Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Jan 2016 19:12

12 it is.

The US-2 does not have any armament, one hopes the Indian version has at least a torpedo, sonobouy, depth charge capability if not harpoons.

@1.65 Billion $, it seems very cheap for a Japanese system. Cheaper than a C-130 (which has the same engines)

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Jan 2016 00:39

Philip wrote:2 bought,10 built locally.That number is going to be a v.expensive "build in India" venture.To recover the costs of TOT,etc. one would require dozens to be built. Our need isn't that great particularly as the amphib has zero ASW capability.

Japan cannot export aircraft equipped for military uses. If this 2+10 is as stated then my belief is the following:

First 2 to be delivered will be very basic versions
ToT will ensure that India is able to equip according to it needs (SAR, reconnaissance, torpedos, chaffs, EW, whatever else)
India will be able to export the aircraft with any equipment it installs to friendly countries (Japan and US agreeing and with appropriate royalties)

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 06 Jan 2016 00:41

What stops India from equipping these aircrafts with our own sensors and pods? Also CG wanted 12 for MRMP role, why can't these be used?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2016 06:39

they are definitely ideal for CG purpose as well, given their ability to land directly in fairly rough seas. it can rescue the crews of ships in distress directly without waiting for a CG ship to come onsite. I am sure it can deploy a zodiac type boat once it lands.

its ability to fly low and slow over the water might permit stealthy ASM shots like the Ekranoplans used to - albeit on a scary scale.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jan 2016 11:55

Bheeshma wrote:What stops India from equipping these aircrafts with our own sensors and pods? Also CG wanted 12 for MRMP role, why can't these be used?

Integrating new equipment is no trivial task. You need OEM involved. Besides, there will be sales and other end-user agreements that specify what can and cannot be done with the platform. Not sure about Japanese military wares since they hardly export, but the US military export policy is pretty strict where some parts are temper proof and only their people can do the work.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jan 2016 12:43

Given Japan's peacenik def policy,it is unlikely that the deal will allow the arming of their amphibs. We actually neeed two classes.One for the CG and one for the IN.The CG would be better at operating unarmed amphibs with the IN requiring ASW/SAR amphibs like the BE-200s. The req. is large.Even smaller amphibs are needed for commns.using inland waterways/waterbodies,to access smaller coastal establishments which do not have airfields,etc.There are many amphib designs both east and west for this purpose.These smaller amphibs should be built in India under TOT. A little nation like the Maldives operate dozens of these as air-taxis flying tourists to their atoll resorts.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Jan 2016 12:51

Philip wrote:Given Japan's peacenik def policy,it is unlikely that the deal will allow the arming of their amphibs. We actually neeed two classes.One for the CG and one for the IN.The CG would be better at operating unarmed amphibs with the IN requiring ASW/SAR amphibs like the BE-200s. The req. is large.Even smaller amphibs are needed for commns.using inland waterways/waterbodies,to access smaller coastal establishments which do not have airfields,etc.There are many amphib designs both east and west for this purpose.These smaller amphibs should be built in India under TOT. A little nation like the Maldives operate dozens of these as air-taxis flying tourists to their atoll resorts.

They have recently brought in new amendments to their constitution to become a little more pro-active when it comes to defence related issues. Though, it primarily deals with being able to come to the aid of allies when the latter are attacked, it can very easily be stretched to supply of combat-equipped material.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Jan 2016 14:57

I think the experience and ToT for integrating the engines alone could be a big help with MTA.

Japan cannot export an armed variant, but this Make in India route is clearly designed to allow India to choose it's own variants going forward.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Jan 2016 18:52

Such expensive toys are totally unnecessary for Coast Guard.

At the very least I want IN US-2s to integrate with MARCOS. Fly great distances, drop MARCOS with mini chariots close to target and recover them back. As the aircraft rises to the sea the horizon will light up with the demolitions laid ....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2016 18:56

nice idea. i have seen video of MH47 chinooks hovering over the water , with ramp open and seal team rides their inflatable boat into the belly.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jan 2016 09:44

What the UA navy chief advocates as the best defence of the US. SSBNs. Not surpisingly,this is also Vlad-the-Bad's idea too! Russia is building a new class of SSBNs with LR ICBMs that can safely launch their missiles at the US from Arctic bastions. Ultimately it is the survivability of the second strike capability that really matters and deters the enemy from launching a surprise first strike. Our SSBN/N-subs programme should receive the highest priority of all def. projects.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/0 ... o3yeMtuljp

In this July 30 file photo, Navy Adm. John Richardson testifies on Capitol Hill in Washington. In his blueprint for a stronger Navy, the sea service's new top boss, Richardson, is blunt about what he thinks matters most: nuclear punch.AP.

Top U.S. admiral sees ‘nuclear punch’ from submarines key to America’s survival
Jan 6, 2016

In his blueprint for a stronger U.S. Navy, the sea service’s new top boss, Adm. John M. Richardson, is blunt about what he thinks matters most: nuclear punch.

Battling terrorists is today’s problem, but in looking toward a farther horizon, Richardson wants a navy built to counter unpredictable future threats from other countries. First on his list is a new fleet of nuclear-armed submarines, known as “boomers,” that prowl the oceans as the quiet centerpiece of the nation’s nuclear force. The navy plans to replace the current fleet of 14 Ohio-class boomers, which began service as early as 1981, with 12 next-generation subs.

“This is foundational to our survival as a nation,” Richardson writes in what he calls his design for the future, released Tuesday.

It also is a gigantic investment, estimated at $100 billion. Even one of the project’s biggest supporters, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat, calls the cost “staggering.” And it happens to be just one of three efforts by the Pentagon to modernize the U.S. nuclear “triad” — new long-range bomber aircraft, new or upgraded land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles and new missile-toting submarines. The price tag for these, plus related upgrades and replacements, is likely to approach $348 billion by 2024, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

Richardson acknowledges the expense but argues it is part of the cost of doing business on the world stage.

“From a security standpoint in this day and age, a world-class nuclear capability” is required to be considered a great power, he said Dec. 31. Without it, “we could be threatened or coerced by another nation who could hold this nuclear threat over our heads,” he added.

Russia and China are both modernizing their nuclear forces, although not every expert agrees that this alone justifies doing the same, at huge expense. William J. Perry, defense secretary from 1994 to 1997, says the U.S. can adequately deter a nuclear attack with a slimmed down force of nuclear bombers and nuclear-armed submarines. He favors scrapping the Air Force’s land-based missiles, or ICBMs.

Others say a combination of ICBMs and subs would be the right mix. In almost any proposed arrangement, the submarines would be part of the mix. That is because they are easily the least vulnerable to targeting by an enemy force, since they are nearly undetectable while on undersea patrol.

Richardson took over as the navy’s chief of naval operations, its top job, in September after three years as head of naval nuclear propulsion programs, meaning he was responsible for the nuclear reactors that propel submarines and aircraft carriers, but not for the navy’s nuclear weapons. He is a career submariner.

His focus on the navy’s nuclear future may seem surprising at a time when the military’s agenda is dominated by the threat posed by the Islamic State and other terrorist groups, who are not in the nuclear game and may not be deterred by U.S. nuclear weapons. The navy plays several roles in countering terrorist threats, including launching airstrikes from aircraft carriers, flying aerial reconnaissance missions and providing navy commando teams as part of the military special operations forces in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the greater Middle East.

Richardson says the navy must stay fully involved in countering terrorism, but he is convinced that it must also maintain a nuclear arsenal second to none.

Like most new service chiefs, Richardson spent his early weeks on the job developing a document that outlines his view of the service’s future. At the top of his list of ways the navy must strengthen its combat power is the nuclear challenge, which he defines as maintaining and modernizing the nuclear submarine force.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jan 2016 16:25

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ghaz ... 64575.html

Ghazi: Rana Daggubati begins shooting for India's first submarine-based war film
The film is based on the true incidents on the mysterious sinking of PNS Ghazi, a Pakistan submarine during the Indo-Pak 1971 war.

New Delhi, January 7, 2016
Rana Daggubati starts shooting for his next
Rana Daggubati began shooting for Hindi-Telugu bilingual "Ghazi", India's first submarine-based war film, on Thursday here.

Rana Daggubati took to Twitter to share the news.

The film is based on the true incidents on the mysterious sinking of PNS Ghazi, a Pakistan submarine during the Indo-Pak 1971 war.

Taapsee Pannu is paired with Rana, and she's rumoured to be playing a refugee. The film will be directed by debutant Sankalp, and it will be partially based on his own book Blue Fish.

Ghazi will be produced by PVP Cinema. The story is about an executive naval officer of the Indian submarine S21 and his team who remain underwater for 18 days.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Jan 2016 18:04

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/i ... 56888.html

...

Very soon the ship will also be fitted with vertically launched Surface to Air Missiles to neutralise enemy missiles, a release said.

The ship will be manned by 13 officers and 180 sailors with Commander Mahesh Chandra Moudgil at the helm as her first Commanding Officer. It would be an integral part of the Eastern Fleet under the Eastern Naval Command. As an ASW corvette, the ship carries on the legacy of her predecessor INS Kadmatt (P78), which served the Indian Navy for 24 years from 23 December 1968 - 30 November 1992, Dhowan said.

...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Jan 2016 18:31

So INS Kadmatt will get Barak-8? Or is he referring to SRSAM.

If SRSAM..Very interesting. It may mean the DRDO Revathi 3D radar will directly cue the Barak-8s without the need for the much larger, more expensive and heavier MFSTAR which may be overkill for an ASW ship.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jan 2016 18:46

Some earlier reports said that the follow-on P-28s would feature extra weaponry,etc. The glaring omission are the absence of any SSMs-even in a secondary role,given that she should be able to possess a min. capability to counter any threat ,with the primary task of ASW in blue water ops in concert with larger warships. Int. to see what anti-missile SAM is fitted as Karan has posted,whether it will be B-1/8 or some other system.

The Germans have developed a new multi-purpose sub launched torpedo for warships and subs with an 80km range, that can be fired even from land,suitable for defending coastal waters from land bases.P-28s with such a capability would enhance their kill zone substantially.

John · Post by **John** » 07 Jan 2016 21:30

Most likely it is being fitted with Barak-1 and that it has been integrated with Revathi. As for Barak-8 it will be fitted on Delhi and Shivalik class, latter already carries EL/M-2238 which can also be used with Barak-8.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Jan 2016 22:24

^ barak-1 needs a director radar to work.

John · Post by **John** » 07 Jan 2016 22:37

Aditya G wrote:^ barak-1 needs a director radar to work.

Shikari is also capable of guiding missiles but IN has been using STGR for that purpose. It is possible it has been integrated with Barak.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Jan 2016 23:43

AFAIK, it was supposed to be VL-MICA. To be replaced by Maitri, whenever it gets ready.

P.S. I don't know whether Maitri (currently in fabrication) will fit in the same tube as VL Mica. Maitri has a diameter of 230mm vs Mica's 160mm.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Jan 2016 03:15

I am skeptical about Mica because there has not been any news from MBDA about it nor as there been any indication of mica been procured in arms transfer.

As for size i don't see why not, i don't have dimension for mica vls launcher but i suspect it will be compatible with Maitri.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Jan 2016 04:08

According to this article, it is Barak-8.

Indian Navy test-fires missile developed with Israel

IANS | New Delhi Dec 29, 2015 08:48 PM IST
The Indian Navy on Tuesday test-fired the Barak 8 long range surface to air missile (LRSAM) for the first time from an Indian warship, after its successful test from an Israeli naval platform last month.
...
It will also be deployed on other naval ships including the recently commissioned INS Kamrota.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Jan 2016 04:10

I can't remember now, but I had read somewhere, that it was chosen because it does not need a fire control radar. Revathi will acquire the target and pass it on to the missile, and the missile's homing head takes on the roll of guidance from there on.

As I have said before. I am not sure of it. Meanwhile, Maitri's integration rigs, folding wings, and canisters etc. are all in fabrication at Kanchanbag.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 08 Jan 2016 04:41

The Barak8 is 4.2 m long and as per P-28 designs is meant to go next to the Helicopter hangar. Doesn't that mean the missile and VLS are basically sitting outside the hull? parallel to the hangar?

John · Post by **John** » 08 Jan 2016 05:47

Not sure how credible that report is considering a different report contradicts it and has been picked by most of the media.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/long ... 59243.html

The largest among them will be the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya when it is time for its mid-life upgradation (MLU), the two indigenous aircraft carriers being designed and built, the three Delhi-class of destroyers (built under Project 15), three Kolkata class destroyers (Project 15A), four Vishakhpatnam class destroyers (project 15B), three Shivalik class (Project 17) during MLU and seven frigates under Project 17A.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 08 Jan 2016 08:54

Can these aircraft carriers be re-purposed as evacuation ships? India needs to work out plans to evacuate 2+ million Indians within a Month's notice since ISIS fever is not abating or risk another genocide.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jan 2016 09:20

Any merchantman can be used to evacuate people.Just look at what the refugees are using to escape to Europe in their lakhs!

More on the PLAN's second home-built carrier.Smaller than the Liaoning,but with more aircraft. The Chinese are "hastening cautiously" in building up their naval air arm at sea. The In will also have to take a call when the design for IAC-2 has to be sealed.Operating 2 ski-jump CVs with another either cat/EMALS launch system would demand different training regimens,etc. Ideally,another Vikrant class,perhaps slightly larger to 50K t, giving us 3 apprx. similar med CVs,easy to operate,would be preferable,built asap keeping our larger N-powered CVs for post 2025.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac ... soviet-era

China’s second aircraft carrier to copy a dated Soviet-era design as naval hardware demands increase.

06 Jan 2016
China’s first aircraft carrier, with hull number ‘16’ and named Liaoning, is seen in the shipyard in Dalian, northeast China, in September 2012. Photo: EPA

China’s first home-made aircraft carrier will be a copy of a Soviet-era vessel with some refinements, with the navy rushing to ramp up its combat capacity as maritime tensions rise in the region, according to analysts.

The defence ministry confirmed on Wednesday that the country’s second aircraft carrier was under construction in the port of Dalian.

It would be conventionally powered, with a standard displacement of 50,000 tonnes, and have a ski-jump flight deck, features that are very similar to those of the Liaoning, a Soviet-made vessel sold to China in 1998.

The new warship will be slightly lighter than the Liaoning but have more space for fighter jets, according to Ifeng.com, an online news arm of Hong Kong-based Phoenix TV.

J-15 fighter jet pilots and crew were training on the Liaoning and be able to transition seamlessly to the new carrier, the report said.

READ MORE: China building second aircraft carrier as concern mounts over claims to South China Sea

Retired major general Xu Guangyu said military assessments indicated that China was ready and able to develop a catapult launch system but top brass had opted for a more dated ski-jump take-off because it would allow for a smoother transition for the J-15.

PLA Daily quoted Zhang Junshe, a researcher at the PLA’s Naval Military Academic Research Institute, as saying that the country would need at least three aircraft carriers to meet its demands for naval patrols, training and maintenance.

China’s first aircraft carrier, Liaoning, sails near Qingdao in eastern China’s Shandong province in October 2012. Photo: AP

China has been locked with its neighbours over sovereignty disputes in South China Sea, and has taken steps, such as building artificial islands, to assert its claims while trying to deter US involvement in the region.

It has also invested heavily to expand its naval and air force over the past year.

In June, Kanwa Defence Review, a magazine based in Canada, reported that China would have at least 12 advanced Type 052D guided missile destroyers and 22 multi-role 054A frigates by next year, followed by other state-of-the-art vessels, including two more home-built aircraft carriers.

INTERACTIVE: Slow boat to China — the long, troubled journey of the Varyag from the Black Sea to Dalian

A retired PLA senior colonel who used to be involved in naval research said many of China’s advanced vessels like the 052D destroyers were being sent to the South China Sea.

In October, sources close to the navy confirmed a statement by the Pentagon’s Defence Intelligence Agency that the People’s Liberation Army Navy planned to conduct the first patrol of its Type 094 Jin-class nuclear-powered submarine by the end of the year. The submarine is armed with JL-2 ballistic missiles that can hit the United States.

Earlier last month, China signed a US$2 billion agreement with Russia to buy 24 Su-35 fighter jets over three years, starting from 2016.

Photos published by state-run Xinhua News Agency also suggested that China might have started mass production of its first stealth fighter, the J-20.

Last week, the military said the Liaoning had made a “key breakthrough” in shifting from the testing phase to being able to operate ship-borne aircraft.

Additional reporting by Li Jing

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jan 2016 09:30

so it looks like they have not been able to master catapult launch system and neither is the J15 airframe stressed for such takeoff without rework.

disappointing, given that fans were expecting a straight leap from varyag to a 80,000t design and 3 steam catapults. this is not how a challenger is going to evict the US from west pacific.

when you look at the IJN carriers of WW2 they were in size and technology at par with the america's best and far superior to the british ones.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jan 2016 10:25

Russian refusal to hand over Su-33 tech could be the reason why they've decided not to go in for cats,but I think it is abundant caution as they're just starting carrier ops unlike the In with decades of experience. Walking before they run.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 08 Jan 2016 10:35

This is good news for the Indian Navy. We will not have to pawn the family silver to get a nuke powered EMAIL aircraft carrier. LCA-MK2 can be deployed on Vishal should Ski ramp design be finalized. Save a truck load of money.

Money saved can be put to good use for more capital ships, subs and Cruise missiles.

As I had said before, the Navy will carefully watch for details of Chinese carrier design to emerge before finalizing on Vishal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jan 2016 11:02

good thing is cats can never be retrofitted into these two over their expected 30-50 year lifespan.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Jan 2016 11:23

Philip wrote:Russian refusal to hand over Su-33 tech could be the reason why they've decided not to go in for cats,but I think it is abundant caution as they're just starting carrier ops unlike the In with decades of experience. Walking before they run.

The Su-33 isn't designed for catapult launch either. And while its obviously more advanced overall as a combat aircraft, by most accounts the J-15's airframe too is certainly more refined than the Su-33's.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jan 2016 17:44

For your info Viv,the SU-33 ,naval version of the SU-27,was originally designed for cat launches,eqpt. built.The tech exists but the Russians aren't happy to oblige the Chinese who without their permission have reversed engineered the Flanker.Why new engines aren't on their sale list to the PRC either.

To prepare for the operations of the Su-27K and the rival MiG-29K on-board the new carrier, work proceeded on the development of the steam catapult, arresting gear, optical and radio landing systems. The pilots were trained at a new establishment in Crimea, named NITKA, for Aviation Research and Training Complex In 1981, the Soviet government ordered the abandonment of the catapult system as part of an overall downsize of Project 1143.5 carriers, which also included cancelling the fifth Project 1143 carrier and the Varyag.

Some very good news! L&T chosen for the Kilo refits/building.
As I mentioned some time ago,Rubin had conducted a survey as to which was the best yard for building subs in India and chose the L&T yard at Katupalli. The yard recently chose as its CEO a very experienced former IN V.Adm. perfect for the task.

Upgrading Kilo class submarines: L&T set to partner Russia for Rs 5,000-crore defence deal
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | 8 Jan, 2016,
Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

NEW DELHI: Consolidating its position as the leading Indian defence player in the complex field of underwater warfare, engineering giant Larsen and ToubroBSE -2.19 % is set to get a major share in a Rs 5,000-crore deal to upgrade and refit Russian-origin Kilo class submarines.

The company, which is already a leading partner for the nuclear submarine project of the Indian Navy, has been chosen as the Indian partner for the Kilo class refit — a program to increase the life of the submarine by 10 years involving complex engineering .

Sources have told ET that the Russian side has written to the Indian government, informing that an earlier partnership plan with the Anil Ambani promoted Pipavav now stands cancelled as the shipyard would not have been able to meet timelines set by the Navy for the upgrade plan. L&T, which refused to comment on the development when contacted, is now expected to upgrade at least three submarines in India, in what could make the yard a leading contender for similar orders from neighbouring
nations that operate Kilo class submarines as well. Sources said that the key factor in choosing L&T was an evaluation of at least three yards that was conducted by Russian shipbuilders.

"A survey of the equipment profile and finances was conducted at the Cochin Shipyard, Pipavav and the L&T yard at Kattupalli. Only the L&T facility was found technically capable of carrying out the work in the given timeframe," an official involved in the process told ET
While the first of the four Kilo class subs will go to the Russian Zvezdochka shipyard for inspection and refit, the remaining three are likely to be modernised at the Kattupalli yard. The first of the submarines to be modernised at private yard — a first for India — will go in by 2017, officials said. An order for 2-3 more submarines could also be commissioned, depending on ongoing acquisition plans of the Navy.

The Indian Navy is looking to squeeze some more life out of its two decade-old Kilo class submarines, with a contract being signed in October with Russia to extend the service life of the boats to 35 years. The extensive refit will not only extend the life of the subs but will also upgrade their combat potential. The first submarine to be sent is the INS Sindhukesari that will be fitted with Klub land attack cruise missile. The Sindhukesari, which got its first refit in 1999-2001, will also be fitted with several Indian systems

3 cheers for this quick decision by the MOD/GOI!
PS:Nice slideshow of some key defence milestones from last yr .
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 482501.cms

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 08 Jan 2016 18:03

In the above slideshow, there is an incorrect news about Agni V canister launch success. Or did it happen but I missed it?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 18:14

L&T beating Pipapav - for once the right folks won.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 08 Jan 2016 22:43

P-15B taking shapes

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2016 22:47

AV was canister launched in Jan last year just before Mr. Avinash Chander retired.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Jan 2016 23:45

Philip wrote:For your info Viv,the SU-33 ,naval version of the SU-27,was originally designed for cat launches,eqpt. built.The tech exists but the Russians aren't happy to oblige the Chinese who without their permission have reversed engineered the Flanker.Why new engines aren't on their sale list to the PRC either.

You'd be well advised to take a closer look at the Wikipedia article you're quoting. The Project 1153 CATOBAR carrier project was canned in 1981. Full scale development on the Su-33 on the other hand began in the 1984, at which point it would have been foolish to gear the airframe up for catapult launch.

Also, for your info, catapult-launch isn't some exotic capability that the Chinese need to resort to espionage over. Fighter jets have been employing them for over half a century now. The primary challenge is strengthening the airframe to prevent premature component failure, in technical terms fairly similar to integrating arresting gear to the aircraft, which is well within the Shenyang's existing design capabilities.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Jan 2016 03:33

Shaun wrote:P-15B taking shapes

Thanks Shaun what is date of the pics??? Seems to be farther along just 2 years from sea trials.

disha · Post by **disha** » 09 Jan 2016 05:05

prahaar wrote:In the above slideshow, there is an incorrect news about Agni V canister launch success. Or did it happen but I missed it?

It happened on 31 Jan 2015.