Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

[devesh]

On the substantive issue (of "US conspiracy" claims), really it seems its a matter of a POV for you..You have no examples, no facts, no thesis - just a claim on which there can be "no debate"..In which case we can move on, because there can never be a discussion beyond a point on POVs backed by no data...Do you even know how the Indian banking sector is structured, its regulations et al? Anyways, as I said there cannot be a debate on a POV with no data...

why all this indirect posturing? i replied to your 3 questions. and when you raised further questions, i clarified. now, is that satisfying? if not, please do tell where you are not satisfied. we will continue the debate on the specifics.

[somnath]

why all this indirect posturing? i replied to your 3 questions. and when you raised further questions, i clarified. now, is that satisfying? if not, please do tell where you are not satisfied. we will continue the debate on the specifics.

Devesh-ji, I havent seen any "specifics" from you, besides a repetition of "US is engaged in conspiracies against India" slogan..I would repeat my questions:

1. Which specific policies of the US/IMF/WB are directed towards "destroying" India's economy?
2. How have these policies affected India?
3. How is D Subbarao "sold out"?
4. Which policies indicate that India is about to sell-off PSBs?

There were a few more that I had asked - but dont have the patience to go through all pages of posts....The above would be a good start...

Did I say I regarded myself as a 'common Joe'? Also I am not the one arguing for using the language of the streets

Ahh, so an "uncommon Joe" unfamiliar with basic english?! About "street language", if the language/syntax is good nough for Premchand and Ashok Chakradhar, its good enough for me...Its amazing how far some people can go to denounce India's own heritage and still claim to be "nationalists"!

Speaking telugu in court when more than 95% of population was telugu was criminal during nizam.

The most underdeveloped parts of maharashtra, karnataka , to an extent Andhra Pradesh even today surprise surprise constitute nizam kingdom. Should tell one about their glorious thuggery oops rule.

Ravi-ji, how is the atrocity in the name of Urdu the fault of the language? There were large scale riots in the name of hindi (imposition) in TN - was that hindi's fault?

Been there done that:

Language development and history

Its an interesting blog...But really, seems more like a POV than a rigorous effort to study the issue...You might want to refer to Prof Krishna Kumar's "Political Agenda of Education" for a start - its available on www as an e-book as well...chronicles the issue of conflict far more rigorously...The conclusions are more complicated than those inferred in the blog...

[Rudradev]

A claim that is repeated on here by some posters with almost pathological insistence, is the idea that their conclusions are based on "data". Apparently, "data" are supposed to be the difference between "rigorous analysis" and "a mere point of view."

What's missing here is the obvious (to most) understanding that "data", in and of themselves, are incapable of supporting any "conclusion." Data are a mass of observations, no more and no less, that one may use as a basis for reasoning IF one assumes them to be true.

It is the reasoning, analysis, collation and interpretation applied to "data" which gives rise to information... and information, in turn, which may lead to conclusions.

Assuming some degree of intellectual honesty is applied in the process of assessing data and converting them to information, those conclusions may even be valid.

But is the assumption of intellectual honesty a reasonable one to make? Especially when the conclusions presented are invariably, repeatedly and demonstrably false? As in

1) The Maharaja's accession of J&K to India was "conditional" and unique among instruments of accession signed by other princely states (source: a pee-er reviewed "human rights" document by some amreekan agency.)

2) "Street language in Delhi, not the artificially Sanskritized language heard on Doordarshan, is representative of Hindi spoken across the length and breadth of the subcontinent" (source: snatch of street language falling on ears during unfortunate 10-second walk from BMW to airconditioned office.)

3) "Deep strike out of the money options" are a greater disincentive to migrant labour and businesses, than Article 370 which explicitly proscribes non-Kashmiris from owning property in J&K. (source: Elite Iskool dictum. "When in doubt, spray jargon like a park full of panicked pigeons and run for your life.")

By themselves, "data" are sound and fury, signifying nothing. They become worth even less than nothing, when some data are cherry-picked because of their sheer convenience to the ideological proclivities of a poster, while others are discarded out of hand for their inconvenience.

When a liar claims repeatedly and incessantly that his viewpoint is based on the "data", but somehow trots out only lies as his conclusions... why, then the desperation of his claim masks only the stark intellectual poverty of the analytical process he is using to convert the alleged "data" into information. Why the credibility of such a liar continues to receive the benefit of the doubt on this forum, I don't know.

[RajeshA]

Rudradev ji,

You know how to make a post stand out!

Bravo!

[brihaspati]

Nadwat ul Ulama [Nadwat dar-ul-ulum] is based at Lucknow, and Sayyid Abul-Hasan ali Nadwi is not "Deobandi". He comes from the same family as that of Sayyid Ahmad Barelvi - the "Jihadi" who was dubbed so and as a "Wahaabi" by the then Brit admin.

"Arabic, the Arab middle East, and the Definition of Muslim identity in Twentieth Century India" by Muhammad Qasim Zaman, Journal fo the Royal Asiatic Society, 3rd Series, vol 8, No. 1 (Apr, 1998) pp 59-81, CUP. on behalf of Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland.

In his own writings, Abu'l-Hasan Ali Nadwi speaks of Islam as a "trust" whose obligations Muslim India had all along fulfilled. The ultimate obligation that the "trust" imposes on Muslim India is to "return" to the Arabs what they had brought to India,81 that is, to rekindle in them the Islamic zeal that India has preserved all along.

In addressing the Arabs against the backdrop of the nationalistic fervour of the 1950s, and drawing attention to the predicament of the Indian Muslims in a secular, Hindu-dominated India, Nadwi skilfully juxtaposes three varieties of Jahiliyya: the pre-Islamic, the modern Arab nationalistic, and, in India, the Jahiliyya of Hindu polytheism and idolatry as well as of attachment to locality and local customs, against which, Nadwi says, the Muslims have continued to struggle till the present. Arab nationalism is a reversion to Jahiliyya not only because the nation rather than Islam becomes the object of devotion, but also, and by the same token, because the pre-Islamic Arab past, the historical Jahiliyya which Islam ought to have completely obliterated, becomes sacrosanct in competition with Islam itself. Even more grievously, so far as Indian Muslims are concerned, the modern Arab Jahiliyya also gives justification to attacks on Muslim efforts to preserve a distinct identity in India: for if the Arabs can return to their non-Islamic past, why must the Muslims of India not do the same?82 This question poses a greater challenge to Muslim identity in India, Nadwi says, than have many a conspiracy against Islam in the past; and ironically, it is the conduct of the Arabs that provides the inspiration for this challenge.83 This sense of betrayal by the Arabs is accompanied by a stern and vigorous declaration of the continuing Indian Muslim commitment to Islam:

"If the entire world were to abandon Islam, our determination would not be weakened. Even if the Turks returned to their 'Turani' nationhood (qawmiyya) and to the customs, beliefs, and glories of their first Jahiliyya, the Iranians to their Sasanian nationhood, seeking honour in their ancestors Rustam and Suhrab, Egypt to its Pharaonicism (fircawniyyatiha), and the people of Arabia - may God not will this - to their Jahiliyya and its heroes [let it be known that] we have not bound our future to any community or nation. We have associated our future and its course with the will of God and His religion. That the entire mankind becomes infidel can be no excuse for us to do the same ... We have pledged to God that we will persevere in His religion and continue to cling to it. And God has vouched for the permanence of His religion and for the continued existence of a group in the community which will hold on to it."84

A similar sentiment was voiced by Nadwi in his inaugural address to the eighty-fifth anniversary of the founding of the Nadwat al-Ulama celebrated with great fervour (and with a large number of delegates from the Arab world) in 1975.85

By the grace of God, the Muslims of India are to a large extent autonomous as regards Islam. They draw guidance from the earliest and most authoritative sources of Islam - the Qur'an and the Sunna and from the lives of Islam's earliest representatives. ... Their faith and their life is tied to the radiance of Islam, not to the ephemeral glimmerings of Muslim nations or Arab states .. ,86

That Indian Islam is "autonomous" is a remarkable statement. It is meant not to deny that Muslims of India are part of the Muslim world, or that they are affected by developments elsewhere, but to assert that their religious commitment does not presuppose or depend on that of Muslims elsewhere. This assertion may have been meant as a statement of fact, but it also has a clearly rhetorical motive: if Muslims of India can hold on to Islam even in the face of a non-Muslim majority that threatens to obscure their religious identity, why cannot Muslims elsewhere, and especially the Arabs, do at least that much? The Arabs are doubly culpable for their loss of faith: it has led to their decline in the world, and though others will continue to persevere in their devotion to Islam, the Arabs have nevertheless let them down.
[...]
Yet, for all the autonomy of Islam in India, the Arabs do matter, and it is significant that this autonomy is invoked precisely in addressing them. But it is only the ideologically committed Arabs who matter, as Nadwi makes clear in stirring rhetoric such as the following, which is calculated to strike a receptive emotional chord among those dissatisfied with nationalist or secularist panaceas in the Arab world:

"If you want, O Arabs, to help us in any way or to wish any success to us, know that it is not any material or monetary assistance that we need. We only ask one thing of you: that you be an example of steadfastness in faith, and act as you did in the past - as the bearers of the eternal message of God, driving away all those who adhere to anyone but Allah or to any religion but Islam. If you did this, you would have given us all the help [we need]."87

Despite its "autonomy", then, Islam in India is anything but immune to how it fares elsewhere, especially among the Arabs. Nadwi's ambivalence in defining this autonomy is brought out most clearly when he sets out to elucidate Islam, and Islamic culture in India, not to the Arabs or even Indian Muslims, but to his Hindu compatriots. Nadwi has written introductory books on Islam and Muslim culture for a non-Muslim, primarily Hindu, audience to remove misunderstanding and minimize the communal conflict endemic in India.88
[...]
In contrast to works analyzed earlier, where the contribution of Muslim India to Islam and the Muslim world was at issue, the concern in these works is to describe what Muslims have historically contributed to society and culture in India, and, in more recent times, to the struggle for India's freedom from colonial rule. Nadwi also proposes to show in these writings that Muslims are as much a part of, and loyal to, India as are the Hindus:

"Their culture, which has taken centuries to evolve, is a combination of both Islamic and Indian influences. This two-fold aspect has, on the one hand, endowed it with a beauty and a richness which is characteristically its own and, on the other, it holds forth the assurance that this culture will operate here not like an alien or a traveller but as a natural, permanent citizen who has built his home in the light of his peculiar needs and circumstances .. ."90

Yet when it comes to actually describing what is Indian about Islam in India, Nadwi adopts a tone which seems laden with some strikingly negative overtones. "Indian Muslims have adopted numerous rites and customs of the soil which are not to be found among Muslims elsewhere", he says.91 These include rites of marriage, public fairs and festivities, social distinctions based on caste and profession, all of which he regards as unfortunate borrowings from the Hindus. Ironically, then, even as he writes to foster mutual understanding between Hindus and Muslims, what is "Indian" about Muslim culture turns out for the most part not to be "Islamic" at all. The "Indian influences" on this culture are acknowledged largely perhaps -for the sake of Nadwi's Hindu audience but when not derided they remain largely unexplored.

An acknowledgement of their existence does serve, however, to sharpen the sense of an immutable Islamic essence, which the Muslims they have preserved and cultivated, and which ultimately remains pure and distinct from any such influences.92 Nadwi is also at pains to emphasize the loyalty and devotion of India's Muslims to the nation-state (and that despite all his strictures against Arab nationalism, or his discomfort with theMuslim nationalism which led to the creation of Pakistan) and to emphasize as well the need for communal harmony between Muslims and Hindus.93 But this harmony is predicated not on similarities between the two communities, still less on a religious and cultural symbiosis; it is based rather on a recognition of their distinct, immutable identities. And there is no question that, for Muslims, the sources of this identity lie not in the historical experience of Islam in India, but in their being part of the greater Muslim world and in their awareness of being such. This awareness has other functions too. As he states in his autobiography, the fact that a large number of dignitaries from the Arab world (including the Shaykh al-Azhar) attended the elaborate celebrations marking the eighty-fifth anniversary of the Nadwat al-Ulama in 1975 demonstrated to the government of India as well as to the majority (Hindu) community that Muslims constitute an international community and that Muslim leaders of India are respected in the Muslim world.94 The same message was equally vital, he says, for the "self-assurance" of Muslims in India.93 Though Nadwi is less than candid on this account, recognition in and by the Arab and Muslim world also has an immediate and particular bearing on the status of the Nadwat al Ulama the institution he represents.

I find Nadwi especially fascinating because I came across his followers early in my life, and those rather unaware of the ground realities of the Barelvi-Deobandi coverage between themselves of Islamism within India can look up the influence which Nadwad dar-ul-Ulum has in the current setting. What happens between Nadwad and Deoband sort of determines the pulse in north GV Islamism. The Kerala Arabic medium colleges and networks were perhaps specifically developed to add a further player and pressure point on the contested space of the north.

Zaman brings out the fundamental dependence of Indian Islam on its extra-Indian identity, which in Nadwi goes to the extreme of trying to purify Arabic Islamism to safeguard Islamism in India.

This is where the danger lies. Find out the number of alimi graduated by the Nadwad and where they disperse and who comes from where from abroad to get trained by them. People will say - oh the ordinary IM does not think that way, its the "elite" Ulema, but well...."students" go to them to get trained and then they are placed in institutional networks covering large parts of the hinterland which in turn gather, train and harangue Friday congregations or out of mosque chit-chat.

[Arjun]

And that is precsely what is so strange about the DD News effort as well...

& why are you bothered as much about something as irrelevant as DD News in this day and age? Your point is just as anachronistic and irrelevant as talking about a US-led IMF conspiracy in the year 2011 !

[ShyamSP]

[del]

[RajeshA]

brihaspati garu,

I sent you an email!

[Rudradev]

And yes, Rudradev-ji, talking of "intellectual honesty", at least be honest to the "data"!

1) The Maharaja's accession of J&K to India was "conditional" and unique among instruments of accession signed by other princely states (source: a pee-er reviewed "human rights" document by some amreekan agency.)

2) "Street language in Delhi, not the artificially Sanskritized language heard on Doordarshan, is representative of Hindi spoken across the length and breadth of the subcontinent" (source: snatch of street language falling on ears during unfortunate 10-second walk from BMW to airconditioned office.)

3) "Deep strike out of the money options" are a greater disincentive to migrant labour and businesses, than Article 370 which explicitly proscribes non-Kashmiris from owning property in J&K. (source: Elite Iskool dictum. "When in doubt, spray jargon like a park full of panicked pigeons and run for your life.")

1. So Justice AS Anand is an "american human rights agency" source..
2. BMW - I wish! But obviously you keep hearing phrases like "Uccha Nyayalay ne Kalpanath Tripathi ko dus varshon ke karavaas ka aadesh diya" on the streets of whichever city you reside in!
3. Options! You bring up the issue of options yourself along with snide remarks on my "elite school" background or rather the lack of it perhaps, but when reminded of your own lack of understanding about the topic (of options), you convert that to something else! Not bad....

BTW, you dont need to go any "elite school" to learn civility....

The "data" again? It seems I was being unduly charitable in assuming that one poster here mistakenly used the word "data" when he meant "information". Apparently he uses the word "data" to mean the raw and unrefined products of rectal extraction. Given the garbage that he has followed up with, this definition makes a lot more sense...

1) The rank fallacy on Kashmir actively promoted by said poster was: "Hari Singh acceded to India on the condition that J&K retained autonomy in all areas except defence, currency
and foreign affairs."

Reference which substantiates this very Paki line of thought? http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/lib ... h2-ch4.pdf Page 11. Physicians for Human Rights, a division of Human Rights Watch!

When called on this lie, the poster responded with some hand-waving about Justice Anand, cherry-picking quotes out of context in a Musharuffian attempt to salvage some H&D. Said poster was decisively exposed on that dishonesty as well.

But apparently, Justice Anand has been co-opted into the "data set" in support of such Pakiness, at this conveniently late date!

2) Actually, as a schoolboy in Mumbai, I heard exactly that sort of syntax, coming from the living rooms of my neighbours (even Muslim, Parsi and Catholic ones) every Sunday morning for years. And not from DD News either... but from Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan and BR Chopra's Mahabharat TV shows.

The extent to which these TV series contributed towards the revival of actual Hindi from beneath the mounds of Persianized dreck that had covered it up thanks to Bollywood, cannot be overemphasized. They may have been far-fetched in their visualization and poor in production value, but as vehicles of popular culture, they re-acquainted Indians with the sound of a real Indian language being spoken.

Even today, generations of Indian kids are growing up with awareness of a genuinely Indian Hindi, thanks to the continuing popularity of Ramayan and Mahabharat (compare their worldwide DVD sales with those of ANY Bollywood movie, by the way). The Indians of tomorrow will reach adulthood in full recognition of what their legacy is. Many of them can already identify as repugnantly foreign the outmoded, Islamophile mongrelizations of such fading fossils as Javed Akhtar and Bhishm Sahani. Or Amitabh Bachchan for that matter... in fifteen years, who is going to care what he sounded like mouthing a schlocky line from a long-forgotten '70s biopic? Ask the unfortunate producers of the remake of "Don", which bombed quite spectacularly!

In fact, Bollywood itself... that last bastion of linguistic Pakiness where these pathetic purveyors of Urdu doggerel were feted by partition-vintage Punjabi producers for way too many decades... has turned away from such nonsense, increasingly, over the last several years. Once upon a time the Sippys and Dev Anands elevated the mongrel camp language of Turco-Afghan mass rapists into a pretense of something refined, more out of a sentimental attachment to their places of birth on the wrong side of the border than anything else. That gave Urdu a lot more exposure than it ever merited, outside the putrefying, isolationist ghettos of the henna-bearded and burqa-clad. Today's Bollywood producers, like most of today's Indians, see Pakistan for the Pakistan it is, and ultimately identify Urdu as the language of that Pakistan. It is now Punjabi that is "cool" in Bollywood... "Chak De India!"... not the dying gasps of a so-called Islamic "culture" whose sole (and deserving) legates are the Pakis.

They can have Urdu and all that is associated with it... when the flush is finally pulled, it can all swirl down the Pakistan together. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance to a spot of India's past with no redeeming features whatsoever.

3) Actually, the poster who accuses me of bait-and-switch, did exactly the same when reminded that there is real value to having an "option" (as any financial analyst worth his salt, shouldn't need to be told.)

Said poster had been carrying on about how the most exclusive boutiques in Mumbai didn't necessarily own the premises where they do business. When it was pointed out that Article 370 is a far greater disincentive against the inflow of investment than high real-estate prices, because it permanently proscribes ownership of property to non-Kashmiris in J&K... the poster, expectedly, switched track in his response! Suddenly he was wailing about poor migrant labourers coming to Mumbai in spite of the fact that they couldn't hope to own property there.

This was justified with some H&D-saving jargon about "deep strike OTM options", because apparently, every village in India has a jyotish/financial-planner (elite iskool alumnus) who judiciously advises aspiring emigrants about the "exercise price" and "contract length" associated with their decision to go to Mumbai.

Somehow this display of learnedness was supposed to refute the idea that Article 370 discourages businesses, labour and investment from the rest of India from going to J&K. What hand-waving is involved in making that connection, I can't even begin to guess. I suppose we will have to ask Justice A.S. Anand

[sanjeevpunj]

One of the most important requirements for the future strategy at the Indo-Pak Border will be the deployment of Drones. Infiltration is not going to stop with talks, we have to forcibly stop infiltration at all possible infiltration points, or we simply invite trouble. India should build its own drones, if not acquire some of the american drones.



A picture of a futuristic drone

[AKalam]

Just wanted to inject a little East Bengal perspective in this language debate, Urdu definitely does not mean Muslim in this context, it means sourced outside Bengal. After 1971 people who were Urdu speakers, stopped using the language or did not advertise that their mother tongue used to be Urdu:

http://www.banglapedia.org/httpdocs/HT/U_0040.HTM

With independence, Urdu lost its importance in Bangladesh. Urdu sections in schools were dropped. Urdu journals and newspapers ceased publication; regular Urdu news broadcasts and Urdu plays also stopped being broadcast. However, Bangladesh Radio continues to broadcast in Urdu in its External Service. The Department of Urdu and Persian continues to exist at the University of Dhaka, but more students opt for Persian than for Urdu these days. While mushairas have stopped, singers have started to cultivate the ghazal in Bangla as well as in Urdu. The birthday of the great Urdu poet Iqbal is celebrated annually, though on a quiet note. [Kaniz-e-Butool]

While I understand, completely sympathize and fully support the reclaiming of lost heritage due to disruption from outsiders (as I mentioned clearly in my pet theories elaborated in some GDF posts, on which I would like to start a thread in the near future), I however wonder sometimes about the use of rhetoric, is the end goal to engineer a reconquista a la Iberian peninsula in the context of the subcontinent? Is it possible or feasible considering the prevailing scenario in the world today and if it is not feasible even in the very long term, then how will it reflect on people who raise false hopes and wishes among the more susceptible and gullible? Then there could be accusations of demagoguery and rabble rousing from the affected victims, but I leave it open for debate from the honorable audience, whether we are moving towards a future that is more enlightened, prosperous and just for the vast majority of worlds population where civilizations cooperate and coexist, or are we traveling towards a future which reflects our past where civilizations try to jostle for supremacy causing great human misery and depredation.

Here I should mention that the Muslim conquest of India has created a lot of bad blood in the remote past and the Partition in more recent times have created loss of lives and property, which have touched millions in their personal lives, perhaps at least 4-5% of the people were directly affected. Is it possible that the scar left on this 4-5% is causing some damage to the interest of the rest 96% of the population of the affected countries of the subcontinent, is this something we should ponder about? Hopefully I did not raise too many taboo or OT issues.

[brihaspati]

Akalam bhai,
finally the crux of the matter. Let me ask you this question in reverse, should the feelings of/what happened to 4-5% in any given society be affecting what happens to the remaining 95-96%? What makes 4-5% a magic number or cutoff? Why should it not be applicable to say 14% versus 86% or say 7% versus 93%?

It will be a very difficult question to answer! Obviously you cannot just cut it off at 5% and say it is not applicable to 6%. If it applies to 6% it should be applicable to 7%. And so on. If it should not, then what happens to Muslims in India or their feelings should not affect the remainder of India, or what happens to the Hindus in Bangladesh should not matter to the remainder of Bangladesh.

The issue being discussed here is not about peaceful coexistence. The problem starts with continued affiliation and identification of a particular "language" as the language of a partiuclar "religion" - by the theocratic leaders of that particular community - who carry on preaching without any obstacle, who establish educational networks to propagate this language, and who deliberately make it a point to replace words from languages they deem not connected to their religion with words they feel come from languages closer to their religion.

Not only that they maintain a conscious preference for loan-words from such languages deemed closer to their religion, but which have their roots and continued usage in countries and parts of the world from where we have had no disruption of an inflow of a theological philosophy of imperialism.

Coexistence is possible once the imperialism is given up. Having the experience of the 4-5% as you put it, we cannot take the risk. We need to ensure that this particular imperialism justified as an integral part of faith, which is also genocidic towards all cultures it sees as alien and not-"faith" - is completely dismantled. Its institutions, its educators, its theological networks have to be gone - before we can really coexist with remnant people.

Coexistence is not possible with the ideology and the theology - but very much possible with the people bereft of that ideology.

Hope I too have not hurt you in my response!

[harbans]

Coexistence is possible once the imperialism is given up. Having the experience of the 4-5% as you put it, we cannot take the risk. We need to ensure that this particular imperialism justified as an integral part of faith, which is also genocidic towards all cultures it sees as alien and not-"faith" - is completely dismantled. Its institutions, its educators, its theological networks have to be gone - before we can really coexist with remnant people.

Coexistence is not possible with the ideology and the theology - but very much possible with the people bereft of that ideology.

Completely agree with B Ji. But this is not the stance of the incluvist Dharmic faith. This is Islam's own stance. Islam is and can never co exist within liberal societies. The more we turn to incluvism, the more Islam recoils in horror. The more we try to assimilate, do Aman, WKK'ize on the border the more the hatred for the Kufr. This is seen as weakness not strength. The Bhatts confuse this with strength, but when they confront the puritan and unadulterated version, Bhatt will resemble Bhutto at the hangmans noose. Bhutto thought he stood for Islam like no Muslim before him..by getting the program on Nukes full steam but it was more puritan Islam that killed him. Bhutto was shell shocked. He thought he'd bought his immunity and could continue with the lifestyle he led, as he'd championed Islam so much..but no..no. There was a purer and more unadulterated version waiting under Zia. This subcontinents culture is anything but Islam. Championing Islam as part of the subcontinents culture mandates the detriment of Dharma, ignoring neighbours that still look to us to guide us, helps in infiltrating their countries with Paki's of all sorts and thus generating pressures against the original culture once again. Nepal for instance. What has Islam done or contributed to Nepal? The D Gang and ISI operate with impunity. IC 814s, money laundering, linking up with Maoists and those who oppose Dharmic civilizational ethos.

India has ultimately to define it's own value system which it must stand by and help it's Dharmic neighbours standby on. India must retain the salience of the universal charter for human rights through it's own narrative and ethos. Example, we know it's Dharmic to standby those at the minimum morally, whom Gadaffi is massacring. Those in West Asia that are clamoring for democracy and a righteous constitution. But we have a set up that sees through an Islamic prism and takes Gadaffi's side. We don't want to converse in more Sankritized versions then we'd be quoting Krishna who exhorts Arjuna to stand by and fight for Dharma. Presently we don't want to do that. We need to base our actions on the volatile emotionality of the Urdu or Arabic/ persianized words we are being thrust with. Language in India will ultimately reflect the ethos of this nation. Bhatt see's and looks through Urdu's prism. He speaks and thinks literally like the Paki elite, uses the same words/ terminology etc. Where's the damned need for him to use Sanskrit and quote Krishna? He does'nt have to fight Adharma.

[AKalam]

brihaspati ji,

I think w.r.t. Urdu, Bangladesh and its Bengali population has clearly shown how they think on this particular issue, which I have stated in my previous post. When Jinnah declared that Urdu will be the sole national language of Pakistan, Bangladesh was born right that instant. But Urdu is not Islam, not for Bengali's and for many other subcontinentals, may be for a good percentage of urban Muslims in India and Pakistan. But RajeshA ji had the right approach IMHO, where it could be used to influence present day Pakistani's, instead of beating a dead horse to a pulp, use it while we can, while it is already half dead and will be dead anyways in the near future.

Arabs, Turkics, Mongols commit genocide in remote past in the subcontinent (none of them spoke Urdu), yes that was imperialism, but who carries these genes, may be a small percentage of subcontinental Muslims in a diluted form (some among them may happen to speak Urdu today). Partition causes loss of lives and property, and this was committed by masses, so there is direct responsibility on both sides, although the move for Partition was done for the Muslims and by a section of the Muslims. Even this Partition happened 63 years ago, before most of us in this forum were born, not that I want to give the impression that the after effect will be gone any time in the near future.

What happened since 1947 from Pakistan w.r.t. India till today, the responsibility lies with mostly Pakjabi perfidi, a purely local subcontinental affair, nothing much to do with Islam and Muslms in the rest of the world.

But what have we learned from these?

From your POV, you would like to strip people of this alien ideology, dismantle it and ship it way for good from the subcontinent. So you are dreaming of a reconquista a la Iberian peninsula, as I had guessed.

I guess we should wait with baited breath for the new Spanish Inquisition to start here in the subcontinent.

As for me getting hurt, I am not sure how to feel, I am surprised that someone as intelligent and knowledgeable as yourself could hold such views, but I guess you do it not for yourself, but as an obligation for the safety and security of countless millions, the obligation of leadership as they say, so I understand you.

I will carry on a related discussion of my pet theories in a new thread, a public one, if the moderators permit. I would like to call it:

Historical Continuity and Large Systems

[harbans]

Kalam ji no, it need not be that. Thats why i stress on a native value based system that reflects the universal charter. Once we do make it, it guarantees rights to all. It's the identification of the ethos and the value system that is of utmost importance. The same that should reflect in the constitution. This ONLY will prevent degradation of core civilization, the Iberianization and sanitization of pure Islam followed in the Subcontinent. If we and i mean India does not or fails to identify that ethos in it's true national character, we will end up losing to the Maoists and the Paki version or Purer and more literal versions of Islam. We will end up also losing our own civilizational ethos forever from the only land we can claim is ours. Without that i don't see how we survive 2120. There's nothing wrong stating that Islam is incompatible with other religions because thats what History tells us. Thats what Islams docrine says about non-muslims. This is not up for debate. Islam is an excluvist ideology. Islam cannot and must never be used to form a value system in the subcontinent. Pakistan is a prime example. They are doing a bad job and now the Talib are up against the Govt only asking for a value system based on the more literal interpretaion.

When India defines it's value system which in a very shaky way it does today..in spurts really. Amidst silences and indecisions..it does'nt send a clear message. It shakes up core civilizational constituencies in Nepal, Tibet, Myanmar and they move away to others with clearer ideologies even though more ruthless. India's lack of character in defining it's underlying ethos and ideology provides a vacuum to the Maoists and Islamists to grow. It's this vacuum that the Mulayam yadavs, Bhatts, Pakistan, Maoists, Pseudo secularists exploit.

[harbans]

The issue arises that if one follows moderate Islam in India or in other liberal countries there are not many issues. Once one starts to study and go deeper, natural conflicts arise. The realization that Muslims need separate laws. Distaste for the non-believer and so on. THe polarization of society starts there. It's been happening since Islam was born. Islams future should not be India's responsibilty in developing it's ethos. Responsibility for the followers yes, indeed. But not the religion per se.

[RamaY]

While I understand, completely sympathize and fully support the reclaiming of lost heritage due to disruption from outsiders (as I mentioned clearly in my pet theories elaborated in some GDF posts, on which I would like to start a thread in the near future), I however wonder sometimes about the use of rhetoric, is the end goal to engineer a reconquista a la Iberian peninsula in the context of the subcontinent? Is it possible or feasible considering the prevailing scenario in the world today and if it is not feasible even in the very long term, then how will it reflect on people who raise false hopes and wishes among the more susceptible and gullible? Then there could be accusations of demagoguery and rabble rousing from the affected victims, but I leave it open for debate from the honorable audience, whether we are moving towards a future that is more enlightened, prosperous and just for the vast majority of worlds population where civilizations cooperate and coexist, or are we traveling towards a future which reflects our past where civilizations try to jostle for supremacy causing great human misery and depredation.

AKalam bhai,

What is reconquista? It is the process of retaking (and repopulating) native lands from the invaders and reestablishing native culture and civilization. Can it be a wrong goal to start with? Why would the local population (assuming majority were local to the land) fear such a transformation given that after all they were already prevailed by a stronger opponent and socially engineered once? When will reconquista becomes painful; after one/two/three generations? What happens when both conquest and reconquista happen within one generation?

Coming to the possibility of such social transformation happening in this modern age(an interesting term on its own; weren't middle ages modern days compared to ancient history?) - What is the process of (peaceful) breakup of CCCP and following democratization of former soviet blocks? Isn't it a form of reconquista when a newly formed state becomes a christian or muslim majority nation? Didn't those societies transform from Leninism to the original ideologies?

What do you think [sic] secularism is? My pet theory is that the combination of secularism and market-economy are the latest tools of conquest/reconquista. What is happening in NA and ME is just this

[brihaspati]

Akalam bhai,

I acknowledge that you are a Bangali from Bangladesh. Hence I am not that surprised that you will think in a certain way about Urdu vis-a-vis Bangla. But the quote that you posted - does it really reflect all the complexity and the political dimesion of the Urdu-Bangla dispute? I can go on into this debate - from Bangladeshi authors and scholars as well as activists - which would reflect a much more complex picture than neutrality towards Urdu, or that mere proposing by Jinnah precipitating the crisis. It was about "varnamala" - the script being replaced, as well as "rashtra-bhasha". The demand for "rashtra-bhasa bangla chai" makes it a political claim, a clear connection of language to rashtra or state, or the mutual possession of state and language.

But then again, the question of Islam is really not completely pushed into the background either - why the preferential use of "paani" which is used in Urdu and not use "jal" in spoken and written "Bangla"? Does it really provide a new word for something for which there were no words available in the pre-existing language? Why the replacement of the common-nicknames for relatives with the Persian or Arabic versions - when words were available before? [why "khala" and not "mashi" - which can be deparsed from the Sanskritik root "matri-swasa" - sister of mother, and can be guessed even without knowing samasa if someone has even literary familiarity with older classical Bangla, but to deparse "khala" you need to know a foreign language and its syntax outside your mother-tongue]. Then strangely you will notice that further you move away from Dhaka or other irban centres which were also older Islamic admin centres, you have scattered words that have run over from Prakrit/Sanskrit - like Matari [matri], or many other Sylheti expressions!

Arabs, Turkics, Mongols commit genocide in remote past in the subcontinent (none of them spoke Urdu), yes that was imperialism, but who carries these genes, may be a small percentage of subcontinental Muslims in a diluted form (some among them may happen to speak Urdu today). Partition causes loss of lives and property, and this was committed by masses, so there is direct responsibility on both sides, although the move for Partition was done for the Muslims and by a section of the Muslims. Even this Partition happened 63 years ago, before most of us in this forum were born, not that I want to give the impression that the after effect will be gone any time in the near future.

Yes Arabs, Turkics, Mongols, and Afghans [and Iraqis and Yemenis - one of them went to then Srihatta and now Sylhet with an army sent out from Gaur] came and fought battles and committed genocide, and none o fthem spoke Urdu - but Urdu has been constructed out of what they spoke in their camps, and more importantly it was their words that got mixed on a syntactical and grammatical layer of the native language of the north. So when Sayeed Ahmed began to push for Urdu - it was a deliberate political choice, that highlighted its non-Indic or rather what was perhaps considered its non-Hindu aspect and what was then seen as "Islamic".

What I have been trying to complain more against is this tendency for subcontinental Islam to define itself in "neti neti" terms - as "not" Hindu, and India as primarily "Hindu land" distinct from the purer reealms of Islamic origins. So Islams' language on the subcontinent has to be distinct from what is seen to be the language of the Hindu. Everything must be done in opposition, in distinction, in contrast, in separation - and in continuity with Arab, Persia.

What happened since 1947 from Pakistan w.r.t. India till today, the responsibility lies with mostly Pakjabi perfidi, a purely local subcontinental affair, nothing much to do with Islam and Muslms in the rest of the world.

But what have we learned from these?

Actually 1947 really happened on both the Pakjabi side as well as the Bengal side, and the theory for this ultimate perfidy was equally developed around in UP, Pakjab and Dhaka. What happened since 1947 was a solid continuation of this tradition - only that Bengali Muslims in then East Pakistan got a feel of what they had unleashed in alliance with Jinnah. This is not the thread, but what happened was not purely a subcontinental local affair - and I can bring up chains of connections that will not really look that innocent.

From your POV, you would like to strip people of this alien ideology, dismantle it and ship it way for good from the subcontinent. So you are dreaming of a reconquista a la Iberian peninsula, as I had guessed.

I guess we should wait with baited breath for the new Spanish Inquisition to start here in the subcontinent.

No, I think you know very well from my previous writings that I do not support ethnic cleansing, and for me subcontinental Muslims are my blood kin. I think there is a lot of propaganda about the reality of the Iberian reconquista - and that is a different history altogether. In the Iberian case, things were much more complicated than you make it out to be. The Alhambra period is reprsented as a paragon of tolerance, but the underlying brutality or atrocities are usually suppressed, thereby putting up "reconquista" as a kind of precedence-less violence. Moreover I think the last "sultan" and his retinue was allowed to pass through and go into exile into North Africa peacefully, and his wives and mother definitely survived as Muslims - since the mother is recorded as having chastized her son for "weeping" on the way out. Compare this with what was done to the captive queen of the Goths on the battlefield where the first "Moors" won on Al-Andalus! I think you should seriously study the "reconquista" -which will throw up some nasty surprises for you - for example the fact that some of those who are seen for long as "Sapnish" reconquistadors torturing "innocent Muslims" were actually North African and Moorish and Muslim to start out with who switched over to the rising Christian "north"?

As for me getting hurt, I am not sure how to feel, I am surprised that someone as intelligent and knowledgeable as yourself could hold such views, but I guess you do it not for yourself, but as an obligation for the safety and security of countless millions, the obligation of leadership as they say, so I understand you.

I am not sure why you chose to misunderstand me! I have been criticized for defending reabsorption of those who have been born in lands currently occupied by the Paki occupation government. I want them whole and hearty - otherwise how can I win them over? We can do nothing with dead bodies! I want them to be exposed to the choice of not following the mullah blindly, not feeling guilty for not being born in the Arabian peninsula or Iranian higlhland or Caspian coast. I have clearly stated that my targets is the institutional network that maintains the imperialist part of the doctrine - which of necessity has to construct ideas of racial superiority, cultural world centres in the power base of the imperialist, of linguistic hierarchy based on the imperialists language and the seeking of replacement of all aspects of "conquered" cultures.

Never ever have I put my targets as the common followers or the people. That would be a gross mis-statement!

[harbans]

Great Post Brahaspati ji! Awesome!

[somnath]

whether we are moving towards a future that is more enlightened, prosperous and just for the vast majority of worlds population where civilizations cooperate and coexist, or are we traveling towards a future which reflects our past where civilizations try to jostle for supremacy causing great human misery and depredation.

AKalam-ji, that is what it is finally all about..There is a huge political vested interest in maintaining the "clash of civilisations" thesis...Especially interesting in the "hindu-muslim" perspective as the original author of the thesis had hinduism as but a footnote in his narrative...MJ Akbar's "Shade of the Sword", which is another magisterial account of the spread of Islam through jihad, shows the interesting nuances of how islam interacted in India with the hindus versus how it did in most other places...

As a sidenote, it would be useful to read Maulana Azad's presidential address to the Ramgarh session of the Congress, in 1940...Given the context (of rising tide of the "Pakistan" movement, and ever-sharpening cleavages between the two cmmunities), it stands out in its erudition and emotion and logic..
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/prit ... _1940.html

I will refernece some of the sections that I felt stood out...

I am a Musalman and am proud of that fact. Islam's splendid traditions of thirteen hundred years are my inheritance. I am unwilling to lose even the smallest part of this inheritance. The teaching and history of Islam, its arts and letters and civilisation, are my wealth and my fortune. It is my duty to protect them.

As a Musalman I have a special interest in Islamic religion and culture, and I cannot tolerate any interference with them. But in addition to these sentiments, I have others also which the realities and conditions of my life have forced upon me. The spirit of Islam does not come in the way of these sentiments; it guides and helps me forward.

I am proud of being an Indian. I am a part of the indivisible unity that is Indian nationality. I am indispensable to this noble edifice, and without me this splendid structure of India is incomplete. I am an essential element which has gone to build India. I can never surrender this claim. (this, probably encapsulates everything he wanted to say)

It was India's historic destiny that many human races and cultures and religions should flow to her, finding a home in her hospitable soil, and that many a caravan should find rest here. Even before the dawn of history, these caravans trekked into India, and wave after wave of newcomers followed. This vast and fertile land gave welcome to all, and took them to her bosom. One of the last of these caravans, following the footsteps of its predecessors, was that of the followers of Islam. This came here and settled here for good.

This led to a meeting of the culture-currents of two different races. Like the Ganga and Jumna, they flowed for a while through separate courses, but nature's immutable law brought them together and joined them in a sangam. This fusion was a notable event in history. Since then, destiny, in her own hidden way, began to fashion a new India in place of the old. We brought our treasures with us, and India too was full of the riches of her own precious heritage. We gave our wealth to her, and she unlocked the doors of her own treasures to us. We gave her what she needed most, the most precious of gifts from Islam's treasury, the message of democracy and human equality.

Full eleven centuries have passed by since then. Islam has now as great a claim on the soil of India as Hinduism. If Hinduism has been the religion of the people here for several thousands. of years, Islam also has been their religion for a thousand years. Just as a Hindu can say with pride that he is an Indian and follows Hinduism, so also we can say with equal pride that we are Indians and follow Islam. I shall enlarge this orbit still further. The Indian Christian is equally entitled to say with pride that he is an Indian and is following a religion of India, namely Christianity.

Eleven hundred years of common history have enriched India with our common achievement. Our languages, our poetry, our literature, our culture, our art, our dress, our manners and customs, the innumerable happenings of our daily life, everything bears the stamp of our joint endeavour. There is indeed no aspect of our life which has escaped this stamp. Our languages were different, but we grew to use a common language; our manners and customs were dissimilar, but they acted and reacted on each other, and thus produced a new synthesis. Our old dress may be seen only in ancient pictures of bygone days; no one wears it today.

This joint wealth is the heritage of our common nationality, and we do not want to leave it and go back to the times when this joint life had not begun. If there are any Hindus amongst us who desire to bring back the Hindu life of a thousand years ago and more, they dream, and such dreams are vain fantasies. So also if there are any Muslims who wish to revive their past civilization and culture, which they brought a thousand years ago from Iran and Central Asia, they dream also, and the sooner they wake up the better. These are unnatural fancies which cannot take root in the soil of reality. I am one of those who believe that revival may be a necessity in a religion but in social matters it is a denial of progress.

This thousand years of our joint life has moulded us into a common nationality. This cannot be done artificially. Nature does her fashioning through her hidden processes in the course of centuries. The cast has now been moulded and destiny has set her seal upon it. Whether we like it or not, we have now become an Indian nation, united and indivisible. No fantasy or artificial scheming to separate and divide can break this unity. We must accept the logic of fact and history, and engage ourselves in the fashioning of our future destiny.

I have read this in many places - most chroniclers of the independence movement quote some sections of this speech - Bipin Chandra, Patrick French, MJ Akbar and afew more that I have read...And it still gives goosebumps by the sheer emotional content around the logical construct...

Now, we all know that the political outcome of this turned out differently, but that isnt the point of discussion here..Nor is the reference to the Spanish inquistion - its complicated, and really not what is being discussed here...

The point simply is - are we in a "clash of civlisations", or are we in a "clash of the uncivilised"?

Bngladesh fought a war on the issue of language, but that was a not a (edited later: missed out the "not") war based on in terms of the "pollution" of the bagla language, but one of bengali identity....

In India, we tackled our own language problems with far more elan than Pakistan...As a result, 60 + years since independence, hindi in its various forms is more popular than ever before..And its popularity is based on a continuously developing idiom that has incorporated nuances from most regions of India and the subcontinent...

The similarity with English is startling - the Oxford English Dictionary incorporates dozens, in fact hundreds of new words/expressions from the Orient regularly - so much so that words like pundit, bazaar, caravan, chador are indistnguishable parts of the english lexicon..And it has remained the lingua franca of the world - even as the world saw the rise (and relative fall) of Japan, and the rise of China, english retained its lingua franca status...

Hindi has had a similar progress in the subcontinent...In its various dialects it is impossible to "filter" out the so-called "foreign"...Any attempt to belabour upon such an effort would rise to scenarios like:

"Bharatiya Prudyogiki Sansthan/Bharatiya Prabandhan Sansthan ke pravesh pareeksha mein utteerna hona ateeva kathin hai",

when all that someone's really trying to say

"IIT/IIM ka entrance exam pass karna bahut mushkil hai"...

Obvioulsy the larger question is lost (or "obversed") on people who need to go back to remote rural bengal to find references to "sarani" (there is Bidhan Sarani in the heart of Calcutta) - shows their roots...

The issue isnt with the specific words, but with the context and communication and the larger goals behind them....It becomes curious when people start selectively "giving away" rights on political grounds...

So urdu should be "cleansed out" of hindi/India because it has been (tried to be) apropriated by the Islamist cause...Well, by the same token, Kashmir is being sought to be appropriated by the Islamist cause as well, do we "cleanse" it out as well? to reiterate a point I made before, punjabi was sought to be appropriated by the Khalistanis, did we "cleanse" it out as well? If we did, what would we use for "Chak de"!? Uttolan Kar

[brihaspati]

Fact, facts are always the first casualty of agenda that pretends that it is not an agenda all thw hile it accuses others as having an agenda. The immediate cause of declaration of war was on the basis of the "6-points" demand by Sk Mujib, the illegal dispossesion of the legitimatley elected majority government and the genocide committed on 25th March. This was not about corruption of the language. The language march and "martyrdom" was much much earlier.

[harbans]

So urdu should be "cleansed out" of hindi/India because it has been (tried to be) apropriated by the Islamist cause...Well, by the same token, Kashmir is being sought to be appropriated by the Islamist cause as well, do we "cleanse" it out as well?

Somnath ji, it's not about some active cleansing of Urdu that is being talked about. India does'nt have a problem with absorbing language or learning more or incorporating words to describe some emotion/ state or thing. Many languages have a unique way to describe some strange emotion. Deja Vu remains so. It's borrowed heavily. There's possibly no word in any other language to describe that. Karma is another word other languages borrowed because they had no other word for that. Volumes have been written in philosophy to try and translate messages of the Upanishads which individually describe those brushes with enlightenment so lucidly. The philosophical concepts that can be so precise in Sanskrit require a volume in English to translate and imbibe. Reverse trying to put a modern economics or Physics paper into Sanskrit of Hindi for that matter and one would be struggling for words. Languages are not equivalents necessarily. When IIT's came about there was a debate on language. It was done when the logistics of translating modern papers into different languages was figured. It was easier for the most brilliant minds to learn another language and directly read the latest on Science/ tech. Ironically, when the British left India, 10,000 to 20000 people or so were fluent in English. Yet 60 years hence, we are the largest English speaking country in the world. And it's almost everyones 2nd or 3rd language.

Maulana Azad was a nationalist, but for a different reason. He wanted a united India becasue he believed a 25-30 % Muslim population could control India. By partioning India lost 15-20% of it's Muslim population in one shot. Most of what he wrote in that speech has been proven wrong. Both by partition and the way Pakistan has turned out.

Why should India hesitate in saying it will follow the principles of Sanatana Dharma say if they have all the good points of the Universal charter of Human rights enshrined in it? Why would anyone object? Why not put an original flavor to our value system so that it connects with people, makes that a part of it. The West did it. On our core philosophy and gave it their own ethnic local hero's. Same they did with the Universal charter. Here we would like to be on the right side of Dharma, but the GOI guiltily as it seems we are copying the West. I see neutral people say India is resembling the West and some more keener observers saying the West is resembling India..the latter holds truer IMHO.

JMT/

PS: Urdu is Hindi..to that i do agree with Somnathji. The difference lies in persianizing the script and a deliberate and mass infusion of Arabic and Persian words that have politicized and given a religious flavor to it. It's like the son of a village father who goes to the US and starts to walk and talk like one, even wears the cowboy hat and talk about John Wayne in Sitamarhi, Bihar..it's his son, but it's impossible for the father to 'really' say that..bad example maybe..but it's the drift regards Urdu and Hindi.

[Arjun]

[Why should India hesitate in saying it will follow the principles of Sanatana Dharma say if they have all the good points of the Universal charter of Human rights enshrined in it? Why would anyone object? Why not put an original flavor to our value system so that it connects with people, makes that a part of it. The West did it. On our core philosophy and gave it their own ethnic local hero's. Same they did with the Universal charter. Here we would like to be on the right side of Dharma, but the GOI guiltily as it seems we are copying the West. I see neutral people say India is resembling the West and some more keener observers saying the West is resembling India..the latter holds truer IMHO.

Spot on. This is the ideal to aim for when talking of 'Indian soft power'.

[somnath]

Maulana Azad was a nationalist, but for a different reason. He wanted a united India becasue he believed a 25-30 % Muslim population could control India. By partioning India lost 15-20% of it's Muslim population in one shot. Most of what he wrote in that speech has been proven wrong. Both by partition and the way Pakistan has turned out.

Why should India hesitate in saying it will follow the principles of Sanatana Dharma say if they have all the good points of the Universal charter of Human rights enshrined in it? Why would anyone object? Why not put an original flavor to our value system so that it connects with people, makes that a part of it. JMT/

Harbans-ji, dont agree with you on Maulana Azad, though he has been broadly ravaged by history (read Rajmohan Gandhi's account - of poignant disappointment with how a "hero" turned out!)..Its a different discussion, but Azad wasnt certainly looking at "muslim superiority" while oposing partition - thats not something anyone has ever accused him of...Pertinently, in that speech he really encapsulates what India is about, and that articulation is so inspiring(at least to me)....Especially when seen in the context of the situation that the speech was made..

I dont have an issue if there are a group of people who want to propagate Sanatan Dharma or any such indic philosophy, not sure it will have too much resonance in campuses today, but no harm trying...However, India is a "living example by being" really - the idea of India itself is a philosophy - we dont really need to frame something like an official Charter out...

Inclusivity in all respects and an ability to absorb are the biggest strengths that are ours naturally....Belaboured lnguage "cleansing" exercises dont fit into that in any manner...

[somnath]

the interesting headline today was the BRIC arrangement to offer credit/grant lines to each other in local currencies..
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world- ... 35836.html

Its largely symbolic - none of the 4 countries have any great credit or grant lines to each other - but its a symbolic move forward..The big topic of discussion today is the Chinese attempt to get CNY as an alternate to USD as a reserve ccy...Its not going to happen in a hurry, but there is some movement in that direction...

India needs to start consolidating South Asia within cooperative architectures quickly...We have been following China in all the Asian economic/security architectures - ARF, SCO et al...But our vision around SAARC has been singularly myopic, and hostage to our relations with Pak....Let us keep Pak out of the architecture if required, but a South Asian Common Market initiated by India will pre-empt any Chinese effort to do so in the future - remember china now is an invitee to SAARC...Individually, China is talking of building a railway line to Nepal, of course building and safekeeping that KArakoram highway with Pak...We need to be able to consolidate South Asia (ex Pak) into cooperative architectures before China taks the initiative away....

[Sanku]

the interesting headline today was the BRIC arrangement to offer credit/grant lines to each other in local currencies..
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world- ... 35836.html

If you remember, you had pooh-pahed me last year for suggesting pretty much a very similar arrangement, and my proposal was limited to India and Russia.

[somnath]

One of the features of ignorance is bliss, and to some people of smug versions of it...So a hare-brained "barter trade" proposal (to be "squared off" @ the end of each year, whatever that means) is the same as a grants/credit line facility in lcy!!!

BTW, the biggest lcy grants line in the history of India was the PL480 programme of the US, which also partially funded the first IIT/IIM..

[somnath]

The world is changing faster than we could have anticipated. Certainly faster than the Jurassic Parks called American think tanks can anticipate.

----------------
>>India needs to start consolidating South Asia within cooperative architectures quickly

Why limit to South Asia alone? The whole of IOR is India's pool. We are the most balanced power (economic, military, political, and philosophical) in this region, where we can actually produce changes to our liking.

Of course, we are also the most balanced power in the world in that sense, but we still need to be able to influence events far from our shores before we consider it our pool.

I wouldnt be dismissive of American think tanks at all - they constitute the best infrastructure of long run strategic thinking in the world...And a lot of them have been talking of the shift to Asia...

Anyways, why only South Asia? Because if we cant consolidate our own neighbourhood within such architectures, what credibility do we have in proposing successful models far offshore? SA is a start, once that is in place, we extend it...BTW, the IOR concept has also been initiated..The Indian Ocean Rim initiative was started by PVNR...Issue is, its too nebulous even now to formalise into something concrete....But it can happen..First, we need to display that we can take leadership and create a successful architecture - what better place than our backyard?

[Advait]

Why is this language talk still going on in this thread?

Mods, admins, anybody please move this thread to GDF or create a new thread for language.

Seems like Somnathji was successful in diverting our attention and others fell for it.

[brihaspati]

Trade and investment ties is the road to go - to consolidate "south Asia" under [Indian?] leadership? Subtract Pak from it - okay - is AFG included ? In that case Iran needs to be included too since it will only be a resident in economic cukooland who can think of long term serious material collaboration without direct transport access. To get Iran on board need to ruffle up the feathers of Saudi Aarbia. So if all that cannot be done given both conflicting sides need to be equally scratched in their back - then forget AFG and Pak. Okay so Nepal, Bhutan, BD, SL and whom, Myanmar? Thailand? No need to consider pre-existing rivalries. Trade and investment ties alone will work the magic key that solves everything - the following voices must be delusional!

Contemporary Southeast Asia: A Journal of International and Strategic Affairs
Volume 31, Number 1, April 2009

E-ISSN: 1793-284X Print ISSN: 0129-797X
Sino-Japanese Relations:
Interdependence, Rivalry and Regional Security
Leszek Buszynski


Rivalry within interdependence is possible. Trade and investment ties alone are not sufficient to bring peace and security to a relationship, the responsiveness of the political leadership to economic interdependence is critical. Responsiveness can be influenced by a history of conflict in a relationship, national ambitions or by a military which espouses expansionist plans. Britain and Germany before 1914 demonstrated that interdependence and rivalry can coexist and may degenerate into war. This can happen when one side under the influence of a dominant military falsely assumes that the other would be constrained by interdependence from responding to its military action. Both Japan and China have become bound by a tight economic interdependence despite their historical animosities. These animosities could be exacerbated by military modernization and China’s plans to develop a naval capability to protect its sealanes. Japan would be prompted to respond to the development of Chinese naval power which would aggravate existing rivalry with Beijing. To reduce the impact of this rivalry both ASEAN and the United States should clearly signal to Beijing that military action over Taiwan or naval expansion without transparency would be unacceptable. Otherwise false assumptions would arise in Beijing that interdependence would constrain responses to China’s risk taking.

Key words: Japan, China, interdependence, rivalry, sealanes, navy.

LESZEK BUSZYNSKI is Professor of the Graduate Program in International Relations at the International University of Japan, Niigata, Japan.

It sometimes matters as to who is saying something rather than what he says. But in this case since the author is saying something that casts doubts on the economic interdependence as the road to security dogma, the author's words can be doubted even if it is from a "scholar".

[brihaspati]

My apologies, there is at least one trade that can go with AFG without physical transport connections. There should be large financial flows into AFG to develop IT sector there, and then they can export software - can't they? For that they don't need surface transport! Apologies again. How about not-standard items like drugs, women etc and bringing them into the tax net?

[brihaspati]

X-posting from Indian interests thread :

ramana wrote
Ashok Mehta writes in Pioneer. Time for introspection.

India needs to review forces

India should draw lessons, the most obvious being ordering a whole Government review of existing capabilities, threats and opportunities and future forces to cope with the challenges. The Indian Army is engaged in an ad hoc transformation which is ‘uplinked’ with the other two services. The Indian Air Force and Navy’s numbers of aircraft and ships have gone haywire as their long-term re-equipment plans never materialised due to bad planning and funding support. Consequently India is already the world’s biggest importer of weapons and will spend $ 100 billion in the next decade.

Britain has cut costs and capability through a defined review mechanism. India is to boost military capabilities which must derive from getting the character of future conflict right without dissipating resources on the fashionable ‘full spectrum of war’. Identifying critical missions and affordable risks must come from political foresight, good generalship and deft diplomacy. We must not duck the review at any rate.

Now that last bolded line is a double-edged sword. That can be used as a line to choose and pick as to what should be seen as the real "risk". Combine this with trade and investments, which should by dogma reduce the "risks" and therefore no need to upgrade militarily or plan for scenarios that might be needed to be seen in the conflict framework - because after all "trade and investment interdependence" is tight enough. The money saved should be reinvested in that trade and investment relationship.

[brihaspati]

Japan and China cannot be studied as an example - in spite of very high trade volume and value, because it shows up aspects of multilateral interactions that need to be suppressed from view. Yes, of course. Any counterexample that shows possible breakdown of strategic calculations in terms of security by sole reliance on trade and "economic interdependence" - has to be rejected. Only those examples that support the demands of sole monopolists of international relations wisdom [but whose exposure to political economy is nil, leading to arrogant outbursts of ridicule about standard terminology!] based solely on financial[?] expertise[?] - are proper examples. Any other examples that contradict the self-appointed high-priest of foreign policy is worthless - to be ignored!

Or is there a deeper purpose in diverting attention from the risks involved in pushing and only concentrating on "economic interdependence" as a means of guaranteeing security and collaboration!

Well, relying on "party/regime" independent cooperation from Nepal does show a superb ignorance of the complexity of Nepal, and an almost complete ignorance of anything beyond the voices from certain circles in Kathmandu. Sk Haseena is a permanent dictator of Bangladesh, and her opposing forces under Begum Zia will never come to power. Rajapakshe is a permanent dictator of SL. And Maldives shows complete reliability on India's part while it increases the hold of the hardcore Islamists led by mullahcracy trained and returned from Pak.

So our reliability now reduces to supposed "permanently India friendly" individuals! Each country reduced to an equal-equal with a dictator. That shows a wonderful lack of near complete ignorance of how the neighbourhood of India works. How detached can currency notes and financial instruments make someone from reality and some basic intellectual self-restraint and humility?

[brihaspati]

Slightly dated views from the Japanese side : [sure more up todate figures available - but I am using the Japanese MOFA site!]

http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/china/index.html

Trade with Japan (2006):
Exports: $118.4 billion
Imports: $92.9 billion
Direct Investment from Japan (realized value):
$58.2 billion (Cumulative Total until 2006)
Japan's Economic Cooperation:
Overview of Japan's ODA to China (June 2005)
List of Exchange of Notes
Review on Japan's ODA to China
Economic Cooperation Program for China (October 2001)

(a) Loans: 3,133.1 billion yen (Cumulative Total until FY 2004)
(b) Grants: 145.7 billion yen (Cumulative Total until FY 2004)
(c)Technical Cooperation: 144.6 billion yen (Cumulative Total until FY 2003)

Japan's Basic Policy Toward the People's Republic of China

In order to ensure the stability and prosperity of the Asia-Pacific region, it is important to encourage China to become an even more constructive partner in the international community. In particular, the following points are stressed:
(a) Support for China's open and reform policy (implementation of economic cooperation, support for China's early accession to the WTO, etc.)
(b) Promotion of bilateral and multilateral dialogue and cooperative relations (high-level exchanges, Japan-China security dialogue, ASEAN Regional Forum, APEC, etc.)

Cultural Exchanges

Japan and China signed the Japan-China Cultural Exchange Agreement in 1979, and the two countries have been conducting various cultural exchanges, both at governmental and private levels.
In 1999, in order to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the signing of the Japan-China Cultural Exchange Agreement and the 50th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China, various cultural activities took place in both countries throughout the year, including serial performance of the musical "The Beauty and the Beast" in Beijing assisted by the Shiki Theatrical Company, performances by the Takarazuka Revue Company in Beijing and Shanghai, and "Chinese Film Week 1999" in Tokyo, organized by the Japan Foundation.

Cultural Grant (cumulative total fiscal 1975-2004)

1,977.1 million yen (Cultural Grant Aid)
280.0 million yen (Grant Aid for Cultural Heritage)
40.5 million yen (Grant Assistance for Cultural Grassroots Projects)

But then comes the "recent relations bit" - and should be obvious what the undercurrents are - even apparent through the diplomatic obfuscations and indirectness in http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/ ... tions.html

Overview of Official Development Assistance (ODA) to China
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/oda/region ... index.html
June 2005

Official Development Assistance (ODA) to China began in 1979 and from that time to the present, approximately 3.1331 trillion yen in loan aid (yen loans), 145.7 billion yen in grant aid, and 144.6 billion yen in technical cooperation have been implemented.
Grant Aid

Grant aid is financial assistance that is extended to recipient countries without imposing an obligation of repayment.
Loan Aid

Loan aid involves the provision of loans under relaxed conditions (low interest, long repayment period) to recipient countries. (These are in principle untied loans.)
Technical Cooperation

Technical cooperation involves the technologies being provided to recipient countries to spread the use of technology among people in developing countries and improve technical levels.

Past ODA projects in China included large-scale economic infrastructure projects, including the building of roads, airports and power stations, as well as infrastructure projects in medical and environmental areas. These projects have played a significant role in the realization of China's current economic growth.

For example, through Japanese loan aid (yen loans), a total length of 5,200 km of railway lines were electrified, and in the area of seaports, approximately 60 large-size berths capable of taking ships in excess of 10,000 tons were built. In addition, the China-Japan Friendship Hospital that was established through grant aid is one of the major medical institutions in the Beijing metropolitan area, treating approximately 3,000 patients each day.

Assistance includes more than infrastructure projects. In the area of technical cooperation the Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) has accepted trainees from China for the purpose of providing assistance to cultivate administrative personnel. As of FY2003 JICA had accepted a cumulative total of over 15,000 trainees, and the Association for Overseas Technical Scholarship (AOTS) had accepted more than 22,000 trainees to nurture the human resources required for industrial promotion. JICA has also dispatched 5,000 experts to China.

Large-scale Economic Infrastructure Projects (Loan Aid)
Airports

Shanghai Pudong International Airport Construction Project (40.0 billion yen)
Beijing Capital Airport Terminal Area Expansion Project (30.0 billion yen)
Lanzhou Zhongchuan Airport Expansion Project (6.3 billion yen)
Wuhan Tianhe Aerodrome Construction Project (6.3 billion yen)
Xi'an Xianyang International Airport Terminal Expansion Project (3.09 billion yen)

Cumulative total of aid in this area excluding the above-mentioned projects: 111.6 billion yen
Railway Lines

Beijing-Qinhuangdao Railway Expansion Project (87.0 billion yen)
Guiyang-Loudi Railway Construction Project (30.0 billion yen)
Chongqing Urban Railway Construction Project (27.1 billion yen)
Beijing Subway Construction Project (19.7 billion yen)
Datong-Qinhuangdao Railway Construction Project (18.4 billion yen)

Cumulative total of aid in this area excluding the above-mentioned projects: 641.8 billion yen
Roads

Hangzhou-Quzhou Expressway Construction Project (30.0 billion yen)
Liangping-Changshou Highway Construction Project (24.0 billion yen)
Xinxiang-Zhengzhou Highway Construction Project (23.5 billion yen)
Guiyang-Xinzhai Highway Construction Project (15.0 billion yen)
Heilongjiang Heihe-Beian Road Construction Project (12.6 billion yen)

Cumulative total of aid in this area excluding the above-mentioned projects: 195.1 billion yen
Seaports

Qinhuangdao Port Expansion Project (67.4 billion yen)
Qingdao Port Expansion Project (59.7 billion yen)
Huanghua Port Construction Project (15.4 billion yen)
Shenzhen Dapeng Bay Yantian Port 1st Phase Construction Project (14.7 billion yen)
Dalian Port Dayao Bay 1st Phase Construction Project (6.7 billion yen)

Cumulative total of aid in this area excluding the above-mentioned projects: 272.6 billion yen

Power Stations

Tianshengqiao Hydroelectric Power Project (118.0 billion yen)
Jiangxi Jiujiang Thermal Power Plant Construction Project (29.6 billion yen)
Wuqiangxi Dam Construction Project (25.2 billion yen)
Shanhe Thermal Power Plant Construction Project (24.6 billion yen)
Beijing Shisanling Pumped Storage Power Station Construction Project (13.0 billion yen)

Cumulative total of aid in this area excluding the above-mentioned projects: 488.2 billion yen
Fertilizer Plants

Weihe Chemical Fertilizer Plant Construction Project (26.9 billion yen)
Inner Mongolia Chemical Fertilizer Construction Project (21.4 billion yen)
Jiujiang Chemical Fertilizer Plant Construction Project (21.4 billion yen)

Cumulative total of aid in this area excluding the above-mentioned projects: 106.3 billion yen
Steel Plants

Shanghai Baoshan Infrastructure Improvement Project (31.0 billion yen)

Environment Protection
Prevention of Air Pollution
Environment Model City Project (Guiyang, Chongqing, Dalian) (30.7 billion yen)
Forestation: Ningxia Afforestation and Vegetation Cover Project (8.0 billion yen)
Sewage System
Xiang River Basin Hunan Environment Improvement Project (3.1 billion yen)
Beijing Sewage Treatment Plant Construction Project (2.6 billion yen)
Cumulative total of aid in this area excluding the above-mentioned projects: 857.8 billion yen

Human Resources Development Projects
Inland Higher Education Project (88.8 billion yen)
Infrastructure Projects in Medical and Environmental Areas
The Project for Construction of the China-Japan Friendship Hospital (Grant aid: 16.430 billion yen)
The Project for Construction of the China-Japan Friendship Environment Protection Center (Grant aid: 10.499 billion yen / Technical cooperation: 1.997 billion yen)

Well - even after all that - from 1979 - Senkaku conflict still happens in 2010-11!! What a great example of how economic cooperation encourages all kinds of cooperation and giving up of imperialist ambitions.

[devesh]

it will open up India's NE to the rest of India like never before and integrate it to the mainland like nothing else....

are you being paid by Beijing to come up with this rhetoric??? now NE is not mainland anymore! some separate entity? this is classic PRC military rhetoric. so, now apparently, NE is not "mainland." the "mainland" officially ends with WB's border with BD???

you are cloaking your words with cool stuff like integration, economic development, cooperation structures, etc etc; all the while propagating subtle propaganda that tries to reinforce age old Chicom propaganda.

i can see it now clearly. people like you officially enter into the textbooks that NE was different from mainland and was never quite integrated. next thing you know, chicoms start using this as official history of "Southern Tibet" or whatever nonsense...of course, they had planned for this to happen long ago, but they need "authentic Indians" to "create" the history first. then they can conveniently say that they are simply saying what the Indians themselves are saying......talk about a fifth column

[RamaY]

If I may digress for a bit - I believe the word "secular" is an invention that was made in a world in which a religion (Christianity) dominated. The absence/removal of the shadow of Christian dogma was called "secular". Such a concept carried meaning in society that was submerged in religion and needed a space to come up for a breath of air.

But when you have a society that was not initially drowned in the tight strictures of monotheistic religion, the concept of secular cannot arise de novo. Hence no Indian origin word exists. And in the absence of reformation in Islam of the type seen by the Christian church, that concept did not exist for Islam either. Just a guess.

Thanks Shivji.

I have to re-learn how to write a convincing point

When I said the same thing it sounded so bad, it lead to the birth of off-topic thread (is it that bad an outcome?).

Naren-ji - please make a note.

[ramana]

The dilemma of Mahesh Bhatt of living as a secular Hindu with an inner identity is the same dilemma that the fake seculars in India have. They are without Church(secular) and living in Hindu mileu and hence the urge for inner Pakistaniyat in their attacks on other minding their business. They grudge the others for not being like them.

[Muppalla]

Discussion about Mahesh Bhatt and his types is real waste of time. He does not even belong to pseudo seculars or WWK types. The secular brigade and WKKs have at least some kind of beliefs due to their DIEness.

Mahesh Bhatt belongs to a category of wife swappers, affairs with daughters or even worse (sorry for being blunt). On top that they develop guilt of what they did and cannot hide the guilt and in the process they try to tell some "art-full" story. The love stories that he makes with a lot of copying from Hollywood etc and some pseudo-biographies about film stars of his times are all about legitemizing/vomiting the personal-guilt. This promiscuosness makes them classified as extra-ultra-liberal like in west and for being liberal they have to allign with secular agenda. I am sure if there a serious gay rights movement he will lend his hand to that as well.

That is all Mahesh Bhatt and secularism connection.

[lakshmikanth]

potential IED-Mubarak deleted....

[ramana]

Those GDF folks were trying to trap you to plant this IED here. There were discussions on languages and they thought yours would add to the mix.