MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

[Arya Sumantra]

That's why the persistence to sell equipment that turns from Hardware to Tupperware(H2T) at the press of a remote.

And can you find a single instance of this happening?

Must be a waste of money putting the remote disabling switches then

Any instance where both sides with YOUR gear went to war ? Any instance when they could stand up to you yourself when you(with tenacious habit of seeing threats everywhere) are unfavourably disposed? Cold war meant that only one of the rivals had your equipment to be bothered by such features. Not anymore. Our other rival who doesn't have your equipment is the largest creditors to your bonds. You might want to look at how israeli overflights over Turkey happened. Fool someone else. Regulatory Reforms plus Kill switch circumventable ToT or don't waste your and our time.

[GeorgeWelch]

Must be a waste of money putting the remote disabling switches then

Obviously the very lack of evidence proves that it exists

Any instance where both sides with YOUR gear went to war ?

Argentina: A-4 Skyhawks, KC-130, S-2 Tracker, SP-2H Neptune, SH-3 Sea King,
Britain: Hercules C.1, Chinook, Sidewinder AIM-9, AGM-45 Shrike, Paveway II LGB

Also plenty of other instances of people with unfriendly intentions using US gear.

Iran: F-14
Afghanistan: a ton of Stingers

You might want to look at how israeli overflights over Turkey happened.

Because neither side wanted to start a shooting war?

Seriously, that's your best evidence, that the Israel was able to do an overflight of Turkey?

Think about this: how was Israel able to overfly Syria and destroy their nuke program?

circumventable ToT

By its very nature ToT isn't circumventable.

[Drishyaman]

George Welch,

Your argument not with standing, we Indians in general are weary about Yanky stuffs. We have already put billions in Uncle’s pocket via FMS. Its time we spread some of our risks and put some billions in German’s or British’s pocket or may be the French.

Discussing about the presence of trap doors or Trojan horses are futile as if it is present, it will be difficult to prove its presence. This thought originates from the fact that Indian in general are not comfortable with Unkil’s stuff and there are historical evidence to support the fact that Unkil was not interested in seeing Indians grow in terms of Technology.

Remember early 90s when Glavakosmos was interesting in passing cryogenic technology to Indians, it was Unkil who blocked it. This kind of Technology embargo just increased after the “Buddha” smiled as then they just got a reason to do that.

[Singha]

I think the days of india being uncortable with american gear are over. we have put two very strategic programs into unkil's hands - Tejas engine and P8I.
so dont think F-18 introduces any greater problems into the matrix than having MC130J, C17, GE414/404 and P8I in service.

while the F-18 probably cannot be classified as a great airframe for a2a work unlike the rafale/EF there is no doubt about following points
- a strong proven engine and a guaranteed EPE/EDE pgm, engine workshop would be commonish with Tejas mk2. a strong thrust engine will make up for some of the airframe issues in a2a. F-18 is always known for slow speed 'knife fight' suitability.
- a reasonably fat and well fed user USN unlike the starving types like RAF or those with little public support for costly toys like Luftwaffe
- worlds best array of A2G weapons & LDPs
- probably worlds best bvraam and future jadraam/amraam-D
- a functioning in-service AESA radar with guaranteed future upgrades based on world leading 3rd-4th gen aesa tech - this outclasses anything the chinese are likely to produce even in 10 yrs
- reduced frontal RCS
- aim9x matches the good wvraams
- very competent EW (US deal to lose by denying us reprogrammability)
- 2 seater (if we want it)
- internal IRST is coming
- rugged airframe (grumann wildcat style) and landing gear suitable for tough naval wet working conditions
- option of buying more later for IAC-II and use common infra on land

as an a/c, sensor and weapons pkg its the least risk option.

as a program (incl tot/help on other projects) its the US's deal to lose.

[Brando]

^^ I think many people have said this already but:

If we get the SH, we should get the GE-414's produced locally as they are common for both the SH and the Tejas (for now) . Also, since the SH is a naval aircraft, Boeing should replace its undercarriage with something lighter that conventional fighter aircraft use to maximize the SH's A2A performance. AESA obviously would also have to be given in full and not a dumbed down version. Without the AESA radar or the engine, what is really the point in buying a mediocre fighter like the SH ? We already have enough brownie points with the US to get most of their complex systems and armaments we want and its not like India is going to jump on the JSF bandwagon anytime soon. In terms of performance maybe the F16 has a better chance than the F18 because it is nimble and formidable all round.
Since the IAF is filled with jocks who dream about massive aerial dogfights, I think we can pretty much assume that they would favor the aircraft that is the most capable in the A2A role no matter what the tests show.

[Arya Sumantra]

Must be a waste of money putting the remote disabling switches then

Obviously the very lack of evidence proves that it exists

Because evidences are created during wars and standoffs. And there aren't many with both sides fielding your gear. That's the partition cold war had created.

Interesting logic BTW which goes like this. Evidence of something happening is a prerequisite to its occurence otherwise it simply should not occur In one shot you have killed advancement and evolution.

People know what is possible with today's technology and who spends the most on it.

Any instance where both sides with YOUR gear went to war ?

Argentina: A-4 Skyhawks, KC-130, S-2 Tracker, SP-2H Neptune, SH-3 Sea King,
Britain: Hercules C.1, Chinook, Sidewinder AIM-9, AGM-45 Shrike, Paveway II LGB

Also plenty of other instances of people with unfriendly intentions using US gear.

Iran: F-14
Afghanistan: a ton of Stingers

Now count the years since Falklands war and how far has the microelectronics, communications and software technology evolved since then.

[SaiK]

We have already got the ToT for Ge414, so what is the problem in getting ToT for AESA as well. I guess it is the sub components and software code we have not heard anything yet. It might need a little paper work there from SD, at a b@lls squeezing agreement in many a terms.

Welcome aboard IAF to the new master of their doctrine. The SD.

[Drishyaman]

We have already got the ToT for Ge414

Full TOT including blisk/SCB ? If that is "true" , then we don't need any fighter flying GE414
We need a fighter which flies on some other engine, so that we get the best of all world

[SaiK]

Even India becomes soopah or gr8 power, it would not deep tot to any nation. There are intellectual property rights and legal aspects and business entities are not fools - la "One can't pay to sleep with other SHQs" on legal terms.

[kmc_chacko]

We have already got the ToT for Ge414, so what is the problem in getting ToT for AESA as well. I guess it is the sub components and software code we have not heard anything yet. It might need a little paper work there from SD, at a b@lls squeezing agreement in many a terms.

Welcome aboard IAF to the new master of their doctrine. The SD.

when did we got that ?

If so they why we are negotiating for that for our Tejas Mk2 ?

[PratikDas]

But what is SD?

[Gurneesh]

We have already got the ToT for Ge414, so what is the problem in getting ToT for AESA as well. I guess it is the sub components and software code we have not heard anything yet. It might need a little paper work there from SD, at a b@lls squeezing agreement in many a terms.

Welcome aboard IAF to the new master of their doctrine. The SD.

when did we got that ?

If so they why we are negotiating for that for our Tejas Mk2 ?

IIRC, ToT was not included in the original RFP for Mk2 Engine. EJ was offering it as a bonus (but with it's associated costs). There is difference between getting manufacturing tech and know how to actually develop it. It may very well happen that a number of 414 parts come (like blades, specially if we go with EPE and ceramic blades) as kits to HAL.

[shiv]

ToT for blisk/F-414? To make blisk, steel Titanium, newt's blood and wings of the bundal beetle have to be blended using special mantras. Nobody will tell us those mantras. We have to figure it out ourselves. In ToT they will send the blisks to us. Mantra's wont be taught.

[Drishyaman]

ToT for blisk/F-414? To make blisk, steel Titanium, newt's blood and wings of the bundal beetle have to be blended using special mantras. Nobody will tell us those mantras. We have to figure it out ourselves. In ToT they will send the blisks to us. Mantra's wont be taught.

Shiv ji, Isn't the "Mantra" actual TOT ? Otherwise, it should be screw-driver technique ?

[kit]

mantras mean technical know how (eg., metallurgy) , ideas and capability to 'productify' from a design or copy (hint!) .Keep in mind there are alternative mantras that might work.Chinese alternative medicine is an example. Remember the old sages used to part with mantras only to the very deserving and sometimes even keep back something (mahabharat epic is a good example , if i remember right only arjuna could take back the astra that was send , no one else including drona could replicate that feat) .. anyway off topic !

coming to the modern world the Hawk manufacturing 'tot' is a good example of how western 'tot'ing will work out., hence the interest in joint development and manufacture.

[nachiket]

ToT for blisk/F-414? To make blisk, steel Titanium, newt's blood and wings of the bundal beetle have to be blended using special mantras. Nobody will tell us those mantras. We have to figure it out ourselves. In ToT they will send the blisks to us. Mantra's wont be taught.

Shiv ji, Isn't the "Mantra" actual TOT ? Otherwise, it should be screw-driver technique ?

That is what the much touted ToT really is. Otherwise we would have obtained SCB technology and used it in the Kaveri since we already "manufacture" the AL-31FP for the MKIs. Nobody is going to give us access to their Intellectual property which they spent billions of dollars researching.

The GE-414 will be manufactured in India for the LCA. That does not mean we'll be able to produce them if some American congressmen get a bug up their collective a$$ and decide that they really shouldn't be selling weapons to an enemy of their "frontline ally in the War on (non-pakistani) Terror". Like Shiv saar said. They send the blisks to us. We assemble the engine. If they don't send the blisks, we are screwed. As long as it's only engines we are somewhat safe as once an aircraft is completely built, it does not need to be re-engined too often. With the SH, each and every part will be American. Something to think about. Other than this there is nothing much wrong with the SH. It has better strike and EW capabilities than any other MMRCA contender, save the Rafale perhaps.

[Rahul M]

ToT for blisk/F-414? To make blisk, steel Titanium, newt's blood and wings of the bundal beetle have to be blended using special mantras. Nobody will tell us those mantras. We have to figure it out ourselves. In ToT they will send the blisks to us. Mantra's wont be taught.

Shiv ji, Isn't the "Mantra" actual TOT ? Otherwise, it should be screw-driver technique ?

right on money. in most cases ToT==screw driver tech.

as an aside, you can use what is being offered to India in terms of critical stuff to benchmark the progress of domestic projects. foreign alternatives would be offered when the desi project is on a verge of breakthrough.

[NRao]

Screw driver and Mantra. Who wants the Mantra too? I would want the data that got to the Mantra. THAT Mantra is only good enough for that blisk blade. What next? Without data no next Mantra.

I think GoI has to invest in-house to build that data.

[Cain Marko]

Make no mistake, the solah and atharah will come with the most seasoned topend stuff. Now how much access India gets to that stuff remains to be seen. Another concern of course, is the cost. They might come relatively inexpensive flyaway, but they cost a pretty penny when the associated support packages are announced - hardly any different from uber euro birds. The Solah cost around $ 80 million per unit for the UAE (that was a decade ago), and the 18 costs for the Aussies as well as Brazil were skyhigh! Anyways, amongst the two, the Shornet seems to have the most clear roadmap, and the EPE engines will surely help, making it the bird with the highest TWR in the race!

As far as modifying the a/c for land based roles is concerned, I don't think this will happen. IIRC, they tried that earlier but caused major vibration issues, so the bulk stays. Answer to this issue is obviously via the EPE 12.5 ton engines. If you can't drop weight, just increase power, wot?

LM missed the boat when it comes to the Solah though - at the v.least they should've offered a lighter (Blk-50) viper with all the gizmos present on the 60, and the GE F110-132 engines - 14.5 tons. Again this would have provided the sort of thrust reqd. to compensate for the bulging waistline on the Viper. As it stands, the 10 ton viper being offered has too many trade offs - poor wingloading, mediocre TWR, poor fuel fraction. To compensate for the fuel, they have CFTs, which in turn means an even worse TWR and loading! By slicing off 1 ton (as in the blk 50), and hooking up the F110 engine, they could have some what alleviated the situation imho.

CM.

[SaiK]

ToT would be yantra assembly, tantra to assembly sections onlee (screw driver)may be toted as well. Deep tantra, and mantras will never be given.

All these tantras only to make sure we are not "deeply choked", since we could purchase ahead parts to assemble during war times. For example, Sweden followed by USA would the first country to choke us if we do a deep strike in pakistan.

[Cain Marko]

Strategically, safest bet is to go Euro - whether it is topend maal - Rafale or Tiffy OR lowend - GripenNG. Superfulcrum might have been a good bet too - but there seems to be no chance here.

CM.

[NRao]

Never know. You know who has promised to bail out some of the EU countries. That has to weigh in the minds at some point in time.

[shukla]

Induction of new planes will reduce air crashes: Antony
Sify News

Noting that IAF was in the process of speedy modernisation, the defence minister said that in the next two or three years, the IAF would induct some of the most modern equipment, fighter jets, transport aircraft and helicopters into its fleet apart from phasing out the old aircraft in its inventory.

Sharing Antony's sentiments, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said the faster the new aircraft are inducted, the IAF would be able to phase out the ageing ones.

'The faster the new aircraft are inducted, the faster we can phase out the old aircraft. We have already phased out oldest type of MiG-21s. Only one squadron is left now. They should also be going out by next year. The faster the ingress, the faster we can phase out the older aircraft,' he said.

The IAF at present has 33 squadrons in its fleet with aircraft ranging from Russian-origin Su-30s, French Mirage-2000, Anglo-French Jaguars, Russian MiG-29s and several ageing MiG variants such as MiG-21s and MiG-27s in the about 600-aircraft inventory.

The IAF plans to induct 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) by 2015 for which the tender process is in its last stage and could be awarded to one of the six contenders anytime this year.

[kit]

Never know. You know who has promised to bail out some of the EU countries. That has to weigh in the minds at some point in time.

Correct , either way you look at it, the geopolitical 'strategic' consideration in the MRCA decision no longer holds that much weightage as it was maybe a year back.

[Philip]

The fading star on the horizon is the US.Its global influence is diminishing.Events in Egypt ,where its bosom pal Mubarak is being dumped,failure to broker a Middle-East peace,stuck in the quagmire's of Afghanistan and Iraq,and in Asia losing influence rapidly to the Chinese,should serve as a warning to excessively pro-US Indians in the establishment.The stark stats that the worst performing stock market in the world was India's ,where FIs simply kept on taking their money out of the country,indicate that we had better hedge our bets instead of putting them on one unreliable strategic partner.

[Viv S]

Yeah... and 10 years ago, the super radar wasn't available to India. 10 years from now, the next super piece of equipment will still remain unavailable. Seeing as access to the cutting edge of technology isn't available, its hardly a selling point.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but the US is making cutting edge available now. They sold the P-8 and are willing to sell the F-35

The P-8 sale is an exception rather than the rule. As for the F-35, it was illuminating to observe the British (despite being a tier-I partner and possessing a special relationship certificate) jump through hoops to retain 'operationally sovereignty' over their F-35s to the point where the US President had to intervene. I'll believe that the best of US technology is available when a full fledged Growler is on offer to India.

Nonsense, the angular limits of AESA were well known and understood.

And after testing was not acceptable to the RAF, which is why a swashplate Captor-E is on offer to India.

You just keeping digging your hole deeper. Sometimes you have to learn to quit while you are behind.

Didn't realize we're were competing. What may I ask is the prize?

I never said it would 'never have been developed', I said it would still be in limbo, as in there wouldn't be an actual project running at the moment.

And you've produced no evidence to support that. The AMSAR, CECAR and CAESAR weren't sanctioned for a possible Indian order in the future.

They're doing the right thing 10 years late, but only because it is required for the export market.

Exactly, glad you understand now.

Once you've bought it, they already have your money. After that point, what incentive do they have to do anything else you care about?

That's not how the industry functions. Upgrades WILL continue to to be developed because there is market for upgrades that includes 400+ European aircraft, 72 Saudi aircraft and presumably 126-200 Indian aircraft. Its not a favour being dished out to the faithful.

Question: How much do you think ought to be spent on the Eurofighter's future upgrades?

Whatever it takes to keep it on the cutting edge.

How much do you think will be spent on the Super Hornet's development over the next ten years? A tentative figure will suffice.

Whatever it takes to keep it on the cutting edge.

The question wasn't rhetorical. I was looking for a specific figure. Is the sum far too high for a European consortium that includes India to pay? Is it closer to $100 million or $1 billion or higher?

Other than GaN modules what new tech do you see emerging in the next ten years?

Are you saying there won't be any advances besides GaN? That fighter technology will stagnate?

Fighter aircraft technology will carry on, but aircraft cannot be upgraded endlessly, or the India wouldn't have stopped production of MiG-21s and the USAF would still be flying Sabres and Phantoms. Other than a GaN radar and possibly a weapons pod, the IAF's upgrades will be incremental improvements in existing systems.

One of the biggest advantages of an AESA is its extreme resistance to jamming. Your statement assumes that the adversary isn't equipped with an AESA of his own.

One of the biggest advantages of an AESA is it's ability to jam other radars with an extreme resistance to jamming.

Other mechanically scanned or phased array radars not frequency hopping AESA radars.

Unfortunately for EF, its current AESA roadmap has zero EW capability.

And you know this how?

Software solutions can only increase the effective range upto a degree.

Range is just a small part of what I'm talking about. Think other features like EW capability (which the EF isn't even going to attempt).

Range is scarcely a small part of the 'see-first-shoot-first' credo.

100% false. With the proliferation of advanced SAMs, fighters with obsolete systems will be hard pressed to hit designated targets even if they aren't going up against other fighters.

The result of an air war against any peripheral adversary (Libya, Syria, Iran, Venezuela) fielding 'advanced SAMs', even with late 90s equipment remains unchanged. The only countries that it would take cutting edge systems to dominate are Russia and China. And the entire NATO will be involved in something of that scale.

If that was the case, they wouldn't have delayed production to fix them.

Not necessarily. Unless you know the details of the agreement signed with the Australian Govt.

Ongoing work is still being conducted on the aircraft's ESM systems and its integration with the MESA radar. The final four aircraft all should have their ESM systems fitted and integrated at delivery, while the first two aircraft will have their systems activated and configured in 2011.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2010/0 ... nded-over/

And engine upgrades are being funded despite WVR combat being a thing of the past?

I never said WVR combat is a thing of the past, and the EPE program is part of the larger EDE program which is focused on reducing fuel burn, maintenance and other life cycle costs.

If WVR combat is still a possibility not precluded by advanced avionics (leading to a 10% increase in F414 thrust), then I would assume the performance of the aircraft still remains a very important factor in air combat. Which would explain why the F-22 and PAK-FA despite their stealth characteristics, feature outstanding aerodynamic performance, and help make the case for the Eurofighter.

[Philip]

Viv,you are quite right.A2A combat is still a vital key factor in performance because even the most advanced air forces do not have limitless BVR missiles,which in any case are also limited in number that an aircraft can carry.Once an aircraft's BVR missiles have been exhausted,what is left to defend itself? SRAAMs and guns which require "top gun" capabilities of the pilot! If one is thus able to dodge/defeat an enemy's incoming BVR missile through countermeasures,etc.,then the battle enters the dogfighting regime.It is why most aircraft shot down in all wars have been in close combat situs and not in BVR situations.It is also because of this that many air forces especially the Israelis place such importance on close combat capabilities and retain their cannon for the same.

The choice of aircraft for the MMRCA role should possess outstanding air-to-air combat capabilities primarily and not be an "also-ran" in this respect.The strike role should come second,which in any case in attacking high-value and heavily defended targets,a variety of stand-off missiles will be used,plus attacking aircraft will/should be accompanied by EW aircraft,aircraft with EW pods,etc.Given the large-scale induction of B'Mos for the IA,with its low CEP,a pin-point missile solution,several targets which earlier would have to be taken out by aircraft will now be better attacked with tactical missiles.The trend in strike missions is for the greater usage of PGMs,especially stand-off munitions reducing the danger of being shot down by MANPADS and anti-aircraft artillery.

[nits]

If we talk with perspective to Production Readiness \ Production Line and Rate of Production/Year, Which Aircraft from all MRCA Contenderswill be able to deliver whole MRCA Order in less time considering there Dosmetic and Other Internation Requirements and related Order Fullfillment...

[nachiket]

If we talk with perspective to Production Readiness \ Production Line and Rate of Production/Year, Which Aircraft from all MRCA Contenderswill be able to deliver whole MRCA Order in less time considering there Dosmetic and Other Internation Requirements and related Order Fullfillment...

All aircraft save the first 18 are to be manufactured in India from SKDs, CKDs and eventually from scratch (sort of). So the rate of production depends on us for the most part. Regardless of which aircraft is chosen, deliveries of the first 18 will begin 3 years from date of sigining the contract. So the earliest that we'll see an MMRCA in the IAF would be 2015-16.

[kit]

The Flight Global World Airforces 2010 directory .. download link

http://rapidshare.com/files/446684947/W ... es2010.pdf

[GeorgeWelch]

The P-8 sale is an exception rather than the rule.

It looks a lot more like the beginning of a trend to me.

Nonsense, the angular limits of AESA were well known and understood.

And after testing was not acceptable to the RAF, which is why a swashplate Captor-E is on offer to India.

So your position is still that it took them 10 years to figure out how to mount an AESA array on a swashplate?

I'm not sure making them look incompetent is helping your cause.

I never said it would 'never have been developed', I said it would still be in limbo, as in there wouldn't be an actual project running at the moment.

And you've produced no evidence to support that.

I have produced direct evidence of exactly that. Your continued denial reflects poorly on your ability to accept reality.

Once you've bought it, they already have your money. After that point, what incentive do they have to do anything else you care about?

That's not how the industry functions. Upgrades WILL continue to to be developed because there is market for upgrades that includes 400+ European aircraft, 72 Saudi aircraft and presumably 126-200 Indian aircraft. Its not a favour being dished out to the faithful.

So then why hadn't they funded the upgrade until now?

No matter how much you try to ignore it or pretend it didn't happen, that is the 'inconvenient truth' that destroys your argument's credibility.

The question wasn't rhetorical. I was looking for a specific figure. Is the sum far too high for a European consortium that includes India to pay?

It's far too high for Europe to be willing to spend it.

India might be willing, but that just leaves us where I originally said India will have to fund all upgrades itself.

Are you saying there won't be any advances besides GaN? That fighter technology will stagnate?

Fighter aircraft technology will carry on . . . Other than a GaN radar and possibly a weapons pod, the IAF's upgrades will be incremental improvements in existing systems.

Those are incremental improvements too, but even incremental improvements take money, money you're not going to get out of Europe.

One of the biggest advantages of an AESA is it's ability to jam other radars with an extreme resistance to jamming.

Other mechanically scanned or phased array radars not frequency hopping AESA radars.

So your position is that it's impossible for an AESA to jam another AESA

Well certainly it will be impossible for the EF's radar to do it since it will have zero EW capability

Unfortunately for EF, its current AESA roadmap has zero EW capability.

And you know this how?

Because that's what Euroradar chairman Andrew Cowdery said.

If WVR combat is still a possibility not precluded by advanced avionics (leading to a 10% increase in F414 thrust), then I would assume the performance of the aircraft still remains a very important factor in air combat.

It is A factor, certainly not THE factor or even a critical factor.

The relative performance difference of the aircraft on offer is going to make a difference say 10% of the time. 90% of the time it will be the avionics. If you can improve your performance during the 10%, great.

But I'll tell you what, you focus on the 10% and I'll focus on the 90% and we'll see who comes out ahead


edit: Here's a bonus article just for you

Is Europe Headed For Security Irrelevance?

The growing imbalance between the European and U.S. contribution to NATO is once again in the cross hairs.

. . .

- European members have cut $45 billion from defense spending in the last two years.
- The U.S. defense budget represents about 75% of defense spending in NATO.
- The U.K. and France spend about 12% of what the U.S. spends on R&D.

And there you have why Europe will never be able to remain at the cutting edge, they can't afford it.

[SaiK]

The signal to noise ratio is tending towards zero when one has to read so many in-lines and quoted discussions in any thread. For example, even if Philip's posts reasonably opposing views, is much more readable than this George vs. Viv ones. He scores, while the other heated signals gets lost in the presentation noise. A humble request onlee.

[kit]

This argument is interesting.

Do you think you have to spend an equivalent or more amount of money on R&D to get a better or similar product. Money is sometimes not everything ( but most often yes !) .Dedication,brains,talent all these are factors as well as sustained support in R&D and incremental improvement.

If it is in Indian interest to support Europe then it should be, if India doesn't, China will .


We can most probably witness the lifting of the arms embargo against China by the Europeans within a few years of the Indian MRCA deal going to America.( ONLY A SUPPOSITION ! lets hope it is not true)

[GeorgeWelch]

We can most probably witness the lifting of the arms embargo against China by the Europeans within a few years of the Indian MRCA deal going to America.

It will happen in a few years regardless of the MRCA deal.

France in particular has been falling all over itself to get into the Chinese arms market.

[NRao]

Too late for this discussion on EU-China. China has already stepped in. Nothing India or anyone else can do now.

There is an article on BBC web site - about Chinese small businessmen going to Africa. One such Chinese very emphatically states - China is a powerful country now.

IF India wants to do something (which I think she has started to do) then India must act and not react. There cannot be fear of sanctions from the US Congress and EU behavior.

[Singha]

few yrs back there was a report china had offered france a deal for 200 rafales if france could work and get the EU embargo lifted.

even though 200 rafales may not make military sense for china they would do it to pay off france and prove a point as to rich rewards to be made - germany, italy and spain would soon be beating a path to beijings door leaving perhaps UK as only holdout.

german and french cos have benefitted a lot from chinese civilian side projects already I think - siemens, volkswagen...

[Henrik]

few yrs back there was a report china had offered france a deal for 200 rafales if france could work and get the EU embargo lifted.

even though 200 rafales may not make military sense for china they would do it to pay off france and prove a point as to rich rewards to be made - germany, italy and spain would soon be beating a path to beijings door leaving perhaps UK as only holdout.

german and french cos have benefitted a lot from chinese civilian side projects already I think - siemens, volkswagen...

Spain is also, like France, pushing for an end to the weapons embargo on China.

[svinayak]

few yrs back there was a report china had offered france a deal for 200 rafales if france could work and get the EU embargo lifted.

even though 200 rafales may not make military sense for china they would do it to pay off france and prove a point as to rich rewards to be made - germany, italy and spain would soon be beating a path to beijings door leaving perhaps UK as only holdout.

german and french cos have benefitted a lot from chinese civilian side projects already I think - siemens, volkswagen...

What the western companies and govt are saying is that if India does not open the market to them then they will open it for PRC and make money. India has to call it bluff

[Thomas Kolarek]

few yrs back there was a report china had offered france a deal for 200 rafales if france could work and get the EU embargo lifted.

even though 200 rafales may not make military sense for china they would do it to pay off france and prove a point as to rich rewards to be made - germany, italy and spain w

Don't worry its for US interests in Taiwan, EU placed arms embargo on China, they won't lift that unless US gives the nod. of course Japan won't let that happen too.

[srai]

Induction of new planes will reduce air crashes: Antony
Sify News

Noting that IAF was in the process of speedy modernisation, the defence minister said that in the next two or three years, the IAF would induct some of the most modern equipment, fighter jets, transport aircraft and helicopters into its fleet apart from phasing out the old aircraft in its inventory.

Sharing Antony's sentiments, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said the faster the new aircraft are inducted, the IAF would be able to phase out the ageing ones.

'The faster the new aircraft are inducted, the faster we can phase out the old aircraft. We have already phased out oldest type of MiG-21s. Only one squadron is left now. They should also be going out by next year. The faster the ingress, the faster we can phase out the older aircraft,' he said.

The IAF at present has 33 squadrons in its fleet with aircraft ranging from Russian-origin Su-30s, French Mirage-2000, Anglo-French Jaguars, Russian MiG-29s and several ageing MiG variants such as MiG-21s and MiG-27s in the about 600-aircraft inventory.

The IAF plans to induct 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) by 2015 for which the tender process is in its last stage and could be awarded to one of the six contenders anytime this year.

Jagan,

The statement made by Antony about the MiG-21 seems at odds with what is listed in the IAF's Aircraft Fleet Strength page:

• MiG-21Bis -> 56 aircrafts (2 squadrons 15, 26)
• MiG-21 M/MF -> 90 aircrafts (5 squadrons 17, 35, 37, 101, 108)

That's 7 "old" MiG-21 squadrons listed versus Antony's comment of only having 1 left (which will supposedly be retired next year).