Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Sagar G
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

Brando wrote:And yet, India spends $20 billion on MRCA, another $30 billion on PAK-FA with HAL offering its expertise in "screwdriver technology" ?
Surely all this is HAL's fault only. GOI and IAF are only puppets in the hands of mighty HAL.

Brando wrote:Isn't it true that a HAL made Su-30 is more expensive than ones bought from Russia ??
Show me numbers.
Brando wrote:I know you're trying to be clever but unfortunately the "facts" don't support your attempts at sarcasm. The basic fallacy suffered by many such HAL zindabad types is equating a domestic aerospace sector with a single entity - HAL. A HAL or bust approach!?

Even China - a Communist state with state capitalism has put its eggs in many baskets with nearly 5 large aviation companies working in tandem. In the 21st century, a bloated public sector enterprise with no competition or accountability is an obscene luxury that a third world country cannot afford. With India's demands for aerospace products so high and with it only likely to keep going up, it makes no sense to let HAL hold India hostage with its parasitic monopoly. Let them compete on a fair playing field and then I will entertain notions as to their "worth". So far the tens of billions in orders, equipment and manpower the Indian tax payer has sunk into that have brought scant rewards.
Yeah you are absolutely right bad policy making is also HAL's fault and as you have also "proved" that GOI and IAF are HAL's mere puppets hence everything wrong with Indian aerospace is HAL's fault only and hence should be shut down with immediate effect, such an action will immediately boost India's aerospace sector and India will become no.1 in the field in just the blink of an eye.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Brando »

Sagar G wrote: Yeah and buying fighter jets with strings attached undoubtedly boosts the preparedness of IAF as was seen during Kargil.
What strings were attacked to the Mirage 2000 used in the Kargil war or the Mig-21 that was shot down or the Mig-27 that had engine trouble ?

Did the IAF stop HAL from building comparable aircraft to the Mirage 2000 / Mig-27 to give IAF any "domestic" options ? Did HAL build a whole wing of UAVs to offer the IAF abilities it had to go to Israel to get ?
Sagar G wrote: The issues facing IJT is being looked into and will be overcome there is no evidence which suggests otherwise
Is there any evidence to prove that HAL will "overcome" the "issues" ?? Past performance in overcoming similar problems perhaps ??
Sagar G wrote: The ******** child treatment given to LCA was also HAL's fault ???
There is NOBODY more keen on the LCA's success than the IAF - after all while the HAL is happily relaxing in Benguluru with their pensions and their chai, it is IAF pilots who will have to risk their lives everyday flying the LCA - not HAL employees who really have nothing on the line as they will get their pensions regardless.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Sagar G wrote:The issues facing IJT is being looked into and will be overcome there is no evidence which suggests otherwise
You have not substantiated with any facts / data or timeline which has always been your minimum requirement which could have have reassured people with limited knowledge. Anyway i take your words and wish HAL to come out with a reliable IJT quick. HAL is doing its job with whatever capabilities it has developed in its long history and against all odds as has been suggested. Which is fine.
Now the issue is we have pretty good aerospace requirement and HAL is the sole manufacturer in India. If we look into the ship building industry in India we have some really big ship builders like
Cochin Shipyard
Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers
Goa Shipyard Limited
Mazagon Dock Limited
Pipavav Shipyard
Most of them specializing in different categories.
Even in other countries there are multiple companies in aerospace LM/Boeing , Su/Mig etc.
With the growing aerospace need in India , it is just the right time to lay the foundation for at least 3 other companies apart from HAL focused on specific area :
1. Commercial/Transport aircraft
2. Helos (all type)
3. trainers /UAVs

with HAL's focused only on Fighter aircraft and UCAVs

All the above having responsibility to meet IAF's need , innovation and exports and future product development.
Ownership can be public/private JVs. Government control can only be to the extent that our security requirements are never compromised.

Point is if ISRO can think of allowing complete manufacture of PSLV to private company then other's should also at least try to think on similar lines
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Brando wrote:What strings were attacked to the Mirage 2000 used in the Kargil war or the Mig-21 that was shot down or the Mig-27 that had engine trouble ?
GOI running to France for getting green flag to do jugaad was HAL conspiracy onlee I guess.
Brando wrote:Did the IAF stop HAL from building comparable aircraft to the Mirage 2000 / Mig-27 to give IAF any "domestic" options ?
Did IAF ask or support HAL wholeheartedly in asking for a "domestic option" ???

Brando wrote:Did HAL build a whole wing of UAVs to offer the IAF abilities it had to go to Israel to get ?
Did IAF fund any research programme to achieve the said goals ???
Brando wrote:Is there any evidence to prove that HAL will "overcome" the "issues" ??
There isn't any that suggests that it won't and in multiple articles it has been said that HAL is looking into the problems seriously.
Brando wrote:Past performance in overcoming similar problems perhaps ??
Did IAF support any such "past programmes" that HAL will develop such capabilities ??? Or do you think that R&D is like 2 min noodles only ???
Brando wrote:There is NOBODY more keen on the LCA's success than the IAF -
:rotfl:

From CHALLENGES IN DESIGN TO DEPLOYMENT CRITICAL LESSONS FROM THE D&D OF LCA by KA Muthana Air Commodore

Customer Involvement During the design and development process itself, it is vital that comprehensive knowledge of aviation in general and military aviation in particular is made available to the program. Scientists and design engineers do not have that knowledge. The Indian Air Force is the only repository of comprehensive military aviation knowledge in this country. Either its expertise was not sought or it was denied. Also we probably have the only aviation companies in the world that do not have aviators embedded into design teams. As a result, while the designers concentrated on getting the technology airborne, the design necessities of turning the aircraft into a maintainable, deployable and employable weapon platform were missed to a large extent. Originally a reluctant customer, the Indian Air Force involved itself sufficiently only after contracting for supply of the aircraft in 2006. It was late in the program and hundreds of ‘Requests for Action’ had to be raised in order to retrieve the situation to some extent, but this lead to time and cost overruns.


So much so for keenness :roll:
Brando wrote:after all while the HAL is happily relaxing in Benguluru with their pensions and their chai, it is IAF pilots who will have to risk their lives everyday flying the LCA - not HAL employees who really have nothing on the line as they will get their pensions regardless.
Ohh please keep such melodrama for some saas bahu thread.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Sagar G wrote: Surely all this is HAL's fault only. GOI and IAF are only puppets in the hands of mighty HAL.
Of course not! HAL is pure as the driven snow! How can HAL EVER be at fault ?? Even when IAF pilots fall out of the sky in that rickety bucket HTT-34, HAL cannot be blamed for the the failure of engines or sudden shut off of fuel- its not like HAL told the engine to fail right? :roll:
Sagar G wrote: Show me numbers.
I'm talking about the well know controversy over the new 42 Su30MKI to be produced by HAL costing $100+/unit while direct acquisition cost $40 million/unit.
Sagar G wrote: Yeah you are absolutely right bad policy making is also HAL's fault and as you have also "proved" that GOI and IAF are HAL's mere puppets hence everything wrong with Indian aerospace is HAL's fault only and hence should be shut down with immediate effect, such an action will immediately boost India's aerospace sector and India will become no.1 in the field in just the blink of an eye.
Yes, yes we all know how "innocent" HAL is.

How do you say "monopoly" in kannada? Bad policy is hardly made in a vacuum. It stems from bad advise and business interests that would have it so.

Perhaps with your deep insight into the IAF, HAL and Indian aerospace sector you explain how HAL which has so far been unable to deliver Su30MKI in sufficient numbers due to its limited production line despite showing profits every year has somehow been guaranteed MRCA orders as well ?? HAL fails upwards apparently because it can do no wrong! Good thing though, apparently even the GoI is keen to offload some equity in HAL in 2013 and why not, selling a monopoly is not a hardly bad business.

The real question is - where do I get the HAL Kool Aid ??
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:You have not substantiated with any facts / data or timeline which has always been your minimum requirement which could have have reassured people with limited knowledge. Anyway i take your words and wish HAL to come out with a reliable IJT quick.
I did not give fact/data because it has already been posted in another thread so I assumed that people here would have read that but nobody here seems to be serious about even trying to understand the situation or hear the other guy out instead of that jeering is the favourite thing here it seems. Nevertheless you don't have to take my word, from the R&D thread
7.What about the project to build an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) which has been delayed for 13 years already.

Ans:The IJT project of HAL is presently in at an advanced stage of development. Two prototype aircraft and three Limited Series production aircraft are being flight tested towards obtaining IOC. The design modifications have been made on IJT and flight testing has recommenced since February 2012.

I do feel that the loss of any aircraft needs to be avoided, however, such incidents of loss of prototypes have occurred in many such development programs undertaken in other countries as well. We have faced major delays in getting the new Russian engines for IJT. These issues are being sorted out.

HAL is making all out efforts to achieve the IOC as quickly as possible. The project is being closely monitored to ensure that any support / decisions required are given in a fast track mode. More than 600 flights have been completed so far. However, considering the number of test flights that need to be completed, the IOC is expected during the second half of 2013.
dhiraj wrote:Point is if ISRO can think of allowing complete manufacture of PSLV to private company then other's should also at least try to think on similar lines
:roll:
8. The indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft has more or less remained a pipe dream. It was supposed to reach an indigenisation level of 50-55 per cent in Phase IV of the delivery schedule. Your comments

Ans:The 1st phase-IV Su-30 aircraft was delivered in the fiscal 2010-11. The Transfer of Technology as planned in each of the four Phases has been completed. The level of indigenization has now exceeded 50%. In fact, we signed a contract for 42 numbers of Su-30 MKI frontline Fighter Aircraft with the Ministry of Defence and Russian firm Rosoboronexport in New Delhi on December 24, 2012. HAL's total responsibility for this supersonic multirole aircraft has now gone up to 222. This will further boost our confidence and operations as we have already delivered 119 Su-30 aircraft to the Air Force. The Su-30 MKI project provides solid platform to indigenous manufacturing and technical competence creating hundreds of direct and indirect jobs. HAL's hand-holding with private entrepreneurs has also ensured creation of strong infrastructure and quality avionics products. Today, 157 Indian vendors are involved in providing 13,350 components of the aircraft while another 19,450 components are manufactured at HAL's Nasik and Koraput Divisions.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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^^^^^^^^^
Point is why does HAL have to hear abuses for things like IJT when it is working on fighters and 5th gen domain. So delegating other projects completely to other vendors will ensure that it could focus on other important stuffs and also less questions for them to answer :wink:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Brando wrote:Of course not! HAL is pure as the driven snow! How can HAL EVER be at fault ?? Even when IAF pilots fall out of the sky in that rickety bucket HTT-34, HAL cannot be blamed for the the failure of engines or sudden shut off of fuel- its not like HAL told the engine to fail right? :roll:
IAF pilots also fall off from the sky from the flying coffin named MiG-21 didn't hear you :(( about MiG.
Brando wrote:I'm talking about the well know controversy over the new 42 Su30MKI to be produced by HAL costing $100+/unit while direct acquisition cost $40 million/unit.
I said show me numbers i.e. links showing whether we are paying that much or not and if so then what is the reason.
Brando wrote:Perhaps with your deep insight into the IAF, HAL and Indian aerospace sector you explain how HAL which has so far been unable to deliver Su30MKI in sufficient numbers due to its limited production line despite showing profits every year has somehow been guaranteed MRCA orders as well ??
The IAF doesn't seem to be :(( about the alleged inability to deliver the Su 30 MKI in no.'s and if you are so smart then why don't you show us a competitor of HAL which we have at this point of time who can do the same job as HAL has been tasked to.
Brando wrote:The real question is - where do I get the HAL Kool Aid ??
Why having production issues ???
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Sagar G wrote: GOI running to France for getting green flag to do jugaad was HAL conspiracy onlee I guess.
HAL sleeping for 4 decades without any in-house development is France's fault ? How was HAL to know it was supposed to actually function as an actual business??
Sagar G wrote: Did IAF ask or support HAL wholeheartedly in asking for a "domestic option" ???
Did HAL ask the IAF or the GoI to support it in any "domestic option" ???
Sagar G wrote: Did IAF fund any research programme to achieve the said goals ???
What is HAL doing with its "profits" it declares in its financial statements ?? Sending them to Pakistan via hawala ?? Does it need an "invitation" to pursue prudent R&D like every other aerospace company in the world ?
Sagar G wrote: There isn't any that suggests that it won't and in multiple articles it has been said that HAL is looking into the problems seriously.
There isn't any evidence that it will either - but sanity tell us to discount the lack of evidence as proof. Multiple articles also claim HAL has failed in many many areas with the CAG repeatedly reprimanding HAL for various issues as well.
Sagar G wrote: Did IAF support any such "past programmes" that HAL will develop such capabilities ??? Or do you think that R&D is like 2 min noodles only ???
Why does IAF need "past" or "present" programs, they aren't failures like HAL. Spare the BS for somebody else - HAL isnt' the only company in the world doing R&D and what R&D they have done isn't ground breaking either and not without extensive support of the GoI, various DRDO laboratories, NAL, foreign companies paid for by GoI, recommended by IAF etc. Lets not devolve into some pitiful who did what farce!
Sagar G wrote: From CHALLENGES IN DESIGN TO DEPLOYMENT CRITICAL LESSONS FROM THE D&D OF LCA by KA Muthana Air Commodore
:rotfl:

As if LCA is purely the result of HAL and not a dozen different DRDO labs, NAL and whole bunch of other stakeholders most notable the ADA ?

So in your book the IAF should be eager to fly a death trap that doesn't meet its requirements ?
Sagar G wrote: Ohh please keep such melodrama for some saas bahu thread.
Happily, when you stop peddling your "saas bahu" drama for us about "poor HAL" and "mean IAF/GoI". :roll:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:^^^^^^^^^
Point is why does HAL have to hear abuses for things like IJT when it is working on fighters and 5th gen domain. So delegating other projects completely to other vendors will ensure that it could focus on other important stuffs and also less questions for them to answer :wink:
That is dependent upon the maturity that your pvt. industry has achieved. What do you think that any tom,dick harry from the pvt. industry can be picked and given the task to produce aerospace grade units ??? It's a high precision industry and it requires a lot of investment before any pvt. abdul can claim to be capable of producing any aerospace grade stuff. Beside HAL does hand holding in the initial stages by providing training to the interested parties. The inability of India to come up with another aerospace house is not HAL's fault but that of our decision makers. Even if you accuse that HAL torpedoed any such move then why didn't GOI reign in on HAL ???
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Brando »

Sagar G wrote:IAF pilots also fall off from the sky from the flying coffin named MiG-21 didn't hear you :(( about MiG.
Yes, I heard that they were produce by HAL.
Sagar G wrote: I said show me numbers i.e. links showing whether we are paying that much or not and if so then what is the reason.
How can I show you "numbers" when even the Defense Minister has not released the numbers to Parliament ?? As to the original article :
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ai ... ar_1424437
Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
Sagar G wrote: The IAF doesn't seem to be :(( about the alleged inability to deliver the Su 30 MKI in no.'s and if you are so smart then why don't you show us a competitor of HAL which we have at this point of time who can do the same job as HAL has been tasked to.
The IAF has made its views plainly clear - http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... ts_1736149
The fact that you choose to ignore it is a different matter altogether.
Sick of HAL back in 2011 - the IAF has turned to the Pvt.sector - http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... or/448477/
As to the "job" HAL has been tasked to do - that is a answer I would like to know because clearly producing aircraft reliably and in sufficient quantities despite being a monopoly doesn't seem to be HAL's "job". But if you mean a competent aircraft manufacturer in any other part of the civilized world there are too many examples to list here.
Sagar G wrote:
Brando wrote:The real question is - where do I get the HAL Kool Aid ??
Why having production issues ???
Yes, apparently you have a "monopoly".
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Brando wrote:HAL sleeping for 4 decades without any in-house development is France's fault ? How was HAL to know it was supposed to actually function as an actual business??
Ok so now HAL is an autonomous body which can take decisions free from red tapism about what it can do or not. What other pearls of wisdom do you have ???
Brando wrote:Did HAL ask the IAF or the GoI to support it in any "domestic option" ???
HTT-35 why didn't IAF support it ???
Brando wrote:What is HAL doing with its "profits" it declares in its financial statements ?? Sending them to Pakistan via hawala ?? Does it need an "invitation" to pursue prudent R&D like every other aerospace company in the world ?
HAL is PSU under MoD so making an == with other aerospace company in the world shows your ignorance about HAL.
Brando wrote:There isn't any evidence that it will either - but sanity tell us to discount the lack of evidence as proof. Multiple articles also claim HAL has failed in many many areas with the CAG repeatedly reprimanding HAL for various issues as well.
CAG has reprimanded many other organizations as well including our defence forces so by your logic they should be shut down as well.
Brando wrote:Why does IAF need "past" or "present" programs, they aren't failures like HAL. Spare the BS for somebody else - HAL isnt' the only company in the world doing R&D and what R&D they have done isn't ground breaking either and not without extensive support of the GoI, various DRDO laboratories, NAL, foreign companies paid for by GoI, recommended by IAF etc.
To do ground breaking research one needs a solid technical/knowledge base upon which the ground breaking research can step on, with that being absent in India it is only a fool who will expect HAL to deliver ground breaking research and the thing that you say about DRDO, NAL goes both ways.
Brando wrote:Lets not devolve into some pitiful who did what farce!
Look who is talking :lol:
Brando wrote:rotfl:

As if LCA is purely the result of HAL and not a dozen different DRDO labs, NAL and whole bunch of other stakeholders most notable the ADA ?
Ahhh change of tone when pointed out that IAF is also at fault, nice.
Brando wrote:So in your book the IAF should be eager to fly a death trap that doesn't meet its requirements ?
Nope but the parameters to decide death traps should be same whether it is an Indian or foreign made aircraft.
Brando wrote:Happily, when you stop peddling your "saas bahu" drama for us about "poor HAL" and "mean IAF/GoI". :roll:
That was in reply to your :(( :(( about HAL and associated :(( :(( for shutting it down. So before accusing others of peddling something go look in the mirror.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Brando wrote:Yes, I heard that they were produce by HAL.
Under license from MiG.
Brando wrote:How can I show you "numbers" when even the Defense Minister has not released the numbers to Parliament ??
Then don't make claims.
Brando wrote:As to the original article :

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ai ... ar_1424437
Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
The reason behind this price is ???
Brando wrote:The IAF has made its views plainly clear - http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... ts_1736149
The link talks about indigenous projects not Su 30 MKI about which you raised the flag.
Brando wrote:The fact that you choose to ignore it is a different matter altogether.
The fact that you don't read your own links in your zeal to push your point is a very funny matter altogether.

Brando wrote:Sick of HAL back in 2011 - the IAF has turned to the Pvt.sector - http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... or/448477/
Lifafa shook-law nevertheless from the headline itself it is clear the problem that HAL is facing " overloaded ".
Brando wrote:But if you mean a competent aircraft manufacturer in any other part of the civilized world there are too many examples to list here.
Not in other parts of the world in India, show me a competitor which is capable of taking the burden of HAL.
Brando wrote:Yes, apparently you have a "monopoly".
You don't even understand the idioms that you use. :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Sagar G wrote:That is dependent upon the maturity that your pvt. industry has achieved. What do you think that any tom,dick harry from the pvt. industry can be picked and given the task to produce aerospace grade units ??? It's a high precision industry and it requires a lot of investment before any pvt. abdul can claim to be capable of producing any aerospace grade stuff
So everytime HAL gets the opportunity and even for MMRCA , MOD ensured that HAL is the lead integrator, and this has been going on for the last 40 years and even then
Sagar G wrote:HAL is looking into the problems seriously.
and just to add , there could be conspiracy behind this.
Honestly with HAL's past record and current state of affairs (more specific fighters and trainers) defending it is like a PAF pilot stating that JF 17 is a true blue 4.5 gen fighter :wink:
What does it want every time a ready made assembly line for license manufacturing fighter aircraft thanks to a Government funded defence deal.
The moment this is not available HAL finds going tough.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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dhiraj wrote:So everytime HAL gets the opportunity and even for MMRCA , MOD ensured that HAL is the lead integrator, and this has been going on for the last 40 years and even then
Exactly "MoD ensured" is the word to focus at because GOI has decided to be a lazy ass that's why HAL also has become one, by saying so I am not absolving HAL of anything but this thing has to be kept in mind that for any organization to succeed it must have the backing of a supportive ecosystem which India yet lacks. We have had successes in various fields but they haven't been enough to brand India as a technological power. We still have a long way to go and every arm of the system needs to push in. Jeering HAL is not going to achieve anything.
dhiraj wrote:and just to add , there could be conspiracy behind this.
Let's not assume anything but the point is that this is R&D and delays have to be accepted and moved forward instead of being in a constant :(( mode about it.

dhiraj wrote:Honestly with HAL's past record and current state of affairs (more specific fighters and trainers) defending it is like a PAF pilot stating that JF 17 is a true blue 4.5 gen fighter :wink:
Not defending but trying to see both sides of the coin before crucifying anyone.

dhiraj wrote:What does it want every time a ready made assembly line for license manufacturing fighter aircraft thanks to a Government funded defence deal.
The moment this is not available HAL finds going tough.
What do you mean to say that all these years HAL has asked IAF to go for this and that plane so as to keep the production lines going ??? It would be wise to think before posting.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Today, 157 Indian vendors are involved in providing 13,350 components of the aircraft while another 19,450 components are manufactured at HAL's Nasik and Koraput Divisions.
This is a typical example of self serving obfuscating detail concealing that HAL is basically a screw driver assembler. For instance TATA also makes around 6000 components of Sikorsky Helicopter inspite of being only couple of years into business with no orders from the Govt. Most of the components would be low tech items like rivets.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Sagar G wrote:What do you mean to say that all these years HAL has asked IAF to go for this and that plane so as to keep the production lines going ???
No, what i meant was that HAL is in a unique position that all the outstanding fighters that IAF selects and the Govt. funds by default becomes available to it (without any sweat and perspiration) for screw driving in an assembly line made in consultation and support of the OEM.
Sagar G wrote:R&D and delays have to be accepted and moved forward instead of being in a constant mode about it
40 years experience in aircraft manufacturing ke baad bhi ek IJT aur basic trainer ke liye bhi HAL ne humein kya diya Taareekh pe Taareekh pe Taareekh :wink:
Dr. Watson , Mogambo bahut dukhi hua (just saw Mr. India again yesterday) :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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vic wrote:
Today, 157 Indian vendors are involved in providing 13,350 components of the aircraft while another 19,450 components are manufactured at HAL's Nasik and Koraput Divisions.
This is a typical example of self serving obfuscating detail concealing that HAL is basically a screw driver assembler. For instance TATA also makes around 6000 components of Sikorsky Helicopter inspite of being only couple of years into business with no orders from the Govt. Most of the components would be low tech items like rivets.
Might be true but then this is what you get from foreign aircraft manufacturers in the name of "ToT" or the very recent "Deep ToT".
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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dhiraj wrote:No, what i meant was that HAL is in a unique position that all the outstanding fighters that IAF selects and the Govt. funds by default becomes available to it (without any sweat and perspiration) for screw driving in an assembly line made in consultation and support of the OEM.
I ask you as well show me any other alternative that we have at this point of time other than HAL.
dhiraj wrote:40 years experience in aircraft manufacturing ke baad bhi ek IJT aur basic trainer ke liye bhi HAL ne humein kya diya Taareekh pe Taareekh pe Taareekh :wink:
Why don't you educate us as to where did HAL f*ck up in case of IJT ?? What design issues it is facing ?? What management issues is it facing ?? That will add more value to this tread and help us better understand the problem in hand instead of your bollywood dialogues.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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HAL achieves Initial Operational Clearance for advanced light helicopter.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on Sunday achieved the Initial Operational Clearance for its Advanced Light Helicopter Mk-IV, the Army Version of ‘Rudra’

K Tamilmani, CEO, Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), presented the certificate to the company, a HAL release said.

“The occasion gives us the confidence. It is a proud moment for the country and boosts our indigenous activities,” HAL Chairman R K Tyagi said.

The occasion marks HAL’s entry into the elite group of a few industries in the world which design, develop, manufacture and certify a helicopter as weapons system to international standards, he said.

Tamilmani pointed out that the potential for helicopter ‘remains forever’ in India and the country has the ability to meet technical challenges on this front.

HAL MD (Helicopter Division) P Soundara Rajan said integration of multiple weapons systems on the helicopter is a complex assignment.

“In this particular case, it involved four major groups of systems and weapons, involving eight countries Israel, France, Belgium, South Africa, Germany, Italy, USA and India.”

“Nearly 23 km of cables had to be laid and hundreds of hours of flight and ground tests were carried out,” he added.
rohitvats
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by rohitvats »

<SELF-DELETED >
rohitvats
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Sagar G wrote:<SNIP> Look at the pride in the faces of IAF afsars, I cannot imagine the same look had it been an SDRE made aircraft. They wouldn't even have posed for a photo op. infront of a dirty poor SDRE plane.<SNIP>
MODS: I have reported the post which contains the above comment from the poster.

While there are various things wrong with the Services, nothing deserves comments like above from posters on BRF. Pillorying the Services for their screw-ups is one thing - and God know I've been amongst the most vocal critics of IA on the Arjun saga and then some more. But comments like above are more drivel and add nothing to the debate. One cannot demean the Services and men/women who wear those uniforms.

I think it is time that some clear-cut guidelines are put out on the subject because honestly, it is becoming tiresome to get into slug-fest on this topic time and again. Comments like above, if they go unchecked, only pollute the environment. And for me personally, a reason to come less on BRF and participate in debate, if any.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Karan M »

^^ He was being sarcastic, that entire post is dripping with it, to mock the usual attacks on HAL*. Don't think he actually meant that IAF guys behave that way. The follow on posts as well, they too are pretty sarcastic and not meant to be taken too seriously - hindoo terrorists etc.

*Talking about HAL not investing in R&D, when enough literature exists to note HAL asked for it repeatedly but was rebuffed in the 80's, eg a Jaguar FBW testbed
*Another poster makes the vapid claim that everything in Su-30MKI by HAL is low end, without a shred of evidence and completely ignoring the fact that both complex aerostructures and mechanical assemblies are being made by HAL for the MKI, publicly known to anyone who tracks the program at public events

Anyways, a perfect example of this:
sarchasm :. 1. (n.) The abyss between the creator of witticisms and the intended recipient who does not find the humor in it.
Perhaps a few smilies to show he was being facetious would have helped.

Anyways, the discussion is the usual that repeats again and again on the subject. You have a valid point that "us versus them" whether it be from one side or the other does not help.

Every x days somebody comes along and kicks it off. Then somebody reacts. Others get upset, and so it continues.

Lets get back on topic guys. We can't have you one of the detail oriented posters on the site get upset when a lot of info will be released in the coming few days for all the defence buffs here and you have to sit and analyze it all for us. :)

BTW, HAL is scheduled to make a significant talk on the ALH on the Aero India seminar series starting tomorrow. It should go into detail regarding what exactly HAL did. And since its by an ex services person, hopefully this us versus them stuff shouldnt come up. And the pointless uber special crowd out to tell us SDREs of the worthlessness of HAL/Indian orgs can also take a break (for that day at least). Finally it should also tell of how tough the IAF/IA/IN requirements were and how the ALH had to meet these impossible requirements (in some way, our requirements for the ALH match the JSF saga, three services reconciling differing requirements doesnt happen).

Coming back to the topic. One of the important grouses against the LCA was lack of ground support equipment, on which there is a talk at the seminar.

Guess what, if we see the statements by PS Sub of ADA on the latest LSP, he makes it clear that adequate GSE has now been provided for the Tejas based on IAF feedback.

Its heartening to see that the IAF, ADA & HAL (plus all the partners) are working in synch to identify and solve problems quickly.

Another NAL report mentions significant progress made on Wake Penetration Testing - that's one of the IAF's requirements for IOC-2 due by this year.

Interestingly, regarding the AoA stuff - just got to know, that the spin parachute stuff won't occur. At a public event some months back, ADA/HAL mentioned they have been advised by BAe to iteratively simulate, test, validate and open up the envelope to 26 degrees (from current 22-24) and it should be doable since the LCA is designed decently enough to achieve the same.

So IOC and FOC seem well within reach.

MK-2 also appears to be sensibly conservative with engine improvement, avionics +, and maintainability tweaks. That too should allow for a quick development cycle.

Hope we can now return on topic versus blue on blue...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by suryag »

KAtarei ji the said paper which talks about better Ground Support is in present continuous tense and is by Air Cmde Muthanna, so dont know if it has been fixed or if it has been just noticed. Also he had brought up issues with change request logging. He also mentioned that certification process can be sped up and maintenance procedures need to be standardised from all the available drawings.

Btw i read through GP.Capt Unni's paper and looks like MBB was taking us for a ride on the ALH. He clearly states that most of the work had to be redone from scratch. Folks please try and attend the info sessions somehow and have coordinated questions for these people. We can never get hold of these people in open and this is a golden opportunity.

Unni garu if possible please record your talk and put it out for us
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Karan M »

suryag wrote:KAtarei ji the said paper which talks about better Ground Support is in present continuous tense and is by Air Cmde Muthanna, so dont know if it has been fixed or if it has been just noticed.
Not Katare, And no ji please.

I have brought this up before - remember, everything in these public papers etc unless clearly marked out & mentioned as such is from previous data and experiences and often overlaps old problems and current ones! Often, real world overtakes it and solution is put into nplace. Mr Muthanna is mentioning all the challenges with the program in brief, and not mentioning all the solutions and by when, since it would become a thesis.
So we have to track all news..

So, if you are going for IOC, these are things that will be addressed. And as we see PS Sub's comment: Jan 25,2013

http://newindianexpress.com/states/karn ... 434826.ece
The limited series production (LSP-8) version of India’s Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, is said to have incorporated all features sought by the Indian Air Force (IAF), so that it qualifies for the initial operational clearance (IOC).

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) head P S Subramaniam told Express that Tejas LSP-8, the last aircraft from the test flightline, is tailor-made to suite pilot’s needs.

“All designs are final. All systems are as per the final IOC standards and have matured with the aircraft,” he added.

The ADA head said building of LSP-8 aircraft, its first flights and subsequent tests will be the last stepping stone towards the programme entering the series production phase. The IAF has placed an initial order of 20 Tejas.

According to Subramaniam it has pressure-refueling capabilities. Meaning the entire aircraft the LSP-8 can be filled with fuel in just 5-6 minutes as against the 30-minutes taken for gravity filling.

“Tejas LSP-8 is an all-weather, day and night capability fighter and with very maintenance-friendly features. It is an aircraft built based on the needs expressed by test pilots,” he said.

He said the pilot-vehicle interface features supported by avionics software are excellent in LSP-8 and as desired by the users.

“The new aircraft is very robust with reliable flight control system. The aircraft has good compatibility with ground support and ground-handling equipment. I can now confidentially say that all that is required for an aircraft to get inducted into the Service is built into LSP-8,” Subramaniam said.
Net - read it in context. These were all the issues brought up before LCA could be given IOC, and as such being high priority tasks, were handled.
Also he had brought up issues with change request logging. He also mentioned that certification process can be sped up and maintenance procedures need to be standardised from all the available drawings.
These too can be achieved and are not deal braking. Generally, these are the less glamorous docu heavy jobs scientists run from and as a result of which tend to get pushed out. Nowadays, there are several firms which help in such aspects. But as IAF has highlighted it, it will be done, as was done even the MKI.


Btw i read through GP.Capt Unni's paper and looks like MBB was taking us for a ride on the ALH. He clearly states that most of the work had to be redone from scratch. Folks please try and attend the info sessions somehow and have coordinated questions for these people. We can never get hold of these people in open and this is a golden opportunity.

Unni garu if possible please record your talk and put it out for us[/quote]
suryag
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by suryag »

Sorry KaranM ayya(if not ji). The thing is these videshi companies like MBB do lots of clever things when we dont know much about the dev process. I am of the opinion that Snecma-GTRE effort got scuttled when our scientists asked for specific subsystems/knowledge sharing and not entire system and Snecma would have weaseled out as it would have meant access to their crown jewels.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Arav »

shyamd wrote:10 IAF An-32s were parked in Muscat Airport last week. Is this part of the Ukraine deal?
Shyamdji What Ukraine deal? Could you point me to relevant post...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by krishnan »

An-32 upgrade project
suryag
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by suryag »

KaranM garu
Pasting the conclusion from Cmdr Muthanna's paper

CONCLUSION
16. Tejas is a wonderful flying machine. It deserved to be in squadron service years ago. Remedial action on many of the shortcomings commented upon, if implemented even now, will favorably impact timelines for IOC and FOC of the Tejas Mk 1 aircraft. Favorable impact on Tejas Mk 2 and other future programs will be enormous.(KA Muthana)
Place: Bangalore. Air Commodore
Date: 18 Oct 2012.
member_20292
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20292 »

suryag wrote:Sorry KaranM ayya(if not ji).
:)

Yes. karan m saar since the quality of posts is high, we have to give you an honorific title.

Choose;

jee
ji
HRH
right honorable
swami
garu
babuji
anna
appa
ayya
bhaiya
bhai
sir
saar
Lord
Sagar G
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

rohitvats wrote:MODS: I have reported the post which contains the above comment from the poster.
SCORRREEEEEEE :mrgreen: Stumped a heavyweight bakra Oh Yeah :lol:
Karan M wrote:Perhaps a few smilies to show he was being facetious would have helped.
And miss the fun of watching a bakra step on the IED nahhhhh :twisted:
I am grateful to you garu for reading me rightly and batting for me so please accept my sashtang pranam.

Apart from the sarcasm I stand by the criticism of IAF in my more serious posts and have only made an attempt to make people see that fault lies not only with HAL but also with agencies associated with it. Blaming HAL for all the woes of Indian aerospace sector is akin to blaming police for all the malice in our justice system. People must learn to see both sides of the coin before making a view instead of going on a :(( mode each and every time something negative is reported about our indigenous programmes.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by MN Kumar »

There was a Fennec buzzing around this evening. Must have come for the AI-13. Looked in dark colors.
Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

from ajai shukla . looks like we shall have 10 C17 in 2 yrs time with more on order. my prediction is we will order another 2 lots in batches of 5 and start going away (cannibalizing) with the older eighteen(?) IL76 from start of 2015...by 2020 I dont see them around at all.

---
Boeing will deliver the first five C-17s this year, with the next five coming in 2014. India is expected to place a follow-on order for this aircraft, which it needs for quickly reinforcing threatened sectors along the remote, Himalayan, northern border. The C-17 can deliver 74 tonnes of stores to a one-kilometre-long unpaved runway 4,500 kilometres away.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by SagarAg »

Singha wrote:from ajai shukla . looks like we shall have 10 C17 in 2 yrs time with more on order. my prediction is we will order another 2 lots in batches of 5 and start going away (cannibalizing) with the older eighteen(?) IL76 from start of 2015...by 2020 I dont see them around at all.

---
Boeing will deliver the first five C-17s this year, with the next five coming in 2014. India is expected to place a follow-on order for this aircraft, which it needs for quickly reinforcing threatened sectors along the remote, Himalayan, northern border. The C-17 can deliver 74 tonnes of stores to a one-kilometre-long unpaved runway 4,500 kilometres away.
IMHO I don't think so. :!: I think Gajraj are here to stay up till 2030.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by NRao »

For what it is worth, the previous CAS had mentioned 2020 (for IL-76).
member_23694
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_23694 »

Article by our previous Chief about the current state of affairs related to Aerospace , hope it clarifies a few things about our aerospace development
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/clea ... 48485.html
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Vipul »

IAF laments HAL delays in delivery of intermediate trainer.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) continues to grapple with difficulties in training its pilots. While quality basic training will become possible as the Pilatus Aircraft Company delivers the 75 PC-7 Mark II basic trainers that India bought last year for Rs 2,900 crore, the next stage of training remains an issue. IAF officials say the failure of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to develop an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) is now a serious hurdle to training.

HAL has been developing an IJT, called the Sitara, since 1999. The IAF has forked out R&D costs of Rs 600 crore (up from an initial estimate of Rs 180 crore), and assured HAL of an order of 12 prototypes and 73 operational trainers. But, with the IJT delayed by almost a decade and still at least three years from delivery, rookie pilots will continue to train on outdated and inadequate aircraft.

The IAF trains its fighter pilots in three phases. Stage-1 training will now be carried out on the propeller-driven Pilatus PC-7 Mark II. From there, pilots graduate to Stage-2 training on jet aircraft, which is currently carried out on the vintage Kiran Mark I since the IJT Sitara, which was supposed to replace the Kiran long ago, has not been delivered. Finally, pilots carry out Stage-3 training on the vaunted Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), which was acquired in the mid-2000s.

“The IJT has been a very poorly planned programme by HAL and a decade-long delay is unacceptable in a trainer aircraft. Given how much time and money the IAF has already committed, we have to stick with the IJT programme and induct it into service as a Stage-2 trainer,” a top IAF official bitterly complained.

But patience is running out in Vayu Bhawan, the IAF headquarters. A senior air marshal told Business Standard that, if the IJT was not delivered within three years, the IAF would consider using the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II as a Stage-2 trainer, in addition to its primary job as a Stage-1 trainer.

“The Pilatus could also be used for Stage-2 training until the IJT is ready. This could be done using the same aircraft, by putting the trainee pilots through more complex flying exercises,” explains the IAF official.

The IAF brass believes that HAL made a major blunder in deciding to change the IJT’s engine, replacing the French Larzac engine around which the Sitara was designed, with a more powerful AL-55I engine built by Russian engine-maker, NPO-Saturn. In 2005, HAL signed a $350 million contract with Russian defence export agency, Rosoboronexport, to build 250 AL-55I engines under license in Bangalore, with an option for 1000 more. After developing the engine, Moscow insisted on payment of another $64 million.

“HAL should never have gone in for a new engine mid-way, because an aircraft is always designed around its engine. Instead, they should have upgraded the Larzac,” points out a top IAF planner.

Contacted for comments, HAL has not responded. According to engineers involved in the IJT’s development, the testing regime that governs the new Russian engine has delayed the flight-testing of the IJT. This was predictable, since any new engine requires extensive and progressive testing. In this, the Russian certification agency allows the engine to fly only a fixed number of hours, after which the agency examines the engine and then clears it to fly a small number of additional hours. This progressive certification often holds up flight-testing.

Business Standard has followed the IJT Sitara’s development since the early 2000s, on regular visits to HAL. Design began in 1999, and the aircraft flew in 2003, a remarkably quick development process. But then, the engine was changed and problems began. Last year, an IJT prototype crashed, fortunately without loss of life.

HAL has said that it intends to build the IJT in its Kanpur facility, at a cost of about Rs 50 crore per aircraft.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by VinodTK »

Israel seeks major arms deals with India
TEL AVIV, Israel, Feb. 4 (UPI) -- Israel may be on the brink of major defense sales to India following a visit by India's air force commander, Air Marshal Nak Browne.

Military sources say Browne was particularly interested in upgrading India's fleet of Israeli-built unmanned surveillance vehicles and acquiring the advanced missile defense systems that Israel's high-tech defense industry, the most advanced in the Middle East, is developing.
:
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India has been discussing a possible "buy and build" deal involving the Iron Dome system, the only one of four air-defense systems under development to have been tested in combat, for some time.

The Indians also want to produce the system, developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, under license.

Israel's Globes business daily reported in December that the Indians say Israel has agreed to such a sale. But there could be a major hitch because the United States provided much of the financing for Iron Dome's development and the Pentagon may not want the technology transferred to India, even though it's a leading U.S. ally.

India has also expressed interest in Israel's Arrow-2 anti-ballistic missile system manufactured by Israel Aerospace Industries and the Boeing Co. of the United States. But the technology transfer involved could impede any sale since U.S. approval would be required.
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srai
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by srai »

Vipul wrote:IAF laments HAL delays in delivery of intermediate trainer.

...

“HAL should never have gone in for a new engine mid-way, because an aircraft is always designed around its engine. Instead, they should have upgraded the Larzac,” points out a top IAF planner.

...
Rookie mistake. Inexperience of both HAL and the IAF in design and development of aircrafts lead to this poor decision. IMO, they should have just stuck with the Larzac, even if underpowered, to complete the certification process, production of limited series and into squardon service for the Mk.1 variant. In a parallel track, design and development of new Mk.2 airframes with the new AL-55I engine should have commenced.
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