Indian Response to Terrorism

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2008 17:47

I too have my doubts about SG's capabilities.I've been looking for some geuine Roman womanhood of yore in her,Lucretia Borgia,etc., but am still searching with my magnifying glass.

"Mike the Mule" is back in the land of the pure to be ridden by the Paki general staff! His chief interest is to see that the Us's strategy in the region doesn't unravel thanks to the barbaric antics of Uncle Sam's children born on the wrong side of the blanket.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/145519/Mull ... error.html

Mullen persuades Pak to address India's concerns on terror

PTI | Islamabad

America's top military official, on a second visit to Islamabad since the Mumbai terror attacks, has persuaded the country to do more to address India's concerns on terrorists operating from its soil in order to defuse tensions between the two nations.

Admiral Mike Mullen, Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, is believed to have stressed the need for Pakistan to do more to address India's concerns, including action against elements linked to the Mumbai attacks, during his meetings with the country's top military leadership on Monday.

Diplomatic sources said that the tensions between India and Pakistan and ensuring Islamabad's cooperation to nab the terrorists involved in the Mumbai attacks was the focus of Mullen's two day visit.

Mullen met army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha, the head of the Inter-Services Intelligence(ISI) agency on Monday.

US embassy spokesman Lou Fintor said that Mullen is visiting for "scheduled meetings with senior Pakistani officials on regional issues". Mullen is expected to meet President Asif Ali Zardari on Tuesday.

However, the influential Dawn newspaper reported Mullen was "on a mission to urge Pakistan to arrest elements accused by India of being involved in last month's Mumbai attacks for cooling down the mounting tension between the two countries".

The newspaper quoted unnamed sources as saying that Mullen "might have sought commitments from the Pakistani leadership on the Indian demands which are also a pre-condition for resuming the peace process" between the two countries.

The role of the ISI was also discussed by Mullen, who is believed to have reiterated the US's demand for bringing the spy agency under civilian control.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 23 Dec 2008 18:26

narayanan wrote:GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

Excellent article. Thanks.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2008 19:02

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 880408.cms "No one wants war. International community must put pressure on Pakistan to act against terrorists."

f0k! he mumbled it again!.. come on! another strategic blunder. how the hell does think pakis will react? goddamn pm we have.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2008 19:06

stratfor:

India has given Pak time till Dec 26: Stratfor report

IANS

TimePublished on Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 18:39 in World section

New Delhi: India has given Pakistan time till December 26 for a crackdown on terror infrastructure, said a report of a leading publisher of geopolitical intelligence on Tuesday.

The report from Stratfor says that after the November 26 Mumbai attacks, India relayed a message to Pakistan via the US that they would be given “30 days to carry out significant actions in cracking down on Islamist militant proxies operating on Pakistani soil that continue to threaten India”.

Islamabad has been denying that the terrorists who attacked Mumbai killing at least 170 people were from Pakistan.

“Pakistan's deadline, as far as we know, is December 26, making Indian military action against Pakistan a very real and near possibility. The Indians have had a month to prepare their military operations against Pakistan, and Indian defence sources have revealed that these plans are ready to go into effect,” the report said.

“While India used the time to prepare its military forces, the US came down hard on Pakistan behind the scenes, making clear that Islamabad will have to deliver on India's demands or else Washington will not be able to stand in New Delhi's way if and when the time comes for India to act,” the report, based on intelligence reports, reads.

The intelligence analysts observed that Pakistan has made a few arrests and raids targeting militant leaders and Pakistani intelligence operatives, but has done nothing that substantially reduced the militant threat to India from New Delhi's point of view.

“And even if Pakistan was prepared to swallow the bitter pill of conceding to its main rival by cutting its militant ties, it can only go so far to placate India before it creates a domestic crisis in trying to avoid an international one,” Stratfor said.

However, the report said, that it is still unclear how far India will take this military campaign and to what extent the US operations in Afghanistan will be affected.

Discussions are taking place inside Indian defence circles over an escalatory military campaign, beginning with largely symbolic strikes in Pakistan-administered Kashmir against militant training camps and offices.

Depending on Pakistan's ability to respond, pressure could then be ratcheted up with precision air strikes in Pakistan's urban areas - to include the capital - against intelligence facilities and militant leadership hideouts.

The option of a naval blockade, which would cut off the US' main supply line into Afghanistan, has also been tossed around. While a blockade would put the already cash-strapped Pakistan in an economic choke, doing so would inevitably cause friction in India's relationship with Washington.

The intelligence publisher reported that the US, knowing its “limitations” of the relationship with New Delhi, is already preparing for “a worst-case scenario”.

“For the past month, the US military has been feverishly stockpiling supplies for its forces in Afghanistan in anticipation of a major interruption,” said the report

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 23 Dec 2008 19:50

narayanan wrote:GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

N^3, Excellent article. However just couldn't help but bring up the followinq equivalences

India == Vijaynagar empire

5 states Pakjab, Pakhtoonistan, Balwaristan, Baluchistan and Sindh = 5 Bahmani states

So breaking up of Pakistan should only be the first step. There are other steps after that that need to be taken to avoid the outcome of a future Battle of Talikota.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 23 Dec 2008 20:23

'Indian military action imminent'

Tuesday, 23 December , 2008, 18:43

New Delhi: "Time in running out" for Pakistan with the deadline of December 26 given by New Delhi to Islamabad for a crackdown on terror infrastructure approaching, said a report of a leading publisher of geopolitical intelligence on Tuesday.

The report from Stratfor says that after the November 26 Mumbai attacks, India relayed a message to Pakistan via the US that they would be given “30 days to carry out significant actions in cracking down on Islamist militant proxies operating on Pakistani soil that continue to threaten India”.

Islamabad has been denying that the terrorists who attacked Mumbai killing at least 170 people were from Pakistan.

Army chief reviews preparedness at Siachen

“Pakistan's deadline, as far as we know, is December 26, making Indian military action against Pakistan a very real and near possibility. The Indians have had a month to prepare their military operations against Pakistan, and Indian defence sources have revealed that these plans are ready to go into effect,” the report said.

“While India used the time to prepare its military forces, the US came down hard on Pakistan behind the scenes, making clear that Islamabad will have to deliver on India's demands or else Washington will not be able to stand in New Delhi's way if and when the time comes for India to act,” the report, based on intelligence reports, reads.

The intelligence analysts observed that Pakistan has made a few arrests and raids targeting militant leaders and Pakistani intelligence operatives, but has done nothing that substantially reduced the militant threat to India from New Delhi's point of view.

Pak to give equal response if India strikes: Kayani

“And even if Pakistan was prepared to swallow the bitter pill of conceding to its main rival by cutting its militant ties, it can only go so far to placate India before it creates a domestic crisis in trying to avoid an international one,” Stratfor said.

However, the report said, it is still unclear how far India will take this military campaign and to what extent the US operations in Afghanistan will be affected.

Discussions are taking place inside Indian defence circles over an escalatory military campaign, beginning with largely symbolic strikes in Pakistan-administered Kashmir against militant training camps and offices.

Depending on Pakistan's ability to respond, pressure could then be ratcheted up with precision air strikes in Pakistan's urban areas - to include the capital - against intelligence facilities and militant leadership hideouts.

Nuclear weapons will not be used: Pak Defence Minister

The option of a naval blockade, which would cut off the US' main supply line into Afghanistan, has also been tossed around. While a blockade would put the already cash-strapped Pakistan in an economic choke, doing so would inevitably cause friction in India's relationship with Washington.

The intelligence publisher reported that the US, knowing its “limitations” of the relationship with New Delhi, is already preparing for “a worst-case scenario”.

“For the past month, the US military has been feverishly stockpiling supplies for its forces in Afghanistan in anticipation of a major interruption,” said the report.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 23 Dec 2008 20:31

We Must not Dither in Times of Crisis
The Mumbai massacres are undoubtedly a lesson about our vulnerabilities, our huge security gaps, our disjointed reaction and our weak response to Pakistan. Mumbai was high profile and in contrast, the Naxal movement with 236 security forces and 460 civilians killed this year is a reflection of how issues are swept away from the mainstream when they do not seem to affect most of ‘us’. A government in election year and politicians under a cloud for what happened in Mumbai or was allowed to happen, have got together to appear to be seen to be doing something. So the people have been presented with yet another police organisation. This marks the second time when an important issue was passed without much ado – the first being the budget. Another time, criminals were sprung from jails to help pass the Indo-US nuclear agreement. Having communalised terror and counter-terror we have now decided to tighten our anti-terror laws.

With a seven thousand five hundred kilometre sea frontier and porous land borders we will always be vulnerable to depredations. Talking peace with Pakistan will not change this because the sea frontier and the land borders cannot be guarded by peace talks and policies based on hope. States need to be respected, even feared and not just liked. They can only be protected by following what Sun Tzu prescribed, ‘Do not depend on the enemy not coming; depend rather on being ready for him.’ We must accept that there is a congruence of interests in Pakistan between the Army and the jehadis nurtured by them. The Pak Army dreams of balkanising India in revenge for 1971, keeps the issue of Kashmir alive which allows it to keep Pakistan under its control. The jehadis dream of establishing caliphates in India and are willing to die for this, which again suits the Pak Army.

Pakistan has been at this game for over 60 years; it has been fighting a proxy war especially after 1971 at places and time of his choosing. It is a total war against India and we must treat it so. Other than adopting defensive postures we have done precious little to handle this threat. We have done nothing to teach the perpetrator a lesson. Instead, we have chosen to pay a heavy financial price for this (the new agency is a price we are going to pay forever) and the fact that Pakistan is paying an economic price today should be of little consolation for us. Getting ready for Pakistan and its terrorists extends to beyond modernising the armed forces with the latest aircraft, tanks or submarines. It means equipping our specialised forces the most lethal and suitable equipment and keeping them agile, trained and mobile for all times. It means empowering the local state units adequately in every sense of the word to be the first respondents in a crisis.

In handling Pakistan-led terror, we must also remember that we cannot afford to continue to dither in times of crisis. If we do not react effectively in time, then the moment of international empathy is gone. As has so often happened in the past, the first hours are the most crucial; do not react and others will step in to restrain us promising us action against Pakistan. This time it was the same pantomime. The terrorists attacked, we fumbled and hesitated, the Pakistanis wiggled for room as they shifted stance, angels stepped in promising action and urging patience. The moment was lost so we made a virtue of restraint. The Pakistanis did one better this time. There was a mysterious attack in Peshawar where160 NATO and US vehicles were sent alight with match sticks and not flame throwers and grenades. The attackers took their time because there was no one to stop them. The message to the mighty US was simple - we can choke you in Afghanistan any time so please do not try to push us. There is a method in the madness.

Every major crisis has resulted in the creation of new agencies. The Kargil crisis led to the creation of the DIA, the NTRO and the Multi Agency Centre. The Army maintains a pretty formidable Sigint capacity too. One wonders how much intelligence these agencies fed in the system before the Mumbai attacks. None of our systems are going to work if we do not have a sharp pre-emptive intelligence system with an equally well organised downstream activity that is geared to take on the new emerging threats. To quote Sun Tzu again “Nothing should be regarded as favourably as intelligence; nothing should be as generously rewarded as intelligence; nothing should be as confidential as intelligence.” Alas, in India, intelligence is a dirty word.

In order to win this battle we must accept that we have to fight our battles ourselves and make the adversary pay a price. Unless we do that, not even our smaller neighbours will respect us. We delude ourselves when we hope that the US or anyone else will fight our battles for us. No one else will do that for us.
Source : Mail Today , 22nd December 2008
Posted by Vikram Sood at 9:45 AM

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 23 Dec 2008 20:31

ramana wrote:suddepJ, its precisely that kind of weapon that was being worked on by DRDO and nothing has turned up. Before buying it those DRDO guys should be shot. they give optimistic press reports and when tested noting works and everyone bashes the forces for being too strict.

ramana
where are the reports of drdo developing such weapon
according to drdo website and google searching, sensor fused weaponry is part of next GOI plan 2007-12 in india

also 300-400 bombs being imported is not enough
we should be importing 10 time that number

these cbu-105 in testing showed deviation from test result on google searching (FAS)

ultimately all these fancy weapon are not necessarily that good in first time of development
US developed LGB in vietnam war and it is now 30 year later when they are accepted to be fully battleworthy system of high maturity

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 23 Dec 2008 20:39

vikram sood wrote:

We must accept that there is a congruence of interests in Pakistan between the Army and the jehadis nurtured by them. The Pak Army dreams of balkanising India in revenge for 1971, keeps the issue of Kashmir alive which allows it to keep Pakistan under its control. The jehadis dream of establishing caliphates in India and are willing to die for this, which again suits the Pak Army.
............
In order to win this battle we must accept that we have to fight our battles ourselves and make the adversary pay a price. Unless we do that, not even our smaller neighbours will respect us. We delude ourselves when we hope that the US or anyone else will fight our battles for us. No one else will do that for us.

correct sir

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 23 Dec 2008 20:49

sadly this UPA govt has wasted 90% of effort done by nda last time to build up armed forces
unfortunately they simply did not understand need to build up armed forces;
even nda understood this only when kargil attack and when mobilization was also there after parliament attack so they realised that new equpment purchase is very important.
in contrast, this UPA govt has wasted a lot of time to be very careful of avoiding "corruption" charge they have killed many program and original aims totally:

-- mrca purchase --> nda put this on fast track and cleared 126 mirage 2000-V at least some 3 squadron would have been in service today but upa listened to CAG and cancelled this and delayed whole thing
aim was to boost IAF striking power by huge amount in short period of time

anyway by upgrade of mki and pak-fa new technology was available so MRCA program was unnecessary

--army - t-72 tank not still fully upgraded and artillery program has gone nowhere
we are still waiting for ever for even basic artillery gun

basically because of weakness in army ORBAT we are relying more on AF
if army had some 400-500 new artillery gun paki army would be shitting in pants and kiyani would be begging Deepak Kapoor daily

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Dec 2008 21:12

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/23m ... tan-pm.htm

"My request to friends in Pakistan is to address the issue that is terrorism and not raise war hysteria," Mukherjee told media persons outside Parliament.

Maintaining that the issue to be addressed by Pakistan is the "sinister attack in Mumbai", he said: "India has requested action against people in Pakistan. We request Pakistan to act on our request."

Well, here is the gist for your query, snow Garu. Haven't seen anyone request so many times. Demands are for poor street hawker/s who is/was surviving at CST railway point. Anyway, I think some of the kids had it very simple: "Terrorist Uncle, please stop" is a direct appeal. Maybe it has better chance of working than the requests or NOT.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2008 21:55

sadly, if govt is taking time to buy, it does not mean they are trying to be careful of not doing corruption, rather they are trying their best to find a loophole to make the corruption. in a perfect system, why should any govt wait for the needs. this is fundamental core factors that produces chaltai hai syndrome.

get behind the policies and procedures.. plug the loopholes. there is no other way. and organic approach to development of security setup and maintenance. some of the things CAG points out is also true, like all eggs in one basket., and at the same time, we need to bring a quick review mode system that makes all stake holders meet every week, and take stock of things, review and change. all changes can not pull down already established requirements, if possible. this is where, govts.. also try to take time.. some of them even make money, to move certain files, from so called agents.

totally eradicate the unwanted dealings and dealers. deal direct with mftrs.. or countries who don't support such agents. this is one of the reasons, we are not unkil friendly as well, besides poodling. blame us for not choosing the right setup, rather the setup. we has a country is failing on all these aspects. thats all matters.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 23 Dec 2008 22:30

The Newshour Debate Will striking Pak solve things? Part-I

The Newshour Debate Will striking Pak solve things? Part-II

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 23 Dec 2008 22:39

saik

even nda was aware of trying to avoid corruption
but they did not hold up defence modernisation for saving own skin
this UPA govt is only interested in power

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 23 Dec 2008 22:40

shynee wrote:The Newshour Debate Will striking Pak solve things?

muh pe thappad to milega
pakistani kutto ko yeh tho samajh main aayega ki kuch keemat to chukani hain

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 23 Dec 2008 22:57

I cannot believe those rascals at IPL are still in support of Pakistani players playing in India.

What the ******!??!!?! Sack those pigs already, ban them, put up a banner outside every stadium "Dogs and Pakistanis not allowed".

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Dec 2008 22:58

The Paks I run into and Pak run websites all display a palpable fear. The CAP of yesterday over Slumbad and Lahore seems to have spooked them.

The Indians are testing them and may have let out disinformation that a strike was set. I expect Inidans to be trawling Pakistani air space with ELINT/SIGINT and obtaining radar signatures/locations. IRS capabilities are not even being mentioned in the media.

What are Indian AWACS assets? Of course Phalcon is not the only thing to be found (eventually) in their ORBAT. In 1971 in fact they did employ the Soviet Moss.

Israeli input into supporting the current Indian effort should make for fascinating reading but will probably not be released for years.

The US and India have a game plan for Pakistan as a landmark battle against radicalised Islam.

This time India will not go it alone. Pakistanis know it.

They need more iman, they don't have it.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 24 Dec 2008 00:02

Pigs are banking on the 25+ million AK-47 piglets running all over their napaki land.

The biggest issue that I see is not that "Does Indian armed forces have a technical advantage?", etc. but is our police (Punjab, Rajasthan, Gujarat, J&K, Himachal, Haryana) equipped to handle the 25 million scums if they dashed to border and cross it with their AK-47s?

Is NCC, Home Guards, BSF and CRPF equipped with ample ammunition as well as firepower to take them on?

How do you handle such piglet numbers is the question of the century.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Dec 2008 00:08

X-posted...

SGupta wrote:Many others have quoted it so I will not, its Manmohans latest peace proclamation. Forget about not being a politician, this man is an economist and has to know about options theory. Fact is that with his constantly shutting down this option he setting the war options value to zero. Keep it alive and leverage its value. In part, a very small part the West will act to preserve their interest, a supply route through Pakistan into Afghanistan.

I believe the Military at this time could strike in a limited manner within hours but the political will is not there. Its not a matter of cowardice with the politicians, its a lack of brains (yes the admins may get me for this last sentence but I am mightily ticked). Simply put what is the value of closing down that option, even if one does not intend to follow through with it. Let the PAF fly around and expend JP5 (jet fuel). They can afford it a lot less than India can.

Also I keep reading on BR the lunatic idea that there will be joint US/Indian strikes the value of that option to the US is extremely limited. What's in it for the US and why do they need India for strikes.

Regards,
Sanjay

he is right. Atleast in their mad frenzy they will expend their JPL and provide entertainment for terrorist struck desh. But MMS has closed even that no cost thing. Even entertainment is being lcosed down.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Dec 2008 00:13

Bajwa Sahib, Chota Nuke Singh will come to jange maidan to waste the infestation.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 24 Dec 2008 00:24

With these kind of Purchases
Its party time big time to make money!
War is expensive,Make money in purchases!

They havee already millions in purchases for SSG guards protecting Sonia G !

No wonder we don't want Swiss or German banks to disclose the amounts stashed and proud owners. Quattorchi must be busy, wonder why we don't understand Dawood being caught by TSP ISI?
Ask CBI why quattorchi can't be caught

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 24 Dec 2008 00:56

ramana wrote:X-posted...
SGupta wrote:Many others have quoted it so I will not, its Manmohans latest peace proclamation. Forget about not being a politician, this man is an economist and has to know about options theory. Fact is that with his constantly shutting down this option he setting the war options value to zero. Keep it alive and leverage its value. In part, a very small part the West will act to preserve their interest, a supply route through Pakistan into Afghanistan.

I believe the Military at this time could strike in a limited manner within hours but the political will is not there. Its not a matter of cowardice with the politicians, its a lack of brains (yes the admins may get me for this last sentence but I am mightily ticked). Simply put what is the value of closing down that option, even if one does not intend to follow through with it. Let the PAF fly around and expend JP5 (jet fuel). They can afford it a lot less than India can.

Also I keep reading on BR the lunatic idea that there will be joint US/Indian strikes the value of that option to the US is extremely limited. What's in it for the US and why do they need India for strikes.

Regards,
Sanjay
he is right. Atleast in their mad frenzy they will expend their JPL and provide entertainment for terrorist struck desh. But MMS has closed even that no cost thing. Even entertainment is being lcosed down.

Ramana,

I believe that there is no coordinated response between various GoI entities.
I watched the DM Anthony's live unscheduled press briefing on 12/16/2008 and it seemed to be an off-the-cuff remark. 'No one is thinking about military action'
Pre-planned press briefing from FM Mukherjee on 12/19/2008 'obliged to consider all options'
Pre-planned election rally from Sonia on 12/21/2008 'capacity to give befitting reply'
Today, MMS was addressing the media on Anthulay and watching it live, it seems that it was an off-the-cuff remark. 'nobody wants war'. Media should followed up to clarify if he meant that war is totally ruled out.

The worst case scenario is that the Union Cabinet is divided on response and the statements are manifestation of that division.

Various actors and possible position based on news sources
MMS: Wants us to go UN, use diplomacy, no force and believes in US delivering goods.
Pranab: Will pursue diplomatic options, but back up with military option
Anthony: Even though he made the 'no military action' comment, I still consider his stance as unknown
Sonia: The election rally comments could be for political consumptions, but she has stated that attackers need to pay price
Rahul: With his speech in parliament, I'm tempted to think that he wants some action.
Chidambaram: Unknown stance

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Dec 2008 01:19

Paki have few F16s which they can use to counter IAF . Question to experts here , Can Uncle shut these machines remotely?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Dec 2008 02:03

I believe that there is no coordinated response between various GoI entities.
I watched the DM Anthony's live unscheduled press briefing on 12/16/2008 and it seemed to be an off-the-cuff remark. 'No one is thinking about military action'
Pre-planned press briefing from FM Mukherjee on 12/19/2008 'obliged to consider all options'
Pre-planned election rally from Sonia on 12/21/2008 'capacity to give befitting reply'
Today, MMS was addressing the media on Anthulay and watching it live, it seems that it was an off-the-cuff remark. 'no one is talking about war'. Media is should followed up to clarify if he meant that war is totally ruled out.

The worst case scenario is that the Union Cabinet is divided on response and the statements are manifestation of that division.

The larger a group is, more is the possibility of divergence of opinion. Moreover the union cabinet reflects many different regional and group interests. However, this is a group primarily dependent for their position on the will of a single person - the Congress structure is built around "handing over personal initiative" and "decision making" into the hands of the reigning "prince/princess". If we are observing division and vacillation, it is a reflection of vacillation in this key core decision-maker, in this case SG. SG has been playing on PM for a variety of astute political considerations (1) PM is a long term associate of the G-dynasty and could belong to the special category of C-men who are entrusted/inducted into fund collection/management - and therefore are privy to secrets/weaknesses that are also mutually binding (2) PM has a limited all India political base and is also a "Bong" and therefore likely to be the target of "linguistic/ethnic xenophobia" from the dominant western Indian lobbys within Cong - which makes him an ideal barking dog for SG, someone weak enough not being able to resist her manipulations, someone ambitious enough to consciously fall into this potential death-trap, someone expendable enough ala KM to take the blame if the calculations go wrong and threaten the continuance of the dynasty (3) the tactical face of the Cong is quite clear - PM will bark loudly and pose as the "tough face", MMS will snivel posing as the non-political/professional/saintly/benevolent granddad averse to violence and "level-headed/anti-jingoist", while SG will fluctuate between these two extremes so that she can shift the blame on to any one of these two "dependent on her" minions for any of the extreme policies that turn out to be disastrous - and the dynasty is saved. This is ironically and probably significantly for me, typically a British instinct. The British policy has always been concerned about maintaining a certain family/individual/ person based institution as untainted, above criticism, infallible - to maintain "stability" of the nation - a key in their successful expansion after Restoration but as also their disastrous retreat in the long run.

This for me is the crucial weakness of the Cong regime - by relying on its ultimate inspiration on the minds of a dynasty - it relies on the theory of inherited abilities, which however may be wrong and lead to a limitation and crippling confusion in a nation's life when clarity, foresight, intelligence, and decisiveness is needed. There is nothing wrong in relying on an individual, but we should be free to be able to choose the "best" available. Indian thought patterns which believe in inherited capabilities continuing through "vamsha-latika" are utilized by interested groups to maintain themselves as "courtiers" in perpetuity.

No one should mistake this "confusion/indecision" as the confusion of a "cabinet" - it is the confusion of a single person. This is one mind which works rather slowly, has a lot of patience, is astute enough to adjust and compromise to get acceptance, but is perhaps not geared to emergency action or long term vision - this is more a "follower/consolidator mind" rather than a "visionary leader". SG is supremely concerned about the immediate horizon - where general elections loom large, here her limited vision is confused before the mixed signals being received from the West and the domestic scene, the impact of a strike against Pak is being weighed in her mind against IM reaction in the votes, whether such action actually plays into the hands of "Hindu nationalism", whether there would be any long term consequence/involvement in Pak/Afghan that can force stark choices of ideology etc. I guess the current strategy is geared towards psychological warfare, keeping the pressure up on Pak, appearing to talk tough and prepared to be "jingo" for the benefit of domestic consumption, but not get into "action mode" unless US gets involved too - and this then will be coordinated for maximum impact on the general elections. In a way she is more scared than necessary, for to a great extent, the IM vote will be a captive vote this election for the Cong - even if the Indian Muslim theologians fume within themselves for this "hated violation of the holy jihad" they have no alternative in their mindset to solidly cluster around the Cong now - their only means of surviving and protecting their networks so that they can live to fight and conquer India another day - and they will still vote for the Cong if IA pulverizes spots in Pak.

Is any of her ears or eyes listening or seeing?

hegde · Post by **hegde** » 24 Dec 2008 02:48

Why are our dumb netas not sharing evidence with Interpol?

They are making a laughing stock of India by first asserting Pakistan was behind the attacks and then not providing evidence when it was asked for.

India yet to share info on attacks: Interpol

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/23m ... terpol.htm

December 23, 2008 18:04 IST
Last Updated: December 23, 2008 18:19 IST

India has not yet authorised its investigators to share information regarding the Mumbai terror attacks [Images] with the Interpol, the chief of the Paris-based global police agency said in Islamabad [Images] on Tuesday.

"To date, India's government has not authorised India's police agencies to enter any data relating to the recent terrorist attacks in Mumbai in Interpol's databases," Interpol Secretary General Ronald K Noble told media persons.

"No information has been shared. We are hopeful that it will happen very quickly," he said after a meeting with Pakistan's Interior Ministry chief Rehman Malik.

An Interpol incident response team had been deployed in India to gather evidence and information to be shared with police databases around the world. Interpol has so far gleaned information only from the media, Noble said.

"Interpol's instant Response Team was deployed to India several days ago with the goal of gathering evidence and information which the Interpol could put in police databases that will be acceptable to Pakistan and all other countries around the world," he said.

"So far no names have been provided by Indian police and India's law enforcement authority or the government of India to Interpol to enter in its databases for Pakistan or any other countries to determine whether or not they have information or link to those individuals," Noble said.

He said Interpol had not received any information that would allow him to comment on the accuracy of media reports about the nationality and identity of the attackers.

It was also 'not acceptable internationally' for information to be put in the media and not placed in police databases, Noble said.

In the absence of reliable information in police databases, investigators around the world would not be able to determine the identities of the Mumbai attackers or their possible links to terror groups in other countries, he said.

Noting that Pakistan too had suffered at the hands of terrorists, he said the country 'needs international support and not international condemnation at such a critical time'.

The Interpol chief also said while Pakistan was willing to cooperate through his agency to help India, New Delhi [Images] would have to 'decide when and how to use' the organisation.

Noble said there were three ways through which his organisation could help India identify the terrorists and the perpetrators of the Mumbai terror attacks.

"One way is by Black Notice, which allows the identification of corpses (bodies). Another way is through a Blue Notice, which allows countries to give further information. And the third way is through Red Notice, which is to seek the arrest of people worldwide," he said.

Asked about Pakistan's cooperation with regard to Mumbai terror attacks, Noble said Islamabad had given it assurance of full cooperation in the probe.

"In terms of investigation that is underway in India, the Minister (Internal), the head of FIA (Pakistan's Federal Investigating Agency), the deputy head of Interpol -- all have agreed that Pakistan will be willing to cooperate with the Interpol to help India further its investigation in whatever India might deem appropriate," he said.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Dec 2008 03:02

Vikram_S wrote:saik

even nda was aware of trying to avoid corruption
but they did not hold up defence modernisation for saving own skin
this UPA govt is only interested in power

Typical Indian way of dithering and getting distracted. Why did the NDA not respond to the attack on Parliament and the Indian Army camp? Why did Jaswant Singh personally escort Masood Azhar to Kandhar?

Look this is not the time to score on the political front. This is the time to be a proud, patriotic Indian. This is the time to force the politicians to give up their personal security in the interests of the security of the masses. This is the time to force the politicians to band together and find solutions to these dastardly attacks instead of creating humiliating scenes in the Parliament and wasting taxpayer money. This is definitely not the time to score points of one party's achievment over the other. Hold all politicians accountable. All of them (irrespective of party) have stolen India's wealth and it is stashed away in Swiss banks. Don't give politicians a free pass or apologize for them just because you voted for them in the last election. Make these guys (NDA/UPA or whatever) work in the national interest for the people of India.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Dec 2008 03:16

Why are our dumb netas not sharing evidence with Interpol?

Well, not so dumb necessarily. Sharing information with interpol could be dangerous at this stage as it will simply get leaked to the Pakistani side - where the state machinery and its government itself is suspect, any details shared could simply be used by the Pak government to cover up lapses in this "case" or future "cases" that will arise. Since Interpol itself is likely to be a front for several western secret services, it would be unwise to share details that could be passed on to these services who may have agents or free-lancers working in the field among the Pakiban. Such info could then in the future be used to better benefit for the strategic objectives of the EU powers who may have their interests in "encouraging" the Chinese or the "Islamic powers" a bit - a little game of side moves and side payments away from the US.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 24 Dec 2008 03:19

brihaspati,

I assume you meant 'FM' Mukherjee, when you typed 'PM'.
You made valid points about SG being astute and tactically shrewd without strategic capabilities. Also, the statements emanating from various entities within GoI are reflections of SG.
My question is who are her advisers or is she acting alone?

Write up from Vir Sanghvi http://www.livemint.com/2008/03/1400245 ... -is-a.html

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 24 Dec 2008 03:40

hegde wrote: Why are our dumb netas not sharing evidence with Interpol?
They are making a laughing stock of India by first asserting Pakistan was behind the attacks and then not providing evidence when it was asked for.

In fact, the dumbest thing we can do is to hand over the evidence to Interpol or UN Security Council. You don't let other parties formulate the rules of game and then participate in it.
What will our response be if Interpol states that India's evidence doesn't point to Pakis participation. Isn't the evidence enough that Girlie Pig is paki?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Dec 2008 03:52

I assume you meant 'FM' Mukherjee, when you typed 'PM'.
You made valid points about SG being astute and tactically shrewd without strategic capabilities. Also, the statements emanating from various entities within GoI are reflections of SG.
My question is who are her advisers or is she acting alone?

Yes I used his full name and initials which is "PM"

(a pun actually also - he did dream of this once in the other sense!)

Advisers:
This is a very tricky question! She does not have clan roots in North India that supplied the Nehrus in general with political resources. But she will be advised by the surviving G-dynasty loyalists who have made a career out of such loyalty - and who will do their best to continue the dynasty as their own existence and their networks and dependants' existence depends on the survival of the dynasty. But at the same time, there has to be a shade of mutual distrust between her and the rest of the courtiers - the distrust about deep political/cultural/religious affiliations - when the crunch time comes which side she will choose - etc. She must have felt and made to feel an alienation with this country - which is rather a tragedy I would think (I admire this lady's courage and cannot help but feel sympathy for her commitment to her love and her at least formal submission to IG within a very Indian family framework - just to clarify my reasons to all those who may interpret this as a weakness for the "dynasty"

). This background is most likely to be used very subtly by a host of forces from the West who do not have to work directly but can do their work through the "moles" who were sure to have been placed probably right from the days of Motilal by the British and most likely to have been continued through the formation of Republican India and afterwards. Don't count out the Left, through whom the Russians and the Chinese will talk (as well as business interests that do business with these countries) - but my bet will be on her leaning more to the EU side of the advice spectrum.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 24 Dec 2008 04:28

Vivek K wrote:Why did Jaswant Singh personally escort Masood Azhar to Kandhar?

Vivek K, Please give JS a break. This has become a huge stick to beat him up. When this question was put to him at one of his talks in the bay area, he said that the bureaucracy decided it was best for him to go in case he has to make on the spot decisions. This is not to say what he did was right. BJP's and his inexperience as administrator showed. I am sure he will be wiser for it.

PS. This guy is steeped in Indian ethos. His love for India and Indian culture is immense.

--hanumadu

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 05:03

Vivek K wrote:Typical Indian way of dithering and getting distracted. Why did the NDA not respond to the attack on Parliament and the Indian Army camp?

this only shows your total lack of knowing about kaluchak and parliament attack, ask anyone in indian army about what the pakistani army paid for both transgression. google the term "fire assault" and what standing order from MOD was at time

Why did Jaswant Singh personally escort Masood Azhar to Kandhar?

are you just pretending or do you even know the reality of the topic including the fact that NSG was in plane? or do you know how media and public pressure was? the whole media at time made it make or break issue about "innocent" passengers. and before acting smart on this front, think about what you would have said if your family member was on this plane. after rubaiya sayeed case if any govt had left its people to be slaughtered it was unacceptable. and that was again precedent set by previous Govt. the failure was that plane went to kandahar not JS went there.

Look this is not the time to score on the political front. This is the time to be a proud, patriotic Indian.

dont be bloody stupid and stop telling me, an indian living in india about patriotism and pride. pride and patriotism is worth sh*t if it is misused like this present govt has done. watching NSG and soldier die and civilians die does nothing for pride or patriotism. these are empty stupid words to keep the public in thrall after attack after attack

do all of us stupid worthless fools in india have to die for your majesty to take notice? and then advise us to be more proud and patriotic?

it is easy to be "proud and patriotic" when you are living continent away and talking big in order to defend the UPA. i as taxpayer am not concerned about UPA's pride and honor or dignity, i am concerned about why these worthless shameless fools did not even do basic of what was expected of them.

and even now they are shameless see antulay for example. they have no basic decency, MMS defending antulay is even more. it is one thing if he is a shameless politician pretending as decent grandfather figure, who cares what he is if he defends his people. he is not even doing that.

This is the time to force the politicians to give up their personal security in the interests of the security of the masses. This is the time to force the politicians to band together and find solutions to these dastardly attacks instead of creating humiliating scenes in the Parliament and wasting taxpayer money. This is definitely not the time to score points of one party's achievment over the other. Hold all politicians accountable. All of them (irrespective of party) have stolen India's wealth and it is stashed away in Swiss banks. Don't give politicians a free pass or apologize for them just because you voted for them in the last election. Make these guys (NDA/UPA or whatever) work in the national interest for the people of India.

i am not interested in your predictable defence of the UPA and congress whenever MMS and co are criticized by diverting blame to "all politicians"

if there is anything worthwhile you have to add say so. otherwise what you have written is the same nauseating stuff that allow people like MMS and SG to avoid culpability for present attack on india which are killing people non stop. the present UPA will NOT work for indian interests they will not even kick out antulay for his words

if you were concerned about your own words you would be yelling the loudest for this present govt to go. instead by diverting this to corruption you are making an excuse for present Govt and trying to defend their incompetence

they have failed nation totally. instead you make generic statement and try to divert the blame for their incompetence, instead on this forum attack after attack you repeat the same business

whether you like it or not or no matter how much you personally love the bloody congress and defend them all the time this is not the congress of indira gandhi or pv rao. this is weak ineffective govt. this Govt has been TOTAL failure on internal security. it does not affect you, but it affect me. i dont have 7 layer SPG protection. common citizen travels to work in common buses, autorickshaws and work in vulnerable areas. his family members are all vulnerable.

if NDA was anywhere this bad i would have cursed them also. at least they began ambitious modernisation of armed forces and practised hard option in parakram scaring pakis. this bloody UPA is so full of votebank idiots like antulay they will do NOTHING.

so sit safe in US with your pride and patriotism but only thing available to us worthless people in india are prayers that these bunch of idiots go and next bunch of people are more hawkish on pakistan terrorism

Admin notice: Please restrain your language and avoid calling people out based on where they live. Discuss, argue, do whatever but do so with restraint. Please use capital letters to start your sentences and full-stops to end them. Next time you will get a warning.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 24 Dec 2008 05:10

Sorry folks
I am extremely optoimostic that all this tamasha will end up as damp squib.

Right now people are working out a face saving exit for all

War is expensive business its not worth it.

We can't be distracted by few mumbai wallahs died. We need to continue to build our economy. Also just brace for the next attack. And few more lives and few more heros

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 05:25

Right now people are working out a face saving exit for all

that is what the problem is. there is sure to be next attack and it will be much worse and brutal. thank to mai baap govt and widespread corruption (which means that firearms restriction is thought good idea), almost nobody in india has weapons.

end result all there is at every corner is stupid private security and unarmed police constable whose live are nothing for jihadis.
and then we will be told after next attack to be "proud patriotic indians" and die like stupid sheep at hands of next "kasai" so that madam maino and shri honest MMS with 7 layer SPG can be safe

next attack on india will be WMD attack because this govt has not even prepared to deter basic attack.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 24 Dec 2008 05:42

Prem wrote:Paki have few F16s which they can use to counter IAF . Question to experts here , Can Uncle shut these machines remotely?

For once I can comment from an expert perspective. The F-16s themselves cannot be remotely shut down, unless you mean, using a remote-piloted Predator or a cruise missile to visit the airbase and the hangar. However this is not necessary. It is a widely known fact that each US-supplied missile these days (i.e., since about 1999/2000 time frame following the USS Cole attack and the resulting US jhapad against Pakistani terrorist bases) has the End User Compliance Assurance Mechanism (EUCAM). This means that when the target info is entered into the missile, the EUCAM determines if this is a valid target under the End User Certificate agreement under which the missile was sold (gifted, in the case of Pakistan). If it does not match, there is no warning. The missile simply waits until it is launched, and tracks its way back to the base from which it was launched, if that is within range, or loops back after the platform (aircraft, ship, tank, jeep, Toyota, silo, missile launcher) and explodes when the proximity sensor determines that it is within lethal range.

The EUCAM is not enabled on all systems, but it sure is enabled on AAMs and cruise missiles. The first time the Pakis try to shoot down an Indian or NATO plane or US of Indian or any other nation's ship (except maybe those of North Korea, Eyeran, Libya, Somalia and maybe even Saudi Arabia - I wouldn't know such details or can't say), they have a BIG surprise waiting for them. If this happens in an interceptor mission, the missile can actually make it back to the base and explode.

Unfortunately I don't know if the EUCAM is enabled on SAMs. Unfortunately China is not included on the list of acceptable targets, since the US doesn't want a US-China war to be started by the Paki terrorists.

Hope this clarifies the answer to ur question. The US is not as stupid as some ppl here think.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Dec 2008 05:47

there were reports that paki f-16s don't include m2k's in their threat libraries.
you know what that means !

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Dec 2008 06:49

AOA!!
Tuck So Myket.

Bakis cannot be sure. Their F16s might turn out to be "IF"16s , depending on Uncle's mood.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 24 Dec 2008 06:51

To the best of my knowledge, none of Paki F-16s have BVR capabilities. So, Paki F-16s will not be able to defend themselves if attacked in the flight from a beyond visual range attacker.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 24 Dec 2008 06:51

Pak army dares India

New Delhi, Dec. 23: The foreign secretary, Mr Shivshankar Menon, has made a reference to a dimension of the recent terrorist attack in Mumbai which, taken to its logical conclusion, makes an appropriate Indian response inescapable. Addressing Indian amba-ssadors and high commissioners from around the world on the opening day of their two-day conference here on Monday, the foreign secretary noted that the terrorists had made no effort whatsoever to cover their tracks.

Sources familiar with the heads of mission conference said this indicated, according to Mr Menon, that the calculated brazenness was intended to convey the message to New Delhi that the Army was fully in control in Pakistan, and was daring India to do whatever it could. According to the Indian reading, the Pakistan Army controls all levers of power, though there has been a visible decline, over time, in the popular esteem that it enjoys.

Inviting an Indian reaction to the Mumbai assault is seen as a stratagem to rally national opinion around the armed forces. Such a move is also said to signal that the Indians must get used to deal with the Pakistan Army once again, rather than with the notional civilian government. Sources said the foreign secretary conveyed the sense that India needed to respond in a manner that would have a long-term effect on its dealings with Pakistan.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 24 Dec 2008 07:06

Ramana,

I believe that there is no coordinated response between various GoI entities.
The worst case scenario is that the Union Cabinet is divided on response and the statements are manifestation of that division.

Various actors and possible position based on news sources
MMS: Wants us to go UN, use diplomacy, no force and believes in US delivering goods.
Pranab: Will pursue diplomatic options, but back up with military option
Anthony: Even though he made the 'no military action' comment, I still consider his stance as unknown
Sonia: The election rally comments could be for political consumptions, but she has stated that attackers need to pay price
Rahul: With his speech in parliament, I'm tempted to think that he wants some action.
Chidambaram: Unknown stance[/quote]

I think the GOI is trying the carrot and stick approach...