Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Mar 2010 02:56

DRDO to conduct fourth test of interceptor missile

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 02 Mar 2010 12:27

India prefers Israeli 'spike' over "Javelin' Anti-tank missile??

The move also comes at a time when an intense debate is building up over the purchase of a new generation of ATGMs. And, for the first time probably, Israelis and Americans are pitted against each other in an army offer to buy weapons.

According to sources, while the army has formally shown interest in the US-made Javelin missiles, a delegation that visited Israel in November had given its thumbs up to much cheaper Israeli Spike missiles.

Army sources said trials of Spike missiles in Pokhran had failed in the past. But it was a “trouble with a particular lot”. Army sources said a newer version of Spike was successfully test-fired when its delegation visited Israel.

US firms Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, who manufacture Javelin, have been trying hard to sale the missile to the army. The missile’s fire power was demonstrated during a recent exercise.

Wonder if they would be tested in the blistering heat of Pokhran again? Wonder if had anything to do with the heat at all??

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_12 ... my_1351833

This is going to be reallllly interesting.. Israel or US? Cost or Quality?

Though the Spike is a lot cheaper the Javelin's seen a lot of action and has had more luck with sales..

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Mar 2010 12:29

And they are confident of winning against US?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 02 Mar 2010 13:10

ISRAELI SPIKE LAUNCH

new advanced version

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Mar 2010 01:23

12,000 Missiles give trouble to Army

12,000 old missiles a bother for army

Josy Joseph / DNAWednesday,

New Delhi: Dated weapons are a headache. And the army is beginning to realise it as it looks for ways to dispose off — hold your breath — 12,000 missiles.

The anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), which are now over 20 years old, were originally manufactured by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and were to serve for a decade. The missiles were on a life extension.

“We have decided to dispose them off, but need to figure out how,” said a senior officer at the army headquarters. He said the 12,000 missiles are presently lying in the army’s ammunition depots across the country.

The missiles — Russian Konkurs produced in India under a licence — could still be used during exercises, he said. But that would mean taking the risk of using outdated ammunition. “Who would want to take that risk?” he asked.

The move also comes at a time when an intense debate is building up over the purchase of a new generation of ATGMs. And, for the first time probably, Israelis and Americans are pitted against each other in an army offer to buy weapons.

According to sources, while the army has formally shown interest in the US-made Javelin missiles, a delegation that visited Israel in November had given its thumbs up to much cheaper Israeli Spike missiles.

Army sources said trials of Spike missiles in Pokhran had failed in the past. But it was a “trouble with a particular lot”. Army sources said a newer version of Spike was successfully test-fired when its delegation visited Israel.

US firms Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, who manufacture Javelin, have been trying hard to sale the missile to the army. The missile’s fire power was demonstrated during a recent exercise.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2010 01:43

^^^ Shouldnt they have a regular ordnance disposal facility on stream by now? Looks like they need to be told or directed to do even normal things! If the stuff is past due date one doesn't hang to it as it grows unsafe with time.

Anyway why mix up apples and oranges. Disposal of old material is a normal thing. Acquiring new weapons is also a normal thing. Is there a scam/lafada somewhere that is being conveyed in the story?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Mar 2010 02:00

ramana wrote:^^^ Shouldnt they have a regular ordnance disposal facility on stream by now? Looks like they need to be told or directed to do even normal things! If the stuff is past due date one doesn't hang to it as it grows unsafe with time.

Anyway why mix up apples and oranges. Disposal of old material is a normal thing. Acquiring new weapons is also a normal thing. Is there a scam/lafada somewhere that is being conveyed in the story?

Apart from buying more than what was needed, I don't think there is any lafda in the story! But it is strange that they don't know How to dispose of weapons...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Mar 2010 02:16

Craig Alpert wrote:
ramana wrote:^^^ Shouldnt they have a regular ordnance disposal facility on stream by now? Looks like they need to be told or directed to do even normal things! If the stuff is past due date one doesn't hang to it as it grows unsafe with time.

Anyway why mix up apples and oranges. Disposal of old material is a normal thing. Acquiring new weapons is also a normal thing. Is there a scam/lafada somewhere that is being conveyed in the story?
Apart from buying more than what was needed, I don't think there is any lafda in the story! But it is strange that they don't know How to dispose of weapons...

Is that an inference or statement? Thanx.

Also, afaik, the older ammunition is gradually rolled over by using it for training purposes. It is not that these ATGMs suddenly became 20-years old and are too old to handle in training excercises. With the numbers we're talking which could have been available for practice, the ATGM gunners in Mech. Inf could be real marksmen by now.

But I think the catch could be this - This replacement is likely to be happening because of recent news of IA placing orders for 15,000 newer versions of Konkurs with tandem warhead. These rounds were held and not used for training as the final order/production run for the Konkurs( deployment+training) would have run and IA needed to maintain a base number in inventory to meet any threat. It is only now when new purchase/production has been authorized that older rounds are being discarded. These have then run their life course and are deemed unfit for training use.

But it begs a question, if the rounds are too risky for training, then how come they could have been used in combat?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Mar 2010 02:23

Statement only. Can't draw any conclusions by reading 1 article, without not knowing the IA's side of the story.

Maybe they outta conduct more "live firing drills," but to suggest to use them during training AFTER expired shelf life, is definately a no go. Good to see that they practice safety as well.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 05 Mar 2010 08:40

Sabotage at BDL

a Telugu daily reports that a War Equipment(may be a missile they didnt specify) was sabotaged by 3 workers,as the BDL unit has a Big order they are working on holidays also,in the process a equipment was manufactured and was placed in Assembly unit,3 workers who saw it sabotaged it by cutting some wires and stole some chips.

Enquiry is going on and Zeroed in on a worker and action is likely against him.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Mar 2010 09:48

But it begs a question, if the rounds are too risky for training, then how come they could have been used in combat?

in war, all rules are broken on a as-needed basis.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Mar 2010 10:27

rohitvats... talking to 2 ( two) gunner of ICV's recently( 5 Mech and 9 Mech) , which also hosts Konkurs it looks indeed the mech gunners are marksmen with Konkurs.. both the gunners were very confident of their ability with the ICV gun and Konkurs... one of them smiled and said 'saar agar dushman deekh gaya to samjho konkurs se mara gaya " ... they are using a Konkurs simulator before garduating on the real thing. he said they are very much operational at night as well.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Mar 2010 10:32

Narayana-> if the Telugu daily report is true, should those workers be tried for Treason? or are too soft a country to do that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2010 10:34

Getting rid of 12000 missiles might possibly mean selling them to someone - not necessarily that they are unusable and needing dismantling.

Sell them?
Give them as "aid" to someone?
ask for RFP for disposal - forms in triplicate?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Mar 2010 10:36

Craig Alpert wrote:The missiles — Russian Konkurs produced in India under a licence — could still be used during exercises, he said. But that would mean taking the risk of using outdated ammunition. “Who would want to take that risk?” he asked.

They were sleeping till the last moment. IMO CAG should inquire this too.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Mar 2010 10:59

chackojoseph wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:The missiles — Russian Konkurs produced in India under a licence — could still be used during exercises, he said. But that would mean taking the risk of using outdated ammunition. “Who would want to take that risk?” he asked.
They were sleeping till the last moment. IMO CAG should inquire this too.

Can you clarify the statement, please?

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 05 Mar 2010 11:00

Aditya_V wrote:Narayana-> if the Telugu daily report is true, should those workers be tried for Treason? or are too soft a country to do that.

Yes Aditya agree with you,it happened on Feb 22 and investigation was done, the daily only says that the worker will be suspended.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Mar 2010 11:06

rohitvats wrote:They were sleeping till the last moment. IMO CAG should inquire this too.

Can you clarify the statement, please?[/quote]

They could have progressively used it for training. All 12k of them are not in a single lot. They are in batches. some are older than the others. So, they waited till the problem has blown up. So, if they sat on it, it means

1) storage cost
2) disposal cost
3) additional purchase cost.

1) and 2) could have been minimized. It is a CAG thing as long as expenditures are concerned.

niran · Post by **niran** » 05 Mar 2010 11:24

no, one cannot use up whole of 12000 mijjiles to train.
it is stored in such large numbers, coz, if war break out today,
they will be needed pronto. imagine this
-Sargent, quick, get the "K" team to the ridge ahead.
-saar, but we have used them in training,

there is this mentality in Armed forces
"A" sees a piece of yellow dungish thing at the Boss office door,
he has 2 choices either report it or ignore it
if he report it, most probably he will have to clean it.
if he ignore it, the next person will have to tackle it.
mostly it will be the "ignore it" choice
untill it hits the fan.
this was most likely the happenstance IMO.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Mar 2010 12:06

ajay pratap,

You are right. Hence I said call for CAG inquiry if 12k missile have popped up for expiry.

nash · Post by **nash** » 07 Mar 2010 17:23

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/op-ed/%E ... %80%99-866

In this interview,saraswat is talking about infra-red seeker for ASTRA missile...

In new missiles, the Astra air-to-air beyond visual range missile has undergone four to five ground launch trials. We are now qualifying its infra-red seeker.

I thought ASTRA have active-radar seeker only .... where this infra-red seeker came from ....

...

Are they planning dual seeker for ASTRA..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Mar 2010 22:20

Or two versions of the missile,

Or a IR derivative which is still called the 'astra'

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 07 Mar 2010 22:23

^^^ Perhaps that explains why the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal with the Frenchies is so

expensive?

CM

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Mar 2010 22:27

Cain Marko wrote:^^^ Perhaps that explains why the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal with the Frenchies is so expensive?

CM

Plain english please.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 07 Mar 2010 23:44

Craig Alpert wrote:12,000 Missiles give trouble to Army
12,000 old missiles a bother for army

Josy Joseph / DNAWednesday,

New Delhi: Dated weapons are a headache. And the army is beginning to realise it as it looks for ways to dispose off — hold your breath — 12,000 missiles.

The anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), which are now over 20 years old, were originally manufactured by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and were to serve for a decade. The missiles were on a life extension.

“We have decided to dispose them off, but need to figure out how,” said a senior officer at the army headquarters. He said the 12,000 missiles are presently lying in the army’s ammunition depots across the country.

The missiles — Russian Konkurs produced in India under a licence — could still be used during exercises, he said. But that would mean taking the risk of using outdated ammunition. “Who would want to take that risk?” he asked.

The move also comes at a time when an intense debate is building up over the purchase of a new generation of ATGMs. And, for the first time probably, Israelis and Americans are pitted against each other in an army offer to buy weapons.

According to sources, while the army has formally shown interest in the US-made Javelin missiles, a delegation that visited Israel in November had given its thumbs up to much cheaper Israeli Spike missiles.

Army sources said trials of Spike missiles in Pokhran had failed in the past. But it was a “trouble with a particular lot”. Army sources said a newer version of Spike was successfully test-fired when its delegation visited Israel.

US firms Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, who manufacture Javelin, have been trying hard to sale the missile to the army. The missile’s fire power was demonstrated during a recent exercise.

Can we not use them for practise, preferably across our borders ?

K

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 07 Mar 2010 23:51

Next is a canisterised version of the 2,000-plus km range Agni 2.

So what we plan to do is to set up a facility to detect Trojans — viruses, hidden locks, killer switches — in the chips that we buy from outside before clearing them for usage in sensitive equipment.

Point to be noted

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Mar 2010 00:08

So Avadi has no quality control and now we find the same with BDL. What next?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Mar 2010 01:46

Instead of a cannisterized version of the pencil thin 1m dia Agni-2 I would prefer a stubbier 2m dia version of the missle that's cannisterized. It would be much more road mobile than the lambu agni-2, whose TEL driver surely has his job cut out for him.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Mar 2010 02:03

Vivek K wrote:So Avadi has no quality control and now we find the same with BDL. What next?

BDL's QC problems are quite old. they had serious problems with ATGMs previously.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Mar 2010 02:26

[quote="Kersi Can we not use them for practise, preferably across our borders ?

K

[/quote]

Under equipped Afghan Army ? Add monetary reward for any HV animate or inanimate target neutralized within Pacquiland.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 08 Mar 2010 05:31

Army opts for Nag missile as it enters final trials

In Rajasthan, this May, the indigenously developed Nag (Cobra) missile will undergo a final round of trials before entering service in the Indian Army’s arsenal. Developed by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL) in Hyderabad, the army is delighted with how the Nag has performed in a series of earlier trials. A senior army officer calls it “the world’s deadliest anti-tank guided missile (ATGM)”.

So confident is the army about the Nag that, even before trails are completed, it has budgeted Rs 335 crores for buying 443 Nag missiles, which will be manufactured at the public sector Bharat Dynamics Limited. The missiles will equip Reconnaissance and Support Battalions, mechanised units that locate and destroy enemy tanks.

While the infrared seekers of the Javelin and the Spike can be jammed, the Nag’s optical guidance system makes it virtually jam-proof. The indigenous development of an imaging seeker, a highly complex and closely guarded technology, is the Nag’s greatest triumph.

Ankit

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2010 05:40

Awesome and heart warming.. I guess, the all weather mmw seeker or the next gen nags with longer versions would be looked into, especially the helina versions.

Wouldn't that be possible to have both mmw (once done), be sensor fused with optics and IR? Rather a mmw optional version, an integrated Nag is going to be even deadlier.

One LCH carrying dozen Helinas, is enough to kill that many khalids.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 08 Mar 2010 05:51

Is this an awesome news?

like when Amry is buying 1000`s of ATGMs from phirangi vendors,it is onleeee buying 100`s from kafirs

niran · Post by **niran** » 08 Mar 2010 07:30

jaladipc wrote:Is this an awesome news? like when Amry is buying 1000`s of ATGMs from phirangi vendors,it is onleeee buying 100`s from kafirs

fear not, that figure is lost in translation, it denotes the number of system, not the number of rounds, then training routine will be developed and imparted, before further orders.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 08 Mar 2010 09:25

The indigenous development of an imaging seeker, a highly complex and closely guarded technology, is the Nag’s greatest triumph.

there were concerns about nag price as the seeker was a imported one,did we develop a indigenous seeker for nag? if so its really great news

.finally Most of IGDMP missiles are getting inducted,now IA should induct these in great numbers. and also Helina is not tested even once IMHO,hope to see Helina trials after Nag's induction.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Mar 2010 10:22

jaladipc wrote:Is this an awesome news? like when Amry is buying 1000`s of ATGMs from phirangi vendors,it is onleeee buying 100`s from kafirs

I would not worry on this ground. The reason is simple; NAG is in a different category as compared with Konkurs and Milan-2T. Milan-2T is to be used for equipping the Infantry Regiments; Javelins will also enter in similar role. Konkurs are for use with the BMP-I/II. Both kind of missiles are therefore, required in large quantities. In comparison, NAG is to be used along with NAMICA platform. Such a dedicated platform will be part of specialized unit(s). The article mentions thar NAG will be inducted with Recce & Surveillence Battalions (R&S), which are part of Mechanized Infantry Regiment. There are only few of these as of now. And hence, the low number. Infact, this abdul had opined couple of moons ago that units like R&S Battalions are the most likely candidates for induction of NAMICA. Another set of candidates can be the Recce Regiments of Armored Divisions, which will use a mix of Light and Heavy Tanks and platforms like NAMICA in their Recce Role. In case IA raises/converts dedicated ATGM units (which it used to have like 19 and 16 Guards, I do not know the present situation), this number will go up.

Quick Question: Are we sure that 443 means so many units of NAMICA? That is a very high number.....I think it is 443missiles and what has not been mentioned is the number of NAMICA Platforms.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Mar 2010 10:27

the number associated with 443 missiles previously was 13 NAMICA vehicles IIRC.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2010 10:33

rohit, Ajay Shuklaji says its 443 Nag missiles.

BTW, I wonder if HELINA will be our onw breaper! look at its capability he describes:

In the pipeline is an even more sophisticated method —- “lock-on after launch” or LOAL —- for the helicopter-mounted Nag, or HELINA, which can target a tank 7 kilometres away. Since the target will seldom be visible at such a distance, the missile operator launches the HELINA in the general direction of the target. As it flies towards the target, the Nag’s seeker downlinks to the missile operator images of the area ahead; after travelling 3-4 kilometres, i.e. after about 12-16 seconds, the operator will be able to identify enemy tanks. He will lock the seeker onto the tank he wishes to destroy, and the command will be uplinked to the missile in mid-flight. After that, the missile homes in onto the target and destroys it.

The Nag provides its operator with another important tactical advantage. The plume of burning propellant from the tail of most missiles gives away its flight path and allows the target to get behind cover. The Nag, in contrast, is visible only during the first one second of flight, when the missile’s booster imparts 90% of the momentum; after that, a sustainer maintains the missile’s speed, burning a smokeless propellant that is practically invisible.

Real bolt from the sky if it can be mated to a UAV!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Mar 2010 11:04

ramana, Rahul, thank you for the confirmation on the missile and number of platforms. I had thought as much. What I'm looking forward to is dedicated ATGM Units in IA. May be they can be added to Mechanized Infantry Regiments as well...it will give them excellent stand-off ATGM capability. The logistic burden should be minimal considering that NAMICA uses BMP platform.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 08 Mar 2010 12:23

SaiK wrote: One LCH carrying dozen Helinas, is enough to kill that many khalids.

Assuming no anti-aircraft cover. Helina has a range of 7km.