Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

[Sagar G]

True ... no one is saying reconsider anything ... that cant be done but yes, I do base some of my arguments in having spoken to pilots who have either evaluated the jets or senior officers who have read the assessments. Ultimately, the downselect could have gone any way ... but this isnt at all to suggest that the Rafale is poor. Its brilliant.

But yes, this is all hypothetical and far fetched. But one reality remains - all these years later, we sit without a single MMRCA.

That is absolute bunkum, their hasn't been any indication that Gripen was anywhere near being down selected or having passed all the technical evaluation points. Ultimately what matters is the final contenders chosen by IAF themselves and Gripen was no where in the list and AFAIK the final contenders were chosen based upon them passing most or all tech. eval. points and then from them L1 was chosen. This is indication enough that Gripen wasn't upto mark because if it was then it would have made the final list and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it would have been L1.

Just expressing my frustration. As are we all.

Count me out of that "frustrated" gang instead I am enjoying this drama. The current situation is the making of IAF itself and goes on to show the poor planning capability of IAF HQ. All those years of dissing and throwing muck at LCA has now come to bite IAF's ass, circle of Karma is now complete.

[UlanBatori]

Rafale dead.

The MoD has been backing away from the Rafale for two months now. On December 30, 2014, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted for the first time there were "complications" in the negotiations with Dassault, and outlined the IAF's alternatives.

"The Sukhoi-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs", said Parrikar.

Last week the prime minister was pointedly distanced from the Rafale. On Saturday, an unusual MoD press release denied a newspaper report that the PM would fly in the Rafale during the Aero India 2015 air show at Bangalore this week.

"It is clarified that there is no plan for the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to fly in any fighter jet. The news item is incorrect, misconceived and is not based on facts", stated the MoD.

All I can say is "Phew!" or "Inshallah!"
I thought the article was going to say: "And so we will buy the Oirofighter onlee - what's a few software errors between friends?"

Su-30MKI with Indian mods based on LCA experience, is the way to go. Of course one needs new Indian-built, Indian-designed engines that are good.

I can't believe that in this day and age, the ppl appointed to make such deals are so 404 about how much the thing costs, as they evaluate bids!! Is this true? Still at the stage of diligence of Siraj ud Dowla in dealing with the Oiropeans?

"An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated," says an official in the CNC.

Contacted for comments, the MoD has not responded. ..
This is the second time the MoD has gone wrong in LCC evaluations. As Business Standard reported on Saturday ("Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer", February 14) an internal MoD noting last month sharply questioned the award of a contract for 75 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft to Swiss company, Pilatus. There too, the LCC was calculated incorrectly.

Significantly, that noting, signed by AR Sule, the MoD's "Finance Manager (Air)", who handles financial aspects of military aircraft purchases, alerts the defence minister to issues with LCC evaluation in the MMRCA tender.

Sule writes: "The issue (with LCC calculations) may be brought to the notice of the RM (Raksha Mantri) as two high value cases of IAF based on LCC model are at CFA (competent financial authority) approval stage."

Figuring out costs and technical specs is an advanced technical and economics endeavor. Who do they have doing this in Dilli?

[srai]

...
argument that the Gripen will kill the LCA is spinmastery at its best ... fuelled by those with an agenda. And yes, in a deal like this, everyone has an agenda or at the very least an argument. So ultimately, it boils down to fanboy-ism or favouritism with or without incentives.
...

Well ... look what happened to HAL's HTT-40? The "agreement" was that the IAF would procure 75 BTAs from foreign vendor to meet its "urgent" need and then they would sanction/intent to purchase around 115 indigenous ones. But the IAF had other ideas all along!

[Danell]

hi Vishnu. Unfortunately, it seems that we must resign to the fact that the MRCA procurement has been bungled up. And for this fiasco, the IAF and the MoD are equally to be blamed.
.

Kartik, despite some indian journalists engaged in wishfull thinking like Ajai Shukla , the latest official statements made today suggest instead a growing convergence between Dassault and the Indian gov.

[...] Responding to a question on the multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France, Singh said "....out of 126 odd aircraft, 18 are to be delivered by them and the balances are to be manufactured here." "The ones that are made here, it has to be with the help from original equipment manufacturer -- Dassault. Dassault must ensure that what is being produced in India is also of standard and as good as theirs." He said "Now that it is some thing, I think that we would expect them to help out in; ...they are working it out, there are no issues, the logistics of the problem are being worked out, that's all."
Singh said "they have to help us in producing the same product of the same standard as the one they supplied to us when we imported... there should be no compromise on this..."

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/460 ... staff.html

"help" not "liability" ...

[...] "We would like to have the 'same standard' of what is being produced in France," the minister said. He said efforts are on to thrash out the ‘pending concerns,' which according to him cannot be termed as ‘issues. 'He said the government was keen to give the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots best flying machines. "Our capability of assembling these fighters may not be as good as the OEM (Rafale). But they should help HAL bring out machines matching what they make in France,"[...]

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-will-o ... 56029.html

Interview of Dassault CEO

There is a problem about industrial liability with HAL, the local partner for the manufacture of the aircraft, it is soluble?
We have no problem. There is a tender in which we complied. We were asked to agree with HAL, we agreed with HAL. We were asked to share the work with HAL, we shared the work with HAL. We were asked to have a single contract, while the tender did not require it. We have provided a single contract. We believe we are in compliance in all areas. Now the ball is in the Indian camp.

The dividing line is clear?
Everyone is responsible for what he does. We are responsible for organizing the program, that is to say, to provide the license and as such, to provide the tools, documentation, technical assistance, training, we check quality standards . After ... the one who takes the hammer and taps on the sheet metal will be Indian. If he fails, he will be responsible, it' normal.

So no lock, as claimed by the Indian media?
Not seen from our window. There were questions and discussions. This is an ongoing discussion. We solved what is the responsibility of the Air Force. We solved what is the responsibility of HAL. Now, we are reviewing the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence. For each clause, everyone looks at who is responsible for what. In India, the timing is still a bit long. We are not particularly worried.

http://www.lesechos.fr/journal20150216/ ... 093506.php

[Sagar G]

The most idiotic thing is how EF can't be procured or negotiated with. What kind of dunces wrote this procurement fiasco?

And also how did a vendor exactly get away with providing sketchy info & the CNC announced it as L-1 and then goes looking for info?

What a high farce. This has UPA expertise written ALL over it. No further explanation required. I bet Subbu Swamy is grinning right now.

The "dunce" is none other than our CVC

Posting in full his circular dated 3rd March,2007

(i) As post tender negotiations could often be a source of corruption, it is directed that there should be no post-tender negotiations with L-1, except in certain exceptional situations. Such exceptional situations would include, procurement of proprietary items, items with limited sources of supply and items where there is suspicion of a cartel ormation. The justification and details of such negotiations should be duly recorded and documented without any loss of time.

(ii) In cases where a decision is taken to go for re-tendering due to the unreasonableness of the quoted rates, but the requirements are urgent and a retender for the entire requirement would delay the availability of the item, thus jeopardizing the essential operations, maintenance and safety, negotiations would be permitted with L-1 bidder(s) for the supply of a bare minimum quantity. The balance quantity should however be procured expeditiously through a re-tender, following the normal tendering process.

(iii) Negotiations should not be allowed to be misused as a tool for bargaining with L-1 with dubious intentions or lead to delays in decision-making. Convincing reasons must be recorded by the authority recommending negotiations. Competent authority should exercise due diligence while accepting a tender or ordering negotiations or calling for a re-tender and a definite timeframe should be indicated so that the time taken for according requisite approvals for the entire process of award of tenders does not exceed one month from the date of submission of recommendations. In cases where the proposal is to be approved at higher levels, a maximum of 15 days should be assigned for clearance at each level. In no case should the overall timeframe exceed the Typed Copy: Please get original from concerned authorities for further action
please validity period of the tender and it should be ensured that tenders are invariably finalized with their validity period.

(iv) As regards the splitting of quantities, some organizations have expressed apprehension that pre-disclosing the distribution of quantities in the bid document may not be feasible, as the capacity of the L-1 firm may not be known in advance. It may be stated that if after due processing, it is discovered that the quantity to be ordered is far more than what L-1 alone is capable of supplying and there was no prior decision to split the quantities, then the quantity being finally ordered should be distributed among the other bidders in a manner that is fair, transparent and equitable. It is essentially in
cases where the organizations decide in advance to have more than one source of supply(due to critical or vital nature of the item) that the Commission insists on pre-disclosing the ration of splitting the supply in the tender itself. This must be followed scrupulously.

(v) Counter-offers to L-1 in order to arrive at an acceptable price, shall amount to negotiations. However, any counter-offer thereafter to L-2, L-3, etc. ,(at the rates accepted by L-1) in case of splitting of quantities as pre-disclosed in the tender shall not be deemed to be a negotiation.

2. It is reiterated that in case L-1 backs-out, there should be a re-tender.

3. These instructions issue with the approval of the Commission and may please be noted for immediate compliance.

I agree with the logic being given here and besides if GoI chooses to negotiate with L2 then that not only beats the logic behind choosing L1 and negotiating with him but also gives a chance to rest of the vendors to drag GoI or any government organization to court citing corruption.

[Cosmo_R]

The most idiotic thing is how EF can't be procured or negotiated with. What kind of dunces wrote this procurement fiasco?

And also how did a vendor exactly get away with providing sketchy info & the CNC announced it as L-1 and then goes looking for info?

What a high farce. This has UPA expertise written ALL over it. No further explanation required. I bet Subbu Swamy is grinning right now.

We are not dealing with geniuses at MoD. They are good test takers and b**t kissers —skills they have used to park themselves in a sinecure that rewards "No" and "No action". I am not surprised. They were prouder of the 242 evaluation facets in the RFP than of trying to bring a critically needed capability to the IAF.

If they could not figure cheapest/dearest right what confidence does one have on the other criteria? With this report, the Rafale is dead because the opposition will do a Bofors on Modi.

[Cosmo_R]

@arturo ^^ "Dassault, which had originally selected privately-owned Reliance Industries as its partner for the program"

Dassault has no right to select its partner under the MMRCA tender. That was just a counter move to dilute the requirement for being responsible for the quality and timing of the 108 manufactured (assembled really) by HAL. One can argue that Dassault should not be responsible for HAL's work. However, rejecting it as a road to bankruptcy is to ask for zero accountability (Scorpenes) because the Rafales are not manufactured in France.

The GoF/Dassault endgame has always been that IAF is so desperate, that it will push MoD(i) to approve a direct import and Dassault will play along with a dramatically lower capital cost. The French unions are very much against this deal for the a/c to be manufactured in India India even if it's just token stuff.

GoF and Dassault have misread the AK Browne (?) comment about "no plan B".

The Scorpenes and Areva reactors are the price India will pay for France's support on the UNSC. The Rafale is not. It is an extremely expensive gap filler that will support French lifestyles but do zilch for India's overall military capability except to suck resources needed in other areas.

[Hitesh]

Srai,

I would rather get more upgraded Su-30s and LCAs than get more second hand Mig29s, Jaquars, or Mirages. In fact, I would halt the upgrades to the Mirages and go full speed on LCA and Su-30s. With the money being thrown at rafaels and upgraded Mirages, one could easily produce 200 more Su-30s and 600 LCAs, simplifying the IAF logistics chain and cutting down on too many types of planes. IAF needs to downsize from 7 different types of combat planes to 2-3 types of combat planes. No one would dare mess with an air force that has 400+ Su-30s and 800 -1000 LCAs that are comparable to F-16Cs. Most important of all, India gets to own the entire logistic chains and IAF would not be wanting for spares ever again and keep the fleet at 80%+ operational at any given time.

[ramana]

BTW serious charges about Soniaji 's hand in the Rafale deal. Looks like she is related to Carla Bruni.

http://www.moneylife.in/article/the-cur ... 26201.html

No wonder NAK Browne became an Ambassador.

[Will]

If the Rafale deal gets cancelled , don't rule out the F-35. With Modi -Bama pappi jhappi still going strong don't rule out the Amrikans muscling in.

[brar_w]

BTW serious charges about Soniaji 's hand in the Rafale deal. Looks like she is related to Carla Bruni.

http://www.moneylife.in/article/the-cur ... 26201.html

No wonder NAK Browne became an Ambassador.

Thats dated from a few years ago. Has the new government begun an inquiry ?

[NRao]

They used Camels (Sopwith) camouflaged as F-16s. How impatient!!!! Could not wait for the Rafale?

Egypt bombs IS in Libya after beheadings video

[UlanBatori]

If the Rafale deal gets cancelled , don't rule out the F-35. With Modi -Bama pappi jhappi still going strong don't rule out the Amrikans muscling in.

And the great thing is that most Indian 'National Highways' would look like they are in original condition, even after a few vertical takeoffs on full load.

[brar_w]

If the Rafale deal gets cancelled , don't rule out the F-35. With Modi -Bama pappi jhappi still going strong don't rule out the Amrikans muscling in.

And the great thing is that most Indian 'National Highways' would look like they are in original condition, even after a few vertical takeoffs on full load.

It doesn't do vertical takeoffs with combat load. Its a STOVL aircraft. Even so, in your scenario ('national highways') the F-35B would execute a 40 Knot landing and not land vertically.

[arthuro]

Rafale contract signed with Egypt:

INTERVIEW OF CEO Eric TRAPPIER, Les ECHOS, Feb 16

What diffence does this contract make for Dassault ?
It makes big differences. There was a great expectation among employees, the general public and the media to understand why this plane was not sold for export. Is it too expensive? other reasons? Are we handling it badly ? Since we did the first time, these questions are tossed out the door. But we had confidence because we know that the Rafale is excellent and cheaper than most of its competitors, contrary to some misconceptions.

Does it help you to keep one foot in the military [business]?
That is undeniable. If we stop the military, then we will be only in civil aviation, and would be forced to go to the other side of the Atlantic[1]. It is very difficult to be competitive with our US competitors while remaining in France. When we can rely on a dual activity of civil-military type, we can optimize our investment in infrastructure, tools and industrial processes. We can keep a correct industrial equation. Thus, the Rafale is entirely made in France and our Falcon are 80% made in france. This contract export with Egypt in addition to the French contract means the perpetuation of the dual model of Dassault and its implementation in France. For us and our major partners, Safran and Thales, and 500 companies of the Rafale program.

Did the Egyptians evaluated other options?
When I saw President Al Sissi, I wanted to explain the qualities of the Rafale, he stopped me right away. He said, "I know this is a great airplane. I want to buy it, let's negotiate".[...]

In what extent can this help you to sign other contracts?
Having recorded a first reference will not trigger other contracts in the sense that countries were waiting this , but there is a psychological barrier that is now crossed. Concerning our image, it'll help to overcome some hurdles in other countries.

As in India?
India is not necessarily looking at what is happening in Egypt , but she hear and sees it.

There is a problem about industrial liability with HAL, the local partner for the manufacture of aircraft, it is soluble?
We have no problem. There is a tender in which we complied. We were asked to agree with HAL, we agreed with HAL. We were asked to share the work with HAL, we shared the work with HAL. We were asked to have a single contract, while the tender did not require it. We have provided a single contract. We believe we are in compliance in all areas. Now the ball is in the Indian camp.

The dividing line is clear?
Everyone is responsible for what he does. We are responsible for organizing the program, that is to say, to provide the license and as such, to provide the tools, documentation, technical assistance, training, we check quality standards . After ... the one who takes the hammer and taps on the sheet metal will be Indian. If he fails, he will be responsible, it' normal.

So no lock, as claimed by the Indian media?
Not seen from our window. There were questions and discussions. This is an ongoing discussion. We solved what is the responsibility of the Air Force. We solved what is the responsibility of HAL. Now, we are reviewing the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence. For each clause, everyone looks at who is responsible for what. In India, the timing is still a bit long. We are not particularly worried.

Does Qatar really need the Rafale?
Yes, Qatar needs to buy fighter jets like other countries of the region. It is a volatile region in which it is necessary to have air defense , ground attack and reconnaissance capabilities to be able to act autonomously in a coalition. Qatar has launched a call for proposals. We made good progress. It is now up to them to decide.

Approximately 300 Mirage 2000 were exported. Is it the same potential for the Rafale ?
It's less if we take into account the capabilities of the Rafale compared to the Mirage 2000. Now, if we sell 126 Rafale in India with 63 options, we ll be close close to 200 copies. India will be a strong sizing of the success of the Rafale export . The Egyptian contract serves as a primer, as it was the case for the Mirage 2000.

http://www.lesechos.fr/journal20150216/ ... 093506.php

[arthuro]

Services on board on Chief of Defence Staff, says MoS Defence

[...]
Responding to a question on the multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France, Singh* said: "....out of 126 odd aircraft, 18 are to be delivered by them and the balances are to be manufactured here."

"The ones that are made here, it has to be with the help from original equipment manufacturer -- Dassault. Dassault must ensure that what is being produced in India is also of standard and as good as theirs."

He said "Now that it is some thing, I think that we would expect them to help out in; ...they are working it out, there are no issues, the logistics of the problem are being worked out, that's all."

Singh said "they have to help us in producing the same product of the same standard as the one they supplied to us when we imported... there should be no compromise on this..."

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/460 ... staff.html

[arthuro]

We will only accept the best Rafales: Minister

[...] "We would like to have the 'same standard' of what is being produced in France," the minister said. He said efforts are on to thrash out the ‘pending concerns,' which according to him cannot be termed as ‘issues.' He refused to comment when asked whether one of the concerns were that of the ‘build standards' of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

As per the deal, first 18 Rafales would be built in France and the remaining 108 be produced in India. "There are no issues. When we make the aircraft at HAL they (Dassault) will have to be of the same standard manufactured by the OEM," the minister said. He said the government was keen to give the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots best flying machines.

"Our capability of assembling these fighters may not be as good as the OEM (Rafale). But they should help HAL bring out machines matching what they make in France," Singh said. He admitted that the OEMs exporting defence equipment to India, might not part with their best technology so easily.

He said there could be some price escalation, but refused to go into the details. "Not everything can be discussed in public," he said.

To another query whether Dassault is keen to undertake the India part of manufacturing the Rafales with another company (other than HAL), the minister said the DPSU has the expertise in making modern fighters.

"HAL will continue to be the strategic production line for the aircraft as inducting another company will be difficult," he said. [...]

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-will-o ... 56029.html

[arthuro]

Indian pilots flying with the rafale and enjoying it (starting at 17min30 sec):

http://videos.tf1.fr/jt-20h/2015/le-20- ... 63239.html

IAF seems delighted : Norman Anil Kumar Browne who flew the rafale for several days praised the Man machine interface and the ease of flight in the video.

[Karan M]

Sagar, that CVC notification is perfect bureaucratese gone nuts. It completely ignores real world negotiations and importance of keeping lines of comm open with L1 and L2 both. It presumes intent of corruption w/own decision makers & then goes onto penalize any and every attempt to seek a better deal for India as "not done". Retender it says, when the basic tender itself would have taken eons. Buy minimum L1 it says, ignoring both EOQ and economies of scale. No wonder we are in this mess.

[RoyG]

The French are really something.

PMO is clearly scaring the piss out of Dassault.

It is up to them to make the deal more juicy and reduce the price.

I am sure they will cave.

If not, screw them.

[Karan M]

The entire mess is because for some reason a vendor provided sketchy details (why would they do that?) and was still chosen as L1 (why did that happen?) & now since GOI has changed hands, the folks who are left behind don't want to be implicated & are busy letting the sordid details out.
Meanwhile, both Govts are trying to hammer out a deal.

[Cosmo_R]

It gets worse. The L1/L2 bidders were selected after the down select to Rafale and EF vs the others. MoD had no idea of the price until the bids were opened in front of Dassault and EF. Inside sources told Dassault how the the presentation could skew the L1/L2.

We have 10th standard Babuz evaluating 1st world lawyer language.

[Avarachan]

I have a sense that Indian patriots are going to be very happy with the end result of all this. Let's wait and see. Regarding Indian bureaucrats, I recommend not under-estimating their intelligence. Things are not always what they seem.

[Hobbes]

Ajai Shukla has his contribution to the discussion on his blog: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/.

His POV is that the IAF is pushing the Rafale at the expense of the FGFA. I am not sure any more what to believe, with so many conspiracy theories floating around.

[fanne]

i am afraid, if rafel does not go through IAF may disband itself

[Singha]

^^

not everything is known about the FGFA but:

a comparison of the patrol time at 850kmph of a Rafale vs PAKFA at a distance of 500km from base on full internal fuel would be good to know.
at the expense of heavy weapons the rafale could cart alone 2 or 3 of its huge drop tanks but in a A2A role those are a liability and 'drop' means one engagement and you need to turn for home, and not able to stick around for the second. in contrast a CFT equipped F-15E would be able to hang around.

the PAKFA cannot have external tanks to preserve LO, so its time on station with internal fuel would be good to know for a 1:1 comparison with rafale...both would be carting around the same a2a load of 6-8 AAMs.

[GopiD]

http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news- ... Vo6tIatV8=

MEA NOTES SUKHOI 30s GREATER APPEAL TO RAFALE

The Indian Foreign Ministry noted the greater price attractiveness and reliability of the Russian multi-role fighter Su-30 over the French Rafale. Sputnik learned this from the India’s Minister of State for External Affairs Vijay Kumar Singh.

“The French planes are expensive, whereas the Su-30s are inexpensive and reliable. The government has not yet made ​​a final decision (on the possible cancellation of the contract for the Rafale fighter jets),” he said.

[NRao]

dassault needs to fall on that sword.

Too many hints.

[Skanda]

The curious Rafale deal

Though there are no fingers pointed at anyone in particular in the $11 billion Rafale jet fighter deal, it certainly has strange connections and cross connections

There have been allegations that pressure from the highest political level, and possibly a huge under-the-table payment, dictated India's decision to plump for the Rafale jet fighter made by Dassault of France. The order is for 126 fighter-jets worth an immense $11 billion. These jets are meant to replace the country's ageing fleet of MiG 21s, which make up one-third of the Air force's jet fighters.

Collateral evidence has emerged, through research by Subramanian Swamy and our searches on Google and other internet sites, that blood relations and close friendships at the top political level probably tilted the scales in favour of the Rafale. There is as yet no evidence that Dassault paid a huge bribe to India's first family, though the possibility cannot be ruled out, given the current milieu in India.

It is a tangled skein and one end of the thread begins with T Anantha Krishnan, popularly called TAK. He is the son of a Sri Lankan Tamil immigrant, who was an indentured plantation worker.TAK was reputedly close to K Padbanabhan, money manager of the LTTE, who is now in jail in Sri Lanka.

TAK has no further role in this tale, except that his wife is Latchoumie Marie Helene, born to a white French father who belongs one of the ancient families of France and a Tamil mother. She is popularly known as Mme TAK and Latchoumie is probably the Frenchified version of Lakshmi, a common Tamil name...

Mme TAK, is the owner of La Fantaisie, a very big art gallery and auction house in Paris, which can be described as the Christie's of France. Carla Bruni, the Italian wife of Nicholas Sarkozy who was the French president when the Rafale deal was inked, is a partner in this venture for the past two years.

Mme TAK is also owner of a sophisticated music recording house in Paris. Carla, who is also a pop singer, uses Mme TAK's studios for registering and issuing her albums.

She counts among her good friends Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi and Sonia's sisters who frequently visit her in France and stay in her chateau. Rahul Gandhi stayed with her when he went to France in early 2012.

Mme TAK owns vineyards in northern Colombia with jointly with rich Colombian families called Bettancourt and Katalli. Rahul Gandhi's former live in girl-friend Veronique is connected to the Kattallis.

Now comes the interesting point. Mme TAK is one of the shareholders of Dassault.
Carla Bruni is Italian born. She is related by marriage to Sonia Gandhi: Carla is a cousin of Sonia Gandhi's sister's daughter-in-law.

Discussions are still going on between India's defence ministry and Dassault, particularly on the 'offset' condition under which around 50% of the aircraft will have to be built by Indian manufacturers.

[NRao]

IAF seems delighted : Norman Anil Kumar Browne who flew the rafale

trying to find a word for this scenario.

Do the French actually believe this story?

[Skanda]

‘Effectively dead’: Media speculate on India’s purchase of $20bn French Rafale jets

From Russia Today.

Three years of negotiations between France’s Dassault and the contract negotiation committee of the India’s Defense Ministry on the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets may be about to collapse. Sources mostly blame the exorbitant price.

According to Business Standard, citing an anonymous source at the CNC, Dassault’s proposal turned out to be much more expensive than presented in the commercial bid, making it far from being the cheapest one, as announced on January 31, 2012.

If true, the reaction of India’s military is expected to deliver a hard blow to Dassault. The order has already decreased from 310 to 180 due to budget cuts.

This news may also make Cairo the first and only overseas buyer for Dassault’s Rafale. On Monday, France was announced to sign a 5.2 billion euro deal on export of 24 Rafale fighters to Egypt.

Rafale’s true cost for India turned out to be even higher than second-placed bid of Eurofighter Typhoon, which costs approximately €90 million.

“An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated,” CNC official told Business Standard.

India’s MoD reportedly explains the confusion as due to an incorrect assessment of Life-Cycle Cost (LCC), which includes total expenses of overhaul and maintenance of the fighter during its 30-40 years in service.

So far, the Indian MoD has not issued any official statement on the situation with the Rafale contract.

The Dassault Rafale is a French twin-engine, multirole fighter aircraft. It was first introduced in 2011 for France’s Air Force and Navy.

France’s Dassault Aviations won the MMRCA contract in 2012. The original conditions implied production of the initial 18 Rafale fighter jets in France, with the remaining 108 to be manufactured at the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) facility in India under a technology transfer agreement. The license for 108 aircraft to be produced in India envisaged that 74 Rafales would be rolled out in a single-seat version and 34 aircraft would be twin-seaters.

[ramana]

With clean Mundu & NAKB in the pilot seat and Sonaji and her behen fixing things I dont know what and whom to believe.

Sonaiji out did her late husband in looting own treasury.

[UlanBatori]

How quickly can Su-30MKI production be ramped up to equip IAF?

[ldev]

I hate to speculate and to imply conspiracy theories, but this procurement stinks to high heaven!! As have many MOD purchases in the past, but the amounts involved in the Rafale are enormous and the pay-offs made/promised must be also enormous.

So the L1 bidder need not hold the price line after 2 years and yet the negotiations continue, and now $11 billion the original bid amount may go up to $20 billion, because hey now that the 2 years are up nobody is bound contractually to hold the price line. How sweet is that? I can bet that feelers were put out to the current GOI and what it would cost to "wrap up" the deal. Would love to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation. But the French are not dumb, I suspect that most pay-offs made/promised to the previous GOI would be held in escrow pending finalization of the deal.

End of speculation!!

For the good of the future of the Modi Government and to avoid any future charges of payoffs, this deal must be scrapped.

[Aditya_V]

How quickly can Su-30MKI production be ramped up to equip IAF?

PLus additional orders for Tejas MK-1 and revamp its production to 48 aircraft from 2017-18.

[srin]

How quickly can Su-30MKI production be ramped up to equip IAF?

I've read that HAL has ear-marked land specifically for Rafale production line. So, presumably, if Rafale deal is cancelled, it can be used for Su-30 or LCA.

But if we have received all the ToT we can from Russia for the MKI, then we can simply get more MKIs from Russians directly - they have an ongoing Su-30SM line at Irkutsk and would be glad to make some money, and secondly, there is no great technological benefit doing it here. So, we get them quickly and we get them cheap.

Then HAL can use their new facility for LCA Mk1

[Kartik]

Karan ... You don't like the Gripen .. thats fine. But each and every point you have on the Gripen can be countered with other "facts," for example details on the Brazilian evaluation of the jet. So, lets not restart a debate thats been done to death. Thats not my intention.

I don’t want to go into specifics of the Brazilian FX-2, but the Gripen didn’t shine there either. The FAB was initially rating the Rafale as the most capable jet, and later on the F/A-18 E/F was rated as the most capable. The only area where the Gripen E/F apparently out did the others was in operational and acquisition costs and in ToT, coming from a host of sources. Building a twin seater Gripen F variant is the lollipop that Brazil has settled for, but that is hardly that big a deal for India, when we have our own LCA in so many variants, all developed in-house.

And I’m not sure how you can dismiss the Swiss evaluation results. It was leaked out and rated the Gripen as unsatisfactory in range and payload specifically and its much vaunted data fusion was rated well below that of the Rafale. While I agree that the Gripen was supposed to replace the F-5 and not the F/A-18 C/D in Swiss service, the Swiss themselves found that in several key missions it didn’t meet the minimum requirements!

The point I make is about a price/capability compromise that India should have made eons ago. I argue that this decision should have been made five-six years ago and the platform that should have been considered was either the `relatively' inexpensive MiG-35 or the Gripen C/D (not the E/F). Nothing was done so we all sit pretty now. Neither was the LCA nearly as evolved as it is now 5-6 years back.

The argument that the Gripen will kill the LCA is spinmastery at its best ... fuelled by those with an agenda. And yes, in a deal like this, everyone has an agenda or at the very least an argument. So ultimately, it boils down to fanboy-ism or favouritism with or without incentives.

5-6 years ago the MRCA was the on-going program. How could any decision to adopt the MiG-35 or Gripen C/D been made back then, when the MiG-35 and Gripen E/F were in the MRCA contest itself?

And the argument that the Gripen would kill the LCA program is not spin mastery. There are multiple such experiences from the past that point to such a possibility. The DPSA/Jaguar program effectively ended any interest in a follow-on Marut variant that would tackle the re-engining requirement and the Marut was retired post haste with plenty of hours available on the fleet. The HF-73 program was never adopted and it effectively meant that all the expertise gained with so much hard work over a decade and a half went down the drain.

Therefore, as a country, govt and Air Force, we needed the maturity to pick an MMRCA based on what we could afford while sticking to our guns of developing the LCA Mk-2 without worrying about what anyone was saying. For that, we needed a government policy, vision and public statement. We got none. So, after all these years, we slog it out on the internet, playing out our little games of competitive patriotism.

A reluctant customer like the IAF would’ve seen the golden opportunity to nip the Mk2 program in the bud by offering arguments on fleet rationalization, platform maturity and what not. Who would have stuck to their guns? The MoD? The GoI? The IAF would’ve flatly refused to support the program and kept shifting goalposts, thereby stalling the Mk2 and eventually we’d have been left with no option but to go for the Gripen E/F. The PC-7 Mk2 saga is proof enough of that.

Any how ... I think Kartik's solution of procuring more Sukhois is the only available solution at the moment.

It is the only viable solution as of now. The Rafale deal appears very unlikely to go through since the waters have been muddied enough.

By the way, Karan, in having interacted more with the PR set up of all these companies, I can also tell you each and everyone is as slick as the other.

Anyway, cheers

But no one is as slick as Saab. I mean did you read that the Gripen E/F is over a 1000 kgs over its design OEW? Any negative reports in the media on how its “overweight”? You won’t find a single one that mentions this, whereas on the LCA program, lifafa journalism has been taken to an all new level, with constant negative reports.

I mean there are guys out there who still believe that the Gripen has a combat radius of +1000 km! All thanks to slick presentations that don’t present the assumptions clearly so even a dim analyst can figure out that something doesn’t add up. Yet gullible people just swallow it up and then go spread the myth of the Gripen’s massive range..till a Swiss report emerges that blows the bubble and states that the range/payload of the Gripen is its weakest suit.

[Kartik]

Guys, I think that the the discussion on this thread has de-generated into French and Rafale abuse, which is totally uncalled for.

The Rafale is one of the best fighters out there. Certainly the most capable Euro-canard and it has clear advantages over the Su-30MKI in certain areas, such as RCS..I've read reports on FG dating back to 1989 where Dassault officials talk about RCS reduction techniques being applied to its design. It has an in-service AESA, it will get the Meteor, it has some very capable American and French A2G weapons integrated and its man-machine interface is rated as one of the best. It is a very capable dog-fighter as well, although a HMS would make a huge difference here for off-bore sight shots.

As an engineer who has worked on sizing airplane structures, I've always had a great deal of respect for what the Dassault guys managed to do with this jet. They really sliced the safety margins wafer thin and later on were able to prove that they were right in doing so..the ratio of its empty weight to max payload is truly the best among all fighter jets and isn't going to be beaten anytime soon. I mean that jet weighs 10 tons empty and then carries a max of 9.5 tons of payload externally..its a phenomenal ratio.

So lets not diss the jet itself. It is costly, yes, but it isn't a Gripen- a light fighter masquerading as a medium fighter with trumped up capabilities that haven't withstood proper evaluations. This jet made it to the top of the MRCA list because it is was the best. Yes, the cost is very high, but the discussions veer off into French bashing and Rafale bashing and are sometimes in bad taste.

If this deal doesn't go through for any of a host of reasons, the IAF will have lost out on adding the most potent fighter out there today. In which case we go back to the Su-30MKI and fast-track the Super-30 upgrade and pump money into the Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA. Going back to the Typhoon, which isn't nearly as capable as the Rafale would be the worst possible outcome.

Some may see the deal tanking as the best thing that could happen, but others, including me, would be awfully disappointed and look to then make the best out of what is essentially a bad situation.

Just to remind everyone of what the Rafale can do

Rafale - Omnirole configuration

[Karan M]

Kartik - I don't think anybody doubts the capability of the Rafale (superb fighter) or would abuse the French. Though there is a fair bit of ire directed at all the spin emerging blaming it all on India etc whilst trying to sneak in RIL. The bigger issue is how could Dassault & the Indian MOD bungle this up so badly. How could Dassault provide sketchy info for such a bid & yet, the CNC rushed to declare it as L1 & then, proceeds to find out its not L1.

[arthuro]

Karan M,

This information is mere spéculation at This stage. It Is not because its on the internet That it Is true. Lots of russian oriented article recently...they play their card to get the cake but That should not confuse anyone.