Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

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Amber G.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Amber G. »

Sorry if this is already posted but I found this very interesting (and credible)
Posting here because
"permission is granted to use quotes and images from this blog for online, print, radio, and broadcast so long as both original image source credit and MH370Shadow source credit is maintained. A link-back to MH370Shadow.com is required when reproducing any content derived from this site.
..
Theories on what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (MH370) are plentiful on the Internet and TV news shows, but one Ohio man's theory has gained the attention of thousands.
Wednesday marked 11 days since Flight 370 disappeared en route from Kuala Lumpur International Airport to Beijing Capital International Airport.
Ohio man Keith Ledgerwood posted his own theory on his Tumblr blog that he believes the plane may have "shadowed" another plane to appear undetected.
Ledgerwood says Singapore Airlines flight number 68 was in the vicinity of MH370 when it lost contact with ground crews. He says MH370 could have flown above or below the Singapore Airlines flight and on the same course to avoid radar detection.

http://mh370shadow.com/post/79838944823 ... sia68-sq68

Did Malaysian Airlines 370 disappear using SIA68/SQ68 (another 777)?
NOTE - An update and follow-up has been posted at:
http://mh370shadow.com/post/80154688823 ... -malaysian
Here is the this from a mainstream news paper:
Malaysia Airlines 370 in Central Asia? A Theory That's Less Outlandish Than it Seems
Each day Malaysia Airlines flight 370 remains lost, the chances grow higher it was stolen intact and lies hidden near an isolated airstrip in Central Asia, somewhere, waiting to serve a dark purpose in terrorism, crime, or global political intrigue.

Bizarre and unlikely as it seems, that’s one scenario that emerges from confirmed data, the sequence of events, and speculations on what’s possible and what’s not as experts challenge everything we thought we knew about avionics, communications, and commercial air crashes and searches on the Internet and ‘round-the-clock TV news.

MH370 was well on its way to China across the Gulf of Thailand when it reversed course in a long, wide arc that took it west, passing back over the Malay Peninsula. Directing India to search a sector of the southern Indian Ocean earlier in the week, Malaysian authorities were suggesting the Boeing 777-200 headed southwest. After early promise, searchers have found no debris southwest of Australia, in a patch of ocean known to attract flotsam.

But there’s another plausible answer: suppose it continued to the northwest.

After all, that’s where it was headed when Thai military radar found it in the last known sighting. And one aviation enthusiast and pilot has advanced the theory that the plane not only flew that way over the guarded airspace of India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, but did so hiding in the radar shadow of a wholly legitimate commercial flight, using the identical type of aircraft.

“These air corridors are the interstate highways of the skies,” Keith Ledgerwood told Forbes Asia in an exclusive interview. “Yes, the national borders are guarded. But radar operators see dozens of flights a night. A radar signature for a Boeing 777 that contains an unusual blip would look like a minor anomaly in something they’re used to looking at, and would not attract interest.”

At the time MH370 passed westward over the Malay Peninsula, another Boeing 777 was in the same vicinity. Ledgerwood plotted the route MH370 would take across the Straits of Malacca, and found it would begin to intercept Singapore Airlines 68, Singapore to Barcelona, near the navigational waypoint known as ‘gival’. By the time it reached another, ‘igrex’ at 18:15UTC, the two Boeing 777s would be at the same place at the same time.

“Don’t forget there’s no radar out over much of the ocean, and both of the key systems that would make MH370 visible to another aircraft, the transponder and the ACARS [Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System], had been turned off,” Ledgerwood said.

From that point, he said, it would be a simple matter for the pilot of MH370 to plug in the same flight plan used by SIA68 – a Malaysia Airlines pilot would have access to it – and switch to autopilot to maintain consistent speed, altitude, and direction.

By the time they neared the reach of Indian radar, MH370 would be flying ‘dark’, in the ‘shadow’ of SIA68. That would make it possible to hug the legitimate flight’s radar signature, stamped as that of SIA68, across the Indian subcontinent. Once free of these volatile airspaces and their watchful radar operators, it would be able to veer off to land in China’s Xingjian province, Kyrgyzstan, or Turkmenistan. “Each of these final locations would match up almost perfectly with the 7.5 hours of total flight time.”

Flying in the shadow of a similar aircraft is easier than critics make it out to be, he said in a blog entry. Answering objections such as wake turbulence, visual separation, and altimeter interference, he said he’s heard from dozens of seasoned Boeing 777 pilots who agree with him.

This theory faces one glaring problem: where do you land a 348-ton aircraft that requires an 5,000-foot runway in one of the more remote regions of the world?

But other scenarios seem even more unlikely. If a mechanical breakdown had been responsible for the early change in course, the flight would be safe by now or would have crashed in the Gulf of Thailand. (Or would have flown on for many hundreds of miles after a fire killed the crew but somehow left the autopilot and major avionics systems intact, in a Wired.com ‘zombie flight’ speculation.)

Taking this aircraft, whoever did it, would require inside knowledge, a professional’s skill at piloting a Boeing 777 — and a complex motive. Anyone like this, the reasoning goes, would have a destination in mind. Intending suicide or ransom, he could have gone to Beijing as scheduled or returned to Kuala Lumpur without attracting notice, or even gone to any of the cities of Southeast Asia or Australia. He could have simply crashed into the sea. But instead, he did something that required him to fly to the west.

Would someone with a scheme like this have collaborators on the ground? And if so, would they have the resources to service a modern jetliner and, presumably, fly it again under conditions of absolute secrecy on a scale that would make this one of the most brazen crimes in history?

All of this is imponderable. But it would explain one of the many mysteries of MH370. After taking its U-turn and crossing back over the Malay Peninsula the aircraft likely, but unaccountably, ascended to 45,000 feet. This is a remarkable elevation for a Boeing 777, making it hard to fly and requiring a precipitous descent to get to back to 23,000 feet. But just a few minutes of depressurization at this altitude would eliminate any possibility of resistance from its remaining crew outside of the cockpit – or its 227 passengers.

Donald Frazier writes about Asia and its business culture for a number of magazines, including Forbes Asia, Forbes Life, and Forbes. He saw the crash of one airliner, Air France 4590 in Paris in July 2000, and hopes he never sees another.
Last edited by Amber G. on 23 Mar 2014 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
member_28502
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by member_28502 »

Pakistani Efff Solah has been sent to give cover to searchers in case of alien attacka
chaanakya
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote:Sorry if this is already posted but I found this very interesting (and credible)
Posting here because

yeah It was posted and discussed on 17th March.

here is the link to previous post by Partha
rohitvats
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by rohitvats »

Rishi wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^Which windows on IL-76 is the report talking about? In fact, when I saw the news report and the picture, my first observation was about lack of windows and subsequent lateral visibility. Whatever few windows are there will have the engines in their LOS.
observer windows in nose and tail?
Yes, I'm aware about that. In fact, the front section is for the Navigator if I'm not wrong.

But that means the arc of surveillance using Eyeball Mark 1 is limited to say 90 degree in front and rear. For full search of a given sector the ideal situation would be for observers to view the lateral profile as the plane flies along a particular vector.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Almost every where they have looked folks have found debris. South china Sea. Check. Vietnam coast. Check. A&N. check. BoB. Check. There some reports of debris in Africa, plane was spotted in Maldives, etc. No sooner do folks look at a region than the Chinese find debris followed by a seismic event. :roll: Then it seems everyone needs to keep up. Australia, France, USA, etc.

When one thinks about it a 90 ft chunk of debris weighing several tons in 30-40 foot seas won't survive for even a few hours. Being flexed back and forth every few seconds will shatter it.

I hope the folks are looking for is the ELT. They have about 10 more days before it dies. Ships, submarines should do a grid pattern listening for it. Hopefully standard sonar should pick it up. If not need to adapt equipment.
-------------------------------

UB saar, what are the chances that volatile aviation fuel, atomized at 30,000 ft +- will make it down to the ocean in a orderly little slick. I think low to non-existent. There are no solids in it to make the trip. Aviation fuel is very light oil with carbon number 8-16. If fuel was dumped there would b no trace.
------------------------

If the plane was flying 'dumb' for hours, as seems increasingly likely, the spin of the earth, jet stream, ICTZ, etc should have had a large effect. Easily in 1000 mile type off course range.
Esp. South of the Equator on the projected path the jet would be flying into the teeth of the trade winds. This seems unlikely it could get that far.
More likely the winds would conspire to push it further west.
Deep into the heart of no go ocean.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... earch.html
German and American oceanographers are planning to deploy the world's three unmanned "Abyss" type deep sea search submarines to track down the remains of the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.

Der Spiegel magazine said scientists at the Helmholtz Oceanography Institute in the German port city of Kiel had arranged with their counterparts at the Massachusetts-based Woods Hole Institute to deploy the three submarines which can dive to depths of 6,000 metres and stay submerged for up to 24 hours.

"We have already agreed to launch a joint search with our American colleagues," said Peter Herzig, the director of the Helmholtz Institute.

"With Sonar from three submarines we will be able to search a much bigger area."
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by ldev »

Part of the press release from Malaysia for today. From this is appears that the Indian planes will be based in Malaysia and conduct searches in the northern part of the southern corridor. They will not go on to Australia, I guess there is enough firepower there.

SUNDAY, 23 MARCH 2014
1. Search and rescue operational update

a. The search and rescue operation remains an international effort, co-ordinated by Malaysia. A number of countries are leading in their respective search areas and all countries involved are displaying unprecedented levels of co-operation.

b. This morning, Malaysia received new satellite images from the French authorities showing potential objects in the vicinity of the southern corridor. Malaysia immediately relayed these images to the Australian rescue co-ordination centre.

c. Two Chinese Ilyushin IL-76s have arrived in Perth, and will depart for the search and rescue operation tomorrow at 05:00 and 06:00

d. Two Japanese P3 Orions today left Subang airport for Perth.

e. The Australian rescue co-ordination centre will deploy eight aircraft (four military and four civilian) to the southern corridor today, to conduct visual searching.

f. The Australian Defence Vessel ‘Ocean Shield’, which has a sub-sea remotely operated vehicle, is currently en route to the southern corridor.

g. As of 2:30pm Malaysia time, Australian officials have informed us that they have not made any new sightings regarding MH370.

h. One Indian Navy P8 Poseidon and one Indian Air Force C130 left Subang airport today to join the search and rescue operation in the northern part of the southern corridor, which is being led by Indonesia.

i. A number of other sorties from Subang airport to the southern corridor were cancelled today due to bad weather caused by tropical cyclone Gillian.


and this article in the Indian Express confirms that.

Indian aircraft join search operations for missing malaysia plane

India on Sunday deployed two long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft in the Indian Ocean to help trace the Malaysian plane that mysteriously went missing over two weeks ago, carrying 239 people on board. The two surveillance aircraft – P8-I Poseidon of the Indian Navy and C-130J Super Hercules of the Indian Air Force – took off on Sunday from Subang Airport, Malaysia for search and rescue operations in the Indian Ocean along the southern corridor.
They arrived here on March 21 following a commitment from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to assist Malaysia and render all possible assistance to it in locating the missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH 370, the Ministry of External Affairs said.
Both the aircraft have long endurance capabilities coupled with state-of-the-art electro optronic and infra red search and reconnaissance equipment on board, it said in a press release. The P8-I aircraft has the added advantage of on-board radars and especially-designed search and rescue kits.
Both Indian aircraft took off this morning for the search areas allotted by the Aeronautical Rescue Coordination Centre (ARCC) after extensive briefings. Even though they are likely to encounter cyclonic conditions en route, both aircraft Captains decided to skirt bad weather areas to reach the search sectors allotted by the ARCC.
Both aircraft are likely to undertake 10-hour sorties on Sunday. India has been participating in search and rescue operations from March 11 in the Andaman Sea and the Bay of Bengal. Five ships and six aircraft of the Indian Navy and Indian Coast Guard carried out search from March 11-21 from the Andaman and Nicobar Command.
With the arrival of these two long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft in Malaysia, India has now joined the next phase of ‘International Search and Rescue’ operations under coordination of ARCC. The Indian crews were warmly received by the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) Base Subang, and the Base Commander personally received and briefed the Indian crews at the RMAF Base Subang.
The Indian crews, who have a long association of operating and training with RMAF, were appreciative of the high-level of professional support rendered by the RMAF. India has assured that they will undertake any mission assigned by the ARCC and render any assistance that is technically feasible, the release said
I wonder how far south from Subang a 10 hour sortie will take the planes?
Last edited by ldev on 23 Mar 2014 20:08, edited 1 time in total.
Singha
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Singha »

it seems the MQ-4C Triton BAMS will reach IOC in 2015 only. none are operational in service.
it has different wing vs ghawk in that it must take stress of rapid descent from 60,000ft to 10,000ft to get +ve visual id on some targets.
however due to inability to property id debris at night, its 28 hr endurance is kind of moot....though from sunrise to sunset it can loiter over target area and conduct a 12 hr "on station" patrol leaving 6 + 6 hrs for transit and 4 hrs reserve. thats a lot more than these LRMP birds are able to maintain on station.

IN is going to some and think about it - flying 3000km out from trivandrum, conducting a 12 hr mission and then flying back in automated mode will be a huge scouting fwd edge to the P8I closer to base. it will extend our eyes massively.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

PDF, slow link, AMSA media release in full
23rd March, 2014: 2330 (AEDT)
Search operation for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 : Update 12
The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) search operation for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370
has concluded for today.

There were no sightings of significance.

The search area experienced early sea fog particularly in the western areas, however conditions
improved during the day.

A total of eight aircraft and HMAS Success supported today’s search effort in a cumulative 59,000 square kilometre search area across two search areas with in the Australian Search and Rescue Region
south-west of Perth.

The western boundary of the current search area is located 2500km from Perth.

Four civil ultra-long range jetschartered by AMSA and four military aircraft from Australian and the US
were involved in today’s search together with the HMAS Success.

Twenty State Emergency Service (SES) volunteers from Western Australia were tasked as air observers today on board the civil aircraft. Each civil aircraft had five SES air observers on board, as well as an AeroRescue Aviation Mission Coordinator. Aerorescue is AMSA’s contracted provider of dedicated search and rescue services from locations across Australia.

The search will resume tomorrow.

Chinese military Ilyushin IL-76 aircraft and Japanese P-3C aircraft will join the search on Monday.
https://www.amsa.gov.au/media/documents ... 2MH370.pdf
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Victor »

Good that our roundels are assisting out of Malaysia and not Oz. More useful press and goodwill to be earned there. Not to minimize the tragedy and suffering of course.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Paul »

If IN planes are flying out of Malasiya searching for MH aircraft, shouldn't Malasiya pay for the fuel charges for flying these missions?
chetak
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by chetak »

A relative of mine, booking on a large US airline, internal flight, was very recently refused a ticket (for a particular flight, even though plenty of tickets were available) on the grounds that "too many guys from your company are already on this flight, take the next flight"

Effect of MH 370??
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by chaanakya »

Authorities seek mystery woman who last spoke to Malaysia Airlines captain

Investigators are seeking a mystery woman who made a two-minute call to the captain from a mobile phone obtained under a false identity, The Daily Mail reported. The phone’s SIM card was traced back shop in Kuala Lumpur, where it was bought by someone with a woman’s name, who used a false identity
, according to The Mail. The find reportedly raised fears that Zaharie had ties to terror groups, who are known to use similar phones.
How credible is this Daily mail? They are quoted by NYDaily also.Not much light on this piece of info as yet.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Cosmo_R »

chetak wrote:A relative of mine, booking on a large US airline, internal flight, was very recently refused a ticket (for a particular flight, even though plenty of tickets were available) on the grounds that "too many guys from your company are already on this flight, take the next flight"

Effect of MH 370??
Not necessarily. Typically, insurance companies limit the corporate accidental death to a maximum of three individuals or so per flight. Number varies from company to company but there are corporate travel policies. Whether or not individuals are aware of this is another matter.
shiv
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by shiv »

What if the plane landed on water? And then sank. No explosion. No debris.
chaanakya
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by chaanakya »

Yeah , it has happened , on Hudson River. But without pilot flying the plane and wanting to land on water it would be impossible.



Anyway what is important is to find location of landing/crash so that beacons of ELT from BB can be traced.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by ldev »

If long range and endurance over water is the key for SAR aircraft, India should have sent a TU-142 to Subang. With its 15,000 km range, it would have flown the entire southern corridor from Subang to the end point of the southern corridor where the Australians/New Zealanders/Chinese etc. are searching and back to Subang and would have been on station at the southern end for 6-7 hours, without refuelling. I dont know though what kind of avionics suite it now has after upgrades and how successful it would be in such a search mission.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by UlanBatori »

UB saar, what are the chances that volatile aviation fuel, atomized at 30,000 ft +- will make it down to the ocean in a orderly little slick. I think low to non-existent. There are no solids in it to make the trip. Aviation fuel is very light oil with carbon number 8-16. If fuel was dumped there would b no trace.
Huh? No saar, CT was that plane dumped fuel in South China sea immediately during very first turn. On surface onlee. Cold temperatures - vaporization would be much << 100 percent. I don't think "dumping" is in atomized form (actually I have no idea how they do it) but I presume that it get dumped at extremely high rate, like a big valve opening below plane. It would come down like heavy rain over a width > plane width. Surface tension will cause formation of 1 slick / zone of many small slicklets that then merge over a couple of hours. Anyway, even in the case of oil rig blowout slick, the slick is not continuous: waves break it into globs of muck. Here not much muck, it was refined kerosene (if it was jet fuel).

Slick was seen by Vietnamese search plane very next sabere. In the expected spot. But then they said "nah nah nah nah! Thij eej nat the type fool we phill in B777 MH370". I am saying that they should (have) checked exactly what WAS filled. And whether the fuel sample provided by the Vietnamese was indeed what was tested. And reported. Stakes are too high for Malaysian regime. Lives etc not comparable in value. Imagine political and other consequences now of someone coming out and saying: "What REALLY happened was... and xyz ordered a coveup.."
******

This "search" has now become a Global Bissing Contest of Surface and Submarine Toys. If they haven't heard any ransom demands by now, the passengers are gone. They should take all the relatives home and pay compensation.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 23 Mar 2014 22:54, edited 1 time in total.
Prem
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Prem »

chetak wrote:A relative of mine, booking on a large US airline, internal flight, was very recently refused a ticket (for a particular flight, even though plenty of tickets were available) on the grounds that "too many guys from your company are already on this flight, take the next flight"
Effect of MH 370??
Its good old policy started few decades ago when a company lost over 65 key people in a plane crash from Singapore. Now days over 15 executives from One company on same flight is considered "Risky Business".
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by UlanBatori »

Not out of conjern phor company passengers. Conjern phor phlight because too tempting a target for competition to get rid of entire top layer of ur company.
Prem
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Prem »

A local Thana in Punjab working on the top Lizards of ISI can solve this mystery in 5 hours with under 2 K for CPDE=Chai Pani Daru Expense.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by krisna »

angry realtives accuse malaysia of cocealing
"The family members are extremely indignant," read a statement issued by the relatives afterwards, according to The Associated Press. "We believe we have been strung along, kept in the dark and lied to by the Malaysian government. All of the families agree that the Malaysian government has been delaying, concealing and cheating on us."

The statement said the Malaysians had “disregarded the life of the passengers,” adding: “They have been fooling the families and the people of the whole world.”

More than two-thirds of those on board the missing Beijing-bound Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 are Chinese.

A handful of their relatives have traveled to Kuala Lumpur, but the majority remains in Beijing where they have repeatedly accused Malaysia of withholding information.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by chetak »

Cosmo_R wrote:
chetak wrote:A relative of mine, booking on a large US airline, internal flight, was very recently refused a ticket (for a particular flight, even though plenty of tickets were available) on the grounds that "too many guys from your company are already on this flight, take the next flight"

Effect of MH 370??
Not necessarily. Typically, insurance companies limit the corporate accidental death to a maximum of three individuals or so per flight. Number varies from company to company but there are corporate travel policies. Whether or not individuals are aware of this is another matter.
Thanks Cosmo_R ji, Jhujar ji

Good to know. Didn't before.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Rajiv Lather »

The Malaysians dare not offend 10-15 heavies now searching for the plane. The natural corollary to it is, that they know how and why it began; but dont know where and how it ended; or will end.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Vayutuvan »

The link AmberG posted about MH370 sahdowing another plane has an interesting link to material from navymars
where there are course modules 1-18 for basics of navy/marines communications. The modules are called NEET modules. Introductory material for non-EEs.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

The news reports say that the oil slick that the Vietnamese found was ship fuel, not jet fuel.
e.g.,
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/10 ... -be-found/

or
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/10/world/asi ... -unknowns/
Similarly, an oil slick in the search area was determined to be from fuel oil typically used in cargo ships, not from the plane.
But maybe there is an overlap in fuels usable in the plane and in ships?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil#S ... sification

I don't know enough to figure it out.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Theo_Fidel »

UlanBatori wrote:Huh? No saar, CT was that plane dumped fuel in South China sea immediately during very first turn. On surface onlee. Cold temperatures - vaporization would be much << 100 percent. I don't think "dumping" is in atomized form (actually I have no idea how they do it) but I presume that it get dumped at extremely high rate, like a big valve opening below plane. It would come down like heavy rain over a width > plane width. Surface tension will cause formation of 1 slick / zone of many small slicklets that then merge over a couple of hours. Anyway, even in the case of oil rig blowout slick, the slick is not continuous: waves break it into globs of muck. Here not much muck, it was refined kerosene (if it was jet fuel). .
Fuel dump is a quite common maneuver.
No matter nozzle size, volatile fuel hitting air traveling @ mach 0.5 +/- will instantly atomize.
Here is one video of many showing the process.
Airlines do it over land, houses, cities, etc without any fuel being reported on the ground. All the time.

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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

Without much effort, is there some way to do this plot?

MH370 reached waypoint IGARI (7.62383N/103.67583E) and then turned (this is when it vanished off primary radar).

Suppose all the flying to the Strait of Malacca is nonsense (VAMPI, IGREX) etc.

Suppose the plane headed back to Kuala Lumpur (KLIA 2.7546N/101.7097E).

Suppose the plane continued on this heading till the fuel ran out. (leaving aside the two questions - why would the plane not head to a closer landing strip, and why did Kuala Lumpur secondary radar not spot the plane).

Where would the plane end up? I see somewhere in the South Indian Ocean, but haven't found a way to plot a constant heading course.

The theory would be, the plane had a problem, the plane turned around, set a heading to Kuala Lumpur (or some other landing strip?) and then the plane proceeded on autopilot on a constant course heading.

What is confusing us all is the seemingly deliberate turns to the Strait of Malacca, and the waypoints VAMPI, IGREX, etc. that it took. Assume that that was **some other plane**.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Philip »

This is a theory that I put forward some time ago,a catastrophic incident between a mil. aircraft and the MH flight.The incident of a secret US flight that crashed in the A&N islands some years ago,never reported by the US,and the alleged shooting down aircraft of TWA 800 by mistake off the US coast,due to a training missile,shows that such incidents do happen.However,the absence of any debris in the Indo-China Sea indicates that the aircraft never disintegrated and perhaps a cockpit catastrophe saw the aircraft dive in one piece.

However,sat capabilities are so advanced it beggars belief that no one knows what happened.The KH series can read a newspaper from space and therefore could easily distinguish the character of the huge floating debris,whether they were from the MH flight or something else.Is the world being led on a wild goose chase?

One incident,that of the low flying large passenger jet over the Maldives has not been pursued enough.If true,it conforms to the low flying,radar evading route of the MH flight across Thailand,Malaysia and Indonesia.There would be no reason to fly low over the Maldives unless a rendevous was planned,with the conspirators abandoning the aircraft and letting it fly on with the autopilot. Most of the passengers would've been sleeping and wouldn't have known what was happening.The other possibility is that the "hijack" ended up like the failed attempt aboard UA-93 ,to seize control by the passengers on the during the 9/11 attacks.This theory has also been discounted.We'll just have to wait until something turns up.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

Here's a slightly better theory.

We assume that whatever the Thai and Malaysian military radars picked up in the Gulf of Thailand and lost over the Strait of Malacca **was not MH370.

We assume that the INMARSAT pings are not mistaken, and so the plane was flying beyond 8:11AM Malaysian time.

Suppose at waypoint IGARI, the plane encountered a problem.

IGARI (7.62383N/103.67583E) is where the plane disappeared from primary radar and from Air Traffic Control.

From IGARI, the two closest places to land in Malaysia are:

1. Kuala Trengganu airport (Sultan Mahmood airport) at 5.381667'N/103.1063889'E
2. Kota Bharu airport (Sultan Ismail Petra airport) at 6.1681044N/102.2935116E

(using http://www.distancesfrom.com/Kuala-Tere ... nID=381880)

The Sultan Mahmood airport has a runway of 3840 meters; the Kota Bharu airport has a runway of 2400m. IGARI to Sultan Mahmood is 257 kilometers; IGARI to Kota Bharu is 222 kilometers.

If the plane diverted to Kota Bharu and then continued on autopilot till it crashed, I think it would end up far to the west of where they are searching in the South Indian Ocean, and would not be consistent with the INMARSAT pings.

If the plane diverted to Kuala Trengganu and then continued on autopilot till it crashed, it might just end up roughly where they are searching and be consistent with the INMARSAT pings.

But I dunno how to plot a 6000 km constant heading course from IGARI passing over Kuala Trengganu (TGG/WMKN) or Kota Bharu (KBR/WMKC) without a lot of pain.

(And it leaves open the questions - why didn't MH370 show up on Malaysian secondary radar, and Indonesian secondary radar, and what was the plane that the Thai and Malaysian military radar picked up?; lastly which airport would the pilot/co-pilot choose to attempt an emergency landing?)

PS: Thailand didn't see it fit to mention their radar track till 10 days after the plane vanished - they didn't think for a while that it was MH370. Also, I think discarding radar data with its primary source coming from Malaysia (and also Indonesia) is the safest thing to do. The simplest hypothesis about what it is that is embarrassing and has security implications for Malaysia and for Indonesia is that their radar systems suck.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ Thinking about it, if there was no hijacking, no malice on the part of the pilot/co-pilot, and all you had was MH370 last known position plus INMARSAT pings that tell you the plane kept flying to 8:11 AM Malaysian time and beyond, where would you place MH370?

The answer is, plot a constant heading course from where you lost contact with the plane to the nearest landing field(s) and extrapolate. The assumption is that something went wrong, the pilot tried to get to a place to make an emergency landing; and then something further went wrong, not enough to make the plane crash, but enough to disable everyone on the plane who could do something.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by UlanBatori »

Oh, well... all good CTs come to an end.. :((
But I am now as lost as MAS pretends to be. I still think it either
a) crashed in Malaysia/very close by.. or
b) landed in Maldives or some other IO island and ppl and cargo were transferred to a container ship. But by now demands must have been made, and there is no sense in this huge multinational tamasa in the south seas.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by Vayutuvan »

Something in my mailbox caught my eye which could be tangentially 4relevant here (if somebody wants to pursue categorization of Digital Earth images of the search areas - do they have an API to slurp their images through any kind of API?)

Astronomical Algorithm Powers Data Analytics Startup

This startup uses ML code from Berkeley.
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by UlanBatori »

See Enn Enn coming around to UBCNews CT#1
"It explains so many pieces that didn't fit together before," she said. "Now, if we have a scenario where something happened, the plane made a dramatic turn and dropped from 35,000 feet to 12,000 feet, this scenario would fit what a pilot would do in the event of a catastrophic onboard event, such as a rapid decompression, a fire, an explosion. That's what you would have to do, descend, get down and turn around and try to get back to an airport that could accommodate an ailing plane."

If the latest information is accurate, the theory of pilots trying to save the plane fits, said Mark Weiss, a former American Airlines pilot and CNN aviation analyst.
And then what? Plane flew at 12,000 feet all the way to the Antarctic? Everyone dead too fast to call the ground on cellphone from 12,000 feet? If they levelled out at 12,000, they survived, hain? But the plane may not have lasted, which means it crashed in Malaysia. Otherwise they would have thought of grabbing a cellphone and communicating, if all other comms were destroyed. So why cover up?
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by chanakyaa »

Search of Soviet Submarine K-129

The 1968 sinking of the K-129 occurred approximately 1,560 nautical miles (2,890 km) northwest of Hawaii. Project Azorian was one of the most complex, expensive, and secretive intelligence operations of the Cold War at a cost of about $800 million ($3.8 billion in 2014 dollars).
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

Another AMSA press release:
https://www.amsa.gov.au/media/documents ... _MH370.pdf (PDF)
24th March, 2014: 11 am (AEDT)
Planned aircraft departure times for MH370 search : Update 14
*

All times are expressed in Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time. Please note all departure times
are approximate.

Ten aircraft are involved in today’s search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.

Two Chinese military aircraft departed about 8.45am and 9.20am respectively.

A RAAF P3 Orion departed for the search area just after 9am.

Two ultra-long range civil jets departed about 10.10am and 10.30am respectively.

A second RAAF P3 Orion is scheduled to depart about 11am.

A third ultra-long range jet is scheduled to depart about midday.

A US Navy P8 Poseidon aircraft is scheduled to depart about 1pm.

The two Japanese P3 Orion aircraft are scheduled to depart after 4pm.
I estimate sunset in that area to be around 7:15 PM
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/sunrise.html

Why would the Japanese P3 Orions be searching in the dark?????????
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

Regarding what the French satellite saw:
A French foreign ministry statement said the objects were about 2,300km from Perth, but did not give a direction or say when the discovery was made.

It also clarified that the French authorities had passed on data in the form of "satellite-generated radar echoes" rather than images. Radar works by sending out radio waves or microwaves and listening for echoes that bounce back.

"France has decided to mobilise complementary satellite means to continue the search in the identified zone," the ministry statement added.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26705073
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by CRamS »

Guys, I have been scratching my head trying to understand why it is that Bayesian estimation (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26680633) is useful in situations like this, i.e., narrowing the search area for the plane. And let me show off a bit :-).

Basically, in Bayesian analysis, one has a prior, i.e., the prior probability of where the plane could have been. Of course, this could be complete ignorance and every location is equally likely. Then, one has what is called the likelihood function, i.e., the probability that the data observed arose from the parameter of interest, i.e., the location of the plane. Then, the posterior mean (expected value of the plane location is given by)

Posterior = x * Likelihood + (1-x)*prior

Initially, x is very small and hence prior dominates, but as more and more data is obtained, the prior looses its relevance and the Likelihood dominates, and eventually posterior approaches he maximum likelihood estimate. Of course, all this depends on how good the data is :-).

A_GuptaJi, am I roughly correct in my understanding, and please rap me on my knuckles if I am way off base :-)
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by member_28502 »

As far as I can see your posterior is not of the base , else all reading would have fallen off their derriere(s)
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Re: Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ A simpler result is: the Malaysians will contradict what they previously said is true with probability 1.
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