Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Mar 2013 04:46

Please sing this petition and send this email to your friends...

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Wharto ... a/?tJKgneb

Freedom of speech attacked in Wharton Written

by: Kishore Trivedi Updated: Monday, March 4, 2013, 17:45 [IST] Ads by Google New Reverse Mortgage Info President Extends Support Benefits! Calculate Your Reverse Mortgage www.RetireEasy.com Medicare Rate Quotes Compare All Medicare Plans Online In Just

Freedom of speech attacked in Wharton

Read more at: http://news.oneindia.in/feature/2013/fr ... 63456.html

A different kind of terror attack hit India on the evening of March 3, 2013. This was an attack different from the one we witnessed in Hyderabad a few days ago but it was an attack enough to shake the collective conscience of Indians. The victims of this dastardly attack were intellectual freedom, freedom of speech as well as the sensibilities of the people of India. Finding the perpetrators of the attack was not at all difficult. In fact, there was plenty of ‘intelligence reports' predicting the attack. This was neither their first attack nor will it be their last. It is just one minor attack on as a part of their self-created ongoing struggle for ‘truth and justice' for the world at large. No prizes to guess that the event I am talking about is the highly deplorable decision taken by Wharton to cancel Narendra Modi's keynote address at the Wharton India Economic Forum. The masterminds behind this are the Intellectual Taliban of self-seeking 5-star activists, pseudo intellectuals and pseudo secularists who have made lucrative careers out of berating Modi. The news by Wharton, coming after immense freedom from this Intellectual Taliban disappointed me in many ways. First and foremost, it convinced me that the writ of this Taliban runs even in the most reputed institutions, ironically in the land that prides itself as the land of free speech and liberal democratic foundations. When a reputed institution like Wharton (University of Pennsylvania) decides to call an event off, it is clear that such an institution has no right to sit on the high table of reputed world universities. An institution that cannot safeguard another's right to freedom of speech has little right to boast of any kind of excellence, academic or otherwise. Freedom of speech attacked in Wharton Going back to the dark forces that muzzled free speech at Wharton, one can see the consistent pattern in their modus operandi. Take the case of Ania Loomba, the activist who ‘spearheaded' the ‘do not invite Modi to Wharton' bogey. Take a look at whatever is publically visible on Loomba's Facebook profile and you will see a very predictable schedule. In the beginning of the month, she was busy galvanizing protestors to oppose Modi's SRCC speech, which has now gone down in history as one of the most inspiring speeches that left thousands of youngsters mesmerized. A few days later, a large part of her precious time went in protesting Afzal Guru's ‘unfortunate' hanging (if this is unfortunate, I shudder to think what she defines as fortunate?). In addition to periodic outbursts against capitalism she then took the lead role in the latest Intellectual Taliban attack to prevent Modi from addressing students at Wharton. The other major issue is that of free speech. As individuals and groups we are free to disagree with Modi, his views, his politics and his policies but does that merit such activism that denies him a chance to express himself? As Voltaire said, "I may disapprove of what you say but I will defend till death your right to say it." Modi himself is the strongest advocate on the need to have critics. By not willing to listen to Modi, the self styled activists are simply displaying their own paranoia and lack of conviction in their arguments. It shows that they are not willing to debate ideas but only prefer to use arm-twisting tactics to make their shrill voices heard. The arbitrary behavior of Wharton brings the rest of the participants and sponsors to the spotlight- is not high time they rise to the occasion and withdraw their participation from the event? I was very happy to read Gautam Adani and Suresh Prabhu cancel their participation. I wonder what is preventing Montek Singh Ahluwalia, Dilip Cherian, Milind Deora from doing so. Javed Akhtar and Shabana Azmi are among the invitees at the Forum- what is preventing them from withdrawing their names? The entire fiasco brought uncomfortable questions to my mind. If Incredible India is listed as a partner for the event, does the Government of India give its support to the actions of Wharton? How can the Union Government allow a Chief Minister of a state to be treated in this manner by a University? Would things have been the same if Delhi University, Mumbai University would have prevented an American Governor from speaking? The founding fathers of USA dreamt of a land that is the ultimate bastion of free speech and liberal democratic practices. Our founding fathers safeguarded the right to freedom of expression and gave a voice to each and every individual irrespective of caste, creed or religion. It is a crying shame that with the actions of Wharton and the Intellectual Taliban operating in India, George Washington, Jefferson, Mahatma Gandhi and Babasaheb Ambedkar would be turning in their graves! (The views expressed by the author are entirely his own. You can follow the author on Twitter on @KishoreTrivedi1)
Speakers, sponsors should snub Wharton

By Kishore Trivedi on March 4, 2013

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Tags: Wharton India Economic Forum 2013, open letter to WEF sponsors, Narendra modi invitation to Wharton, Freedom of speech, Adani Group

Dear speakers and sponsors of Wharton India Economic Forum 2013,
I am writing this letter with a deep sense of anguish and disappointment. You are aware of the arbitrary manner in which Narendra Modi’s proposed Keynote Address at Wharton India Economic Forum was cancelled, bowing to pressure from vested interest groups. As speakers and sponsors of Wharton India Economic Forum, I urge you not to remain a silent spectator to this brutal assault on freedom of speech and expression in what is seen as a citadel of academic excellence, that too in the land of freedom and liberty.
What has happened with Modi is not about Modi himself. It is an insult to the 1.2 billion people of India. We cannot take away from the fact that Modi is where he is not at the whims and fancies of select individuals but he is there because the people have reposed faith in him. By acting in the manner in which they have, Wharton and the University of Pennsylvania are questioning the democratic right of the people of India to choose their leader, which is by no means pardonable. Mahatma Gandhi had famously said, “Howsoever triumphant untruth may seem to be, it can never prevail against truth.” I am confident that in the case of Mr Modi too, the truth will ultimately prevail.
The second is the issue of freedom of speech. I do not expect all of you to agree with Mr Modi on every count. I am also aware that some of you belong to political parties with views different from those of Mr Modi’s party. However, this is not an issue of politics, nor should it be politicised. When we are on foreign soil, we are not Congressmen or BJP-men or Communists, we are Indians. And when a fellow Indian is denied the right of freedom of speech, it is a cause of immense worry. Please also note that today this has happened with Mr Modi. Tomorrow the same vested interests may bay for your blood or the blood of the organisations you have tirelessly created for years. If that happens, do you want nobody to stand by you and everybody to watch as silent spectators? This is an event that affects our collective self-esteem as the world’s largest democracy and the correct response would be to stand together and resist such tyranny.
I will take this opportunity to remind you that by playing into the hands of the very elements who have orchestrated the withdrawal of invitation to Mr Modi, you are strengthening the hands of anti-India elements. These are the same elements who have never batted an eyelid before berating anything that is either progressive or nationalist. Would you want to be seen as strengthening their hands?
By refusing to participate in this forum, Mr Gautam Adani, an eminent Gujarati, has demonstrated that as a proud son of Gujarat he will not tolerate insults directed at the people of Gujarat, indeed the entire country, and their sensibilities. His action will send a strong message to the world that Gujarat’s achievements and Gujarat’s glory cannot be suppressed. When people of eminence like Mr Adani and Mr Suresh Prabhu extend solidarity to this larger movement for freedom of speech, it has a great positive impact. I feel other sponsors should emulate Mr Gautam Adani and Mr Suresh Prabhu and refuse to participate in such an event.
The Government of India, too, should wake up and take note of these recent happenings. ‘Incredible India’ is listed as a sponsor on the website of Wharton India Economic Forum. It is ironic that Incredible India is sponsoring an event, which is actually insulting India and one of its Chief Ministers who has just secured a third five-year-mandate.
An elected Government does not represent only the ruling party, but it represents the people of India. The National Tricolour, which flies atop all Government buildings, inspires love among all Indians and that feeling is not restricted to those belonging to a specific political party. Political parties might have differences but what binds all is the love for India.
We in India believe in ‘Atithi Devo Bhava’. We treat our guests no less than our gods. It is a known fact that Mr Modi never lobbied or asked Wharton or University of Pennsylvania to invite him. For a man who dwells in the hearts of so many people and addresses events where lakhs of people attend, such forums are hardly relevant. Surely Mr Modi does not need Wharton or the stamp of Wharton to share the virtues of Gujarat’s unique and all-inclusive model of development. The invitation came from Wharton and I leave it to your wisdom to answer if the treatment they have meted out to a guest is called for or not.
Thus, through this letter I would request all the sponsors and speakers to withdraw from all events related to Wharton India Economic Forum 2013 and show your solidarity with free speech and liberal democratic principles. As I said, this is not about an individual but about our nation as a whole. Your small step of cancelling your participation and withdrawing your sponsorship will have a huge impact for generations to come and will reaffirm our collective sense of self-esteem.
Yours sincerely,
(The writer’s Twitter handle is @KishoreTrivedi1)

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Mar 2013 05:03

Theo: I never alleged or implied those were your concerns. I brought it as possible concerns of minorities. I am not sure if all the other sections are for me, anyho I will give my 2 cents (it is probably worth less than 2 cents)

If you want to use the word 'power', then so be it. In democratic politics, every group wants to win elections so that it can influence its ideas onto others and society at a large. Nothing wrong. However, if you use it in conjunction with religion it can be misinterpreted. When you use the words "power", "hindus" etc, if the slippery slope is not arrested then it will eventually lead to 'hindu terror', 'hindus oppressing others' ityadi.

I am sorry if it looks like 'Hindus are baying for Muslim'. Be it aam admi, arm-chair eggsperts on BRF, scholars, NGOs or government authorities - everybody looks at the incidents as "attack on India" onlee. That is the most obvious and first thing. However, the country and individuals have evolved and gone to the subsequent analysis. Who are the people who have continuously been attacking India? It has been Pakistan and Pakistan sponsored groups. How have they been attacking? Using Indian Muslims. And why are the Muslims disgruntled and prone to join these groups? Because they have not been included in the growth, and socially, economically, culturally been kept back. Who has done it? It is Congress because of its omissions and commissions.

On Constitutions, the Constitution deserve respect and admiration. Also we need to give them the credit. However, they spent lots of time in researching and debating Constitutions of other lands, they should have given equal weightage to Indic laws, traditions etc. After all in maasa which worships the written document - Constitution eventually came from the British influence. It incorporates institutions and principles from England; the framers had great English and French influence. Essentially the Western culture is evident in American constitution. That is how they had it. While drafting Constitution, it is admirable to look at other Constitutions (even copy items) and craft something for the country, one has to look at national heritage, values and traditions.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 06 Mar 2013 05:21

Speaking theo logically a confession by NaMo across a well crafted French lattice ornamented door to the direct representative of Heavenly Father namely Pope can only absolve the manufactured atrocities by decree of Soniya.

Sacrosanctum Concilium, 2013 as per Soniatum opus dei

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 06 Mar 2013 05:33

Theo_Fidel wrote: WRT Kundankulam the church very much made a mistake by stepping into a secular issue and I said so at the time. They should not do that. And I have made my displeasure known in my tiny way and the church has visibly apologized and pulled back. Are there abuses still, yes. But the community by and large does not support that role for the church. If they do I'm willing to step out and say the church is wrong for doing so as I did at the time.

Separation of state and religion really just means the state is not religious not so much the other way around. I see churches take on a political role all the time. And really it is hard to avoid in a structured organized religion. Reveled religions are full of social strictures which are implicitly political. At least it requires an enabling political atmosphere to foster those social goals. How could they not take on a political role to achieve social goals? That propagation of the faith, and therefore it's belief systems, is the purpose of a church(or choice of organized religious structure) after all. Beyond that there are instances of egregious overreach too the most recent was probably advocating on behalf of those Italian marines.

The RSS has no clear analogy in the organized religion. It's probably a bit like Parish councils, BCCs or other religious community organizations but with some comparison to a church also; being an association of individuals professing the same faith. The question then is not just about the church but of people who attend church and are members of these parish council type organizations? Does attendance to a religious body with political interests disqualify those people from office? Ultimately that is what the whole is Modi an RSS member comes down to. And from what I have read and heard Parish council types do play a significant political organizational role in places like Kanyakumari.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 05:46

Must watch debate

(I never ask others to watch NDTV but, it is too much to miss this) Manishankar Iyer made an ass of himself...

Watch video: http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/india- ... oor/267399

Firstly I am impressed by Sashi Tharoors position (not just because he agrees with me)

Having said that -
I don't understand why the Indian panelists, BJP or otherwise, tell Mr. Mani and his ilk that Cambridge is the intellectual center that supported and propagated
- slavery
- colonization of other nations
- white supremacy

And the same Britian ruled India and caused famines, Oppressed Indians for a century, partitioned our nation and so on..

and no wonder it's students became ministers in "her majesty's govt" in both UK and in India.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Mar 2013 05:54

Theo_Fidel wrote:SwamyG,

To be fair I never said that about Modi and all this blood bath imagery did not come from me. My point is very limited. Modi has clearly said that he rules by the Indian constitution. I suspect if I met Modi I would like him immensely and we could even be friends. But I also suspect what happened in 2002 did not change him. He is still the old RSS type IMHO.

Theo Sar:

This is a honest question. Can you please elaborate what the "old RSS type" is supposed to mean.

I knew nothing about the RSS when I grew up in India. But now RSS/Sanghi is on the lips of every durbari.

What exactly do you mean by what you wrote above?

What is the source of the information that shaped your opinion?

-------------------------------

WRT Kundankulam the church very much made a mistake by stepping into a secular issue and I said so at the time. They should not do that. And I have made my displeasure known in my tiny way and the church has visibly apologized and pulled back. Are there abuses still, yes. But the community by and large does not support that role for the church. If they do I'm willing to step out and say the church is wrong for doing so as I did at the time.

I am not sure whether you are referring to your church or the entire agitation.

The churches rolled back, after MMS was forced to act, after the Russians read India the riot-act.

The churches know which umbrella shields them and when MMS was forced to stop foreign NGO funding, the church decided to pull-back; assuming they have.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 06 Mar 2013 06:08

RamaY wrote:Must watch debate

(I never ask others to watch NDTV but, it is too much to miss this) Manishankar Iyer made an ass of himself...

`Don't invite the likes of Mani. If you must, limit them to two pegs'

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 759704.cms

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 06 Mar 2013 06:57

VikramS wrote:
-------------------------------

WRT Kundankulam the church very much made a mistake by stepping into a secular issue and I said so at the time. They should not do that. And I have made my displeasure known in my tiny way and the church has visibly apologized and pulled back. Are there abuses still, yes. But the community by and large does not support that role for the church. If they do I'm willing to step out and say the church is wrong for doing so as I did at the time.
I am not sure whether you are referring to your church or the entire agitation.

The churches rolled back, after MMS was forced to act, after the Russians read India the riot-act.

The churches know which umbrella shields them and when MMS was forced to stop foreign NGO funding, the church decided to pull-back; assuming they have.

I dont think the church has rolled back. Only their strategy is.

For example, the new tactic is to internationalze by bringing in Sri Lanka.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sri-l ... t/1082192/

They got a rent-a-night group of around a dozen, going by the name greens for change to protest before srilankan embassy. They have been very carefully published in all major newspapers often by not disclosing the number. Only zee published the figure.
http://zeenews.india.com/news/south-asi ... 33235.html

They are trying to use sri lanka to sling shot the protest in kudankulam. They have started People's Movement against Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant in Sri Lanka on the lines of People's Movement against Nuclear Energy, led by Udaykumar and co in India.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 06 Mar 2013 07:01

RamaY wrote:Must watch debate

(I never ask others to watch NDTV but, it is too much to miss this) Manishankar Iyer made an ass of himself...

Watch video: http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/india- ... oor/267399

Firstly I am impressed by Sashi Tharoors position (not just because he agrees with me)

Having said that -
I don't understand why the Indian panelists, BJP or otherwise, tell Mr. Mani and his ilk that Cambridge is the intellectual center that supported and propagated
- slavery
- colonization of other nations
- white supremacy

And the same Britian ruled India and caused famines, Oppressed Indians for a century, partitioned our nation and so on..

and no wonder it's students became ministers in "her majesty's govt" in both UK and in India.

ST was ok in one aspect about freedom of speech and the wrong done to NaMO.
he tried to look suave and polished but ends flat like a chapathi defending congis.
He cannot do it well as a politican in congi mould.
It was hilarious when talked about rahul baby getting good crowds also and many others etc.

No wonder I feel he is a wasted talent in congi party, defending buffons etc.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2013 07:03

VikramS wrote:Lets start with the US. Santorum won the Republican primary in Lousiana, where the great Bobby "I support teaching Intelligent Design as Science in schools" Jinal is the Governer.

Fantastic video, VikramS ji.... conveys the worst of US-EJism in a 3-min package. 10X times more 'communal' than anything the RSS has ever articulated.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 06 Mar 2013 07:27

MODI: TURNING BLEATERS IN TO BEATERS

“India has decided to uproot Congress,” thundered Narendra Modi at the recently concluded National Council Meeting of the Bharatiya Janata Party. And when he added — to rapturous applause of BJP workers who had jam packed Talkatora Stadium to listen to him — that “sweat and hard work of BJP Karyakartas will ensure that this happens,” he re-ignited the flame that had forgotten itself and breathed life back into BJP’s drooping Lotus.

In that incandescent moment, Narendra Modi tuned bleaters into beaters. In that power moment, many of the millions of Indians glued to the TV were transformed from despondent doubters to enthusiastic believers. In that electric moment, BJP’s baton finally went into the hand it had been gasping for.

Lal Krishna Advani, a veteran of 85 summers, epitomises almost everything that went right and then wrong with the BJP. While he can rightly claim credit for turning a once two-MP party into a party of beaters, he equally is responsible for turning it into a flock of bleaters, particularly after the BJP lost power in 2004.

What has been the constant wail of Advani and his key advisors/acolytes? The one thing that has troubled them – continues to – most is “political untouchability”, ostensibly due to BJP’s communal agenda, as defined by the party’s irreconcilable political foes, led by the Congress party which preaches secularism but practices nothing but naked communalism.

Advani, as he himself admitted during his valedictory address at the council meeting, suffers from a deep-rooted inferiority complex, one manifestation of which is his self-perceived lack of eloquence compared to Atal Bihari Vajpayee and even Sushma Swaraj. Add to it the fact that none of those he picked to give direction to the party after its defeat have either a popular base anywhere or a record of governance to speak about, and you know why BJP looks like a warship stranded in the high seas, sails torn, engines seized, oars broken, rudder gone, GPS knocked out.

When you constantly bemoan political untouchability and, to get rid of it, crave quick-fix political and not popular acceptance, you not only lose direction and purpose, but also the vigour necessary to beat your political opponents where you are meant to: at the hustings. Your readiness to bed anyone — no matter what the compromise – as strategy to snatch power, conveys to the voter and worker alike that this leaderless, rudderless, self-serving party is no different from the one it seeks to unseat, why take a risk?

When you speak to your party workers and leaders, you are expected to connect to them, convince them that victory is going to be theirs, and motivate them with a few big ideas and slogans that catch, if not fire, their imagination.

But if you heard Advani speak on March 03, 2013, minus shots of the audience, you would never have known who his target group was. There was nothing to differentiate the speech from an op-ed in a newspaper or a blog post for an entirely different, remote audience. There was not one word in there to enthuse the cadre he was addressing.

You don’t tell your workers, as Advani did, that the only hope for the party is in seeking more and more alliance partners – NDA Plus. This is tantamount to an admission by the leader that he has no idea or plan — perhaps even desire — to deepen and increase the footprint of the party and make it win on its own. No better way to promise defeat and demoralise everyone. Copy-pasting old templates that have little relevance in the present is a sure way of ensuring that your party has no future.

You can also not enthuse your party workers by telling them to rubbish the Congress – in whose bed some top party leaders are widely perceived to be in — while maintaining strict Omerta about the principal threat, the Sonia Gandhi family. On top of that if you tell them to praise the performance of BJP’s state governments, but go to the people and ask for votes for an unnamed PM, or for a leader who has contributed nothing to that fine record and has no base of his own, you can be sure no one is going to do so with any conviction, if at all.

And if the only innovative idea you have is a Xerox of the one that the Congress party has been flogging to death, one whose ever widening range and scope is disturbingly divisive and worse, then you should not be surprised if you are roundly rejected by voters again.

Fortunately, this time Advani’s word was not the last. He knew it too, even as he spoke, without conviction, without applause.No one went to Talkatora Stadium to listen to the same speeches, the same ideas, the same leaders who cannot win more than their own seat and have not figured out in years how to win one more for the party. They went there to listen to the man they believed had the torch to light their way to the destination they had lost hope of ever reaching.

Narendra Modi was acutely aware of and alive to their — and the nation’s — pent up frustrations and high expectations. He realised that they needed to be made to believe that victory was going to be theirs. He knew he had to show them the bull’s eye, and also how to shoot at it.

Yet, no one was prepared for the vehemence with which he went for the holy jugular of the ‘Termite’ party – the Nehru-Gandhi Family. The impact was immediate. It was as if a door had been opened to the forbidden fortress, without taking which victory is not possible. No more potting around this side of the moat, hoping that the fortress will fall on its own; no more letting the defenders within fearlessly fire all weapons and keep you helplessly pinned down.

To convince them that the fortress was ready to be stormed, Modi also identified a few weak spots in its walls as well as weapons in his and BJP’s impressive, proven armoury: mission vs. commission; aspiration vs. despondency; participatory governance vs. rule by 5-star NAC activists; great CMs vs. ordinary puppets; surajya vs. destructive dynastic rajya.

Not once did Modi tell his workers — and voters listening with rapt attention — that they were not good enough to beat Congress, that he had more faith than them in workers and leaders of other political parties whose support he was desperate for, that the BJP was in no position to form a government that would not be as hobbled as the Congress-led government is due to difficult, unprincipled allies.

If you tell your troops all this before you launch them into battle, they won’t fight for you. If you tell voters fed up of weak, corrupt coalition governments that you can offer no better, they won’t vote for you. This is something that BJP had, mysteriously, forgotten.

Lions don’t bleat. Narendra Modi has always fought and will fight to win. For India — he was never the regional satrap that he was made out to be. This is the spirit he suffused Talkatora Stadium and many Indian hearts with, when he called upon the people of India to treat defeating the family enterprise called Congress a national duty, and outlined his and his party’s mission and vision for India. This is the spirit that the BJP sorely lacked. This is the spirit Modi wants to fill all 125 crore Indians with. This is the spirit that India needs.

http://www.centreright.in/2013/03/modi- ... TYj7aL3D3V

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2013 07:29

Two points on the issue of whether the RSS is a 'communal' organization...

1. There is a logical fallacy in calling those who are opposed to 'communally organized' religion as being themselves 'communal'. Its exactly the same as if I were to define 'Secularism' as a religion and those who stridently argue for secularism as being 'deeply communal in support of the religion of secularism'.

Hinduism is fundamentally opposed to any one prophet, or any one God as the sole Truth - in a sense 'anti-communalism' is a core attribute of Hinduism. So, if the RSS strongly defends the Hindu anti-communal stance of there being no single path or monopoly to the ultimate Truth, and takes steps to prevent the advance of Abrahamic communalists who insist on there being only one Path - it would be a complete travesty and turning logic upside down on its head to describe the RSS as being a 'communal' organization.

2. The Church is both (a) a socio-political organization that works to support the socio-political needs of Christians and (b) a provider of spiritual solace. In Hinduism, there is no equivalent organization that provides both (a) and (b).

The temple system in India addresses ONLY (b), and typically has zero focus on (a). The RSS is an organization that has sprung up to address the requirement of (a) for Hindus.

The RSS definitely does not condone violence of any kind in its socio-political role, and neither does the Church (though many here would dispute the latter). There have been some members of the RSS who have been accused of violent crimes, as have many more members of the Church.

If the RSS deserves to be banned because of the actions of some of its members or because it is 'communal' - so does the Church. If politicians in India are required not to be a member of the RSS - then they should also be required not to be a member of any Church or have ever attended Church in their past lives.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 06 Mar 2013 07:37

^^^ Anybody who represents and promotes polytheism and spiritual democracy can never be called communal. It is the duty of polytheists to resist monotheism because it takes away freedom of thought and establishes a spiritual dictatorship. Amazingly, the leftist liberals never question the bigoted beliefs of monotheists but are always questioning the legitimacy of pluralistic traditions. It is a cuckoo-land scenario.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2013 07:44

varunkumar wrote:^^^ Anybody who represents and promotes polytheism and spiritual democracy can never be called communal. It is the duty of polytheists to resist monotheism because it takes away freedom of thought and establishes a spiritual dictatorship. Amazingly, the leftist liberals never question the bigoted beliefs of monotheists but are always questioning the legitimacy of pluralistic traditions. It is a cuckoo-land scenario.

You are absolutely right, Varun.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 08:02

SwamyG wrote:I am sorry if it looks like 'Hindus are baying for Muslim'. Be it aam admi, arm-chair eggsperts on BRF, scholars, NGOs or government authorities - everybody looks at the incidents as "attack on India" onlee. That is the most obvious and first thing. However, the country and individuals have evolved and gone to the subsequent analysis. Who are the people who have continuously been attacking India? It has been Pakistan and Pakistan sponsored groups. How have they been attacking? Using Indian Muslims. And why are the Muslims disgruntled and prone to join these groups? Because they have not been included in the growth, and socially, economically, culturally been kept back. Who has done it? It is Congress because of its omissions and commissions.

That is how they had it. While drafting Constitution, it is admirable to look at other Constitutions (even copy items) and craft something for the country, one has to look at national heritage, values and traditions.

That is one chain of logic.

Personally I also notice that most of these mofo's are relatively well off middle class muslims as well. How do you go from there to saying muslims are disgruntled. The more connected and internet aware types seem to be prone to being radicalized. There is a lot of radical muslim garbage floating around the world and a certain sliver of the patass crowd appears to become seduced. Are large chunks of muslims economically disadvantaged, yes, mostly of their own making. These sections are not comfortable with the mode of modernity being projected. I don't know what the answer is to that. AFAIK removing the congress has not changed this.

I don't know how you can say the constitution ignores local values. Take a look at the original hindu marriage act or the property inheritance laws. Some sections are taken word for word from hindu laws. Of course since then hindus has edited those sections and modernized to a large extent, in fact more modern than christian law. If there is chaffing it is that muslim modernization has not kept up with hindu.

That said as I pointed out the structure and logic of the Indian constitution, western constitution and even British ones are all based on Roman law. Most modern societies only tinker around the edges of this precedent. Why do we use? Because it works and cultures that use such rule by law have become rich and prosperous.

Here is wiki uncle on the precedents of law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 06 Mar 2013 08:04

RamaY wrote:2. In the second video Sri MJ Akbar is selling the "Idea of India" to the white Pakis - USA/Canada. Check from min 50 onwards.
Tinderbox- India & its Neighbours, with MJ Akbar

RamaY ji, I blogged this today:
"Louder" dialogue: Right foot forward

"Citizen diplomacy" is fruitful only if the agents of dialogue are reasonably in sync with their nation's purpose and philosophy. Such individuals from both sides can use the informality and good intentions to create a genuine dialogue and enhance mutual understanding. If India had genuine representatives, I would be all in favour of track II diplomacy and cultural exchange. But an octogenarian Wagah Candle Holder pining for his ancestral aangan in Lahore and trying to keep alive his dhimmi-schooled father's Urdu may not be India's best foot forward.

Nor, in my view, is a "secularist" who is unwilling to acknowledge the depth and real context of India's civilization as a valid (and valuable) starting point in modern times, much less take pride in it. What is he willing to fight and die for? - That question undergirds his qualification to dialogue on behalf of the nation, rather than merely his "pacifist" unwillingness to fight. Or worse. (See this interesting speech by M.J. Akbar on the Idea of India.)

This is all the more important because this generation of warfare has stepped out of the conventional framework of Westphalian states, and its driving force goes beyond a primitive nationalism and even political-economic ideology. In this scenario, there are "countries" today that are not really nation-states in the proper sense of the term, they are sly foxes in the garb of law abiding nation-states. Their behaviour confuses naive observers, who call them "failed states" that are not quite failing. But the fact is that they were never meant to be successful as nation-states. their success lies in something else, something much larger. Taking advantage of the protocols of being called a nation-state and especially a failing one that cannot control "non state actors" is part of that larger war, specifically its diplomatic aspect.

When this is the big picture, a nation that is in a make-believe delusion that it is about nation-states is decidedly out-of-place and a naive oddity, setting itself up for others to play games with it. Therefore, those Indian commentators that try to distract the nation by calling a strangely idiotic "pride" to the fact that India is not considered a "failed state" are deluding the people. They are a direct threat to the future development of India's national purpose, much less ideal representatives for dialogue with others.

As long as India cannot put its "right" foot forward, its probably better to keep transactions limited to covert ops where required, as punishment for specific actions or to cultivate certain trends. At the same time, the need of the hour is for a vigorous discussion (not wrangling, not cavil) within India to clarify and then solidify the idea of India going forward. As actions speak louder than words, this combination of internal dialogue and hard external ops will make for a "louder" dialogue, decency be damned.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 06 Mar 2013 08:18

Sushupti wrote:
MODI: TURNING BLEATERS IN TO BEATERS

“India has decided to uproot Congress,” thundered Narendra Modi at the recently concluded National Council Meeting of the Bharatiya Janata Party. And when he added — to rapturous applause of BJP workers who had jam packed Talkatora Stadium to listen to him — that “sweat and hard work of BJP Karyakartas will ensure that this happens,” he re-ignited the flame that had forgotten itself and breathed life back into BJP’s drooping Lotus.

In that incandescent moment, Narendra Modi tuned bleaters into beaters. In that power moment, many of the millions of Indians glued to the TV were transformed from despondent doubters to enthusiastic believers. In that electric moment, BJP’s baton finally went into the hand it had been gasping for.

Lal Krishna Advani, a veteran of 85 summers, epitomises almost everything that went right and then wrong with the BJP. While he can rightly claim credit for turning a once two-MP party into a party of beaters, he equally is responsible for turning it into a flock of bleaters, particularly after the BJP lost power in 2004.

My hope is that once NaMo gets a more secure hold in the BJP exco, these old fogies like LKA will be put out to pasture.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 06 Mar 2013 08:58

Mr. Theo is playing on this thread the role that sanku played in the Armor thread. I would suggest that we stop getting off topic and concentrate on NM.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 06 Mar 2013 09:00

Pratyush wrote:Kejriwal denies replacing Modi at Wharton forum

Dont know what to make of this.

monkey with a gun cannot be a king but surely can spoil the show.

Anyway best of luck to him. Hope he talks about overall development and not just corruption with no bright ideas to tackle it.
he should bring a refreshing change to the policies as to why he is different from the rest of the pack.

Though IMHO he will be no great shakes.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 06 Mar 2013 09:04

Arun Menon wrote:Mr. Theo is playing on this thread the role that sanku played in the Armor thread. I would suggest that we stop getting off topic and concentrate on NM.

on the contrary, he is showing us why NaMo is far better than the congi stooges.
we have to get more facts and ascertain why congi cannot be more development oriented.
By digging in more we become firm in our views wrt NaMo.

critics are more important in that aspect.
carry on theo. you will convert more to NaMo side than any of his supporters.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 09:04

Carlji

Very good. I envy you guys. You can write nice blog posts. It takes me forever to write a post (and some motivation from BRadmins)

Ok now you inspired me... I will write a blogpost on this topic tomorrow.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 09:05

krisna wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:Mr. Theo is playing on this thread the role that sanku played in the Armor thread. I would suggest that we stop getting off topic and concentrate on NM.

on the contrary, he is showing us why NaMo is far better than the congi stooges.
we have to get more facts and ascertain why congi cannot be more development oriented.
By digging in more we become firm in our views wrt NaMo.

critics are more important in that aspect.
carry on theo. you will convert more to NaMo side than any of his supporters.

+1.

In the uNDTV debate I posted about ManiAyyar pushed the Indian to Bharatiya side by the end of he debate

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2013 09:16

Narendra Modi's treatment by Wharton slammed by US Congressman

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Mar 2013 09:26

I must add the recent NaMo speech is reverberating far and wide.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2013 10:31

Rajiv Srinivasan provides a good big-picture analysis as usual: Fiasco of Modi at Wharton

But the sentence I really liked was this-

They have at their service a truly motley crew of characters: Angry Dancer, Police Officer 1.0 and 2.0, Ex-Babu-Now-Saint, and the allegedly Witness-Coaching Activist who was told to keep away from their locality by the victims who were allegedly being helped.

The character I am most looking forward to, when this is turned into a movie five years down the road, is that of the 'Angry Dancer' !!

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Mar 2013 10:36

SwamyG wrote: I see Modi as a secular, who would rightly enforce the separation of government and religion.

by not pandering in to minorities as INC, Mulayam, artiste etc does - it can certainly be argued that Modi is more secular than these characters. Actually the only secular in its truest sense.

Is saying - muslims have first claim on resources - a secular thing to say? But it is argued that MMS is secular while Modi is "an old RSS type communal".

I am willing to be corrected here, but TF or anybody can let me know that since 2002, what special treatment has Modi has given to hindus in his state and what special discrimination has he done against muslims in his state? (for argument's sake, I am keeping the 2002 riots out, without admitting or asserting anything).

TF - is it all about 'first impressions'? the first story put out on him were so demonising that it is still having residual suspicions and uneasiness - despite the reality as it is now?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Mar 2013 11:01

Theo_Fidel wrote: I don't think I said that. What I said was the electorate will decide if a person with a clear RSS thought process will rule India.

ABV for 6 years?

what are you smoking Theo, forget your logical fallacies, you dont have basic data points in line.

Let me ask you a straight question, if NaMo is to be blamed for riots, Nehru is a mass murderer.

Yes/No?

You are doing too much of shifting from one position to other, you need to be nailed down so that we may know what your real views are.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 06 Mar 2013 11:35

Kanson wrote:I must add the recent NaMo speech is reverberating far and wide.

Any u-tube links please?
added later: perhaps this is the one.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Mar 2013 11:42

Excellent HDI ranking achieved by India compared to Nepal, BD, Sri Lanka, Bhutan ... (meanwhile severe mal-nourishment worse than Somalia in Gujarat) based on rates from 1990-2010

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/health ... 476208.ece

Life expectancy at birth in India, that was 58.3 in 1990, has gone up to 65.2 in 2010. However, most of India’s neighbours are ahead on this measure; in 1990, life expectancy was 58.8 years in Nepal, 58.8 in Bhutan, 58.9 in Bangladesh, 62.3 in Pakistan, 69.3 in China, and 72.3 in Sri Lanka. These countries remained ahead of India in 2010. Life expectancy at birth in 2010 was 65.7 years for Pakistan, 69.0 for Bangladesh, 69.2 for Nepal, 69.4 for Bhutan, 75.5 for Sri Lanka, and 75.7 for China.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Mar 2013 11:46

Arun Menon wrote:Mr. Theo is playing on this thread the role that sanku played in the Armor thread. I would suggest that we stop getting off topic and concentrate on NM.

Calling Arjun the tank communal is one thing... Not that RSS is cute and cuddly, but if they are communal then what is Papacy?

Coming back to the idea of India, look where the Dynasty has led us - excellent progress in HDI compared to Nepal, BD and yes Pakistan!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Mar 2013 11:49

disha wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:Mr. Theo is playing on this thread the role that sanku played in the Armor thread. I would suggest that we stop getting off topic and concentrate on NM.
Calling Arjun the tank communal is one thing... Not that RSS is cute and cuddly, but if they are communal then what is Papacy?

Coming back to the idea of India, look where the Dynasty has led us - excellent progress in HDI compared to Nepal, BD and yes Pakistan!

Where in the hells name did this come from?

Arun Menon -- It seems some people can not handle their asses getting whupped with data and instead focus on personal attacks. But I must say you are just like Arun Menon on any thread.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 06 Mar 2013 12:31

Indeed the speech by Modi at BJP National Council Meeting is worth watching (till the last).

Angrezon se mukti mili Swaraj ayaa. Congress se mukti mili to Surajya ayega!! Jai Ho!!

Even a person sitting on sideline can't ignore the puppet show by Sonia using MMS even as princling is prepped. Do we deserve that type of sheeet in this day and age?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Mar 2013 12:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:It should also be mentioned that while Modi himself was acquitted, at least one of his ministers was indeed convicted and sent to jail. AFAIK he has not condemned those actions either. There is one point of view that he actively worked to shield that minister from the consequences of her actions. It is impossible to know as all levers of power are on one side only. It is unclear if he has progressed beyond the RSS phase. I suspect he is still an RSS guy as per the electorate point of view. It is to be noted that many innocents from both sides were killed on his watch.

The electorate will decide one way or the other...

And it should also be mentioned in addition that:

1) The said minister (Maya Kodnani) was not a minister when the incident happened and is known not to be close to NM and instead was pushed in by certain other parts of Sangh. Nor was the said minister, a minister when the prosecution initiated the case. She was a minister only in the interregnum.

2) despite the fact that the judge went out of his/her way to intrepret the right punishment

, he/she still ended up not mentioning NM in even a single one of the 2000 page judgement

.

3) Instead it was the Gujarat government under NM that promptly removed the minister from office when the prosecuters got their case ready against the said minister and it was the Gujarat government provided the evidence, affidavits and prosecution showing how the justice was done under the leadership of NM

4) Secularists going around with a fertile imagination were discredited in the judgement. Udi baba the vile hindus.

5) NM government had done 4 times as many preventive arrests of Hindus compared to those of the Muslims and fired something like 10000 rounds of ammunition on the rioters.

6) The secularists have only one agenda to perpetuate the Kongi yoke and through that sell their plastic. Not once will a secularist say anything about the millions of gazallions of communal incidents managed during the Kongi rules. Nor will the secularists draw any balance between one guy doing good and a sorry bunch pushing in billions and trillions of dollors into India from foreign countries. [ok over the top description, but then I believe it is well deserved]

7) RSS stands for Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. Sevaks who based on personal conviction, have formed a Sangh for the benefit of their Rashtra. And while RSS guy is a Khaki Kaccha guy and not as glamorous as a Superman in Kaccha which is the epitome of western modernism held out to all modern kids by their modern parents, many have choosen to be unglamorous instead of being phoren. And yes NM was also in RSS. And while I only suspect it but seems like NM will not let go of his links within RSS, rather he would push back at his competitors within RSS.

Amen to "The electorate will decide one way or the other". Mahadev ki iccha sarvopari.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 12:58

Gus wrote:Is saying - muslims have first claim on resources - a secular thing to say? But it is argued that MMS is secular while Modi is "an old RSS type communal".

Yes that is a nonsense statement and should go in the scrap heap of history. The congress is not very secular but it is not communal either. The very next week MMS will go to naxalbari and tell the naxalites they have first call on Indian resources. That said Modi is careful with what he says which is why I read his few speeches available in English. That is why I have said I want him to say more. Esp on what his thoughts are on the pressing needs of Indian society. There is absolutely no doubt that horrible things happened to a lot of innocent people on his watch. Rajiv Gandhi never managed to live down the Delhi riots, I don't think you brush off these kinds of things. Like I said he needs a larger message. Development is not always the most popular item in many parts of India that have seen the negative without too much of the positive, he needs to build alliances and suck up to some of the prickly folks out there. At some point I would recommend he address 2002 head on, not dissimilar to the Obama and Jeremy Wright speech.

BTW can I just say that it was questionable decision on his part to visit Chennai when AMMA was absent and end up doing a press session. AMMA is very sensitive about that sort of stuff and how it comes off. If he wants an alliance with AMMA, and he is probably going to need her, he should handle her with a lot more finesse.

WRT the RSS its agenda is very much available for reading. Gowalkar's book is available for all with a little googling. It is no secret that a privilaged position is desired for the Hindu faith. I don't see how you can do that without tearing the constitution apart. I don't think NM differs in this objective. It is hard to say how he would have ruled GJ in difficult circumstances. His only challenge came in 2002 and IMO he flubbed it.
---------------------------------------------

Ravi_G,

That is not entirely correct either. NM was the Home minister as well during that period IIRC. The fact that a under trial with evidence stacked against her became a minister..... ...I guess worse things have happened in UP...

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Mar 2013 13:05

Theo: provide a basis for the argument that electing Modi = electing to have some alleged RSS agenda imposed. Do you also agree that electing a Muslim or Christian = electing to have all of India converted to either of those faiths ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2013 13:13

Haven't Horrible things happened to people under many peoples watches from Kashmir, Mahrastra to Naxlbari, to UP, AP, Assam, West Bengal and various Terror Incidents.

why Modi held to different standard.

Also, how about an apology from Many Political NGO and Media that their reports and claims of Hundreds of fetuses being ripped apart in early 2002 was a lie

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Mar 2013 14:09

Theo_Fidel wrote: Ravi_G,

That is not entirely correct either. NM was the Home minister as well during that period IIRC. The fact that a under trial with evidence stacked against her became a minister..... ...I guess worse things have happened in UP...

Theo ji it is still a matter of public debate as to when a public official should leave his office, upon allegations, upon chargesheet or upon conviction. This incidently was one of the issues dealt with by Arun Jaitley ji in one his recent interviews with uber secularist. I wonder what would be your standards of public life.

As I see it, if there are only allegations without even the prosecution having done their homework, let alone having proved anything, the tamashbeens cannot be entertained. Allegations ki raajniti is old trick with a certain types and then there are people who know how to deal with it. NM knows how to deal with them. And till date the secularists have no way of making anything stick to him despite the official machinery being used against him and naukarshah getting bought and sold at every point.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2013 14:18

Guess which state improved most in malnutrition? Gujarat

Did the rug just get pulled out from under the Anti-Modi camp ?

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 06 Mar 2013 15:08

Carl wrote:

why this dogs photo saar?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 06 Mar 2013 15:11

^^Next they will be complaining about the overweight children and auntees in Gujarat.