Indian Space Program Discussion

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 15 Jul 2011 20:12

Congrats. ISRO!! This agency is truly a role model for all of India.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 15 Jul 2011 21:11

"To me this persistent need for Indians to thumb their nose at Pakis when something good happens in India is the surest sign that Indians are deeply upset at the mockery and want to prove that India is better.."

Would you say the same sentiment exists with respect to the British i.e the usual cowboys and yahoos who raise the question of British aid to India, and somehow link that aid with India's space programme? Or is the feeling less acute or strong when the British do the mockery, because overall Indians do have a higher regard for the British. And the comments are seen as the rantings of a few ignoramuses, nothing more?

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 15 Jul 2011 21:53

@ shiv
Is it really possible to extend the range or a ballistic missile by decreasing the payload? If so, is it trivial?

Am no expert in rocketary/missiles launch. What I know is through the interactions I had with SHAR people during launches.

But logically what you say should be possible. Afterall PSLV which is designed for 1000 kms orbit was used for Chandrayaan. After the the launch in a proper orbit by the rocket the satellite is self propelled to the desired orbit.

But it is an interesting point and perhaps a discussion by missile gurus is not a bad idea.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Jul 2011 21:56

Its an XL

PSLV-C17 Launches GSAT-12 Satellite

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 15 Jul 2011 22:38

apparently neither the launch vehicle nor the satellites were insured... is this a norm..?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 15 Jul 2011 22:50

prithvi wrote:apparently neither the launch vehicle nor the satellites were insured... is this a norm..?

Yes. No company insures satellite launches on Indian launch vehicles (PSLV, GSLV). But, launches of Indian satellites on Ariane-5 for example are insured. It's shared by GOI and Allianz insurance iirc. A private insurer like Allianz will only insure launches on the most reliable of launch vehicles, that too with a high premium.

I see no problem in all the satellites launched on PSLV being insured by the same group. It has a very good reliability (but not as much as the Ariane family). The case in different for GSLV though!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jul 2011 23:29

The more we launch with less dependencies the more we can cover the insurance within our program itself. The insurance costs itself could be used for another project.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Jul 2011 01:53

ISRO to flight test indigenous cryogenic state next June.

ISRO will flight test its indigenously developed cryogenic engine onboard a Geo-Synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle by mid-2012.

"Our target is to launch the GSLV (D5) by June 2012 with indigenously developed cryogenic engine. Currently, a series of ground testing are on," Indian Space Research Organisation Chairman K Radhakrishnan told reporters here.

Speaking after the successful launch of GSAT-12 onboard homegrown PSLV-C17 from here, he said the GSLV rocket would be used to launch communication satellite GSAT-14.

"We have had two failures GSLV-F06 and GSLV-D3. We have identified the reasons and corrective actions are being taken," he said.

GSLV-F06 was used to launch communications satellite GSAT-5P in December 2010 while GSLV-D3 to launch GSAT-4 in April 2010, but both missions failed following some problems in the complex cryogenic stage.

On the progress of Chandrayaan-II mission , ISRO Space Commission Member and Director T K Alex said it was expected in the beginning of 2014.

"It is in progress. This time we are examining the lander, rover and the orbitor. The designing stage has been completed. The prototype of the rover is being made in Bangalore and the testing is going on," he said.

Russian Space Agency was involved in the developing of the rover. "By 2014 beginning, GSLV will launch Chandrayaan-2, estimated to cost Rs 425 crore", he said.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 02:47

Vipul wrote:A woman scientist is responsible for the successful functioning of India's latest communication satellite GSAT-12, launched Friday from the space port here, 80 km north of Tamil Nadu's capital Chennai.

TK Anuradha, the first woman ever to be the satellite project director at the country's space agency, specialises in satellite checkout systems, electronic checking of satellite's performance in space, an ISRO official told IANS.

DDM Strikes again... I am noway demeaning her contribution to GSAT-12 or to ISRO in general but in this Mission her role was on the satellite and NOT ON THE LAUNCH VEHICLE.
Vipul, DDM might gloss over this vital detail but detail NAZIS in BRF catch these details... If you the launch control room there were hundreds of people involved with the success of the launch per-se. ET has a rather decent article but chose a rather flashy title to get eyeballs. It definitely got the planned attention!!!
Devil is the detail man!!!

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 16 Jul 2011 06:33

shiv wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Can imagine that in some unmentionable forums anger and disbelief, see that SDRE is lying about sucess, it was 8KM away , what a failure onlee .offcourse the intrecasis and distances involved, satellitte using onboard fuel to manuvere to the correct position is beyond thier intellectual capacity to be understood.[/size]
Saar why do we SDREs need to imagine that Pakis are unhappy or jealous to feel more happy about ourselves? This is a firm grip that Pakis have on us and I have seen this among Indians online on BRF from 1997-98. Seems to be some deep insecurity IMO.

It is not insecurity thing Saar. It is that extra punch.......more maza

It is like adding Tabasco over pizza.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jul 2011 06:53

rsingh wrote: It is not insecurity thing Saar. It is that extra punch.......more maza It is like adding Tabasco over pizza.

So India being one up on Pakistan gives more pleasure. That sure sets a high bar to cross for Indians.

To me it indicates Indian mediocrity- like finding a half used packet of ketchup along with a partially eaten pizza in the garbage bin and expressing joy at the added treat

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 16 Jul 2011 07:03

The word "Propellant" is only used for Solid stage. For Liquid / Cryogenic stages, the word "Fuel" is used. The solid stages will have the propellants when they are integated with the launch vehicle. However Liquid / Cryo are fuelled later

I flew over Sriharikota last month when I had to attend a function at Vizag. I specially booked the aircraft seats that will give a glimpse of the launch station. I could spot the launch pads very easily. Lot of my old memories came to me

Also I am quite happy that PSLV launches only occupy a small column in the newspapers that to tucked in inside pages. Truly PSLV has made success synonymous with it

Way to go ISRO and its personal

I would like to see ISRO using more powerful launch vehicles rather than having lighter launch vehicles like PSLV-3S and PSLV-CA. Each launch is great effort and it is better to make best use of it by having powerful vehivles to deliver. It also saves money

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 07:09

shiv wrote:
rsingh wrote:It is not insecurity thing Saar. It is that extra punch.......more maza It is like adding Tabasco over pizza.
So India being one up on Pakistan gives more pleasure. That sure sets a high bar to cross for Indians.
To me it indicates Indian mediocrity- like finding a half used packet of ketchup along with a partially eaten pizza in the garbage bin and expressing joy at the added treat

Dr. Shiv your cynicism is surprising...I don't exactly understand the collective gushing from our fellow rakshaks which seem to go on and on... but at the same time your cynicism today is just not you...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2011 07:11

Woman power to the fore at Hassan, MCF

It will be women power to the fore at the Master Control Facility (MCF) at Hassan when T.K. Anuradha, Pramodha Hedge and K.S. Anuradha lead the critical activities that would help in taking the GSAT-12 from its present sub-geosynchronous transfer orbit to the circular geosynchronous orbit at an altitude of 36,000 km.

Commands will be given from the MCF to the satellite for circularising its orbit, which at present is elliptical. The PSLV-C17 put GSAT-12 in orbit on Friday.

Ms. T.K. Anuradha, Project Director, GSAT-12, said every launch was a challenge but this mission was a bigger challenge because the Indian Space Research Organisation needed 12 C-band transponders immediately. “We could not afford to go wrong or allow any system to malfunction in this mission.”

Moreover, her team had to pack the power systems and reaction control systems, among others, in a small bus in the satellite. “We had to put everything in a small area. It is like building a big bungalow on a small plot of land.”

The coming five days would be crucial. Commands would be given to circularise the GSAT-12's orbit. “The satellite's antenna will also be deployed. It will be a major event,” she said.

The Mission Director at the MCF will be Ms. Pramodha Hegde and the Operations Director, Ms. K.S. Anuradha.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2011 07:14

ISRO-developed computer helped PSLV C-17 put satellite in orbit - T.S.Subramanian in The Hindu

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2011 07:19

Shrinivasan wrote:Dr. Shiv your cynicism is surprising.... but at the same time your cynicism today is just not you...

Shrinivasan, I completely agree with Shiv. One compares oneself with a peer or a superior. Let us close the discussion on this issue. Let us discuss relevant matter in this thread.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2011 07:23

PSLV, a proud symbol of ISRO's self-reliance

K. Radhakrishnan, Chairman, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), called it an “important mission, both from the technological angle and for the people of the country.” The mission was so perfect that the rocket put the satellite in a sub-GTO with an apogee of 21,020 km against the planned 21,000 km and a perigee of 284 km against a targeted 281 km.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jul 2011 07:27

Shrinivasan, my OT response is here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1129618

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 16 Jul 2011 07:28

Congrats to ISRO & everybody connected with the launch. Warm wishes to deshvaasis.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 16 Jul 2011 07:50

Well done to ISRO again. PSLV is a proven genuine versatile launcher.

Has the GSAT 12 injection perigee and apogee been published yet? The brochure lists the target GTO of 284 km x 21,000 km.

I know the "within 8 km" figure was quoted somewhere. Assuming this applies to the perigee, the injection altitude was 284 +/- 8 i.e. 292kms or 276 kms This will determine amount of fuel required to circularise GSAT12 orbit's to get to its geo-synchronous slot and thus determine useful life.

GSLV will also get there although it is facing more developmental challenges than hoped.

GSLV MkIII is the one which will take us to the medium/heavy lift category. It will be the 1st Indian rocket to use engine clustering. (If my memory serves me right Korolev's R7 in the late 50's was the first rocket to use engine clustering.)

I think Arun_S has already confirmed the range versus payload missile discussion with graphs.
---
added later

Just saw the published injection numbers. The brochure clearly mentions 284 kms (not the 281 kms stated in the linked article) as the target and this has been achieved. This is phenomenal accuracy.

Couple the above with the TSS article on the new Vikram processors used. The new processor and software seem to have done a great job.

Still missing the injection inclination. Correcting inclination consumes the most on-board fuel.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 16 Jul 2011 09:29

Congratulations ISRO on successful launch and another milestone crossed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Jul 2011 09:31

It is a good day........

Am eagerly waiting for the day when the ISRO after the sucessful launching of any mission just makes a mater of fact anouncement that such and such payload was placed in XYZ orbit and the news gets buried on page 8 or 10 of a national daily.

IOW, such news becomes so routine that no one bothers to spend even 10 second on it.

That will the day when we ought to truly celeberate.

Today is just another step in that direction.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 16 Jul 2011 09:47

Here is an unexciting tidbit:

During any launch ISRO uses embedded (DSP based) active noise cancellation systems to enhance voice communication audio quality. This apparently is required to cancel the unattenuated noise of rocket motors that makes it in through out mission control.

This system is also being installed in some Indian air-ports

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 16 Jul 2011 10:34

rahulm wrote:Well done to ISRO again. PSLV is a proven genuine versatile launcher.

Has the GSAT 12 injection perigee and apogee been published yet? The brochure lists the target GTO of 284 km x 21,000 km.

I know the "within 8 km" figure was quoted somewhere. Assuming this applies to the perigee, the injection altitude was 284 +/- 8 i.e. 292kms or 276 kms This will determine amount of fuel required to circularise GSAT12 orbit's to get to its geo-synchronous slot and thus determine useful life.

i saw the launch yesterday. the project director for PSLV - mr. Unnikrishnan iirc said in the post launch briefing - the target reached was 282km (P) x 20992km (A) {the 8km less refers to the 21000km Apogee.} against the estimated 284km x 21000 km.

it was bull's eye launch!! congrats ISRO.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Jul 2011 10:46

The XL version gived 40% more boost. I wonder Agni 2 AT was a XL?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 13:00

rahulm wrote:During any launch ISRO uses embedded (DSP based) active noise cancellation systems to enhance voice communication audio quality. This apparently is required to cancel the unattenuated noise of rocket motors that makes it in through out mission control.

This is definitely exciting, can this be used on our Druv/LCH to make them less noisy/ more stealthy... I think this technology has immense potential!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 13:01

chackojoseph wrote:The XL version gived 40% more boost. I wonder Agni 2 AT was a XL?

CJ, I have not seen an Agni launch with any strap-on boosters.. care to direct me to a picture... thanks.
Added Later: Checked Arun_S's drawings of the entire Agni Family. none of them have strap-ons, there is one picture cluster where he has compared Agni and ASLV (which has strap-ons).. maybe you saw those!?

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 16 Jul 2011 13:12

Pratyush wrote:It is a good day........

Am eagerly waiting for the day when the ISRO after the sucessful launching of any mission just makes a mater of fact anouncement that such and such payload was placed in XYZ orbit and the news gets buried on page 8 or 10 of a national daily.

IOW, such news becomes so routine that no one bothers to spend even 10 second on it.

That will the day when we ought to truly celeberate.

Today is just another step in that direction.

It has already happened. Look at today's Banglaore edition for Times of India and you will understand. Its a small column news inside the newspaper. If you are not an avid reader, you will miss it too

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 13:27

symontk wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Am eagerly waiting for the day when the ISRO after the successful launching of any mission just makes a mater of fact announcement that such and such payload was placed in XYZ orbit and the news gets buried on page 8 or 10 of a national daily.
It has already happened. Look at today's Bangalore edition for Times of India and you will understand. Its a small column news inside the newspaper. If you are not an avid reader, you will miss it too

Why this inane desire to have a great successful launch being relegated to an inside page and not celebrated as a success? what message will be sending to our research community which has been toiling for years for this moment?
I would say, BLR Times should have pushed the reporting on Mumbai blasts or any other sad news to the inside pages and report on ISRO's successful launch for half a page with big pictures...

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 16 Jul 2011 15:01

Shrinivasan wrote:I would say, BLR Times should have pushed the reporting on Mumbai blasts or any other sad news to the inside pages and report on ISRO's successful launch for half a page with big pictures...

I share your eagerness w.r.t. our scientific strides but please don't go overboard with it that you try and undermine a serious issue.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 16 Jul 2011 15:25

Injection orbit of GSAT12 and its launcher has been plotted as seen from a point above North pole.

There are actually two objects .. GSAT12 and the satellite launcher which is also orbiting around earth as a debris. I don't want to hazard a guess about which is the correct one. Presently we ( I mean public domain ) don't know which is which so I have plotted both. Once we know more details then we can concentrate only on GSAT12.

This may take a day or two.

Main parameters for the two objects are :

orbits per day = 3.85199603 and 3.91888036
Apogee = 21348 Kms and 20959 kms

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2011 20:03

rahulm wrote:Still missing the injection inclination. Correcting inclination consumes the most on-board fuel.

The design was 17.9 deg and it was achieved. This is better than the earlier GSLV GTOs which were around 20 deg. Of course, Ariane achieves a far better inclination because of launch location advantages.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Jul 2011 20:48

Shrinivasan wrote:Why this inane desire to have a great successful launch being relegated to an inside page and not celebrated as a success? what message will be sending to our research community which has been toiling for years for this moment?
I would say, BLR Times should have pushed the reporting on Mumbai blasts or any other sad news to the inside pages and report on ISRO's successful launch for half a page with big pictures...

You misunderstood my purpose, what I wish for is that space launches become so routine, that, it becomes for the nation what walking is for you and I. Important, but unremarkable to a man without any disabilities.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jul 2011 21:07

Shrinivasan wrote: I would say, BLR Times should have pushed the reporting on Mumbai blasts or any other sad news to the inside pages and report on ISRO's successful launch for half a page with big pictures...

What? And relegate Pakistan to the back pages? What will 180 million Pakb@$tards think having toiled for all these years to stay on the front pages? I am beginning to enjoy all these off topic conversations on this thread. Too serious otherwise.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 16 Jul 2011 21:10

shiv wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: I would say, BLR Times should have pushed the reporting on Mumbai blasts or any other sad news to the inside pages and report on ISRO's successful launch for half a page with big pictures...
What? And relegate Pakistan to the back pages? What will 180 million Pakb@$tards think having toiled for all these years to stay on the front pages? I am beginning to enjoy all these off topic conversations on this thread. Too serious otherwise.

Shiv, Shrini is now our secret psychological weapon against the Pakis.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Jul 2011 22:07

Manned missions being discussed: ISRO chief.

India's space agency has plans to launch a manned space mission in the future, but a lot of work needs to be done before that to ensure such missions are failure-proof, a top scientist has said.

K. Radhakrishnan, chairman of ISRO, said here that the space agency will have to first master the rocket technology to launch heavy communications satellites before it can progress to a manned mission.

"Rockets that carry humans cannot have a failure rate of more than two per thousand flights," he said after the successful launch of latest communications satellite GSAT-12 from the space port.

"Further what we have now (Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle) is only an unmanned rocket where the reliability should be 99 percent," Radhakrishnan said.

"We are trying to understand the intricacies of manned space mission. ISRO has to work on areas like thermal protection, life support and crew escape systems."

"We had a long discussion on manned space mission. The initial plan was to put two humans in space for seven days," he added.

According to him the first mission is to build a reliable GSLV rocket for launching heavy satellites.

He said ISRO is expected to be ready with a GSLV rocket to be powered by its own cryogenic engine next year.

Queried about the second space capsule recovery experiment (SRE-2), P.S. Veeraraghavan the director at the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre, said the capsule is in the final stages of integration and the mission will be sometime next year.

Meanwhile, ISRO will follow a multi pronged approach to augment its transponder capacity - automatic receivers and transmitters for communication and broadcast of signals, a top official said.

"We can lease transponders from other satellite operators and launch our own satellites. ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation) currently has 175 transponders whereas the demand is for 200 more transponders," Radhakrishnan said.

He said ISRO will launch a three-tonne communication satellite GSAT-10 with 30 transponders using Ariane rocket.

"We need few satellites like that. Two of the existing communications satellites -- Insat 2E and Insat-3C -- are nearing their end," he added.

Queried about the efficacy of using the other rocket -Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) in launching communication satellites - like GSAT-12- he said: "GSLV rocket is better for such missions. When GSLV Mark III variant under development will be much more efficient."

Officials said after the two successive failures of GSLV rockets last year the space agency has understood the failure cause.

Speaking about satellite GSAT-12 launch, T.K. Alex, director of ISRO Satellite Centre, said the initial operations went off smoothly.

"The solar panels were deployed and are generating power. The satellite orbit will be raised from 22,020 km apogee (farthest point from the earth) to 36,000 km apogee tomorrow and day after. All the 12 transponders in the satellite will be tested by the end of this month," Alex said.

He said there will be sufficient fuel left in GSAT-12 after raising its orbit to 36,000 km apogee so that it can be in operation for seven years.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 16 Jul 2011 22:18

Since there was some discussion on this topic, inclined orbit screen shot is shown here.

BTW the inclination is not by design but merely due to the fact that the line from SHAR to point of release above equator ( which has to be perigee point ) make that angle wrt equator.

Incidentally, this being a India's Space Activity thread should be devoted to more serious discussions that than the daily charts that I intend to generate.

So my daily updated charts will be here.

If there is any special event then I will put alert here.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Jul 2011 02:09

Why dont we name our PSLV & GSLV something rather than these four letter acronyms.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 17 Jul 2011 03:04

and how will that change anything other than additional expense to rename it

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jul 2011 08:13

The Long Road Ahead - Editorial in The Hindu