Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Aug 2014 19:52

With the Finmecc/AW scandal and partial ban,its chances are bleak.I thought that the EC-225 was also in the running.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Aug 2014 20:20

Keep the NH out because of an Italian scandal? Hope not.

However, any idea if there is something like the following for the NH?

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 31 Aug 2014 18:53

The NH-90 has two variants, NFH: NATO Frigate Helicopter and TTH: Tactical Transport Helicopter. More importantly, it is a modern helicopter, having been produced in 2007 vs 1984 for the US. HAL also is very familiar with Eurocopter technology, having used all of those components before. For ToT and familiarity reasons, the NH90 makes sense as the model to go with.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 31 Aug 2014 19:09

Tata is already making cabins and structures for Sikorsky. They could well have the upper hand in claiming for offsets.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Sep 2014 02:54

I read quiet a bit about the NH90 thats not positive in the past few months.

http://www.defensie.nl/english/latest/n ... elicopters

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairmo/20120910.aspx

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Sep 2014 03:54

It happens, teething problems. Newer products take longer time to work their way through problems. The US helo should have most, if not all, problems worked out. Starting in 1970s, the latest version that IN cna absorb is from 2007(?). And, I am sure the US company would be in a far better position to roll out a -IN version that is specific for the IN - experience counts.

But, if the IN is willing to walk through issues that *may* arise with the NH, then that should work out too. But, I would expect that path to be much longer and therefore with a smaller RoI.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Sep 2014 13:11

Some P-17A concepts floating around the net:

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Sep 2014 13:33

S-70I will win this deal, it apparently out performed the NH during trials and it will be cheaper as well.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 01 Sep 2014 15:22

Sikorsky's offsets are very much trivial and irrelevant. No US company has ever transferred any tech of any kind to Bharat. And they will not even if the universe itself were to end tomorrow. That makes the entire idea of Sikorsky bidding in the contract foolish.

Eurocopter has supplied the Shakti engine and most other components for Dhruv, LCH, Rudra etc. We are already on the EU horse for helicopter technology, and are best offgoing for more of the same. It makes no sense to thrown any already skilled technicians and infrastructure. Hal and Eurocopter have an excellent relationship, and the only use for Sikorsky is to threaten the EU into giving us a better deal.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Sep 2014 16:14

Kind if silly to be looking for TOT on a deal for 16 helos, if the deal expands to 75 more then we can consider the S-70I and it will be assembled locally in Inida. S-70I is quite simply better because the NH-90 cannot match its relibility, being a US bird, the price bid will certainly be cheaper.

Strange you dismiss NH-90 reliability issues as teething problems while it has already been given FOC and you quite clearly are very quick to say plenty of things about the F-35's theeting problems, an aircraft which still hasn't recieved FOC.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 Sep 2014 16:16

Rien germany - uk alongwith whole of western europe are tottering, they are standing on moth eaten legs can fall anytime. Best is to buy and manufacture only their successful products like Rafale or Dolphine U boats etc.

As on the other page its mentioned how only 8 out of germany's 109 Ef2ks are functional rest are hangar queens, same seems to be the case with NH-90 helicopter.

We should aim to buy and manufacture the successful platforms from raw material to finished products, so they become ours. Like Jaguar, we manufactured it, corrected/improved its hydraulic systems and upgrade ourselves.

We could've done same to M2k also if manufactured here in 100 numbers like jaguars.

In case NH 90 problems continue then we should go for sikorsky, I'd even prefer 13 ton Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallion as by next decade our navy's needs will grow much more!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Sep 2014 16:51

CH53 can be housed in only LHD type ships even in the USN. no DDG has ever operated so large a helo afaik, but not that it cannot be done if there is considerable value add. the JMSDF Haruna class was a peculiar design that operates 3 SH60 helis given its role as a lead ASW ship for task forces.
the CH53 has however never been operated as a ASW heli. the most I have read of is towing some kind of floating mine clearing trawl through the water to detonate mines near the surface.

one idea is if Europe is sitting on a lot of brand new NH90 for lack of funds to equip and use them, we could ask for a discounted price to take it off their hands and avail of depreciation.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Sep 2014 17:01

Rien wrote:Sikorsky's offsets are very much trivial and irrelevant. No US company has ever transferred any tech of any kind to Bharat. And they will not even if the universe itself were to end tomorrow. That makes the entire idea of Sikorsky bidding in the contract foolish.

Eurocopter has supplied the Shakti engine and most other components for Dhruv, LCH, Rudra etc. We are already on the EU horse for helicopter technology, and are best offgoing for more of the same. It makes no sense to thrown any already skilled technicians and infrastructure. Hal and Eurocopter have an excellent relationship, and the only use for Sikorsky is to threaten the EU into giving us a better deal.

No OEM will deliver transfer of technology unless asked to do so (through the RFP) and if a proper price is negotiated for the same. No one just hands over the technology as a gesture of good faith upon a request for a dozen or so helicopters that may not even involve any TOT requirement. The standard practice around the world for deals like these is that of offsets and even there if one asks for 30%, 30% is what will be provided not 50%, or 100%. Nations have asked for 100% offsets and received it from most western OEM"s (Europe, and american suppliers). Some nations have received offsets well in excess of 100% (UK on the F-35 program and lot many other examples).

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 Sep 2014 17:18

Singha wrote:CH53 can be housed in only LHD type ships even in the USN. no DDG has ever operated so large a helo afaik, but not that it cannot be done if there is considerable value add.

Oh! By mistake I wrote CH-53 that is 20+ ton category.

What I meant was Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone a 13 ton helicopter which Canada has ordered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone

General characteristics

Crew: 4 (2 pilots, 1 tactical coordinator TACCO, 1 sensor operator AES OP)
Capacity: 6 in mission config, up to 22 in utility config.
Length: 68 ft 6 in [S-92 data] (20.9 m)
Rotor diameter: 58 ft 1 in [S-92 data] (17.7 m)
Height: 15 ft 5 in [S-92 data] (4.7 m)
Disc area: 2,650 ft² [S-92 data] (246 m²)
Empty weight: 15,600 lb [S-92 data] (7,070 kg[45])
Max. takeoff weight: 28,650 lb (12,993 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × General Electric CT7-8A7 turboshaft, 3,000 shp (2,238 kW) each
Fuselage length: 56 ft 2 in (17.1 m)
Fuselage width: 17 ft 3 in (5.26 m)

Performance

Maximum speed: 165 knots (190 mph, 306 km/h)
Cruise speed: 137 knots (158 mph, 254 km/h)
Service ceiling: 15,000 ft (4,572 m)

Armament

2 x MK-46 torpedoes on BRU-14 mounted in folding weapons pylons
Door-arm mounted general-purpose machine gun

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 01 Sep 2014 17:21

One very strong additional argument against US maal is their price.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... lar-demand

We continue to depreciate against the US dollar, this means the price will rise ever higher. Besides the fact that our existing infrastructure at HAL is all geared around Eurocopter gear. The cost of retooling and junking the money already invested is fiscally irresponsible.

It's pretty much a one horse race, with no one to win but the NH90. I also fail to see the fascination BR posters have with obsolete junk. Why would you buy a chopper that is already out of date? The EU chopper is modern. It doesn't make sense to go around saying "Stone knives are 10 000 year old proven technology" when everyone else has bronze. Proven means the same thing as obsolete.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Sep 2014 17:29

Although I think the NH90 could be a favorite but the the entire point on production and tooling is rather moot since none of these helicopters are going to be produced or even assembled in India.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Sep 2014 17:32

NH-90 prices will be in Euros, secondly S-70 might be an old design but it has been optimized for 21st century ops, the newest versions have a lot of carbon composites in the airframe, new gen powerful engines and an advanced cockpit. There is virtually nothing in the NH-90 that makes it more modern than the S-70I. Both helos met the requirement as per IN and it will mostly be the S-70 that wins since it will be cheaper & has a better track record of combat proven reliability.

I agree with DJ, CH-148 is also a good option since we already make big parts of the S-92 at home.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 Sep 2014 17:53

brar_w wrote:Although I think the NH90 could be a favorite but the the entire point on production and tooling is rather moot since none of these helicopters are going to be produced or even assembled in India.

NMRH is 123 helicopters competition:

here Eurocopter is offering Eurocopter EC725 which is 11 ton helicopter, for sure these NMRH helicopters will be mfrd here in Bharat for such a big deal:

General characteristics

Crew: 1 or 2 (pilot + co-pilot)
Capacity: 1 chief of stick + 28 troops or 5,670 kilograms (12,500 lb) payload
Length: 19.5 m (64 ft 0 in)
Height: 4.6 m (15 ft 1 in)
Empty weight: 5,330 kg (11,751 lb)
Gross weight: 11,000 kg (24,251 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 11,200 kg (24,692 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Turboméca Makila 2A1 turboshaft engines, 1,776 kW (2,382 hp) each
Main rotor diameter: 16.20 m (53 ft 2 in)
Main rotor area: 206.1 m2 (2,218 sq ft)

Performance

Maximum speed: 324 km/h (201 mph; 175 kn) in level flight
Cruising speed: 285 km/h (177 mph; 154 kn)
Never exceed speed: 324 km/h (201 mph; 175 kn)
Range: 857 km (533 mi; 463 nmi)
Ferry range: 1,325 km (823 mi; 715 nmi)
Service ceiling: 6,095 m (19,997 ft)
Rate of climb: 7.4 m/s (1,460 ft/min)

titash · Post by **titash** » 01 Sep 2014 17:58

brar_w wrote:Although I think the NH90 could be a favorite but the the entire point on production and tooling is rather moot since none of these helicopters are going to be produced or even assembled in India.

Although I do wonder why - 100+ helicopters for the navy coupled with 40 years of maintenance and support + 10-15 attrition replacements should be enough incentive for a PSU or Ambani/Tata to set up a screwdriver plant.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 02 Sep 2014 00:04

S70B will win the MRH competition on basis of lower cost.

S92 military version H92/CH148 is likely to win the NMRH which is basically a troop carrier and long range ASW mission capable flying from IN destroyers.

IN helo requirement in 2025

IN 3T class ASW helo requirement for 750 t asw corvettes:- 16 ASW 3T class

IN carrier= 18 MRH ASW + 8 AEW

IN destroyer=20 NMRH ASW

IN frigate=26 MRH ASW + 6 AEW (for 6 Talwar class)

IN Corvette= 4 MRH ASW + 8 NALH ASW for kukhri class

IN LHD= 44 NMRH utility version

IN fleet replenishment tanker= 9 NMRH utility version

IN Magar class LST= 5 NMRH utility version

IN NOPV= 9 NALH utility version

Total requirement=173 nos plus attrition and training reserve.

MRH=48 nos

NMRH=20 ASW+58 utility= 78 nos

NALH= 8 ASW+ 9 utility= 17 nos

3T HELO= 16 nos

AEW= 14 Ka31

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 02 Sep 2014 00:28

48 MRH + 78 NMRH=126 +10% attrition reserve=139nos.

Of which 16 MRH is contracted and remaining 123 nos to be NMRH as remainder requirement of MRH is merged into NMRH so as to allow production line to be set up in INDIA.

It do not make sense as MRH i.e., S70B will be far cheaper than NMRH.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Sep 2014 01:59

The larger Merlin's would be perfect for the carriers and there ar also EW versions available. The NH-90 would be a batter choice from the reliability of support,sanctions free availability unlike the past experience with US sanctions which grounded our Sea Kings.Memories are indeed short if the GOI plumps for the US helo.

Meanwhile,the media is abuzz with the Indo-Japan PM's summit and the planned acquisition of 15 amphibs for the IN.At last,a decade old dream for the same is to turn into reality.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 02 Sep 2014 06:07

Cheen carrier though bigger in size it carries the same load aircraft's on board.

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0&cid=1101

China's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, can carry four Z-18J airborne early warning (AEW) helicopters, six Z-18F anti-submarine helicopters, two Z-9C rescue helicopters, and 24 J-15 shipborne fighter jets, the Chinese-language Shanghai Morning Post reported on Aug. 28.

Comapre with offical data of Vikramaditya

Airwing 30 aircraft: (24 MiG-29K + 2 Chetak/ALH + 4 Ka-31) - strike composition
(21 MiG-29K + 13 helicopters) - multipurpose composition

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Sep 2014 06:56

Does the Vicky have any inbuilt decontamination system - sprinkler?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 02 Sep 2014 07:45

ravip wrote:Cheen carrier though bigger in size it carries the same load aircraft's on board.

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0&cid=1101

China's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, can carry four Z-18J airborne early warning (AEW) helicopters, six Z-18F anti-submarine helicopters, two Z-9C rescue helicopters, and 24 J-15 shipborne fighter jets, the Chinese-language Shanghai Morning Post reported on Aug. 28.
Comapre with offical data of Vikramaditya

Airwing 30 aircraft: (24 MiG-29K + 2 Chetak/ALH + 4 Ka-31) - strike composition
(21 MiG-29K + 13 helicopters) - multipurpose composition

Although same un numbers Su 33 are double in every aspect when compared to Mig, I.e. Size, time on station, weapons etc. Size does matter.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Sep 2014 07:57

But one of the reasons the Russians are also moving to Mig-29 from Su-33 is that when launched from a carrier it is not able to carry a useful combat load, you can't fill it full of fuel or make it carry heavy anti ship missiles.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 02 Sep 2014 10:21

Sid wrote:Although same un numbers Su 33 are double in every aspect when compared to Mig, I.e. Size, time on station, weapons etc. Size does matter.

The U.S. Department of Defense notes that the J-15 will have below normal range and armament when operating from the carrier, due to limits imposed by the ski-jump takeoff and arrested carrier landings.

http://www.defense.gov/pubs/2013_china_report_final.pdf

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2014 10:41

NRao wrote:Does the Vicky have any inbuilt decontamination system - sprinkler?

every naval ship is expected to have NBC clearance systems. even MBT and IFVs have it in simpler form.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 02 Sep 2014 18:15

sankum wrote:48 MRH + 78 NMRH=126 +10% attrition reserve=139nos.

Of which 16 MRH is contracted and remaining 123 nos to be NMRH as remainder requirement of MRH is merged into NMRH so as to allow production line to be set up in INDIA.

It do not make sense as MRH i.e., S70B will be far cheaper than NMRH.

You're not taking US-Rupee foreign exchange volatility into account.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... lar-demand

The Indian rupee, which was on a par with the American currency at the time of Independence in 1947, has depreciated by a little more than 65 times against the greenback in the past 66 years.

The rupee touched its historic record low of below 65 (intraday) against the dollar last week on sluggish local stocks and continued dollar demand from importers.

All US dollar purchases will be unaffordable when you consider the history of Rupee-US Dollar trade. In addition, HAL has a long and extensive history of working with EU/Eurocopter Designers. Our entire industrial base of helicopters is based on EU stuff. Too expensive to even consider switching to anything else, would imply junking all existing industrial infrastructure. And frankly, the Sikorsky is obsolete. Something made in the 1970s is hardly competitive with modern equipment like the NH90.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Sep 2014 18:48

^^^^

S-70 is cheaper than the NH-90 and just as advanced, both aircraft passed trials, there is no question of the S-70 being obsolete.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Sep 2014 19:35

A dumb question: What's the difference between NMRH and MRH helos ? All the candidates - S-70B, NH-90, CH-148, even Ka-28 (not sure if it is in the running) are all seem to be in the same class (between 10-13t MTOW). They all have ASW variants and also can transport personnel. So - why two tenders ?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 02 Sep 2014 20:26

its all about nomenclature and RFI of MRH on 2011 and NMRH on 2013 with later bringing more players to compete.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Sep 2014 21:01

And frankly, the Sikorsky is obsolete. Something made in the 1970s is hardly competitive with modern equipment like the NH90.

Where do you get such info from?

Just curious.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2014 21:04

in that sense even the F-solah , F-18, F-15, 737 and E-3 are obsolete and 70s products.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 02 Sep 2014 22:36

aah, that troll is hungry again !

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 02 Sep 2014 22:48

So NH90 is finished, in case NDA govt. buys a platform from augusta westland that'd be like giving clean chit to St. Scamthony and italian termite queen. As jaitley said they'll allow aw in deals already signed, but not in next deals. They're finito!

That leaves Sikorsky, its like eating crow even i have to admit that IN might have to go with sikorsky but I hope they take heavier ch-148, as one thing since world wars is clear, everything keeps becoming heavier and heavier, whether its destroyers, fighters, strikers, torpedos, missiles so keeping in mind the future thinking of 2020s and 2030s and well beyond IN will be operating them, go for bigger and bulkier with more payload and for the sake of our security stock up well on spares!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Sep 2014 23:10

In that case you may have to wish one specifically for the IN.

A better route to go.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 02 Sep 2014 23:23

Rien wrote:
sankum wrote:48 MRH + 78 NMRH=126 +10% attrition reserve=139nos.

Of which 16 MRH is contracted and remaining 123 nos to be NMRH as remainder requirement of MRH is merged into NMRH so as to allow production line to be set up in INDIA.

It do not make sense as MRH i.e., S70B will be far cheaper than NMRH.
You're not taking US-Rupee foreign exchange volatility into account.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... lar-demand

The USD-INR rate is completely irrelevant.

When comparing a US product against a European product, only the USD-EUR rate matters (or USD-GBP where applicable). And that rate has stayed broadly steady at about 1.3 dollars to the euro. Heavy quantative easing in the Eurozone might improve competitiveness but no such move is on the cards so far.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Sep 2014 01:33

dhananjay

I would hold off on the CH 148

this so far has had issues and delays and am not sure we need that

I would rather go with the tried and trusted versions which has had a long run to iron out glitches

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 03 Sep 2014 05:19

sankum wrote:S70B will win the MRH competition on basis of lower cost.

S92 military version H92/CH148 is likely to win the NMRH which is basically a troop carrier and long range ASW mission capable flying from IN destroyers.

IN helo requirement in 2025

IN 3T class ASW helo requirement for 750 t asw corvettes:- 16 ASW 3T class

IN carrier= 18 MRH ASW + 8 AEW

IN destroyer=20 NMRH ASW

IN frigate=26 MRH ASW + 6 AEW (for 6 Talwar class)

IN Corvette= 4 MRH ASW + 8 NALH ASW for kukhri class

IN LHD= 44 NMRH utility version

IN fleet replenishment tanker= 9 NMRH utility version

IN Magar class LST= 5 NMRH utility version

IN NOPV= 9 NALH utility version

Total requirement=173 nos plus attrition and training reserve.

MRH=48 nos

NMRH=20 ASW+58 utility= 78 nos

NALH= 8 ASW+ 9 utility= 17 nos

3T HELO= 16 nos

AEW= 14 Ka31

These numbers are staggering. It's obvious that the Navy has not been successful in convincing the Government of the seriousness of their lack of helicopters. I think this is a common issue with all the 3 wings; that they are not able to convince the peons (who became the bosses) of the strategic and national security issues at hand.

The proper strategy would be to build these birds at home; we cannot be ordering these helis piece-meal. Also, we should have a separate company (may be a offshoot of HAL) that will build and service these helis.