Sri Lanka - News and Discussion

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Feb 2013 22:51

For reasons of political correctness, in hard analysis there is no need to be silent on the role religion plays, and how religion is used by outside powers.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 22 Feb 2013 22:56

RajeshA, I am talking about the killing of the Child here. There is no need to bring in religion to analyze that issue.

I do understand the deep religious division that exist in SriLanka and how local and foreign powers exploit those divisions for their own purposes. I have also read several years back that VP and gang voluntarily converted to Christianity to get funds and support from EJ folks. It was not just one sided, I heard. It was convenient for both the parties.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Feb 2013 22:58

rgsrini ji,

by hard analysis I was referring to Strategic Issues. Sorry for any lack of clarity.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Feb 2013 23:01

chetak wrote: It is not so much xtian as the xtian leadership of the ltte that is also aimed as much at the Indian landmass as the lankan landmass. eelam is still out there, simmering softly for now but not forgotten.

Any number of Indians and foreigners are stridently screaming in international fora that we are ill treating our minorities. Who is the final arbitrator? Us or them??

Extend the same courtesy to the lankans. We should learn to separate the propaganda and the realpolitik.

If the amrekis intervened in Indian affairs WTF would we do?

Would there be ANYONE on this forum supporting the amrekis? I think not.

India and moral high ground? Get real, saar. Our moral high ground is occupied by such lofty mahatmas like A Raja, Kalmadi, kanimohzi, karunanidhi, lallu yadav & the incomparable mms and their ilk

You seem to be still hung on JUST LTTE. The larger issue is not about LTTE or its leadership. The larger issue is about SL and how it treats its citizens. What do you think is propaganda? You think decades of harassment and second class treatment is propaganda?

Realpolitik? I am talking real politics only saar. In those days, people in Madras (probably elsewhere) would be scared to give house on rent to Srilankan tamil refugees. For all the camaraderie, the situation was tough for the refugees and crime rate was high - at least the perceived ones. TN was affected by the refugee problem, and so did the nation. It is realpolitik that made India help these organizations for decades, and then send in IPKF and then eventual pussyfooting. In the process India got its former PM murdered too.

America and India are not equal equal. India, in my mind has a better moral ground to stand than any other country.

I see you did not answer my emotive question; considering what is happening in SL is almost in India's backyard it is India's interests to solve or help SL solve the problem. It is "Indian Interests", are we going to UN for this?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Feb 2013 23:05

Calling something christian seems to been an insult of some kind. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one....

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Feb 2013 23:07

Theo_Fidel wrote:LTTE was a secular organization. It never cared about the religious identity of its members. It was come one come all, preferably with dollah and AK-47.
AFAIK it was a Tamil terrorist group and never identified itself as a Hindu terrorist group. This attempt to tar it as a Christian organization is baffling. What exactly is gained?

Cutting and pasting endless series of innuendo does not change that....

Let me tell you what can be gained by connecting dots, and also draw a larger picture.

1. LTTE is a terrorist organization.
2. Its leadership are either Christians or Crypto-Christians.
3. The leadership are helped by European Churches and trouble making governments.
4. They eventually want to create a separate tamil land with tamil christians in SL.
5. This "homeland" in SL, will inspire the Southern TN (with even more Christian population) to raise demand for an "unification" of the 'tamil homeland'.
6. This will either carve a territory out of TN (and thereby India) or cause the entire TN to be separated from India and join this 'homeland'.
7. One can see signs by the massive EJ money pouring into Madras and TN.

It sounds logical to some who do not know tamilians or tamil nadu. Silapaerukku, karthadhu elam paei.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Feb 2013 23:11

Surya wrote: better an ahole who identifies with India than someone outside based on ethnic links

It does not matter if they were worshiping Flying Spaghetti Monster, spoke Kingon and are Na'vi; or would BRF approve of Indian support only if they were non-tamilians?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Feb 2013 23:17

SwamyG wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:LTTE was a secular organization. It never cared about the religious identity of its members. It was come one come all, preferably with dollah and AK-47.
AFAIK it was a Tamil terrorist group and never identified itself as a Hindu terrorist group. This attempt to tar it as a Christian organization is baffling. What exactly is gained?

Cutting and pasting endless series of innuendo does not change that....
Let me tell you what can be gained by connecting dots, and also draw a larger picture.

1. LTTE is a terrorist organization.
2. Its leadership are either Christians or Crypto-Christians.
3. The leadership are helped by European Churches and trouble making governments.
4. They eventually want to create a separate tamil land with tamil christians in SL.
5. This "homeland" in SL, will inspire the Southern TN (with even more Christian population) to raise demand for an "unification" of the 'tamil homeland'.
6. This will either carve a territory out of TN (and thereby India) or cause the entire TN to be separated from India and join this 'homeland'.
7. One can see signs by the massive EJ money pouring into Madras and TN.

It sounds logical to some who do not know tamilians or tamil nadu. Silapaerukku, karthadhu elam paei.

May be it was not just the Christian allegiance of the LTTE which made the waters murky for India, but also the Periyar politics of TN and the EJ activity there. Or may be the Christian dynasty in Delhi thought that if they were to allow this to proceed as you formulated the scenario, it would have a backlash in India and then the dynasty may lose all power!

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Feb 2013 23:24

Deleted my senseless rant.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Feb 2013 23:39

Holy cow! Talk about a tour-de-force of accusations. One wishes christians in TN were this powerful. Mostly we are ignored as not having the votes to be relavant.
Tamilzh roots independent of sankrit is now an issue.

So murugan worship is now a cult. What the....

Still this all OT here...

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Feb 2013 23:41

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Feb 2013 23:55

So christians will NEVER be that powerful yet they created the LTTE single hand in defiance of 2 large states, have committed massive social engineering, encouraged TN to secede, rediscovered Tamilzh literature single handed(ignoring those temple transcribers of sangam literature, what poor saps), inspired a challenge to hindu civilization....

What next, make a man walk on water, no wait hmm......

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Feb 2013 23:59

Theo saar,
Have you heard of the British Empire,the western missionaries,the preferential treatment which still survives in St Xaviers in Palayamkottai,St Johns,Bishop Hebers,St Joosephs in Tiruchi,Loyola,MCC,Tambaram,CMC Vellore,St Marthas Bengaluru.

Amplify it a million times in the much smaller physical space of eezham and colombo.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 23 Feb 2013 00:05

Theo_Fidel wrote:So christians will NEVER be that powerful yet they created the LTTE single hand in defiance of 2 large states, have committed massive social engineering, encouraged TN to secede, rediscovered Tamilzh literature single handed(ignoring those temple transcribers of sangam literature, what poor saps), inspired a challenge to hindu civilization....

What next, make a man walk on water, no wait hmm......

Please read Rajiv Malhotra's Breaking India. The threat is from the multi-national corporation called Vatican with turnover of billions of dollars. It is the second largest land owner in India after Railways. Last heard, the Christians were sending 2.5 billion dollars to India every year for "charity work."

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2013 00:06

varunkumar wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:So christians will NEVER be that powerful yet they created the LTTE single hand in defiance of 2 large states, have committed massive social engineering, encouraged TN to secede, rediscovered Tamilzh literature single handed(ignoring those temple transcribers of sangam literature, what poor saps), inspired a challenge to hindu civilization....

What next, make a man walk on water, no wait hmm......
Please read Rajiv Malhotra's Breaking India.

Co-authored with Aravindan Neelakandan.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 23 Feb 2013 00:10

Theo_Fidel wrote:Calling something christian seems to been an insult of some kind. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one....

Many Christians would consider it an insult if someone called them a Hindu.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Feb 2013 00:13

Theo_Fidel wrote:Holy cow! Talk about a tour-de-force of accusations. One wishes christians in TN were this powerful. Mostly we are ignored as not having the votes to be relavant.
Tamilzh roots independent of sankrit is now an issue.

So murugan worship is now a cult. What the....

Still this all OT here...

Saar, actually none of it is OT. I hope you did not think I was making those connections, I pointed out such thoughts. Religion and ethnicity is smack in the middle of this problem, and one cannot solve the issue with out jumping into that mix.

People will help those humans because they are fellow tamilians.
People will help those humans because they are fellow Hindus.
People will help those humans because they are fellow Christians.
People will help those humans because they are neighbors to India.
People will NOT help those humans because they ARE tamilians.
People will NOT help those humans because some of THEM ARE Christians.
People will NOT help those humans because they fear Dravidian "upraising" {a.k.a Homeland}

Ultimately help is offered or not offered based on the implications to India and other emotional issues.

Hence, I say.....make SL part of India; and allow pluralism to take over that new state. The new state should be called 'Swarna Deepam'. India is going to be like those empty nesters in West, all its former regions are moving away and the politicians go after one scam to another. And others do not know to help or not. Meanwhile innocent people get killed.

Do you want to bet on the direction of arguments if the Sinhalese were Christians, and the tamilians were Hindus (the majority still are). On second thoughts some of the Tamil Christians would be supporting the Sinhalese Christians.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Feb 2013 00:15

varunkumar wrote:Last heard, the Christians were sending 2.5 billion dollars to India every year for "charity work."

Isn't that what Tirupati takes in in a bad year. I'm still not seeing it.
I will admit the more extreme conversion groups are nuts. But that in itself should tell you how crazy incompetent they are...

After 200 years of missionary work my community is still 10% christian. Exactly what they were in 1850. What kind of results are these.

Many CSI christians would also consider it and insult to be called a pentecostal. For that matter many years ago my Grand pa who was syrian christian was so insulted by some one misidentifying him that he walked out of the wedding with his daughter, my mom who was the bride. Indians are touchy about their identities. what is your point.

Again sorry for the OT.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2013 00:17

SwamyG wrote:Hence, I say.....make SL part of India; and allow pluralism to take over that new state. The new state should be called 'Swarna Deepam'.

Yes but then there is allergy to the D word, a possible common denominator.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Feb 2013 00:18

While Breaking India book is very good, I have a signed copy. One has to take some of this thoughts with a grain (if not a truck load) of salt.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Feb 2013 00:20

For sri lanka to become a part of India they will have to give up their singhala buddhist racism. They are not ready to do that.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2013 00:22

Theo_Fidel wrote:For sri lanka to become a part of India they will have to give up their singhala buddhist racism. They are not ready to do that.

Give them a stake in the Buddhist corridor in Bihar!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Feb 2013 00:22

RajeshA wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Hence, I say.....make SL part of India; and allow pluralism to take over that new state. The new state should be called 'Swarna Deepam'.
Yes but then there is allergy to the D word, a possible common denominator.

How did America go about making Hawaii a state. Granted that was a century ago; and no one bothered about it. And if India was going to pull in SL, the entire NGO industry in India would be the first to cry hoarse. Not to omit the Western powers, which will find hazaar reasons.

I know my expectation is really a stretch and never gonna happen. But India needs to pull SL leaders aside and reiterate: "Dudes, get your house in order, or else....we will ferment trouble and carve out a territory. Your call."

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Feb 2013 00:22

It does not matter if they were worshiping Flying Spaghetti Monster, spoke Kingon and are Na'vi; or would BRF approve of Indian support only if they were non-tamilians?

swamyg not sure how you read it???

I will not speak for BR

i will speak for myself

I see myself backing whats right for India.
I do not care if an external group is linked to whatever ethnicity in some part of India - if they have abused us - support to them will not come at the cost of other Indians or indian foreign policy or strategic considerations

it applies to Tamils in Sl, applies to Indians in fiji, sikhs etc

by extension if there are no ethnic links from an external group but they have been extremely supportive of Indian strategic interests then they deserve support

so to answer Indian support depends on what the relation to India has been and India's strategic concerns.

regards

NOTE:

before you misread it - wrt SL Tamils - my problem is with LTTE and ltte supporters.

I do think we have role to push the GOSL to deal with the Tamil issue

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2013 00:34

SwamyG wrote:How did America go about making Hawaii a state. Granted that was a century ago; and no one bothered about it. And if India was going to pull in SL, the entire NGO industry in India would be the first to cry hoarse. Not to omit the Western powers, which will find hazaar reasons.

I know my expectation is really a stretch and never gonna happen. But India needs to pull SL leaders aside and reiterate: "Dudes, get your house in order, or else....we will ferment trouble and carve out a territory. Your call."

As you said, those days are over!

One can do something like that to a country with a dictatorship, which is hostile to you, has used terrorism against you, or threatens you with WMD, where you can walk in, kick the regime, do some nation-building and you're welcomed with flowers.

Nothing like that is possible in Sri Lanka, unless of course Chinese open up a military base there, and we decide to move in because we feel threatened, but even then there would be sovereignty issues.

Sorry that is the wrong model. The model to go for would be where the Sri Lankans themselves feel strongly about joining India and that is possible when their religious right becomes very keen on it and can mold public opinion. One needs to win over their religious right, with many many sops, training, promoting our supporters in the various orgs there, and building strong religious ties between the two countries. That requires a dispensation in India which knows how to play this.

Let's say Saudi Arabia proposes to Pakistan to join it, would the Pakis refuse?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Feb 2013 00:37

Surya wrote:I see myself backing whats right for India.

Is this something Indians get an input on or is it decided on some need to know basis.
Personally I don’t think it is in India’s interest to have a racist unstable state on its margin…

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 23 Feb 2013 01:02

This discussion is going awry ...
No country and No people will willingly give up even a modicum of their present freedoms unless a greater threat exists which aims to destroy those freedoms completely and permanently .

If they are unwillingly made to give up those freedoms it will only lead to resentment and animosity precluding a fruitful partnership arising between us when such a defense against a common enemy is really required .

So lets stop all this useless talk on the lines of
"lets make SL part of India like massa did for Hawaii" etc

Below is an oft repeated cliche , yet ill repeat it..
1st Economic Integration - Even as of today i see many SL sourced products in supermarket shelves and probably they too see a lot of Indian sourced products - such mutual economic interests will surely lead to a future of economic integration : common markets common customs common currency et al

Simultaneous to above there is the people to people interaction - through visaless travel for tourism , education , commerce et al

Simultaneous to the above but with a relatively lesser pace comes in the security partnership - where common interests will be agreed to be defended by a common force.

That's it and there is nothing much to go ahead from that point .
There is definitely no need to think of coming under a single union .

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Feb 2013 01:16

Surya: I hope I did not misunderstand you, all confusions , if at all are mois. Your points in BRF are mostly logical....so I take it seriously.

The way I read your post was that you were accusing another BRFite (or generally tamilians) supporting SL tamilians because of ethnicity. If I read that correctly, then my poser is essentially "so what if that is a reason?". I will add that reason should be validated by the governments to ensure it is worthwhile.

If I read you correctly, you are saying "Do something, if it aligns with Indian interests". I have no problem with that. And I am not an LTTE supporter, was never. Nor a tamil fanatic. I am suggesting India needs to look at humanitarian reasons as well, because SL is next door onlee.

We cool

?

Rajesh: Your model will not work, because SL is rabid like Pakistan. Can one reason with them? Or make India an heaven for them to voluntarily come "home"? Never going to happen in our life time.

Lilo saar: If your child is throwing tantrum, you take control. If your neighbor is throwing tantrum, you complain to the officials. If the officials do not act, you either move away or force your neighbor to behave.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Feb 2013 03:49

I am suggesting India needs to look at humanitarian reasons as well, because SL is next door onlee.

partly yes but the assorted *MKs and supporters are not helping by raking the ltte \ war issues, human rights yada yada

stopping military training, or business links etc is taking away the GOIs options to deal with SL and bring it on our orbit

the war issues are over and raking them points to motives in sustaining certain elements and interests.
without those pressures if I was GOI I would intervened in specific plans - like bring over child soldiers for rehab, monitor resettlement programs jointly etc and then the carrot of linked rail and road etc.

Instead we react and SL can play others against us plus we are allowing the crooked HR concerns of certain western elements on our doorstep which had none of the concerns when they blazed through Iraq killing many times over.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Feb 2013 04:25

Surya wrote: better an ahole who identifies with India than someone outside based on ethnic links

that must have stung

Some random person on the internet calls me a traitor. Let me go sulk. Lol.

Get over yourself. If i let random people affect me, i would have become like you.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Feb 2013 04:31

Let me ask another thing.

Say a group of US citizens of Indian origin are harassed by xenophobic groups bent on race/religion chauvinism. Many get killed. Many become refugees. They are still not able to live in peace.

Would anyone be saying

- these are US citizens. Not our problem.

Would anyone expessing any identification with the ordinary people suffering - be accused of being a traitor to India?

Why the double standards?

And then we go ahead and open threads about "soft power", "indian footprint" and write gazillion bazillion posts. Ack thoo.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Feb 2013 04:41

SwamyG - going by the dharma experts, international crypto christian identifier experts, indian patriotism experts etc

Indians are allowed to feel for indians anywhere in the world, even if they become citizens of other countries, but that luxury is not for the goddamned tamils. Who knows what they are doing down there with their crypto xtian money flowing in and all.

Many such eggspurts also tell us that US has oppressed india but strangely those of us who have taken US citizenship are still counted as indian. SL tamils need not be thought of as indians. I don't think so, nor do i want them to be a part of proper india - unless thats what they want.

But what is wrong with having a little sympathy for their plight, even while being against LTTE and its contribution to their plight.

If that makes me anti indian, so be it.

As i always say - i dont need any certificate from anybody.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Feb 2013 04:43

Surya: Good, so you are for helping other humans. Your concern is the way some political parties behave; and you would like India to adopt certain tactics and have a long term strategy. All fine onlee....and no disagreements.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 Feb 2013 05:47

Gus wrote: As i always say - i dont need any certificate from anybody.

I just got a shipment of certificates today and am busy doing craft with them.

I make these springy little origami goats, that jump from crag to crag of this large pile of bious books that got prescribed. Great fun at the kave kamplex.

Engaging a significant segment of India's population, rather then labeling them is so passe, Gus-saar.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Feb 2013 09:47

Theo_Fidel wrote:So christians will NEVER be that powerful yet they created the LTTE single hand in defiance of 2 large states, have committed massive social engineering, encouraged TN to secede, rediscovered Tamilzh literature single handed(ignoring those temple transcribers of sangam literature, what poor saps), inspired a challenge to hindu civilization....

What next, make a man walk on water, no wait hmm......

Undeniably there has been massive social engineering in TN. Dravidian and AIT stooges have muddied the waters there and have actively created an "oppressed" race where none actually existed. The EJs have misappropriated ancient literature not their own and have mischievously created roots to "prove" their fallacious theories.

This has been going on for the better part of a century or more with all kinds of "scholars" who emerged out of the woodwork.

Even today we are being subjected to a barrage of propaganda. The EJs have falsely embedded themselves in the historic and cultural narrative of another. St Thomas and his exploits in TN was denied by the vatican but is still being pushed today by interested parties.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Feb 2013 09:51

varunkumar wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:Calling something christian seems to been an insult of some kind. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one....
Many Christians would consider it an insult if someone called them a Hindu.

But surprisingly, these very people are never chary of sporting a purely non xtian name

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2013 11:16

Gus wrote:going by the dharma experts, international crypto christian identifier experts, indian patriotism experts etc

Indians are allowed to feel for indians anywhere in the world, even if they become citizens of other countries, but that luxury is not for the goddamned tamils. Who knows what they are doing down there with their crypto xtian money flowing in and all.

Many such eggspurts also tell us that US has oppressed india but strangely those of us who have taken US citizenship are still counted as indian. SL tamils need not be thought of as indians. I don't think so, nor do i want them to be a part of proper india - unless thats what they want.

There is a logical fallacy here.

In the United States, Indians residing there are clearly outside Bharatvarsha, and it is for Bharatiyas to express solidarity with them. Sri Lanka is part of Bharatvarsha, so the two warring "tribes" there - the Sinhalese and the Sri Lankan Tamils are both part of Bharatiya Family, especially as they are still of Dharmic persuasion - Buddhists and Sanatanics.

So one would tend not to take sides.

Gus wrote:But what is wrong with having a little sympathy for their plight, even while being against LTTE and its contribution to their plight.

Has anybody here rejected the notion of sympathy for the plight of Sri Lankan Tamils? So why the straw-man argument?

India should be an active player in getting Sinhalese and Sri Lankan Tamils to kiss and make up and to improve the condition of the Tamils there.

Gus wrote:If that makes me anti indian, so be it.

As i always say - i dont need any certificate from anybody.

Since you have yourself given yourself the certificate, others can't really be bothered to.

BTW, you will find Bulgarian to be an interesting language, once you look up the meaning of your name there.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Feb 2013 11:16

SwamyG wrote:
I see you did not answer my emotive question; considering what is happening in SL is almost in India's backyard it is India's interests to solve or help SL solve the problem. It is "Indian Interests", are we going to UN for this?

SwamyG saar,

I have no answer for that particular question, which is why I say that we lay off srilanka and it's internal affairs. Sympathize all you want but do not harm lankan interests in some silly UN vote thinggy. This is a double edged sword that will cut us deeply very soon. Speak privately if you will to them but do not take any public steps that becomes irrevocable, especially under pressure from some silly motivated TN gang which does not have India's best interest at heart and are playing some dirge that someone offshore is paying them to play. Karunanidhi needs MMS like never before. Amma is comfortably waiting like a basking crocodile and the old buggers in the TN political cesspool can feel the warm fetid breath. The kangressi lot in Delhi cannot be destabilized by dhothiwallas in TN. Any destabilization now will set off a fratricidal and savage internecine warfare and there may well be no survivors, leaving Amma a clear field for at least 8-10 years to come.

Exactly how do you propose that we do it?

What if someone else uses the very same method as you propose, to interfere in our internal affairs, claiming "XXXXX Country interests"

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Feb 2013 16:55

Persisting on this thread on dharma - people are going to be banned and the thread is going to be deleted. Enough. There is a thread to discuss Dharma, etc. Please take it there. Who started it or who ended it is not of concern. Admins have enough hassles other than sifting through reams of what is often complete nonsense. This is the Sri Lanka thread.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Feb 2013 23:31

RajeshA wrote: Since you have yourself given yourself the certificate, others can't really be bothered to.

say what you want to say instead of hiding behind others words. some thinker you are...when you can't even express what it is that you actually think.

BTW, you will find Bulgarian to be an interesting language, once you look up the meaning of your name there

gus is a nickname.

this is getting really stupid.

i mean are you really that dumb to think that an internet name is my real name...