Bharat Rakshak

brihaspati wrote: Only two forces really managed some effective military victories on the ancestral populations of this region - Alexander and the Mongols

And the Sikhs of course. Anyway there is a question that I had, how much of Afgan population shows continuity since 500-1000 BCE? We know that most of India is completely continuous.

How about Afghanistan parts?

(Or like Roman/Italians did the older population get completely replaced by Invaders like Goths etc? Or in case of re population of Anatolian peninsula under the Turkish tribes?)

British sojourn in Helmand likened by the US to "...Custer's last stand"!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 147162.ece

US warned Britain: you must send more troops to Afghanistan
(Richard Pohle for The Times)

Soldiers of 16 Air Assault brigade fly by Chinook transport helicopter into Lashka Gha in Helmand province
Michael Evans, Pentagon Correspondent, and Deborah Haynes, Defence Editor

The US Government warned Britain that it was going into Helmand province in 2006 with too few troops, The Times can reveal.

Senior US officials warned that 3,300 soldiers was not sufficient to deal with the Taleban threat in what has become Afghanistan’s most dangerous province, but the advice was not heeded. When British Forces hit the ground they spread themselves too thinly and became pinned down under heavy attack — a tactic the Americans said “was like Custer’s last stand”.

Sanku wrote:

brihaspati wrote: Only two forces really managed some effective military victories on the ancestral populations of this region - Alexander and the Mongols

And the Sikhs of course. Anyway there is a question that I had, how much of Afgan population shows continuity since 500-1000 BCE? We know that most of India is completely continuous.

How about Afghanistan parts?

(Or like Roman/Italians did the older population get completely replaced by Invaders like Goths etc? Or in case of re population of Anatolian peninsula under the Turkish tribes?)

That is my question too. How was Af-Pak region controlled from Bharat-core in pre-alexander times?

brihaspati wrote:Their methods are described in the historical narratives.

What were their methods?

RamaY wrote:
That is my question too. How was Af-Pak region controlled from Bharat-core in pre-alexander times?

I have been wondering the same. Which parts of Af Pak are you referring to? I have been looking through RN Frye's books on pre-Islamic iran, it seems to be that the area was probably a frontier or buffer between Iran and India and I think control has really switched from time to time. The western sides of Af-Pak like Balkh, Baloch, Fergana I believe have been either under Iranian dominion pre-Alexander or independent. The eastern sides, closer to the Indus were probably under control of Gandhara and Sindh before Darius, I don't think they were under a central command in India.

On second thought there was little need for Indics to treat Afghan-Iran region as frontiers of Indic lands as there was little civilizational threat. The conflicts are more at kingdom-level and both sides represented Indic interests.

The change in perspective came with advent of Roman kingdom and its expansion into West-Asia?

That is true, there was no "civilizational" conflict, conflicts appear more political.

surinder wrote:

brihaspati wrote:Their methods are described in the historical narratives.

What were their methods?

Those who resisted were subjected to genocide. Even dogs and cats of the town/settlement/city were killed. Children, women, men.

If Mahabharata is to be interpreted, Gandhara was subjected to "appropriate" measures from the "centre"- for example, Shakuni was the one survivor from his brothers and his father because the Kuru commander decided to provide food only for one in the jail. The dad selected Shakuni to survive and the others voluntarily starved to death.

brihaspati wrote:

surinder wrote:
What were their methods?

Those who resisted were subjected to genocide. Even dogs and cats of the town/settlement/city were killed. Children, women, men.

I believe their tactic was to make a pile of skulls of all the people and animals and invite the surrounding peoples to see it to show what would happen if they resisted.

When Timur invaded Iran similar tactics were used where they made towers of skulls as example.

India’s Strategy in Afghanistan: A Farewell to Dilemmas: Summary

Full Report

India’s immediate challenges in Afghanistan include securing its citizens, dealing with US perspectives on India’s role in the country, and winning back Pashtun sentiments. Close to 3800 Indians work in Afghanistan developmental projects. Indian casualties in Afghanistan, though small, are on the rise. The likelihood of the creation of a forum of regional powers appears remote at the moment and the US does not believe that there is any consensus of opinion about Afghanistan between Iran, Russia, China, India and Pakistan. Given the stakes of the US’ two biggest rivals – China and Russia, and most near-term threat – Iran in the question, the US is unlikely to see such a regional forum as the solution for the Afghan conundrum. Consequently, the only regional actors that are likely to dominate debates about Afghanistan in the capitals of the US-led coalition are India and Pakistan. Hence, US pressure on India to offer concessions to Pakistan is likely to increase.

RamaY wrote:That is my question too. How was Af-Pak region controlled from Bharat-core in pre-alexander times?

I don't think ancient Gandhara was ever controlled by "Bharat-core" (not sure who that even was)

brihaspati wrote:If Mahabharata is to be interpreted, Gandhara was subjected to "appropriate" measures from the "centre"- for example, Shakuni was the one survivor from his brothers and his father because the Kuru commander decided to provide food only for one in the jail. The dad selected Shakuni to survive and the others voluntarily starved to death.

This is the Harikatha effect Bji. The original Mahabharata tells us that Sakuni's father was alive when Dharmaraja did his Rajasuya Yaga. Gandhara king came with presents to Dharmaraja. Shakuni possesses only some tantric powers.

During Aranyavasa, some rishi (is it Agastya?) comes to Pandavas and explains the tantric spell on Dharmaraja and teaches him Aksha Vidya to remove the tantric effects. That is why Shakuni (or Kauravas) didn't call Dharmaraja for Juda second time.

In Mahabharata days Gandhara was a small principality. When no notable king wanted to give their daughter to Dhritarastra, Sakuni's father comes forward in the hope to gain sops from the Bharata-Virat, Bhishma. Only after that Gandhara became important in Bharat.

P.S: The story about keeping only one alive out of 100 sons is about Chandragupta Maurya. It was his father and brothers who were imprisoned by Nandas and given only one person's food. I was to summarize it in my Chanakya book. Folklore brought it into Mahabharata.

***

Even Alexander didn't control Afghanistan for more than few decades before Mauryas reconquered it. I do not think any external Islamic controlled Afghanistan for a prolonged period. Afghanistan appears to be controlled by Islamism only because the entire population is enslaved and converted.

This exactly is what is needed to be done to Afghanistan. Consensual or forced reversion of Afghanistan into Indic faiths.


JMT

Sanjay M wrote:

RamaY wrote:That is my question too. How was Af-Pak region controlled from Bharat-core in pre-alexander times?

I don't think ancient Gandhara was ever controlled by "Bharat-core" (not sure who that even was)

The whole of west-asia including Turkey paid taxes to Bharat-samrats. Read Vyasabharata where Dharmaraja conducts Rajasuya and see which kingdoms and principalities paid taxes to Pandavas.

RamaY wrote:

Sanjay M wrote:

I don't think ancient Gandhara was ever controlled by "Bharat-core" (not sure who that even was)

The whole of west-asia including Turkey paid taxes to Bharat-samrats. Read Vyasabharata where Dharmaraja conducts Rajasuya and see which kingdoms and principalities paid taxes to Pandavas.

Could you post an excerpt if possible? I am interested to know this story.

Britain Reaffirms Support for Afghanistan Effort

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/world ... itain.html

General Forecasts Slower Pace in Afghan War

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/world ... 1nato.html

Carl_T wrote:

RamaY wrote: The whole of west-asia including Turkey paid taxes to Bharat-samrats. Read Vyasabharata where Dharmaraja conducts Rajasuya and see which kingdoms and principalities paid taxes to Pandavas.

Could you post an excerpt if possible? I am interested to know this story.

I heard it on a speech by Sri Malladi Chandrasekhara Sastry. I myself have been trying to get Vyasa Bharata books. Will post it as soon as I get my hands on it.

Sanku wrote:Anyway there is a question that I had, how much of Afgan population shows continuity since 500-1000 BCE? We know that most of India is completely continuous.

How about Afghanistan parts?

(Or like Roman/Italians did the older population get completely replaced by Invaders like Goths etc? Or in case of re population of Anatolian peninsula under the Turkish tribes?)

The second option seems plausible. the demographic flux has always been high in this NW frontier region of India aka Gaandhara.

Gaandhar basically refers to region between Kubha river (kabul) and Bakshu river (amu darya). The regions of Kandahar, Herat etc, might not have under lasting Indian influence. They have traditionally been under Iranian influence. Even in battle of 10 kings in Rigveda, the tribes of anus and Pakthas come from Kubha-Bakshu doab. The conquests mentioned in "Raghuvamsha" of king Raghu whom scholars equate with Chandragupta Vikramaditya also shows expansion of the empire upto Bakshu conquering this doab. So does the initial conquests of Chandragupta Maurya before he received rest of Afghanistan and eastern Iran as part of dowry.

The tribes of Shaka, Kushans, Huns, Mongols, Turks have overran this region on many occasions since then. I do not think that the demographic continuity exists in people from Kubha-Bakshu doab, especially after the mongolian conquests. We however have very strong cultural and civilizational continuity with the doab. After Mongolian conquest, the tendency in this region to control and project a stable power over vast swathes of land for long time has vanished too.

We see no empire after demise of Ghurid empire, primarily because of ferocities of Mongol invasion. The only "empire" we see which was truly Afghan in origin was Durrani empire which lasted as long as life of Ahmadshah Abdali. Durrani empire too did not come out of civilizational shadow of Persia. nor could it fix this problem.

Hence, the genocidal techniques of Mongols have made Gandhar suffer from following two outcomes.
1. Probable wiping out of the native gaandhara people and their replacement with central asians, Iranians and Indians (Punjabis). (This is slightly improbably, but not impossible. The genetic studies on the population of that region will reveal much of the data.)

2. What the mongolian incursions did certainly was to fragment the Gandhara so much that it got stuck in the "rut" of tribalism. The power remained perpetually fragmented thereafter, thanks to kings ruling from delhi. This neither gave them peace (mughals had to try very very hard to keep Pathan areas under their control. Eventually they had to cede northern afghanistan. By the time of aurangzeb, even southern afg became liability) nor did this gave the region any chance to consolidate. Isn't it ironical that since the demise of Shahis, Republic of India is the only government of India in past 1000 years which is showing interest in consolidation of Afghanistan. That too after 9/11, in past decade. Rest all of the GOI's have planned and ensured that the power structure remains fragmented in Kubha-Bakshu doab.

Now, historically, even the ancient Gandharas were fundamentally rebellious people. Even Ashok had to quell the rebellions of Takshashila and Gandhar twice in his life. however, the society wasn't fragmented, and in spite of political continuity from india, the cultural continuity remained amongst the family structure of Gandhar province. Just like rest of India, the life went on in gandhara in spite of political changes. It is the social system which was entrenched which did this job. It was this social system which helped resistance of Afghanistan agaisnt islamization from iran and CAR for very long time. And even after islamization, this system kept afgh consolidated for very long time.

What India needs to do today is to cultivate this continuity in the families of that region. This cannot be done by islamism which seems to be rather popular in that region in current times. The civilizational memory will have to be reactivated, probably by the means of large-scale marital alliances between people from Gandhara and gangetic plains OR surrounding deccan arc.

Atri wrote:
Gaandhar basically refers to region between Kubha river (kabul) and Bakshu river (amu darya). The regions of Kandahar, Herat etc, might not have under lasting Indian influence. They have traditionally been under Iranian influence. Even in battle of 10 kings in Rigveda, the tribes of anus and Pakthas come from Kubha-Bakshu doab. The conquests mentioned in "Raghuvamsha" of king Raghu whom scholars equate with Chandragupta Vikramaditya also shows expansion of the empire upto Bakshu conquering this doab. So does the initial conquests of Chandragupta Maurya before he received rest of Afghanistan and eastern Iran as part of dowry.

I am curious about this part, why do you place Gandhara between the amu darya and Kabul?

I have been thinking that Gandhara was in the northern Indus valley east of the Hindu kush, with Herat/Balkh/Arakosia being the region west of the Hindu kush.

Carl_T wrote:

Atri wrote:
Gaandhar basically refers to region between Kubha river (kabul) and Bakshu river (amu darya). The regions of Kandahar, Herat etc, might not have under lasting Indian influence. They have traditionally been under Iranian influence. Even in battle of 10 kings in Rigveda, the tribes of anus and Pakthas come from Kubha-Bakshu doab. The conquests mentioned in "Raghuvamsha" of king Raghu whom scholars equate with Chandragupta Vikramaditya also shows expansion of the empire upto Bakshu conquering this doab. So does the initial conquests of Chandragupta Maurya before he received rest of Afghanistan and eastern Iran as part of dowry.

I am curious about this part, why do you place Gandhara between the amu darya and Kabul?

I have been thinking that Gandhara was in the northern Indus valley east of the Hindu kush, with Herat/Balkh/Arakosia being the region west of the Hindu kush.

talking about this region...

^^^ Right on top of the Hindu Kush? To the northwest of the circled area you have fergana, where would Gandhara go?

I thought Gandhara was where modern day Qandahar is - hence the name.

Kandahar is too far southwest, and it was most likely in Persian influence as Atri-ji stated. (Although Gandhara itself had been invaded by Darius)

Carl_T wrote:^^^ Right on top of the Hindu Kush? To the northwest of the circled area you have fergana, where would Gandhara go?

I think I should have used a thinner brush..

The river Sindhu marks the boundary between Gandhara and Punjab. At Attock, Kabul river meets Sindhu. On the western coast of Sindhu few miles away lies Peshawar. Attock - Islamabad belt of about 25-30 km is the legendary "Takshashila" of ancient times. when we proceed northwest wards, we have Kubha river coming through the valleys of Hindukush. To south, we have Kramu river (Kurram) flowing eastwards to meet Sindhu.

Thus, we have region encapsulated between Kramu and Kubha stretching towards Northwest. If we extend those lines, to meet at the point where Bakshu turns Northwards, we have the region which I am talking about. There lies Baalhika (balkh) region between Hara-Huna and Gandhara. Hara-Huna as described by kalidasa is the region on the northern banks of Bakshu where Raghu (vikramaditya) defeated Hunas.

The exact location of towns and ancient names and also the courses of rivers might not match. I am giving the rough picture. There is also "Koh-i-baba" range which separates Kabul valley from northern region. Even that is needed to be taken into consideration.

The borders of Kekay and Gandhar have been described differentially in the sources of different times. So does the Kamboja region. With times, Tocharians (Tushara) penetrated the region, so did Turks and Huns. the Kapisa (probably older name of Kabul) also does not match with current "kapisa province" near kabul.

Excerpts from raghuvamsha dealing with northwestern conquests of raghu.... would like to make a map based on this..

अभ्यभूयत वाहानां चरतां गात्रशिञ्जितैः| वर्मभिः पवनोद्धूतराजतालीवनध्वनिः॥ ४-५६
When the war horses are on the move the jangle of accoutrements on their different limbs has outweighed the rustle of the groves of magnificent palm trees that are upheaved by wind.

खर्जूरीस्कन्धनद्धानां मदोद्गारसुगन्धिषु| कटेषु करिणां पेतुः पुंनागेभ्यः शिलीमुखाः॥ ४-५७
Leaving the highly fragrant punnAga flowers honeybees swarmed on the temples, perfumed by the oozing ichor, of the elephants that are tethered to date-palm trees.

अवकाशं किलोदन्वान् रामायाभ्यर्थितो ददौ| अपरान्तमहीपालव्याजेन रघवे करम्॥ ४-५८
At one time when parashu-rAma entreated, they say, the western ocean gave a leeway to him by somewhat receding; but the same ocean now seems to have come forward when a sea of western kings have fretfully come forward to pay tribute to raghu.

मत्तेभरदनोत्कीर्णव्यक्तविक्रमलक्षणम्| त्रिकूटमेव तत्रोच्चैर्जयस्तम्भं चकार सः॥ ४-५९
Without building triumphal arches anew, raghu made Mt. trikUta alone as his lofty tower of victory since his ruttish elephants made dents on the slopes of that mountain with their tusks which, in effect, are the evident hallmarks of his valour.

पारसीकांस्ततो जेतुं प्रतस्थे स्थलवर्त्मना| इन्द्रियाख्यानिव रिपूंस्तत्त्वज्ञानेन संयमी॥ ४-६०
raghu then proceeded by a land route to conquer the pArasIka kings just as a self-controlled yogi possessing divine knowledge proceeds to conquer his own enemies, called his own senses. Persian kings according to commentator Sumantivijaya are Mlechha kings living to the west of Sindhu..

यवनीमुखपद्मानां सेहे मधुमदं न सः| बालातपमिवाब्जानामकालजलदोदयः ॥ ४-६१
As to how an untimely cloud removes morning sunlight from the faces of just blooming lotuses, raghu has also removed the blooming flush of wine from the lotus-like faces of yavana women when he encountered their men.

सङ्ग्रामस्तुमुलस्तस्य पाश्चात्यैरश्वसाधनैः| शार्ङ्गकूजितविज्ञेयप्रतियोधे रजस्यभूत्॥ ४-६२
Then a tumultuous battle ensued between raghu and the westerners who possess cavalry as their war paraphernalia in a canopy of massive dust wherein the opposing warriors could recognise each other just by the nature of the twanging of their bows. The poet means to imply that the battle waged so furiously that the fighting men could hardly distinguish each other; secondly, to hint at the great superiority in archery on the part of raghu's soldiers.

भल्लापवर्जितैस्तेषां शिरोभिः श्मश्रुलैर्महीम्| तस्तार सरघाव्याप्तैः स क्षौद्रपटलैरिव॥ ४-६३
raghu covered the ground with the bearded heads of westerners that are cut off with spear-like arrows, as if they are the sheaves of honeycombs swarming with bees.

Definitely Persians. Yavans = Persians in Raghuvamsha.

अपनीतशिरस्त्राणाः शेषास्तं शरणं ययुः| प्रणिपातप्रतीकारः संरम्भो हि महात्मनाम्॥ ४-६४
And the survivors sought the protection of raghu on removing their helmets, and the anger of the generous will be readily appeased by submission, isn't it!

विनयन्ते स्म तद्योधा मधुभिर्विजयश्रमम्| आस्तीर्णाजिनरत्नासु द्राक्षावलयभूमिषु॥ ४-६५
raghu's soldiers removed their fatigue of victory by means of wine, while sitting on excellent antelope skins spread on the grounds of grape-orchards.

ततः प्रतस्थे कौबेरीं भास्वानिव रघुर्दिशम्| शरैरुस्रैरिवोदीच्यानुद्धरिष्यन् रसानिव॥ ४-६६
As to how the sun squeezes water with his sharp arrows like sunrays in northern solstice, raghu proceeded to north to squeeze the kings of north with his sharp sunrays like arrows.

विनीताध्वश्रमास्तस्य सिन्धुतीरविचेष्टनैः| दुधुवुर्वाजिनः स्कन्धाम्ल्लग्नकुङ्कुमकेसरान्॥ ४-६७
raghu's horses having refreshed themselves by rolling on the banks of River sindhu shook off the filaments of saffron stuck on their shoulders. The river is Modern Amudarya. Based on following two verses. He is entering amu darya basin from south-west (Persia). based on saffron of Persia which was on the soldiers of raghu has been famous since ages.

तत्र हूणावरोधानां भर्तृषु व्यक्तविक्रमम्| कपोलपाटलादेशि बभूव रघुचेष्टितम्॥ ४-६८
The cheeks of huNa women glowed with embarrassment by the action of raghu in waging war with their husbands and that flush itself appeared as an index to raghu s valour.

काम्बोजाः समरे सोढुं तस्य वीर्यमनीश्वराः| गजालानपरिक्लिष्टैरक्षोटैः सार्धमानताः॥ ४-६९
Along with the walnut trees that are bending their treetops unable to withstand the pull and push of elephants tied to them with halters, the kings of kAmboja too bent their heads down before raghu in token of their submission unable to withstand his bravery in battle.

तेषां सदश्वभूयिष्ठास्तुङ्गा द्रविणराशयः| उपदा विविशुः शश्वन्नोत्सेकाः कोसलेश्वरम्॥ ४-७०
Large heaps of gold together with numerous thorough bred horses constantly reached the lord of kosala kingdom namely raghu, from those kAmboja kings, but pride never came near him.

ततो गौरीगुरुं शैलमारुरोहाश्वसाधनः| वर्धयन्निव तत्कूटानुद्धूतैर्धातुरेणुभिः॥ ४-७१
Then raghu ascended the Himalayan mountain, the father of gauri, or pAravati, using cavalry as main mode of operation, and in doing so the dust raised by the hooves of horses from the minerals of mountain soared high by which raghu appeared to have heightened Himalaya mountain.

शशंस तुल्यसत्त्वानां सैन्यघोषेऽप्यसंभ्रमम्| गुहाशयानां सिंहानां परिवृत्यावलोकितम्॥ ४-७२
Even if the army's noise is tumultuous, lions lying at length in caves gazed at the army from their prone position with their half-raised necks at that army which indicated the perfect indifference of reposing lions towards that army because they are equal to it in their courage

भूर्जेषु मर्मरीभूताः कीचकध्वनिहेतवः| गङ्गाशीकरिणो मार्गे मरुतस्तं सिषेविरे॥ ४-७३
The soft breeze causing murmuring rustle in the leavers of birch trees and melodious sounds in bamboo trees, and surcharged with the coolness of the sprays of River ganga has adored raghu on his way.

Can you both x-post all the relevant ones in the Distorted Hisotry thread for archival puropses?

Thanks, ramana

Carl_T, any more such maps?

^
Ramanaji

Do you know about this site? This guy is doing some nice job with historical maps.
http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/maps.html

Carl_T wrote:I believe their tactic was to make a pile of skulls of all the people and animals and invite the surrounding peoples to see it to show what would happen if they resisted.

When Timur invaded Iran similar tactics were used where they made towers of skulls as example.

Those were Mongol tactics. Did the Greeks use similar tactics?

Thinking about it, pre-historic Persia is a Indic kingdom IMHO.

surinder wrote:

Carl_T wrote:I believe their tactic was to make a pile of skulls of all the people and animals and invite the surrounding peoples to see it to show what would happen if they resisted.

When Timur invaded Iran similar tactics were used where they made towers of skulls as example.

Those were Mongol tactics. Did the Greeks use similar tactics?

Yes Arian says so - once in Afghan territory and again in India - when resisted.

RamaY try this site.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/schwartzberg/

I dont know how to copy the map.

Yavans = Persians in Raghuvamsha.


Perhaps Ionians, Greeks.

Thanks Ramanaji. I will have them printed in Kinkos and put on my wall

Karzai Turning Into a Kaangressman:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/12/world ... gewanted=2

A senior NATO official said the resignations of Mr. Atmar and Mr. Saleh, who had strong support from the NATO allies, was “extremely disruptive.”

The official said of Mr. Karzai, “My concern is, is he capable of being a wartime leader?”

NATO opens northern supply route to Afghanistan via Russia, Central Asia

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/ ... 30374.html

Big Brave Taliban Execute 7-Year Old for 'Spying'

Not one muslim seems to have come out on the street to protest this in any country in the world.

Guess there are more important things to do - like protesting the "everybody draw mohammad day".

sanjaykumar wrote:Yavans = Persians in Raghuvamsha.


Perhaps Ionians, Greeks.

Thats right.

chaanakya wrote:

sanjaykumar wrote:Yavans = Persians in Raghuvamsha.


Perhaps Ionians, Greeks.

Thats right.

Yes, Yavana=Greek is more appropriate. Greeks imported lots of Black Pepper from South India and it was referred as "Yavanapriya". May be any greek offshoots were also called as Yavanas...But this account assumed Pre-Muhammad Arabs were also sometimes called as Yavanas...

Black pepper was also a favourite of the Romans. And the Germanic tribes (there has even been a famous city ransomed for tonnes of black pepper). So if Kalidasa is post CE, then even Romans could be included.

To be fair on Indians, most of thsoe trading overland and oversea through the IOR coastal route were a pot-pourri of various nationalities or ethnicities - with Greeks, Italians, Syrians, Anatolians, Egyptians, and of course the the then southern coastal Arabians - the Sabataens - all involved. So it is likely that the term would be used in a loose and broad category for almost all Mediterranean populations.