you meant to write "2.5% American". Look at the other magnitudes and the order in which you have stated them. You meant to write "25% American", and now you claim you wanted to write "2.5% American".

How shameful that you are an academic of some sort ... just plain shameful.

No, there is onlee 1 I had in mind. It was not in order of magnitude. In order of people I mostly collaborate/interact with. It was an error on my part, and you can abuse whatever you wish about my academic credentials or not.

But why not look up on th real issues - which are very much in the public domain - which you first started shouting about. You could also have reacted normally to the very general statement about education system - that reflects very British discussions on the same. You had to mock it, by slyly raising university ranking of "top" few. Have you been honest yourself in your agenda?

Your Nazi-academic like justfication of separating academics from "serving" perfidious and genocidal regime that has never apologized or acknowledged its role on Indians - is beyond shamefulness. Or maybe you realize it yourself, but complete shamelessness makes you pretend that you are not aware of it? Pity!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 01:16

There is a historical continuity and momentum - for universities to draw the best talents and funding, which in turn keeps them in a better position to draw talents and funding. Cambridge or Oxford or UCL will take a while to show the impact of what is happening down below. But the problems should be noted :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ities-2012

The California Institute of Technology has been named the best university in the world in the latest rankings by Times Higher Education, beating Oxford university to the first place.

The California Institute for Technology has been named the best university in the world for the second year running in the latest league table of the top universities. Published by Times Higher Education (THE), the latest rankings show that the University of Oxford has risen two places since 2011 to take joint second place alongside Stanford university. Harvard takes fourth place with the University of Cambridge taking seventh after dropping one place.

In total three UK universities make the top ten; Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial College London. The UK, however remains the second best represented country behind the US with seven top 50 universities and 31 in the full top 200. As last year, the US dominate with 76 institutions in the list - seven of these appearing in the top ten.

There have been some big falls for UK universities. The University of Bristol has dropped eight places to 74th position, Leeds has fallen to nine places to joint 142nd and the University of St Andrews is now at 108th after dropping from 85th place from the 2011 rankings. The chart above shows how many universities feature on the list by country, click on the bars to see the figures.

Aside from Oxford, only three other UK universities have gone up in the rankings. The London School of Economics has reached 39th place from 47th in 2011, the University of Edinburgh has climbed from 36th to 32nd and the University of York has risen from joint 121st to 103rd.

The rankings also highlight a trend in other university hotspots outside the UK and the US, whose institutions have both historically featured heavily in the list.

There are a total of 24 countries in the world top 200 with the highest ranked university outside of the UK and the US being ETH Zürich in Switzerland at 12th place. The Netherlands is the third best represented nation after the US and the UK and Japan has five institutions in the list - more than any other Asian country.

The rise of institutions in Asia is another key finding in the latest rankings. Phil Baty, editor of the Times Higher Education rankings, says:

Outside the golden triangle of London, Oxford and Cambridge, England's world-class universities face a collapse into global mediocrity. Huge investment in top research universities across Asia is starting to pay off.

China's Peking University and Tsinghua University have climbed up in the rankings - from 46th to joint 49th for Peking and from 71st to 52nd for Tsinghua. The National University of Singapore has now reached 29th place and Nanyang Technological University has gone from joint 169th to 86th.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Dec 2012 01:48

The Chinese have invested $1.5 billion to become the foremost sequencing monkeys on the planet. Of course Ll their machines are American. However with terabytes of data true insights Re not far off.

What is India doing?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 03:11

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 74749.html

Teachers are today accused of perpetrating a widespread abuse of the exams system by bumping up the marks of their pupils to get them top-grade GCSE passes. In a report, the exams watchdog Ofqual claims that a widespread loss of integrity in the profession has led many teachers to deliberately inflate coursework marks.

"We are shocked by what we have found," said Glenys Stacey, the chief executive of Ofqual. "The children have been let down. That won't do."

The allegations are made in the final report by the exams regulator into this summer's English GCSE marking fiasco, in which thousands of pupils got lower-than-expected grades after Ofqual tightened boundaries. The report insists the new boundaries were justified because teachers were artificially increasing their pupils' marks.

Ms Stacey said: "No teacher should be forced to choose between principles on the one hand and their students, school and career on the other."

The report acknowledges the pressures upon teachers to do well in league tables are intense. Schools are ranked on the percentage of pupils obtaining five A* to C grades including maths and English. Ofqual officials also suspect the over-marking is not confined to English – Ms Stacey predicted the pattern exposed in the report could be "directly related to the place of subjects in the accountability regime".

Last night there was anger from heads and teachers' leaders. Malcolm Trobe, deputy general secretary of the Association for School and College Leaders, said the claims were an "insult" to the profession.

Ofqual acknowledged English was in a unique position as one of only two subjects that pupils must get top grade passes in to register on the league tables. It was also easier for teachers to manipulate. Under the new arrangements for GCSE this year, 60 per cent of the marks are for controlled assessment – i,e. marked by the pupils' teachers after they have supervised coursework – as opposed to 40 per cent previously.

In addition, schools can choose for their pupils to take controlled assessments at the end of their course when they already know the written exam marks and how many coursework marks pupils need to gain a C grade.

Ms Stacey revealed one teacher who needed 25 marks to obtain a C grade pass for a pupil had said, "Obviously we marked it 25. If it had been 28, it would have been 28".

Ofqual and two exam boards (Edexcel and the Assessment and Qualifications Alliance) are currently facing a legal challenge from headteachers, pupils and local authorities on the grounds that raising grade boundaries in June was unfair to pupils as they missed out on sixth-form or college places as a result.

Christine Blower, general secretary of the National Union of Teachers, said: "Ofqual seem to be shifting the blame whilst at the same time exposing the nonsense of targets.

"Young people were let down. The solution is to re-grade the exams of young people."

Mr Trobe added: "For Ofqual to suggest that teachers and schools are to blame is outrageous... The fact remains that different standards were applied to the exams in June and January and this is blatantly wrong."

A spokeswoman for the Department for Education said: "We are going to review the accountability measures."

'We have to cheat': Aa teacher confesses

Extracts from an email in the report:

"I've just read my school email... including the instruction 'all folders (pupils' assignments) must be at or above target grade'...

When I've dared to suggest that the controlled assessments (CAs) should be done in exam conditions and that lots of schools are doing that, I'm told that is rubbish... and that we have to cheat because other schools will be doing so and we cannot afford to let our results slip at all.

I'm sorry but that is wrong and the demand to have all folders at or above target grade is unrealistic... I thank God I am taking early retirement at the end of this year."

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 Dec 2012 03:20

eklavya wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:^^No Indians in Briturd academia, Bji? Just curious only.

Hari, if we're talking about one of the best known mathematics departments in the UK, here is the staff list/quote]

It i strange that Applied Math is clubbed with Theoretical Physics. Typically in US AM research is distributed among the departments in Colleges of Engineering, College of Commerce, and LAS (which includes Physics, Chemistry, and Computational Biology).

If one takes the literal definition of AM (i.e. solution of PDEs mostly numerical but some symbolic computations thrown in) the area was arguably dominated by US followed by Russians and French, German, UK, in some partial order with rest of the countries in the lattice. Today, US is still the supremum in the lattice. Somebody can chime in with the number of Indians in this area - I don't have any ready figures off the top of my head.

One has to expand the definition of AM as well as Pure Math to include CS. Some parts of CS are closely linked to Math. Logic, eg. type theory and category theory have very deep connections and almost all of applied math is solving systems linear equations (eg. Numerical solution to PDEs, optimization, Crypoanaylsis) which is firmly in the realm of CS. My constructivistic bias (being a CS guy) makes me arghue that there should be little differentiation between Pure and Applied Mathematics as Computability Theory (which is the theoretical foundation of the whole of CS) deals with all mathematical objects that are constructible. These objects are an important subset of the all the mathematical objects that are dealt with in Pure Mathematics.

One would find a large number PIOs in Theoretical CS. To answer Devesh garu - yes there are a large number of Indians who have advanced the state of the art in several areas of Theoretical CS - algorithms of all kinds, Kolmogorov Complexity, Coding, Probabilistic Analysis which are recent subjects - not so much during the early years (i.e. 1930-1960 time frame). But now a days a lot of PIOs seem to be moving away from these areas to go into more applied areas. This has the some thing to do with "money worship" as Sanjaykumar ji put it.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 Dec 2012 03:30

Bji and Ekalavya ji, I do confess that I had only Oxbridge and ICL when I said "top notch". No idea about the rest in UK. Just an aside.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 04:18

matrimc ji,
I have explained that one of the motivations for Indians is definitely to have preference for USA compare dto UK. Also there are a lot less opportunities for employment afterwards.

As for maths, most departments underwent reorganization - to form a school like structure in UK - with applied maths, "pure" pure maths (primarily number theory - computational algebra, especially group theoretic stuff), and statistics.Now problem is that increasingly subthemes have to borrow from other disciplines. For example where would you classify random matrix domain? From Zeta function and number theory to probability to mathematical statistics. Or quantum probability with noncomm algebra. Modular forms, theta series, information theory, coding and cryptanalysis.

This makes for blurring of more traditional boundaries.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 Dec 2012 05:27

There was no differentiation in the beginning and then there was a split between pure and applied (with foundations becoming the purest of the pure) and now we are coming back full circle due to emerging connections between apparently dissimilar fields, eg. Statistical Mechanics and Information Theory. The blurring is accelerating due to computers. It is eminently arguable that it is impossible to do science (i.e., Physical, Biological, and Humanities) without the computers which turn pure mathematics into applied mathematics. What one can think up can be turned into a computer program, a very constructionist point of view, of course.

Bji, interesting you mentioned Random Matrices - there is a group at MIT doing just that and one of the main investigators is an Indian - FWIW.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 07:33

^^^IED.

But seriously, yes - a lot of the work even in classical algebra is turning seriously computational. A lot of current work cant even happen without sage/maxima/magma. Also, in another direction, just think of the algebraic description of virtual worlds.

India can perhaps learn a lot from the UK experience. It will never be able to break into the charmed "top" tier circle, since that will need an industrial, political and military clout we are far from reaching yet. Historical factors will need to even out and that needs time. But we cannot give up on incentivizing talent, cannot allow worship of mediocrety in the name of social justice or positive discrimination. That is where UK is faltering.

India should also draw talent from elsewhere, and allow them to work in academics and create startups in India. Political discomfort perhaps -but its a model that is crucial for quick innovation and growth.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Dec 2012 07:38

Wow, nice discussion, actually informative...that too in the briturd dhaga...whuddathunkit only (nice minus ek-luv-ya's arbit bitterness... where's the luv-ya, ekluvya? ):p

Must admit, in moi own small way, am exploring some machine learning apps to model systems that turn on human eccentricities onlee..."sigh".... uneasy job. namo-namaha to the seers here with insight into stuff from foundational math to theoretical CS.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 08:06

Hari Seldon wrote:Wow, nice discussion, actually informative...that too in the briturd dhaga...whuddathunkit only (nice minus ek-luv-ya's arbit bitterness... where's the luv-ya, ekluvya? ):p

Must admit, in moi own small way, am exploring some machine learning apps to model systems that turn on human eccentricities onlee..."sigh".... uneasy job. namo-namaha to the seers here with insight into stuff from foundational math to theoretical CS.

Hari ji,
blessed be thou - if thou startest a thread in GDF machine learning/(Drop ANN's off, they were a big hype 5 years ago, but havent kept their promise)/and related stuff - with connections to modeling human behaviour - you can count me in. If you are into clouds/sentiment analysis/ goodie!.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Dec 2012 08:19

If you guys promise to write your posts in human language commoners like me can understand them. How long you want to hold knowledge from us, backward castes?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2012 08:19

Where do we stand in the rankings? Are we moving up or down?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 09:27

^^^^^
There are some organisations (and the EIU is credible) that compile these league tables of "global education ranking". As per the latest league table from the EIU, among the "english speaking countries", Hong Kong is 3rd, Singapore is 5th, the UK is 6th, New Zealand is 8th, Canada is 10th, Ireland is 11th, Australia is 13th, and the US is 17th.

UK education sixth in global ranking

There are 920 comments as well for those with time!

Here is the report:

http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/index/index-ranking

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 09:58

Hari Seldon wrote:Wow, nice discussion, actually informative...that too in the briturd dhaga...whuddathunkit only (nice minus ek-luv-ya's arbit bitterness... where's the luv-ya, ekluvya? ):p

Hari, the independently complied international league tables tell us that notwithstanding the huge amount of criticism it receives (most of it from within the UK), the UK education system is actually rather good. When B-Potty finds that the facts don't mesh with his prejudices, he resorts to hurling insults regarding the personal motives of those who highlights the facts.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 23 Dec 2012 10:07

Philip wrote:Where do we stand in the rankings? Are we moving up or down?

In terms of research output, ie publications and papers in internationally tracked journals - India is probably somewhere near #7 or so now...Graph is definitely moving upwards, especially over the last decade.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 10:14

brihaspati wrote: No, there is onlee 1 I had in mind. It was not in order of magnitude. In order of people I mostly collaborate/interact with. It was an error on my part, and you can abuse whatever you wish about my academic credentials or not.

Still clutching at straws. All 2.5 of them .... how shameful.

brihaspati wrote: But why not look up on th real issues - which are very much in the public domain - which you first started shouting about. You could also have reacted normally to the very general statement about education system - that reflects very British discussions on the same. You had to mock it, by slyly raising university ranking of "top" few. Have you been honest yourself in your agenda?

The independent league tables tell a different story to your prejudice. Since you can't argue with the facts, you can only resort to attacking the motives of the person who highlighted the facts. That is exactly what a Nazi would do ..

brihaspati wrote: Your Nazi-academic like justfication of separating academics from "serving" perfidious and genocidal regime that has never apologized or acknowledged its role on Indians - is beyond shamefulness. Or maybe you realize it yourself, but complete shamelessness makes you pretend that you are not aware of it? Pity!

The vast majority of people in India, myself included, don't consider Radhakrishnan, Ramanujam and others like them who held academic posts in British universities before Independence as collaborators. Radhakrishnan and Ramanujam are quite rightly hugely respected in India.

Your pathetic lies and prejudices are beyond contempt.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 12:22

brihaspati wrote:The British educational system is in shambles. There are features of the US system that allows it to be immensely flexible and do ultimately what it was originally designed for - the 19th century copying of the German liberal university education model geared towards producing initiators and entrepreneurs. For various reasons and experiments with social engineering, the British system has degraded into a far more rigid dystem.

The real basic science research that ha slong term consequences for overall economy and growth - is shrinking in UK. I can tell you with some degree of certainty that several cutting edge areas in mathematics - is actually dominated more by Germans, Russians and Americans than the British. As for "philosophy", the less said the better. I can bring up a flurry of examples that will be most unpalatable.

Brihaspati, your original post that I responded to (reproduced above) was very much about the University system in the UK. So I posted the international University league table. In response, you came up with "hagiographer", "bootlicker", "completely dishonest", "sly" and what not besides.

Ajatshatru: thank you. I did not expect that posting a university league table would evoke such a furious response. All a bit ridiculous really.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 12:39

matrimc wrote:Bji and Ekalavya ji, I do confess that I had only Oxbridge and ICL when I said "top notch". No idea about the rest in UK. Just an aside.

LSE, Warwick, Bristol and Edinburgh also have a great reputation.

Informal top group: Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, UCL, LSE, King's, Warwick, Edinburgh, Bristol, Durham.

Schools like SOAS, UMIST, etc. have a reputation for specific subjects and disciplines.

Anyway, here's a recent league table for the Russell Group universities (the top UK universities):

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... oup&v=wide

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 23 Dec 2012 12:44

yup, that's why I said we should not get so emotional about protecting the vaunted reputation of the Brits. I still don't understand why Eklavya had to go to such an extent to mock fellow BRF'ites. he was the one who started it, not Bji or anyone else. he was the one making patronizing comments about "oh, I forget, this is the Brit bashing forum", etc.

we might not like it, but we do have a dark past. a past where lakhs and millions of our ancestors were hand-in-glove with the looters and rapists of our land. under various excuses, they were happy to collaborate with foreign enemies to protect their hides. that is our history. and we cannot escape it. feeling such intense sensitivity to that obvious truth is pointless. if one has to feel such deep sensitivity, then it should be felt with shame and humility that our genes were passed down from such wretched souls. and this shame should constantly remind us of our future responsibilities.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 23 Dec 2012 12:46

eklavya wrote:
matrimc wrote:Bji and Ekalavya ji, I do confess that I had only Oxbridge and ICL when I said "top notch". No idea about the rest in UK. Just an aside.
LSE, Warwick, Bristol and Edinburgh also have a great reputation.

Informal top group: Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, UCL, LSE, King's, Warwick, Edinburgh, Bristol, Durham.

Schools like SOAS, UMIST, etc. have a reputation for specific subjects and disciplines.

Anyway, here's a recent league table for the Russell Group universities (the top UK universities):

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... oup&v=wide

the domestic UK grading doesn't help judge their international competitiveness. either way, I don't see why you have to go to such lengths to guard and protect the Brit reputation. what goes your father's if BRF collectively decides to declare a National British Bashing Day? I mean, seriously, why are you so intent on proving them oh-so-great?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 23 Dec 2012 13:16

eklavya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:The British educational system is in shambles. There are features of the US system that allows it to be immensely flexible and do ultimately what it was originally designed for - the 19th century copying of the German liberal university education model geared towards producing initiators and entrepreneurs. For various reasons and experiments with social engineering, the British system has degraded into a far more rigid dystem.

The real basic science research that ha slong term consequences for overall economy and growth - is shrinking in UK. I can tell you with some degree of certainty that several cutting edge areas in mathematics - is actually dominated more by Germans, Russians and Americans than the British. As for "philosophy", the less said the better. I can bring up a flurry of examples that will be most unpalatable.
Brihaspati, your original post that I responded to (reproduced above) was very much about the University system in the UK. So I posted the international University league table. In response, you came up with "hagiographer", "bootlicker", "completely dishonest", "sly" and what not besides.

It seems to me that Bji was talking about "Brit educational system". The universities were mentioned in relation to the US system and not brit system. Bji opined that Brit system, in general, is in shambles. I just checked and he clarified explicitly that he did not refer to universities only when he talked about 'brit educational system being in shambles'. Bji was responding to the following post:

matrimc wrote:^^^ I hope the next gen British lose their superciliousness. In general their scientists, mathematicians, philosophers are top-notch. Their text books are miles ahead in clarity vis-a-vis US and Indian ones. The people I have come in contact with professionally are nice also. I am not sure where the real problem lies - with British elite, Indian polticos (AKA elite) or both.

And his response was in that context. You took university part ignoring the context and posted a reply. BTW, your own tone in this discussion has been one of mocking, so when you get a reply in same tone, then why complaint?

But, there is another thing.

brihaspati wrote:Yes of course, top uni's - top unis! What a great job the Brit masters have done. They can produce hagiographers long after they are gone from their ex-colonies willing to do their bit in brushing up and defending their ex-master's image..

In one such Brit uni [will not name the one] considered "top", where I visit regularly - the entire maths group is almost 60% German, 25% American, 20% Russian, 2% Italian. Yeah the senior head's of the three subgroups are predominantly Brit - with one non-Brit among them. Postgrads - roughly 75% non-Brits. In due time - as retirements go on - the heads will also change "origins".

And by education system is meant the whole of the education system and not the "unis'" onlee.

It seems to me that you found the red part as a personal insult. To me, Bji is making a general point that these unis have played a great role in shaping many individuals who adore the brits and spring to their defense. That comment was not necessarily aimed at you. But, you took it as an insult.

You picked up on the stats given by Bji and insinuated that he is pretending to be a 'know-all'. He replied to you in same tone and tenor. I don't understand how you are putting all the blame on Bji and trying to act all innocent?!

eklavya wrote: Ajatshatru: thank you. I did not expect that posting a university league table would evoke such a furious response. All a bit ridiculous really.

Frankly, it seems to me that Bji was the milder and more civil in this interaction. You actually used words like 'bare-faced liar', 'deeply insecure one', and 'brihasPotty-mullah'. Infact, many have already commented on the bitter hatred aimed at Bji and for what? Defense of brits?!

----

Ajatshatru wrote:A quick note:

I see nothing wrong in Eklaya’s original post

almost 60% + 25% + 20% + 2% = almost 107%
Also, whether I agree with the contents of some of his recent posts, I have not seen Eklavya going to the extent of pointing a finger at someone’s character, as a retaliatory measure, when replying to a fellow BRFites post.

Generally speaking, most of us “aam junta”, I think, would like to believe ourselves as mere mortals and don’t put ourselves on some sort of a pedestal thinking of ourselves as some sort of a Guru who “knows it all” and reacting with disdain/fury aiming straight for the jugular i.e. hitting out at a person’s character, as a retaliatory measure, at the thought of a person even showing the temerity to challenge our views, perhaps thinking "how dare he, as I am so perfect in every way"….

FWIW, my humble suggestion would be to confine/focus on the specific matter in issue under discussion without going to the extent of “but you have left behind your entire character, if you ever had any”. B’ji, this was totally uncalled for and may tantamount to hitting below the belt….

You missed the context. And I have reservations on your comprehension skills as well. This is not the first time though.

These were my original posts:

johneeG wrote:I feel sorry for these brits. They have allowed all sorts of scums into their country and some of them are quite brazen.

I think such diatribes will be more and more frequent because the white brits feel threatened demographically, culturally, economically, and politically. They feel as if they are losing hold of their country.

johneeG wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:"They have allowed all sorts of scums into their country and some of them are quite brazen."

Probably, but that poor Black lady the white Paki was abusing, did not look like one of the scum.
Sure. All I am saying is that someone in their position would feel that all 'immigrants' are a threat to them. They would feel that they are losing grip of their nation and others are occupying it. To an extent, they are justified in feeling so.

Of course, many may find fault with such feelings. Others may object to the way it was expressed.

To me, there seems to be an underlying simmering tension in brit society which will find expression more and more. Some political parties will position themselves to pander to this vote bank.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=480

And what was your reply? A legal threat!!

Any with an iota of brains could see that I was commenting on the society and not the incident. But, you concluded that I was sympathizing with some racist brit woman, so I must be supporting and sharing her racism, so you proceeded to issue a legal threat to me. And now you are the one giving lectures on how others are supposed to respond!

Ajatshatru wrote:johneeG wrote:
I feel sorry for these brits. They have allowed all sorts of scums into their country and some of them are quite brazen.

I think such diatribes will be more and more frequent because the white brits feel threatened demographically, culturally, economically, and politically. They feel as if they are losing hold of their country.
And I am sorry to hear you feel this way and also to hear such a hateful rant which is seen more associated with, perhaps, a closet member of the BNP. By stating 'they have allowed all sorts of scums into their country', your remark is, perhaps, directed at ALL non-whites living in the UK.

To me, there seems to be an underlying simmering tension in brit society which will find expression more and more

If I were you (and esp. if based in the UK), I would be a bit careful as such sentiments (even when expressed on the internet) may be in violation of the 'Equality Act 2010', 'Race Relations Act 1976' etc.

Incidentally, when you say 'I feel sorry for these Brits', it's clear your remark is seen, in this particular context, as your feeling sorry for the woman associated with the 'tram racist rant' and you further go on to say 'They have allowed all sorts of scum into their country' and later even state '....which will find expression more and more'. Trust me, even BR forum would not be seen defending any member who is openly seen espousing such controversial sentiments on this forum.

Given this rant, I don't think you are an ideal person to lecture others on reasonable response...

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 23 Dec 2012 13:50

devesh wrote:what goes your father's if BRF collectively decides to declare a National British Bashing Day?

Because the title of this thread is "Indo-UK News & Discussion", not "National British Bashing Thread". I, for one, am tired of all the bellyaching

posts on this thread.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 23 Dec 2012 14:07

ArmenT wrote:Because the title of this thread is "Indo-UK News & Discussion", not "National British Bashing Thread". I, for one, am tired of all the bellyaching posts on this thread.

The

done by British press about India can only lead to it's bashing so nothing is out of place in this thread as far as I am concerned.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Dec 2012 15:25

Wonderful. This is why admins keep saying make your points without attributing labels to other posters and without name calling, patriotism gauging, questioning motives and so on... If you have a point to make, make it without that.

Spare everyone the ridiculous spectacle of wrapping flags around yourselves to gain legitimacy or credibility on brf or with lurkers.

For all I know as an admin, half the chaps with the super-patriotic tendencies maybe paki poseurs on proxies. The other half may be commies and the third half brfites trying to figure out what the fu(k is going on. Control yourselves before we have to.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 16:51

devesh wrote:
the domestic UK grading doesn't help judge their international competitiveness.

hi devesh, I posted the UK league table in response to matrimc's remark about the standing of the other UK universities. Was providing some information about the domestic scene in the UK, not providing an international comparison. For the international league table, please refer to my post on page 53 which showed that 4 of the top 6 universities are UK based.

devesh wrote: either way, I don't see why you have to go to such lengths to guard and protect the Brit reputation.

What lengths. I posted a couple of league tables, and got labeled by B as a "hagiographer" who is serving the British "master". The rest of the hungama happened because B was trying to label me as a "bootlicker", etc etc

devesh wrote: what goes your father's if BRF collectively decides to declare a National British Bashing Day?

Nothing. Do what you like. I hope you don't mind if I don't join in? I have no misconceptions whatsoever about the evils of colonialism, but I am not into mob-violence, except a bit on the China thread, where there was an industrial scale riot the last few weeks.

devesh wrote: I mean, seriously, why are you so intent on proving them oh-so-great?

By posting a couple of league tables? Chodo yaar ... itna bhee sensitive nahin hona chahiye.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 17:30

johneeG wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Yes of course, top uni's - top unis! What a great job the Brit masters have done. They can produce hagiographers long after they are gone from their ex-colonies willing to do their bit in brushing up and defending their ex-master's image..
It seems to me that you found the red part as a personal insult. To me, Bji is making a general point that these unis have played a great role in shaping many individuals who adore the brits and spring to their defense. That comment was not necessarily aimed at you. But, you took it as an insult.

johneeG, B will confirm/deny whether the red part was aimed at me as a personal insult. I certainly took it as an unwarranted personally directed insult.

In any case, why should anyone be accused of having allegiance to or adoration of a foreign country just because they post a link to a league table that makes someone's half-baked arguments about the state of a foreign country's education system look a little bit silly? Anyone should be able to post an independent league table without inviting personal insults and accusations about where their loyalties lie. Nobody should have to prove their Indian nationalist credentials by agreeing with everything disparaging that is written about the British and other foreigners, whether it is true or not.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Dec 2012 17:57

Pranav wrote:Family suspects 'foul play' in Indian nurse's death in UK - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 574008.cms

"Jacintha's grieving family is anxiously waiting for the postmortem report and the outcome of the inquest by the Scotland Yard, because they suspect foul play in her tragic death as she was a strong woman and would not have resorted to such an act (suicide)," her family's close friend Ivan D'Souza told IANS Tuesday from Mangalore, about 350 km from Bangalore. ...

The family members are also mulling over seeking a second postmortem in India if they and Benedict are not satisfied with the inquest outcome in London.

The Karnataka based Deccan Herald newspaper reports that nurse Jacintha Saldhana had attempted suicide on two prior occasions, once on December 30, 2011, and the second time on January 8, 2012. :

No prank this! Jacintha had suicidal tendencies

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 21:34

ekalavya ji,
your reply to my "original" post, started the mocking game. You did not confine yourself to mere statement of facts in response to my post.

As for Radhakrishnan, or Ramanujan, I have neither abused them, nor criticized them. I have not eulogized them - as I felt no relevance, and eulogizing them was not relevant for any posts that I can recall. But I have always made my position clear that all those who served the british government, in any capacity during the pre-Independence days - without apologizing to the country afterwards for it, or recanting their past service - in my estimation stand lower than those who did. If for you, not being hagiographic or eulogizing is equal to abusing - then you have a very twisted way of interpreting another's idea of self-respect.

You mock others with complete non-chalance and claim immunity yourself or for your chosen icons? You mocked Starkey! Does he deserve your mockery? He is a qualified academic in his own right, and a very loyal British to boot. You never responded to what he or Katherine - whom I quoted - said. You ignore every post on such sources from within the british spectrum, and claim that you are only being fair on the British image?

To others :

When we talk of "educational system", we do not simply mean the university system, and neither do we exclude the universities. The reason I compared the US and UK university philosophies after mentioining about the "education system" is because, what happens at the university levels has an impact down the line on the school system. The problem is that changes within the uni level is often masked in terms of performance because the universities can draw in talent from abroad - and to a large extent the UK "top" universities are doing exactly that.

Anyone aware of the education debate within UK should have been aware of the severe domestic criticism of the state of school education as well as university admissions from British students.

As for all those who are obsessed with "league tables" and somehow are claiming as if I never brought up any "facts", I have put up several sources - one of which is the Times higher education report of global rankings. I have also quoted exactly the opinion of one of the key persons involved in making that report as to what is feared for the future of UK uni's. Another report one can look up is the QS global survey. Each of these league tables are motivated by different sets of criteria, and none of these are sacrosanct.

What leads to bashing, is the complete ignoring of such pointers - and pretending that no "facts" are coming from the other side of the debate, and all "facts" are monopolized by one side.

I have also posted specifically on the "grade inflation" scandal within the school education system in UK. I have posted on the "inequality" dynamic and what its impact is seen as by the British themselves.

If you choose to ignore all that I have posted and quoted from sources that are very much within the British public debate on the issue, then I have not much to say. But in that case you are choosing to ignore the reality of the debate in favour of a certain image upliftment exercise on behalf of supposed British supremacy and monopoly over education.

Ajatashatru ji,
my response about character came because my personal explanation about my personal choices in employment or turning down offers to work in certain setups was rudely mocked. What was being mocked was one person's mere statement of facts about his respect for his ancestral wish/will that no descendant should serve the British crown.

I reacted and called out such mocking as "leaving all character behind", as an Indian I would expect at least respect for such a personal choice - from another Indian, and not mocking - given that the British crown is yet to apologize for all the murders, rapes, genocides, looting that went on in its name.

You think it is an indefensible position on my part and a sign of ego onlee? Even my explanation came about trying to explain that I never took money from or have British "masters". I was being accused of not wanting offend my "masters" or employers.

PS: I have still not deparsed or twisted ekalavya ji's handle on the forum. I still refer to him as ekalavya ji. In that I have failed to copy the British method of foulmouthing the "other" person or his name!

jambudvipa · Post by **jambudvipa** » 23 Dec 2012 22:32

Another occasion and the hidden brown sepoys come out in full force.No discussion of the current relations with the UK is complete wihout a proper understanding of the "special relationship" they have with us.

Since Brihaspati ji brought up the standards of falling education in UK,it brought to my mind events from nearly 180 years ago when our education system was systematically being strangled and destroyed root and branch.In a way that by 1840's it had more of less ceased to exist.All those brown parrots singing her majestys tune could do well to read Dharampal's book " The Beautiful Tree" to see what was lost and how rootless we have become.But we should never fail to thank the British for providing us with "modern education".

here are some extracts from the book :

Starting out with a quote from MG,the favourite of all seculars:

...That does not finish the picture. We have the education of this future state. I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was fifty or a hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the British administrators, when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that, and the beautiful tree perished. The village schools were not good enough for the British administrator, so he came out with his programme. Every school must have so much paraphernalia, building, and so forth. Well, there were no such schools at all. There are statistics left by a British administrator which show that, in places where they have carried out a survey, ancient schools have gone by the board, because there was no recognition for these schools, and the schools established after the European pattern were too expensive for the people, and therefore they could not possibly overtake the thing. I defy anybody to fulfill a programme of compulsory primary education of these masses inside of a century. This very poor country of mine is ill able to sustain such an expensive method of education. Our state would revive the old village schoolmaster and dot every village with a school both for boys and girls. (MAHATMA GANDHI AT CHATHAM HOUSE, LONDON, OCTOBER 20, 1931)

MALABAR BIBLIOGRAPHY, THEIR PROGRESS IN LITERATURE, EDUCATION—SYSTEM BORROWED FROM IT. ACCOUNT OF IT FROM PETER DELLA VALLE. CUSTOM IN MALABAR TO TRANSLATE WORKS FROM SANSCRIT, MANNER OF WRITING OR ENGRAVING ON LEAVES. QUOTATION FROM LUSIAD.

The learning of the Malabar is probably more limited than that of the more central people of India; but they are not inattentive to the cultivation of letters. They are particularly anxious and attentive to instruct their children to read and to write. Education with them is an early and an important business in every family. Many of their women are taught to read and write. The Bramans are generally the school masters, but any of the respectable castes may, and often do, practice teaching. The children are instructed without violence, and by a process peculiarly simple. It is the same system which has caused so much heat and controversy, as to the inventors of it, in this country, and the merit of which was due to neither of the claimants.1 The system was borrowed from the Bramans and brought from India to Europe. It has been made the foundation of National schools in every enlightened country. Some gratitude is due to a people from whom we have learnt to diffuse among the lower ranks of society instruction by one of the most unerring and economical methods which has ever been invented.

FRA PAOLINO DA BARTOLOMEO ON EDUCATION OF CHILDREN IN INDIA (Born at Hos, Austria, 1748, as John Phillip Wesdin; in India 1776 to 1789. From Voyages to the East Indies (Published, Rome, 1796, Berlin, 1798, England, 1880), Book II: Birth and Education of Children (pp.253-268))

All the Grecian historians represent the Indians as people of greater size, and much more robust than those of other nations. Though this is not true in general, it is certain that the purity of the air, wholesome nourishment, temperance and education contribute, in an uncommon degree, to the bodily conformation, and to the increase of these people.

Having entrusted to an Indian artist a lamp made in Portugal, the workmanship of which was exceedingly pretty, some days after he brought me another so like my own that I could scarcely distinguish any difference. It, however, cannot be denied, that the arts and sciences in India have greatly declined since foreign conquerors expelled the native kings; by which several provinces have been laid entirely waste, and the castes confounded with each other. Before that period, the different kingdoms were in a flourishing condition; the laws were respected, and justice and civil order prevailed; but, unfortunately, at present everything in many of the provinces must give way to absolute authority and despotic sway.

From J.Campbell ( the collector of Bellary ) report,1823 CE :

I am sorry to state that this is ascribable to the gradual but general impoverishment of the country. The means of the manufacturing classes have been, of late years greatly dimin-ished, by the introduction of our own European manufactures, in lieu of the Indian cotton fabrics. The removal of many of our troops, from our own territories, to the distant frontiers of our newly subsidized allies, has also, of late years, affected the demand for grain, the transfer of the capital of the country, from the Native Governments, and their Officers, who liberally expended it in India, to Europeans, restricted by law from em-ploying it even temporarily in India, and daily draining it from the land, has likewise tended to this effect which has not been alleviated by a less rigid enforcement of the revenue due to the state. The greater part of the middling and lower classes of the people are now unable to defray the expenses incident upon the education of their offspring, while their necessities require the assistance of their children as soon as their tender limbs are capable of the smallest labour. 19. It cannot have escaped the Government that of nearly a million of souls in this district, not 7,000 are now at school; a proportion which exhibits but too strongly the result above stated. In many villages, where formerly there were schools, there are now none; and in many others, where there were large schools, now only a few of the children of the most opulent are taught, others being unable, from poverty, to attend or to pay what is demanded. 20. Such is the state, in this district, of the various schools, in which reading writing, and arithmetic, are taught in the vernacular dialects of the country, as has been always usual in India, by teachers who are paid by their scholars. The higher branches of learning on the contrary, have always, in this

country, been taught in Sanscrit; and it has ever in India, been deemed below the dignity of science, for her professors to barter it for hire. Lessons in Theology, Astronomy, Logic and Law, continue to be given gratuitously as of old, by a few learned Bramins, to some of their disciples. But learning, though, it may proudly decline to sell its stores, has never flourished in any country, except under the encouragement of the ruling power and the countenance and support, once given to science in this part of India, have long been withheld. 21. Of the 533 institutions for education, now existing in this district, I am ashamed to say not one now derives any support from the state.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 Dec 2012 22:50

brihaspati wrote:ekalavya ji,
your reply to my "original" post, started the mocking game. You did not confine yourself to mere statement of facts in response to my post.

My comment (reproduced verbatim below) was [intended to be] funny, but it did not attack you personally in any way whatsoever, unless you interpret any refutation of your arguments as a personal attack / personal mockery.

In response to my humour (which is allowed in polite debate) which clearly targeted your statement and not your person, I got labelled as a "hagiographer" and serving "ex-masters".

My comment must have had the intended effect (of somewhat undermining your statement), as I think otherwise you would not have started the vicious name-calling.

eklavya wrote:
brihaspati wrote: The British educational system is in shambles.
Complete shambles, as this league table will illustrate. Only 4 out of the top 6 universities globally are British. Shame shame ...

http://www.topuniversities.com/universi ... kings/2012

We really ought to be able to talk about modern Britain on this thread without bringing in colonialism and whether some chap is a bootlicker or such like. We owe it to ourselves and to everybody else on the forum.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Dec 2012 22:58

"Hidden brown sepoys"

And what are you "jambudvipa" a paki pretending to be Indian to sow more trouble in a thread already gone to hell?

Prepare to be banned if you continue ...

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 23 Dec 2012 23:08

All of Dharampal's books, including The Beautiful Tree, can be downloaded from here.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Dec 2012 23:29

ekalavya ji,
I should have learned to expect by this time that you will select "facts" to try to disprove anything that seems to show any aspect of British life in negative light. Yes, I perhaps overreacted to your jumping in with what seemed "funny" to you, but which I saw as a sign again of that general tendency which I feel is a legacy of a certain Anglophile culture imposed by educational forms - to somehow feel compelled to come to the defense of the British image.

When using hagiography etc, I did not mean you in particular - but that general educational ambience that still seems to cast a shadow over us, and which controls how we choose to react to "negative" criticisms of the "british".

What should be noted is that - the only clearly negative assessment I made, "in shambles", need not have been taken as a criticism or bashing of the "British". Many British I know personally as friends, even from the peerage level, have used the word [if you caught it - it is a word more likely to be used in a certain social educational circle in UK than in others] in private addas. We often criticize our own systemic aspects in India - it does not necessarily mean hatred for India.

Since then you have simply chosen to deride Starkey [why really? he is a qualified academic in his own domain!] without giving due diligence to his remarks or observations. Same has been your silence to Katherine's observations. You chose to ignore the Times Higher education gloabl "league table" I quoted and one of its key figure's personal comments about the state and future of the uni level. You never responded to the report on grade inflation and "inequality" related aspects for the schools. These are current issues - aren't they? There is even a struggle within the gov and institutional circles about restoring some of the classical means of imposing "discipline" and "authority" - freeing some of the restrictions on "physical contact" and even stressing gender incorrect memes of having more male teachers etc.

In all this if you choose to onlee focus on what seems or can be put up as "good", it implies you have taken my "shambles" comment as an attack on British image, and felt the need to defend it by a selective quote.

Anyway, I think I have given a number of issues, quite current at that, to be discussed or explored if posters like to. I have already mentioned that there are lessons to learn from the UK experience, and that we should not walk along the way that the British have been walking - in the school system and following on.

I understand your reactions and you should understand mine. Let us rest it at that. Choosing to onlee look at the apparent positive sof the British, or covering up for their shortcomings, is not going to help us - because it may lull us into copying the Brits as the thing to do, and in the process end up at the wrong turning.