Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2015 07:03

but looking at how the part of tube below the smoke and flame is dislocated and not properly aligned with the bottom part of the tube fixed to the hydraulic jacks, the upper part looks PS to me. a dummy gas generator launch should NOT have the flame of the 1st stage ignition

so take it fwiw but the TELAR looks genuine. someone took a launch photo and PSed it onto the top of tube but not to scale and not properly aligned.

truth and justice shall be revealed tomorrow afternoon. let us wait till then.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 30 Jan 2015 07:47

In a vertical launch system how does one prevent the missile crashing back if the 1st stage ignition fails for any reason ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Jan 2015 07:48

Singha sir, that is the real deal from DRDO June 2014 Newsletter.

Only other picture comes from Saurav Jha.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Jan 2015 08:22

Launcher apart, I guess we really need to fund TATA to come up with high mobility TELARS.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Jan 2015 08:41

no news of canister test

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 30 Jan 2015 08:45

Could there be a connection between the delayed testing and the recent ISI agent caught at the test range?

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 30 Jan 2015 12:13

Karan M wrote:
jamwal wrote:This is not a real picture.
Just remembered. This may be from an animation of the Agni shown on news channels. The lack of details on the launcher hydraulics may be a give away, though the wheels appear fairly detailed.

It is the real pic, sometime back was confirmed by Pallav Baglla of NDTV.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Jan 2015 12:16

Venu wrote:Could there be a connection between the delayed testing and the recent ISI agent caught at the test range?

No, First was Modi delay and second was Obama delay.
Wonder if Modi will be present tomorrow..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2015 13:03

prasannasimha wrote:In a vertical launch system how does one prevent the missile crashing back if the 1st stage ignition fails for any reason ?

there is none except cower and pray

here is one of a S300 launch failure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzjn9kNYHbg

I guess liquid fueled missiles like SS18 are never cold launched from land, they go out under own steam.
for soviet liquid fueled SLBMs of old, the sub has to keep moving during the launch to avoid any fallback and hope the water also snuffs out any flame issue as the missile crashes back

thats why Operation Begemot(behemoth) was such a white knuckle ride.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icsVIJAwit0
The R-29RM is a three-stage liquid-propellant missile carrying four or ten MIRV.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 30 Jan 2015 13:13

What is that webbing running on the Agni TEL?

Ultimately, we would need something on the lines on the MZKT-79221.

MZKT - 79221 is developed by the Minsk Tractor Trailer Factory Belarus. This 8-axle chassis is intended for carrying ICBMs over various terrain with temperatures ranging from -40°C up to +50°C. For the 16x16 wheeled tractor all the wheels are independent and self powered via low speed MAN hydrodrives located in each wheel.

Carrying capacity - 80 Tons
Maximum speed - 40 km/h
Yamz V16 Diesel engine - 700 hp
Turn Radius - 25 meters

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2015 13:17

neither india or cheen are using high mobility TELARs for ICBMs because both plan to use 100s of pre surveyed sites near highways.

russia has endless tracts of siberia to move her icbms around and needs the deep mud and snow capability of the MAZ beasts.

for tactical missiles like say Agni1 or Brahmos we are using high mobility tatra vehicles as they must move x-country with the regiments. here the df31 is using just a normal truck like ours
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 40_003.jpg

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 30 Jan 2015 13:30

^^^Reg Canister launch pic: It was mentioned in the press release at that time that after the ejection a small solid motor fitted to the dummy missile was ignited to push the missile away from the launch platform and fall off at a safe distance.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 30 Jan 2015 13:49

Singha Sir,

You could be right, but all the news suggests that they are putting DF-21/31/41 onto high mobility TEL's. Could be a transition phase. Even Jefferey Lewis's blog suggests the same.

Future PLA ICBM TEL

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Jan 2015 14:04

^^ No one stays nears the launcher. The security cordon is quite some distance from the safe blast radius, as is the mobile Launch Command.

Even Prithvi, Pinaka, Grad, Akash truck cabins are empty when firing.

Naval ship decks are cleared of personnel when missiles are launched / guns are fired. The missile exhaust can char a man to his bones.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Jan 2015 14:08

NOTAM issued for Agni V test on 31st Jan!

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 30 Jan 2015 14:12

^^ No one stays nears the launcher. The security cordon is quite some distance from the safe blast radius, as is the mobile Launch Command.

Even Prithvi, Pinaka, Grad, Akash truck cabins are empty when firing.

Naval ship decks are cleared of personnel when missiles are launched / guns are fired. The missile exhaust can char a man to his bones.

Of course, tsarkar ji. My reply was to Singha ji's post where he had mentioned this

a dummy gas generator launch should NOT have the flame of the 1st stage ignition

The press reports back then made mentions of a small solid motor in the dummy missile designed to push the missile away and prevent it from falling straight back on the launch canister..

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Jan 2015 14:16

Singha wrote:neither india or cheen are using high mobility TELARs for ICBMs because both plan to use 100s of pre surveyed sites near highways.

russia has endless tracts of siberia to move her icbms around and needs the deep mud and snow capability of the MAZ beasts.

for tactical missiles like say Agni1 or Brahmos we are using high mobility tatra vehicles as they must move x-country with the regiments. here the df31 is using just a normal truck like ours
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 40_003.jpg

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618
Our doctrine for deployment of road mobile ICBMs is very different from that of the Russians which is why our TELs are also different.

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... mirvs.html

..
But the transporter erector launchers (TELs) deploying these missiles differ from the Russian MAZ series vehicles. While road mobile TEL's deployed by Russia are designed for cross country mobility in that country's vast forested hinterlands and for quick exits from their shelters in case of garrison basing, India's road mobile missiles will be randomly based across India's road network consisting of everything from a highway to perhaps even a Class II road.

The idea is to deploy camouflaged TEL's that would look like every day semi-trailer trucks at least when viewed from above. Thus concealment in addition to road mobility is a cornerstone of India's future land based missile force. As Avinash Chander then Chief Controller Missiles and Strategic Systems, DRDO (and now Director General, DRDO) put it in an interview to Frontline in April 2012.

You can stop on the roadside on the highway, launch from there and go away. You can stop the traffic for five minutes on either side, launch and go away. Your ability to move, your options to launch and your operational flexibility increase manifold. You have a reduced reaction time. Everything is already prepared. Just make the missile vertical in three minutes, and the launching takes another few minutes. So you stop, launch and go off. That does not give the enemy a chance even if he detects you. He does not know from where you are going to launch. Only when you have made the missile vertical for launch will he realise that you are going to launch it. The boost-phase destruction that people are talking of, that is, the missile getting destroyed before it takes off, will not be possible if you have a short reaction time as in a canisterised launch unless you have a space-based radar weapons system. Today, it is non-existent and is not likely to be developed in the next couple of decades at least.

Given that this is the intended pattern for deployment, it is understandable that the actual number of such vehicles transiting India's road network will be kept modest, to ensure water tight protection and manageability. Indeed the greater threat to such systems probably comes from clandestine ground level operations rather than from a targeted first strike. Accordingly an enemy would perceive much lesser gains from a first strike against such systems in MIRV configuration then it would if the same missiles carrying MIRVs were deployed in hardened or even super-hardened silos.

..

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 30 Jan 2015 14:26

koti wrote:But is doesn't say by what the range increase will be!

It could be from more adventurous trajectory that is enabled by the seeker or perhaps modifications to the airframe itself. Or both. Any ideas?

Actually the proposed range increase was 12 KM In Akash MK2 when seeker was not planned. This means 40 to 42 KM. Since now seeker is installed and missile with seeker is expected to take a new path to approach target, there shall certainly be a further increase in range. It shold be in a range of 50 to 70 KM.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2015 14:38

the limit of the notam appears to be 3000km onlee per the flat map. so perhaps not a full range test tomorrow.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 30 Jan 2015 14:41

dinesha wrote:Canister Launch of Agni-V on Saturday

BALASORE: After the three-day tour of US President Barack Obama, the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) here is readying for the first canister launch of India’s longest range ballistic missile Agni-V in full operational configuration. The test is likely to be carried out from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off the Odisha coast on Saturday.

Defence sources said, the test was postponed twice -- in December and early January -- due to Obama visit and lack of schedule of Prime Minister Narendra Modi who was slated to witness the launch along with the Defence Minister.
While the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) is yet to confirm Modi’s visit, the organisation is likely to go ahead with its schedule. The DRDO is planning to give a memorable farewell to its outgoing Chief Avinash Chander, who was unceremoniously removed from his post on January 13, sources in DRDO informed The Express.

“As the term of Chander, the brain behind the Agni missiles, ends on January 31, the scientists want to make the date momentous,” said sources.

Meanwhile, preparations for the launch are on in full swing at the Wheeler Island. Over 300 scientists and technical staff from several laboratories including Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Research Centre Imarat (RCI) and Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) are camping here.

During the test, Agni-V will be fired from a sealed canister mounted on a launcher truck. With a dummy payload, the missile will be pushed out of the canister by a gas generator after which the actual stage separations will occur as per the coordination.

With a strike range of over 5,000, Agni-V is country’s first intercontinental range ballistic missile (ICBM) which is capable of hitting targets in all Asian countries and parts of Africa and Europe. The 17-metre long, two-metre wide, three-stage, solid-fuelled missile can carry a payload of 1.5 tonne and weighs around 50 tonnes.

A canister-launch system gives the forces the requisite operational flexibility to promptly transport the ballistic missile and launch it from a place of their choice. The DRDO is also working on the canister version of other Agni series of missiles including I, III and IV.

A successful launch would push the missile a step forward towards its induction in the Armed Forces signaling the defence organisation to go for its production though it has to undergo two more trials before it is inducted, possibly in two years.

After Agni-V missile is inducted, the DRDO will focus more on multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs) and manoeuvring warheads or re-entry vehicles to defeat enemy ballistic missile defence manoeuvring systems.

I am doubtful about the so called weight of A 5 which is declared 50 tons. We have a longer A 4 with 17 tons weight with 1.3 M Dia Motor then how A 5 with 2.0 M dia motor has 3 time more weight?
Tessy Thomas had said that A3's weight has been reduced to 22 tons from 48 tons. A5 must have gone in same weight reduction. I have all the reason to believe Prasun Sengupta when he says that A5 weighs 26 tons and weight of whole launcher with Missile is 50 tons.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2015 15:50

well every 3-stage icbm out there is north of 45 tons. the M51 of france is around 52t , the topol-M is 48t.....it goes on.
and most of these use lighter composite 1st stage casing which A5 does not yet.

there is no way a full caliber icbm can be 26t unless a very light payload is the limit.
ie midgetman concept -

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 30 Jan 2015 15:57

Singha wrote:well every 3-stage icbm out there is north of 45 tons. the M51 of france is around 52t , the topol-M is 48t.....it goes on.
and most of these use lighter composite 1st stage casing which A5 does not yet.

there is no way a full caliber icbm can be 26t unless a very light payload is the limit.
ie midgetman concept -

But we have 4000 KM A IV with 3 M longer height just weighs 17 ton with 1.3 M Dia Motor.

Tassy herself said that A3's weight is reduced to 22 tons (it uses same dia motor and same height with one less stage)

Considering above 2 facts, I am unable agree with that 50 ton weight figure, Sir.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 30 Jan 2015 16:13

@singha,
both m51 and topol-m have range around 10. so you mean A5 is 8-10k class missile?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Jan 2015 16:15

The weight reduction will happen only when composite engine is adopted for all stages of A5 and that certainly is a long term plan. IIRC, the version under development is not fully composite based, at least the 1st stage is still steel based.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 30 Jan 2015 16:16

dinesha wrote:NOTAM issued for Agni V test on 31st Jan!

What is the distance ?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 30 Jan 2015 16:27

I used an equidistant cylindircal projection for the NOTAM and it is more than 5000 Kms. I am getting values nearing 6-7 K People can correct me !

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Jan 2015 16:29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni-V

The Agni-V is a three stage solid fuelled missile with composite motor casing in the second and third stage.[31] In many aspects, the Agni-5 carries forward the Agni-3 pedigree. With composites used extensively to reduce weight, and a third stage added on (the Agni-3 was a two-stage missile), the Agni-5 can fly significantly more to inter-continental range.

Seems the 1st stage still retains Maraging steel casing.

Also, the 50 T figure is useful for later developments. You build the TEL and the rest of the support infra to cater to a 50 T missile and later switch the 1st stage with a new composite engine of same/similar dimension. Assuming we match the western standard on the propellent, a LRBM Agni V morphs into an ICBM or the payload increased many times allowing for MIRV/MARV without attracting much attention.

The ones that have had weight reduction must be full composite.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2015 16:54

adityadange wrote:@singha,
both m51 and topol-m have range around 10. so you mean A5 is 8-10k class missile?

Shhh..you are not supposed to say that.

note many of these ICBMs have a range with light payload thats around 10-12k and a range with full MIRV payload thats around 7-8k. only the biggest baddest ones like the SS18 can throw the full mirv payload onto the moon if need be.

eg. Trident D5 (59t per wiki but probably a little lower)

Operational range
With full load 7,840 kilometres (4,230 nmi);
with reduced load approx. 11,300 km (6,100 nmi) (exact is classified)

A5 will see a further evolution into A6, where the diameter will surely increase from 2m to around 2.2-2.3m and permit the heavy MIRV payload configs. the same TELAR would be carting it. due to length constraints (max 10meters) the K4 might already be in this bigger diameter

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Jan 2015 17:31

Vipul Dave wrote:
Singha wrote:well every 3-stage icbm out there is north of 45 tons. the M51 of france is around 52t , the topol-M is 48t.....it goes on.
and most of these use lighter composite 1st stage casing which A5 does not yet.

there is no way a full caliber icbm can be 26t unless a very light payload is the limit.
ie midgetman concept -

But we have 4000 KM A IV with 3 M longer height just weighs 17 ton with 1.3 M Dia Motor.

Tassy herself said that A3's weight is reduced to 22 tons (it uses same dia motor and same height with one less stage)

Considering above 2 facts, I am unable agree with that 50 ton weight figure, Sir.

Volume (and hence weight) of a cylinder will increase as a square of the radius. So assuming constant height an increase of diameter from 1.3m to 2m will result in an increase of volume by a factor of about 2.4. Also there is a difference in the payload of both missiles. So 50t for the A5 is quite reasonable.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 30 Jan 2015 17:46

here are my rough calculations. india map and odisha map indicates position of balasore at 21degree north where notam zone starts.
now look at the picture where lattitude and lognitude intersect at upper border of sri-lanka. as per india map linked above lattitude at this point is 10degree north. the lattitude line below 10d is equator (it is passing through indonesia. refer world map to ensure that particular line is indeed equator.) this means lattitude lines in notam picture are 10degree apart.
we can figure out that the lattitude line crossing through "splash point" rectangle is 20degree south. this means the missile will travel little more than 40degree lattitudes (atually 41.xx).
now, as per wiki lattitude article, meridian distance (where lognitude value between 2 points is same) between 1degree lattitude is 112.2km
so, 112.2 * 41 = 4592km

since above calculations are very rough we can safely assume that missile is going to travel 5k km.

@prasannasinha, requesting for basic explanation on equidistant cylindircal projection calculations in layman's terms.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 30 Jan 2015 18:13

http://www.progonos.com/furuti/MapProj/ ... R_W12.html

basically in an equidistant cylindrical projection, the distance in vertical directions or horizontal directiosn for a given lattitude remains the same and itt does not increase like the Mercator projection (for eg in a standard Mercator Projection the areas around the Arctic circle for eg greenland look huge) whereas with equidistant projections a given distance in along the line of lattitude remains constant free from distortion but oblique distances are not accurate.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jan 2015 19:14

dinesha wrote:NOTAM issued for Agni V test on 31st Jan!
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r0Dl ... 141517.jpg

I can't view this.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Jan 2015 19:42

It's quite surprising that we haven't tested a MIRV yet. I was under the impression that Smiling Buddha tests were meant to verify design of small enough bombs for MIRVs. Have I missed something ?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 30 Jan 2015 19:42

Fatwa to All Mujahids here:
As soon as @narendramodi tweets congratulations for Agni5 launch success. Let's plan to tag @abeshinzo and trend it. Let's send a message to dragon.
I will x-post in social media dhaga as well.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jan 2015 19:57

it would be still strategically at 5k range

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 Jan 2015 20:05

Not that BR is that important in grand scheme of things, why unnecessarily provoke (other way to put be paki about it, always H&D).

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 30 Jan 2015 20:12

jamwal wrote:It's quite surprising that we haven't tested a MIRV yet. I was under the impression that Smiling Buddha tests were meant to verify design of small enough bombs for MIRVs. Have I missed something ?

Jamwal ji, it was probably the other way around - MIRV delivery warhead is developed for the only design that worked in Smiling Buddha tests - Shakti II. If details of the bomb type - that is tested for - can be calculated, the same can be confirmed. That is the idea of tomorrow's test I think.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jan 2015 20:19

fanne, you never know how subliminally powerful you are.

. that is the basic difference between democracy and communism.

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 Jan 2015 22:39

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 16m 16 minutes ago
#BreakingNews Agni-V canister launch likely at 8 am on Jan 31.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 31 Jan 2015 00:41

Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) tweeted at 0:01 am on Sat, Jan 31, 2015:
The Agni-4 is well on its way to being deployed in a canisterised configuration as well.