Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 02 Aug 2010 05:46

Cosmo_R wrote:Mahendra wrote: That must be a really expensive car to use on a soosai mission.

It's the Ultimate Shriving Machine

There are no recalls for malfunctioning sunroof levers. Saves calling in fire trucks to hose and wash the area after any kind of mission with BMWs.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 02 Aug 2010 05:46

Another slap on face to the ghairatmand kaum

Pakistan row: David Cameron 'should not apologise for speaking the truth'

So the head of Pakistan’s spy agency, the ISI, has cancelled the intelligence component of this week’s visit by Pakistan’s president because David Cameron suggested that the country should not 'look both ways’.
Does this matter? Should the Prime Minister now row back and ingratiate his visitor?

Yes, it may matter, though time will tell. But no, there should be no apology for saying in public what has been said privately for years: the truth.

What has really annoyed the Pakistanis is that the words were uttered in India.

The Pakistani army have always drawn a distinction between these and other groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba (formally banned but still operational) and the Haqqani network which they regard as 'freedom fighters’, essentially para-military reservists for use in the event of conflict with India. These groups have found sanctuary in Pakistan while attacking Indian and coalition targets in Afghanistan.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 02 Aug 2010 05:55

I am speechless

Need for uninterrupted dialogue with Pakistan: Aiyar

Stressing the need for a 'structured and uninterrupted dialogue' with Pakistan, senior Congress leader Mani Shankar Aiyar on Sunday called for a fixed time frame for making the process fruitful. "There had never been a structured and uninterrupted dialogue in the last 60 years. Only over the last
30 years did we talk more frequently. The dialogues should be integrated and not fractured", the Rajya Sabha member said at a panel discussion on 'Pakistan, India and the Peace Process: The Way Forward', organised by a city-based magazine.

Stating that there should not be any veto from either side so that the talks could be carried forward, Aiyar advocated holding the talks in places like the Wagah border instead of five star hotels, "to feel the warmth and emotion of the people of the two countries."

"To arrive at a conclusion, we need a commitment which can bring us a solution at inter-state level", the former diplomat said.

"A fruitful dialogue is possible with the democratic government of Pakistan if we could help it resolve the problem of terrorism," he said.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 02 Aug 2010 05:55

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan has as much fissile material as India
Pakistan may already have not just more nuclear warheads than India but also almost as much fissile material as its eastern neighbour to assemble an almost equal number of more nukes. These worrying disclosures for India are a part of a report on world nuclear stockpile by top US nuclear experts and researchers Hans M Kristensen and Robert S Norris for the prestigious Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

I see a pattern in the news items regarding TSP's mardhangini better than India. It comes whenever there is mental pressure in the system. Whenver there is an iota of doubt that India may be fed up and could contemplate an outright attack these news items come. I see the following cause/reason effects:

(1) Something leakes that tells the Indian intel/strat-reader that TSP does have some fissile but all is just fizz
(2) Due to some intel info there is a possibility tha Indian-start-reader can ignore the western-hedge inside TSP
(3) There is something that is being done (TSP and its 3.5 ) which will really piss off India

These news items are actually conveying warning/threat/reminder to India about TSP. Do not do anything remotely that will threaten the integrity of TSP otherwise we will give/allow them .....

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 02 Aug 2010 06:01

US aid arrives in pakistan. See the packages they are all halal certified

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da6lNsypVak[/youtube]

Afsos no f solah or submarines included in the packets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da6lNsypVak)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Aug 2010 06:08

http://unitedstatesofislam.com/2010/04/ ... er-attack/
Lot of fake imagination and hallucination.

How a Pakistani from 1947 feels about himself.

Where does a foreigner – a real one, like me – go to understand this beautiful, ferociously angry, ripped-up, intelligent, hopelessly overcrowded, war-smitten country?

Raza Kazim admits only to being in his eighties, but he has a perfunctory, almost irritatingly child-like way of twining his thin fingers together while trying to define his love of country, his belief in the worth of Pakistan. His is speaking over the throb of the air-conditioners, as an unprecedented spring heat warms up the Lahore trees outside his home. He brings in two frozen cans of Murree beer and is vexed that I won’t join him. I can see why he led the first strike in his Indian school’s history.

“I benefited vastly from the Raj,” he says. “It wasn’t a love-hate relationship – it was a love-adversarial relationship. My heart went out to the ‘Quit India’ movement, and I was coming from the peasantry. It was a time when peasants could be flogged for two rupees. I had a belief in freedom and in 1946, I took a leap of faith and feeling.”

Some faith. Some feeling. Kazim is a kind of ‘guru’ – in the original meaning of the word, an elderly advisor/oracle for generations of Pakistani politicians – and his involvement in the Indian National Congress of British India, then in the Muslim League and later in the Pakistan People’s Party, have turned him into the Malcolm Muggeridge – or perhaps Tony Benn – of Pakistan. A lawyer and ex-Communist whose philanthropy has produced the Sanjan Nagar School Institute of Philosophy and Arts, and the inventor of a stringed musical instrument intended to preserve South Asian classical music as a modern art form, he has two qualifications for Pakistani sainthood: he was kidnapped by military intelligence in 1984, and has been jailed five times between 1950 and 1985. His other quality is historical; he still thinks the date is 1947 and he smiles when he realises that I agree with him.

“August 1947 was a kind of competition between Hindus and Muslims,” he recalls, the fingers beginning to twist around each other, the lamp-light reflecting his baldness as dusk brings out the big birds in the garden. “Who would give a better account of freedom? I never had a sense of India being divided. It was like the people were split into two teams. Who would score more runs off freedom?”

Freedom at midnight, I murmured. At what cost? “Yes, there was bloodshed in Bihar. There was bloodshed in Delhi, a lot of bloodshed in the Punjab – but that was action and reaction. Then it spread into the Deccan area. They (the new Indian state) took soldiers from the Punjab whose children had been murdered here and whose women had been abducted here, and sent them to the Deccan area where they bashed the heads of [Muslim] children against pillars. Yes, I know what happened in those trains.

“The political capital made out of these killings is another story – a bad story, but a different story. The events were capitalised. But bloodshed didn’t begin with Pakistan. The first genocide of Indian history took place in the Punjab in 3,000 BC – it was a conflict between feudal and pastoral

Kazim had it easy. “On 13 September, 1947, I came on a plane to Pakistan as guest of the Indian communications minister. I came with my gramophone records, books and poetry, and two sets of clothes.” It is a very post-colonial story. While the masses tore each other to pieces below, Kazim’s plane soared above the bloodbath to drop him as a witness to the mass looting of the new Pakistan’s most beautiful city, Lahore.

“People think of the properties taken from the Hindus and Sikhs, but the most important things were the jobs, the business, the vacancies, and grabbing those properties. The educated people looted and took things away in trucks – these were the people who were going to run the country. It became a sign of patriotism that you forged property papers to homes in India that you never had – this was thought to be a patriotic duty because the Indians had three times as many claims against us. The bureaucracy had been civil servants under the British system – they were middle-level bureaucrats in India, who had suddenly become senior bureaucrats in Pakistan.” Mohammad Jinnah, the founder of the state, who died in 1948 – Kazim went to his funeral – “had a weakness for flattery. He didn’t keep good company.”

I’ve heard this story before, albeit less eloquently told. Pakistan existed, but there was no sign of a developing society or the creation of a nation. “We have still not made a society,” Kazim says. “People have to take something out of their personal lives and invest it in our society.” There is a pause here, then Kazim’s voice rises. “WE ARE STILL IN 1947!” Pakistan obtained its freedom under the Indian Independence Act – but there is nothing called the Pakistan Independence Act.”

Ahsan’s new book, The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan suggests that there were two culturally different regions of the land which the British called India, that there was a continuous social and political order in the Indus region – the bit that became Pakistan – that was quite different from that of the rest of India.

On Pakistani independence, the structure of state-Raj versus the citizen-native did not change. As Ahsan puts it bleakly, “the military officers who on 14 August, 1947, saluted the raising of the green standard with crescent and star had on the 13 August been saluting the Union Jack. They couldn’t change in a day. Somebody else had fought for independence. The ‘natives’ remained and continued to be denied democratic rights until 1970.”

It’s sometimes difficult to find the line between aggression and fear in Pakistan. We in the West fear its nuclear weapons without even looking at a map of the country about which we obsess with such devotion.

Every major city – Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar, Quetta – is close to the borders of India or Afghanistan. It is a both sump of poverty and a nuclear power, an intelligent nation – its people desire education with the same craving as the Palestinians – with a history that began and ended at the moment of partition, its datelines framed by military coups and imperial hand-outs and, now, by drone attacks and suicide bombers. The latter arrived with a peculiar shock in Pakistan. They started in Lebanon, moved to ‘Palestine’, then to Iraq and then to Afghanistan – and then to Pakistan. From the Mediterranean to the old Raj, this black-magic rite travelled with incredible speed. And now it has merged with the dirt and corruption and nuclear power of Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2010 06:21

Acharya wrote: Lot of fake imagination and hallucination.

How a Pakistani from 1947 feels about himself.

And we can trust you to give such a site more mileage using your posting privileges from inside BRF. Thanks for the favor, on behalf of all Poakis,

I think one must ask whether anything is achieved by posting such links. Perhaps you feel you are informing people what they should know about poakis. But you are preaching to the converted here and are giving unconverted lurkers a chance to visit that website and give it more hits and better search ratings from Google. Talk about self goals.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 02 Aug 2010 06:27

Dawn Edit

A couple of puzzling questions arise regarding India’ stated position. First, it is not clear what there is to discuss about terrorism. Both sides agree that it is a vile practice, and that it should be eradicated. The Pakistan Army has been fighting the Taliban who carry out terrorist attacks. Bomb blasts, suicide bombings and other terrorist acts take place in Pakistani cities almost every other day. By contrast only a few terrorist attacks have been mounted in India since Mumbai and these are said to have been engineered by “home grown” Indian elements. Unless my remembrance is wrong, Indian officials have never stated what exactly they want to tell their Pakistani counterparts about terrorism.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 02 Aug 2010 06:37

Point of rupture ---- Nadeem F. Paracha

The state-owned PTV started to run regular bulletins on the latest whereabouts of the Skylab, usually read by Azhar Lodhi – a newscaster, who would go on to become a ubiquitous presence on PTV across the Zia years.

Lodhi maintained a sombre tone in the bulletins, and then started to punctuate them with equally sombre pleas for prayers. Suddenly, most Pakistanis who till then had taken the affair lightly began using apocalyptic overtones while speaking (to PTV and newsmen) about the event.

Many, including members of the urban middle-classes, even went to the extent of wondering whether the fall of the Skylab (on Pakistan) may announce the beginning of Allah’s Day of Judgment.

However, with Zia’s Islamic laws starting to come into force, and PTV doubling the number of Islamic programmes in its transmission, many young middle-class Pakistanis saw themselves being led (mostly by fear), towards mosques as Lodhi continued to dramatically announce the closing in of the falling Skylab.

The Skylab eventually fell (on July 12, 1979), over the ocean and the deserts of Australia, and once the feared Day of Judgment did not come, the episode was quickly forgotten.

The event elapsed but the apocalyptic outlook that it had triggered in the Pakistani society lingered, and it was this grim point of view that worked well for the Zia dictatorship to intensify its ‘Islamic’ man oeuvres and appeal.

On November 20 1979, members of a shady and ultra-rightist Islamist group entered the premises of the grand mosque in Mecca. The besieging group was made up of about a hundred men, most of them Saudis.

All of them were followers of Abdul Aziz bin Baaz who was Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti. Bazz had been incensed by the presence of western workers in Saudi Arabia who had been hired by the monarchy to manage the large amounts of oil wealth the Kingdom had accumulated.

The mosque was taken while pilgrims were present. Some were allowed to leave, while a number of others were taken hostage. Mayhem ensued. For days the militants fought bloody gun battles with Saudi forces.

PTV was telecasting a cricket Test match between Pakistan and India being played in the Indian city of Bangalore on the day of the siege, when the transmission was suddenly interrupted and Azhar Lodhi appeared on screen.

Again in his dead-pan sombre tone, he announced the attack without giving many details about the attackers, leaving the viewers guessing as to who these men could be.

PTV did not return to the Test match; instead it started to run naats – odes to Prophet Muhammad – and recitations from the Quran. PTV had the details of the attack, but on the advice of the military regime, it did not announce that the attackers were all Muslims.

arun · Post by **arun** » 02 Aug 2010 07:39

Mahendra wrote:
shravan wrote:BMW’s latest 5 Series model launched in Pakistan

When asked about the BMW’s potential market in Pakistan, Mazhar Khan told us that the manufacturer caters to a select group of 280 families in the country.
That must be a really expensive car to use on a soosai mission.

X Posted from Page 16 of this thread:

arun wrote:In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan sales of BMW car models soar 180 % during the year ………………… to reach 14 cars sold.

BMW sales growth hits 13pc

Meanwhile BMW records sales of 3,941 cars for the year ended March 2010 in India:

BMW targets leadership slot with new 5 Series

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 02 Aug 2010 07:59

Acharya wrote:
Ahsan’s new book, The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan suggests that there were two culturally different regions of the land which the British called India, that there was a continuous social and political order in the Indus region – the bit that became Pakistan – that was quite different from that of the rest of India.
......................................................................................
On Pakistani independence, the structure of state-Raj versus the citizen-native did not change. As Ahsan puts it bleakly, “the military officers who on 14 August, 1947, saluted the raising of the green standard with crescent and star had on the 13 August been saluting the Union Jack. They couldn’t change in a day. Somebody else had fought for independence. The ‘natives’ remained and continued to be denied democratic rights until 1970.”

Incidentally, Tarun Vijay wrote about this book a while ago. Posted below.

Breaking all such divisive barriers a Pakistani scholar-politician Aitzaz Ahsan has come out with his thesis of the “Indus people”. He refuses to accept that Islam is Arabization and says Pakistan can't have an Arab or central Asian identity. The only identity that befits Pakistan is an Indus identity. So he names the entire region of the present-day Pakistan as Indus.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opin ... 302358.cms

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2010 08:15

Perhaps it is best not to get into the Paki game of comparing BMW sales in India versus those in Pakistan.

I believe that in the West (read America) BMW ownership is an indicator of having made it somewhere in life. In India however - buying a car that costs 50 lakhs or more and gives 8 km per liter on city roads compared to Indian manufactured cars that give 15 km per liter on city roads with a buying cost of less than 2.5 lakhs makes the BMW primarily a toy for the miners, and the Salman Khans and others who are able to have personal bodyguards for protection against mafia who target the super wealthy. Even successful IT and other business types often stay away from BMWs and Mercs for this and a variety of other reasons - including the fact that the average speed on a city road in India is 12 to 15 kmph, BMW or no BMW, and parking for BMWs is possible only in reserved lots or the driver goes and waits with your BMW somewhere until you need a pick up. So much for the BMW being a pleasure to drive. I have seen at least two Hummers in Bangalore. Iraq has more Hummers than India I guess, but the India owners probably have a lower IQ.

Overall BMW and Merc are minor players who are in no way interested in catering to India requirements and are naturally looking for profits from anywhere. The Pakistan and India sales depatments are probably headed by a head office in Dubai or some such place. And even if there is a head office in India it probably serves as a stepping off point for sales in Pakistan - serving exactly the same function as Aman ki tamasha and border trade.

When people talk about trade between India and Pakistan an whole lot of companies doing business in India are looking for access via India into Pakistan, with Indian salaries and workforce serving as subsidy for increased Pakistan sales. It is BMW that is laughing all the way to the bank so there is not much to proud about.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Aug 2010 08:22

shiv wrote:
And we can trust you to give such a site more mileage using your posting privileges from inside BRF. Thanks for the favor, on behalf of all Poakis,

Dont bother

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Aug 2010 08:58

http://worldmeets.us/thefrontierpost000054.shtml
Check out the cartoon of cameron doing kathak and Invitation to Head of Pakistan , Dus percenti at the bottom
Pakistan's 'Ruling Clan of Bleating Sheep' Soil the Nation
( Poaks afraid this time begging bowl, the eternal lota might not be filled with Khairat so all the (H&C) Hue and Cry to save H&D.

Hubristically-arrogant British Prime Minister David Cameron cheekily states that Pakistan is exporting terrorism, and picks up thunderous cheers from his Indian audience, along with a purchase order from the Indian government for dozens of trainer jets worth over $1 billion. A disputed Afghan President, Hamid Karzai, who has little authority beyond the outer gates of his presidential palace and the municipality of Kabul, leaps upon the publication of U.S. military files by Wikileaks and screams for Afghan Taliban "sanctuaries" in Pakistan to be taken out. And what's the response of Islamabad's cringing and servile hierarchy to these audacious outpourings by Cameron and Karzai? The entire ruling clan of sheep can only bleat of how this will impact negatively on the "war on terror!" President Zardari mumbles it, as do Prime Minister Gilani, Foreign Minister Qureshi and all the rest. Who will tell these ignoramuses that the street doesn’t give a damn if this war is affected or not, or even if it goes completely haywire, when it's become such an open wound on our body politic? It has cost the nation dearly in blood and treasure without gaining us honest gratitude from anywhere in the world.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 02 Aug 2010 09:10

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan has as much fissile material as India
Pakistan may already have not just more nuclear warheads than India but also almost as much fissile material as its eastern neighbour to assemble an almost equal number of more nukes. These worrying disclosures for India are a part of a report on world nuclear stockpile by top US nuclear experts and researchers Hans M Kristensen and Robert S Norris for the prestigious Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

I remember a PBS program from Circa 2002-2003. There were two Indian journalists being interviewed by Charlie Rose ( or may be John Mclaughlin ). One of them mentioned that Indian stockpile of fissile material was over 9 tons. That's enough fissile material to make over 1500 nukes.

Now in 2010 the total fissile material should be > 9 tons, no?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Aug 2010 09:52

http://www.princeton.edu/sgs/publicatio ... 6-No-3.pdf
2008 estimate of India's fissile material.
May not be appropriate for a TSP thread. I will remove if asked.

partha · Post by **partha** » 02 Aug 2010 09:59

deleted.
This pic has already been posted on positive neuj thread.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2010 10:04

Excuse me India is a peace loving country. We are not building up huge stocks of bombs like Pakistan.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Aug 2010 10:29

Acharya wrote:
Ahsan’s new book, The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan suggests that there were two culturally different regions of the land which the British called India, that there was a continuous social and political order in the Indus region – the bit that became Pakistan – that was quite different from that of the rest of India.

Carl_T wrote:Incidentally, Tarun Vijay wrote about this book a while ago. Posted below.
Breaking all such divisive barriers a Pakistani scholar-politician Aitzaz Ahsan has come out with his thesis of the “Indus people”. He refuses to accept that Islam is Arabization and says Pakistan can't have an Arab or central Asian identity. The only identity that befits Pakistan is an Indus identity. So he names the entire region of the present-day Pakistan as Indus.

There is history behind the 'Indus people' narrative of Aitzaz Ahsan. And, Aitzaz Ahsan should not be credited with the 'Indus people' interpretation of Pakistan. As I said in another post before, the problem with Pakistan was the clash between territorial and extra-territorial affinity. When Jinnah & Co. created Pakistan, was it a watan (homeland) or mulk (nation) or an ummah (community) ? Soon after the Partition, tension arose between the mohajir (who migrated from Gangetic belt) and the locals. The locals, especially in the Sind, hated the 'takeover' of their beloved Karachi & Hyderabad by the mohajir. The mohajir claimed that they had more 'inner Pakistaniyat' than the locals because they were like the Meccan locals of the Hashimi clan who accompanied the Prophet on his hijra to Medina while the locals were only ansars. Thus the Islamic civilization of Jinnah lay in tatters from day one.

The announcement of Urdu accentuated the problem. The East Pakistanis, with fierce pride in their Bengali language, proved that the 'Islamic civilization' could not overcome ethno linguistic divisions. The anti-Ahmedi riots in Lahore and elsewhere and later the anti-Shia agitations broke the ummah facade. The 1971 secession was to bury the unifying nature of 'Islamic civilization' for ever. But, that was later. In the meanwhile, the decision to shift the capital of Pakistan from Karachi to Islamabad in the Punjab created more heartburn for the Sindhis and the mohajirs. They now began to be equally affected by the Punjabi domination. The 'One Unit' concept of Ayub Khan to create parity between the numerically inferior West Pakistan and the numerically superior East Pakistan added its own dynamic to the burial of ummah. Pakistan's attempts to create a new identity came a cropper.

Thus, the dismemberment of Pakistan in 1971 was the final straw to the attempts by Pakistan to find a solution to the vexatious question of 'Pakistani identity'. There appeared a messiah in the form of one Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who wanted to reconcile regionalism (Sindhi, Punjabi etc.) with nationalism. But, the Balochis claimed that they were Balochis for thousands of years, Muslims for about a thousand years and Pakistanis for not more than thirty years. So, Bhutto decided to teach them a lesson in ethnicity by strafing them with PAF fighters. The mohajirs wanted a 'Karachi suba' for themselves so that the rootless mohajirs can claim their own province in accordance with ZAB's attempts. This created more suspicion and tension among the Sindhis.

Amidst all this confusion of Pakistani identity, an archaelogist by name A.H. Dani, coined the 'Indus identity'. Thus Pakistan is an 'Indus State' and Pakistanis are 'Indus people'.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2010 10:40

SS Ji,

Aren't the Indians the original Indus people. As India is the land beyond the Indus. Having said that, what is the cultural history of these Indus people, if we are to grant this identity to them. Are they the inheritors of IVC. If yes then being Muslims wont they be required to give up all claims of being inheritors of IVC. If they disclaim IVC then they can't be Indus people.

So the quest for Paki identity continues. Just one more stick with which to beat TSP.

Am loving the intellectual confusion of TSP.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 02 Aug 2010 10:57

Pratyush wrote:
Aren't the Indians the original Indus people. As India is the land beyond the Indus. Having said that, what is the cultural history of these Indus people, if we are to grant this identity to them. Are they the inheritors of IVC. If yes then being Muslims wont they be required to give up all claims of being inheritors of IVC. If they disclaim IVC then they can't be Indus people.

I think that's the idea - to claim the cultural legacy of the IVC while maintaining an Islamic identity. Don't think it will happen but I guess it is based on the idea of following Muslim nations like Egypt and Iran who still consider themselves the inheritors of their ancient civilizations. (I don't know if Iraqis do). So I don't think it is correct to say that being Muslim is in conflict with such a view.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Aug 2010 11:01

Pratyush wrote:Aren't the Indians the original Indus people.

Pratyush, Jinnah was very angry that Bharat appropriated 'India' which derived from 'Indus'. He felt strongly that 'India' was actually Pakistan.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2010 11:12

SS sar

That just goes to show the bankruptcy of the Idea of Pakistan and the world wonders why they are so fluked up.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2010 11:18

Carl_T wrote:
I think that's the idea - to claim the cultural legacy of the IVC while maintaining an Islamic identity. Don't think it will happen but I guess it is based on the idea of following Muslim nations like Egypt and Iran who still consider themselves the inheritors of their ancient civilizations. (I don't know if Iraqis do). So I don't think it is correct to say that being Muslim is in conflict with such a view.

CT,

Then how do they justify such unremitting hostility towards India. If they can claim to be inheritors of IVC. Cause India as it exists today is a living embodiment of IVC and the creation of TSP was a repudiation of everything India and IVC stood for.

Let me do an = = with TSP. TSP= Islam in their minds.

India = IVC in reality. (TSP cannot be allowed to claim any part of this inheritance )

Thats why I said it is convenient stick with which we can beat them.

JMT as usual.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 02 Aug 2010 11:19

Carl_T wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
Aren't the Indians the original Indus people. As India is the land beyond the Indus. Having said that, what is the cultural history of these Indus people, if we are to grant this identity to them. Are they the inheritors of IVC. If yes then being Muslims wont they be required to give up all claims of being inheritors of IVC. If they disclaim IVC then they can't be Indus people.

I think that's the idea - to claim the cultural legacy of the IVC while maintaining an Islamic identity. Don't think it will happen but I guess it is based on the idea of following Muslim nations like Egypt and Iran who still consider themselves the inheritors of their ancient civilizations. (I don't know if Iraqis do). So I don't think it is correct to say that being Muslim is in conflict with such a view.

For Pakis it is. For being the inheritors of Mahabharata and Ramayana would be a grave islamic sin or something like that.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 02 Aug 2010 11:27

Prem wrote:Ricochet
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-danz ... 66534.html

( Unable to fix the image)

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Aug 2010 11:28

shiv wrote:Excuse me India is a peace loving country. We are not building up huge stocks of bombs like Pakistan.

Right you are saar,

More bombs more piece onlee.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 02 Aug 2010 11:29

Pratyush wrote: Then how do they justify such unremitting hostility towards India. If they can claim to be inheritors of IVC. Cause India as it exists today is a living embodiment of IVC and the creation of TSP was a repudiation of everything India and IVC stood for.

Dipanker wrote: For Pakis it is. For being the inheritors of Mahabharata and Ramayana would be a grave islamic sin or something like that.

That's why I'm saying it is not likely for Pakistan to claim any inheritance from the IVC as long as they maintain Hindus as the "other". Nations like Iran and Egypt don't have their pre-Islamic civilizations to "refudiate"

so they can comfortably claim ancestry. I was more responding to your general assertion about Muslims claiming inheritance from pre-Islamic civilizations.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Aug 2010 11:38

Prem wrote:http://worldmeets.us/thefrontierpost000054.shtml
Check out the cartoon of cameron doing kathak and Invitation to Head of Pakistan , Dus percenti at the bottom

That's not Kathak - that's Cameron raising his skirt to flirt with Indian PM

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Aug 2010 11:44

Amber G. wrote:Fareed Zakaria's interview with Hilal-i-Pakistan John Kerry and Pakistani Ambassador today on GPS is worth watching.

Interesting was Map of Pakistan, shown to Paki Ambassador was with NO part of Kashmir shown as a part of Pakistan (and none described as disputed) and Paki Ambassador, not even once, mentioned, Kashmir, objected to the map, or complained about India's bad designs on Pak, or even a HINT or any qualification of ('false' or even 'alleged' word was not used) role of terror which Pak was involved in Mumbai cased ... NO == to 'Raw inspired terror' (as in 'both' sides involved)... asking that Pak be given a chance, things have or going to be really changed etc... (asking India to trust American 'good boy' pat on the back)..

On one of the Fareed Z's question (asking LET's involvement and ISI/Pak govt involvement per Wiki leaks), his answer was not of the kind "its all rubbish" but rather something to the effect "If he was a history professor his answer would be different (more honest '?') than as an ambassador ..!

In all... worth watching the whole interview...Fareed got even clear (not rambling) answers from Kerry.

Here's the link:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/us ... e.intv.cnn

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Aug 2010 11:48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqkQKk9S_8E

US officials believe that the intelligence agency of ally Pakistan has been secretly supporting the Taliban in their conflict with US-led Nato troops in Afghanistan, leaked records say.

Wikileaks, the online whistleblower organisation, published more than 90,000 secret US military documents on Sunday, revealing alleged support for the Taliban.

The unverified files say that Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, the country's spy service, has been holding strategy sessions with Taliban leaders to aid them.

Al Jazeera interviewed one of the men specifically mentioned in the reports - retired Lieutenant General Hamid Gul, who has been accused of being actively involved in supporting the Afghan Taliban.

He denied the allegations and said the sources of the "flawed" leaks had ulterior political motives.

[July 26, 2010]

He talks about how extension of Gen Kiyani has been supported by US an d others.
This validation is very important for them since that legitimises the Nukes.
It gives them enough confidence that the west is not coming towards them

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2010 11:51

Carl_T wrote:
I was more responding to your general assertion about Muslims claiming inheritance from pre-Islamic civilizations.

Ah....

MOI being an argumentative Yndian

did not see the point of agreement.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 02 Aug 2010 11:56

Pratyush wrote:
Ah....

MOI being an argumentative Yndian did not see the point of agreement.

My mistake, wasn't clear.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 02 Aug 2010 12:05

JUST IN: IMF demands end of subsidy on electricity by the end of August, Pakistan assure IMF of 6% to 7% raise in power tariff by September.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Aug 2010 12:09

Now that Wikleaks has exposed the Paki duplicity,the mainstream US journals are all stampeding into action,as if they didn't know the truth all along! fareed zak's "New-Speak",is one of the prime offenders and here tries to make amends with this piece!

Afghan Talibs on Pakis....

“They’re like psychopaths,” he says. “One minute your friend, the next minute your enemy.”

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/31/with ... these.html

With Friends Like These…
The Afghan Taliban say they have one thing in common with the Americans: they’re both getting played by Pakistan.

Excerpts:

The Afghan Taliban logistics officer laughs about the news he’s been hearing on his radio this past week. The story is that a Web site known as WikiLeaks has obtained and posted thousands of classified field reports from U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and hundreds of those reports mention the Americans’ suspicions that Pakistan is secretly assisting the Taliban—a charge that Pakistan has repeatedly and vehemently denied. “At least we have something in common with America,” the logistics officer says. “The Pakistanis are playing a double game with us, too.”

Pakistan’s ongoing support of the Afghan Taliban is anything but news to insurgents who have spoken to NEWSWEEK. Requesting anonymity for security reasons, many of them readily admit their utter dependence on the country’s Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) not only for sanctuary and safe passage but also, some say, for much of their financial support. The logistics officer, speaking at his mud-brick compound near the border, offers an unverifiable estimate that Pakistan provides roughly 80 percent of the insurgents’ funding, based on his conversations with other senior Taliban. He says the insurgents could barely cover their expenses in Kandahar province alone if not for the ISI. Not that he views them as friends. “They feed us with one hand and arrest and kill us with the other,” he says.

That illustrates a central point, Taliban say: the only thing Pakistan can be relied on for is a single-minded pursuit of its own national interest. Some ISI operatives may sympathize with the Taliban cause. But more important is Pakistan’s desire to have a hand in Afghan politics and to restrict Indian influence there. “They’re neither in bed with the [Afghan] Taliban nor opposed to them,” says Stephen Biddle, an analyst at the Council on Foreign Relations. “The reality is that they’re in between, which is the rational place for them to be.”

The insurgents say they, too, never know what to expect from the Pakistanis. “Sometimes they’re angry, sometimes friendly,” says a district commander in southern Afghanistan. “Sometimes they want to show us who’s boss.” No Afghan insurgent can be sure he’s safe, says the smuggler, a former Taliban subcommander. After all, he observes, some of the Taliban commanders arrested by the Pakistanis were once favorites of the ISI. “They’re like psychopaths,” he says. “One minute your friend, the next minute your enemy.”

The Pakistanis, for their part, continue to resist U.S. pressure for strikes against Taliban sanctuaries. “Their aim seems to be to prolong the war in Afghanistan by aiding both the Americans and us,” says the logistics officer. “That way Pakistan continues to receive billions from the U.S., remains a key regional player, and still maintains influence with [the Taliban].” And which side is Pakistan on? “That’s a foolish question,” says Anatol Lieven, a professor in the Department of War Studies at King’s College London. “Pakistan is on Pakistan’s side, just as America is on America’s.” Nobody knows that better than the Taliban

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2010 12:16

I have a stupid question. Based on the following quote," In international relations there are no permanent friends and permanent enemies".

Now my question is. Could the US and the Taliban actually work together to $crew TSP. Considering the hatred the Pashtoons have for TSP.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Aug 2010 12:19

^^^^ Only if US helps Northern Afghanistan become a separate state. By removing non-Pashtun Afghans from the equation, then all that's left are Pashtuns and Pakjabis to fight each other for dominance. At that point Pashtuns, whether Taliban or otherwise, will quickly move to support Pashtunistan, pulling the rug out from under Pakistan in the process.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2010 12:22

Isnt this is what the Kala Vasiat Brain wave recomending.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Aug 2010 12:59

http://worldmeets.us/thefrontierpost000054.shtml

Check how they are the victim

Momina
2 Aug 2010, 1:07AM

Cameron based his comment on Wiki leaks linking ISI with terror which are totally unsubstantiated first reports collected by Afghan intelligence which is unreliable to say the least. He knows he has the luxury to take pot shots at Pakistan and still get help from Islamabad in US's name.

I would have appreciated if Cameron made this accusation in Britain or in Pakistan if he wanted to go public on it to pressurize Pakistan. Surely he belittled his once great nation by choosing a third country and that too a country which is the biggest enemy of Pakistan. This was uncalled for and most Pakistanis will consider him as ganging up on Pakistan.

Some analysts are saying that he has made this anti Pakistan statement on Obama's behest which is interesting news. If this is true them Obama is better off for it because the anti American sentiments amongst the Pakistanis will be diluted with the anti Britain sentiments . As a Pakistani I know that the Pakistanis had a soft corner in their hearts for Britain.

There is a saying in Urdu which translated in English says that he cut the tree which provided shade to him, which is what Cameron has effectively done. Britain has pre empted so many terror attacks on its soil with ISI's help.

As for the aid to Pakistan is concerned the world should understand its dynamics. Pakistan's economy has lost 60 billion dollars since the US invasion of Afghanistan. America has given the country 11 billion aid during this time. Pakistan is being strangulated in this way and whipped to do more.

A large majority of Pakistanis believe that the internal terrorism in their country is being stoked by US and co as well as India again to pressurize Pakistan to do more in this war on terror. After all its simple logic that an extremist Muslim group will not attack mosques,Shrines and Islamic universities.

I wonder why Cameron's plain talking did not include the curfew and the killings of stone throwing teenagers in Kashmir by India. The author is very right in pointing out that the core issue is Kashmir. Pakistan's main concern is to avoid having two hostile borders, as it is one hostile neighbour where Cameron made his unfortunate remarks is bad enough.

Of all the people in the world, America has the least right to talk about the radicalization of North west regions of Pakistan. Before the CIA arrived on scene in the eighties to defeat the Soviets, nobody in the North west regions had heard of klashnikov and heroine. Ten years later there were 120000 armed jihadis from twenty seven different countries in this area of Pakistan.

Cameron does not know how much more difficult he has made it for the Pakistan government to continue with its current unwarranted sacrifice as already it is walking on a tight rope between the Pakistani anti West sentiments and its foreign policy.

Its time that the world realises the enormous sacrifices Pakistan has made in the war on terror and stop pushing her to do more. Most Pakistanis do not want Pakistan to participate in a war which they widely regard as a US war.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Aug 2010 13:12

Acharya wrote:

Momina

Cameron based his comment on Wiki leaks linking ISI with terror which are totally unsubstantiated first reports collected by Afghan intelligence which is unreliable to say the least. He knows he has the luxury to take pot shots at Pakistan and still get help from Islamabad in US's name.

uh-huh, perhaps no one has been reading the reports in the UK press for the past ten years about various british military types suggesting repeatedly that Pakistan is the problem...

I would have appreciated if Cameron made this accusation in Britain or in Pakistan if he wanted to go public on it to pressurize Pakistan. Surely he belittled his once great nation by choosing a third country and that too a country which is the biggest enemy of Pakistan. This was uncalled for and most Pakistanis will consider him as ganging up on Pakistan.

see, this is what got the goat. not the truth

There is a saying in Urdu which translated in English says that he cut the tree which provided shade to him, which is what Cameron has effectively done. Britain has pre empted so many terror attacks on its soil with ISI's help.

ah-hah! so its true then? that pakistan constitutes "75% of the terror threats to britian"

After all its simple logic that an extremist Muslim group will not attack mosques,Shrines and Islamic universities.

no muslim could do it, we know that

I wonder why Cameron's plain talking did not include the curfew and the killings of stone throwing teenagers in Kashmir by India.

because it is an internal matter of India's, that too involving law and order

The author is very right in pointing out that the core issue is Kashmir.

ofcourse it is, but what to do?

as it is one hostile neighbour where Cameron made his unfortunate remarks is bad enough.

simple answer, stop poking that border and it will not be hostile!

Before the CIA arrived on scene in the eighties to defeat the Soviets, nobody in the North west regions had heard of klashnikov and heroine.

correct, it was Lee Enfield 0.303 rifles and Sridevi posters sellotaped on the back of goat's heads only until then

Most Pakistanis do not want Pakistan to participate in a war which they widely regard as a US war.

correct, time to embrace buddhism and renounce violence once and for all, just like the good old days