India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

[hnair]

So people are running with what an unnamed official of DAE said about Kerala and start off scratching any pet peeves?

- IIRC, after the high-hoopla '86 Gorbachev visit (when at the time 2X1000MW was first proposed), the DAE was looking at a lot of sites.

- "Commie-Commie Bhai Bhai, so Kerala was first preference of Soviets" bit of that article sounds hilarious. Soviet Union and its leaders, whatever it was, was known for its hard-nosed decision making. And they were quite close to the all powerful Delhi to indulge in such influencing games. Even if true, why did they not consider Bengal, which does not have the rotating Left-UDF electoral political system as Kerala and was more like a stable communist regime a la USSR at that time?

IIRC, DAE request for land caused a lot of debate at that time in Kerala. The main point of the debate was (as always in Kerala and will always be) acquiring enough land. The state is way too densely populated to get over that issue. There were all sorts of loonie members of Commie Parivar doing their usual antics. But key stake holders like Kerala Govt, state-level babudom and KSEB were all pro-reactors

The loony left can say what they want, but that doesn't mean anyone of import agrees with them. These loons act as emotional tampons for the Kerala government of the day, to absorb the social issues. Once their task is done, they are ignored and pragmatism pitches in quietly. Other than loony left, most of the serious public discourse is done by a handful of anti-nuke activists with some heavy academic backgrounds from abroad and in India.

eg: a prominent anti-nuke public figure, Dr RVG used to teach us in college and was a doyen of alternative energy in Kerala, who believes there are alternatives to nuclear (and actually did something about it by running ANERT). But I have never heard him indulge in crazy talk like "nuclear electricity is radioactive".

Bade-saar's point about thorium should be kept in mind. Not one person in Kerala has yet asked for royalties, as I heard being asked elsewhere for hydrocarbons. But any outside interest can plant that particular seed in Kerala public's mind, with anti-Kerala opinions like that being expressed here being used as crutches. All it will do is block betterment of all Indians. Why go down that stupid path?

[hnair]

Now if only I can get my Pineapple crop through Kerala customs in under 48 hours! I'm dreading my upcoming attempt in June/July. A few more sleepless nights. Sigh!

OT - Theo-saar, no dice!! Thrissur ones are the kings

btw, which department is giving grief to you at Parassala check post?

[Amber G.]

Be my geust.

But your peddling of idea that Radiation is good will be called out. And yes, everyone knows about the DOSE which is important. You are not the first to point out but yes you consistently ignore that.

Where has he posted that Radiation is good? Please point out.

Of course, for the record, dishonesty and shameful peddling of lies by Chaanakya is not good for any one. Let us wait to see if he is going to retract these kind of lies.

The shameful spreading of lies about irrational fear of radiation is not cool and harmful to nation.

This is echoed by Ratan Sinha (New chairman of AEC) in today's news item.

Priority is to remove irrational fears about radiation

Ratan Kumar Sinha, who was director of Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, took over as chairman of Atomic Energy Commission and secretary of Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) last week. His appointment comes at a time when India’s nuclear sector is facing challenges. Sinha, in an interview with Sanjay Jog, speaks on a number of issues. Edited excerpts:

What are your priorities?

The DAE’s programmes are well-defined. We are already progressing well on the stipulated growth path. In the near term, though, we’ll initiate more high-priority activities.

The first is to remove an irrational fear of radiation in the public mind. The common person tends to associate radiation with the catastrophe in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and is, hence, scared. Studies on the survivors of the two bombings (in Japan, 1945) and the persons exposed to radiation following the Chernobyl accident (1986) reveal consequences are far less harmful than what was postulated earlier. The nuclear plants, during their operation, contribute to hardly any additional radiation field to the environment and fulfil the conservative radiation limits stipulated by the regulatory authorities by remaining usually within two to three per cent of such limits at the plant boundary. We would educate the public and try to remove the unwarranted fear of radiation associated with nuclear plants.

<snip>

I will strongly recommend that BRF does not become mouth piece of worthies like Busbys and their worshipers.

[Amber G.]

Bade, Hnair - Thanks for some informative posts..

I think best is that decisions like where NPP ought to be constructed and who uses power generated by it, should be based on what is best for India as a whole and the decision should be taken based on facts and science and process should be consistent with our democratic process.

You select the venu which, for example should be at seismically stable, etc ... mines should be where the ore is ityadi ..and power is used where it is needed.

Udaykumar type tactics .., unnecessary politics should be play as little part as possible.

eg: a prominent anti-nuke public figure, Dr RVG used to teach us in college and was a doyen of alternative energy in Kerala, who believes there are alternatives to nuclear (and actually did something about it by running ANERT). But I have never heard him indulge in crazy talk like "nuclear electricity is radioactive".

That kind of debate is healthy.. Anil Kakodkar is helping Solar Energy in India..One needs science and logical minds vs demonizing or branding people that xyz is pro/anti anything and not going past that.

[Bade]

This may have been posted before, but gives visual documentation to the entire process of fuel fabrication. This B&W film brings old memories back, and this one is 50+ years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk8VO9LK ... re=related

[gakakkad]

This may have been posted before, but gives visual documentation to the entire process of fuel fabrication. This B&W film brings old memories back, and this one is 50+ years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk8VO9LK ... re=related

superb..thanks..

[merlin]

The 50% demand (yes unfair) could be as compensation for not allowing to build a new dam at MP. Just guessing.

As for NIMBY, did the GoK oppose nuclear plants or is it a few NGO assisted nuts ?

That I'm not sure about. But if GoK opposed the plants then by all means don't give them the electricity from it. What goes for Kerala goes for all states. Its not fair for only some states to take the hit in land allocation and for other states to piggyback on it and refuse to provide the land.

[vina]

Not really. If you see the objectives of Kudankalam, 970MW of the 2000MW was for TN and rest for the Southern states per the article linked above. Since there are three other Southern states, fair share would be 1/3 of the remaining. Another way it could be based on popoulation, area and what not. They could make a hardship case for more than that if they have woeful deficit or can show no chance of buildig other sources.
But demanding ~50% is not fair

Nope. TN & Amma spent political capital, take the risks in putting up the power plant while the Kerala politicos go ape sh*t in opposing it and the entire Mullaperiyar politicized fiasco is despicable (though predictably, they lost their shirts in court). You cant say "not in my backyard" , but then demand power at "concessional rates" or any rates at all from others. First take the hard decisions to get your house in order, let go of rhetoric and political grand standing and stop being "Parippu Vadas" and as someone else said "NIMBY", then you can talk sensible things like trading power.

Sure, trade power with AP (but AP traditionally overdrew power and brought down the grid mutliple times.. kick them out if they do it) and Karnataka by all means, but Kerala, I don't think so, atleast not for now.

[Theo_Fidel]

Vina,

By that logic should not the people who really gave up the land get to decide what happens to the power. People in TN are not even willing to listen to the locals now.

I'm really scratching memory cells now but Kudankulam was actually the last choice for NPCIL in TN. It has no transmission network, it has no industry, no fresh water, no large port or good roads, and is a hardship posting due to the brutal climate. The Russians in particular were quite reluctant. IIRC NPCIL pushed really hard for their other choices, First was near Kalpakkam, then near Nagapattinam and Kaveri water and even Bhavani reservoir location was proposed and preferred. They came to Kudankulam very reluctantly after all others said no. Kudankulam land owners were the only ones who said yes. In fact one of the key lessons of the entire KKNPP episode is that under no circumstance do you let NPCIL acquire your land and start the building process. Not if you don't want that bunch of ingrates to later accuse you of being an anti-national and then get the prime minister to diss you as being foreign influenced.

I even remember one of locations proposed was in Mutthomm near Kollachal, has a natural harbor and lots of fresh water from the Thamirabharani. The NPCIL representatives were literally chased out of town by a posse of women with broomsticks if memory serves right. I recall a picture of them in a jeep surrounded by women.

Putting a Nuclear plant in an area of excessive population density is never a good idea.

[chaanakya]

Be my geust.

But your peddling of idea that Radiation is good will be called out. And yes, everyone knows about the DOSE which is important. You are not the first to point out but yes you consistently ignore that.

Where has he posted that Radiation is good? Please point out.

Of course, for the record, dishonesty and shameful peddling of lies by Chaanakya is not good for any one. Let us wait to see if he is going to retract these kind of lies.

The shameful spreading of lies about irrational fear of radiation is not cool and harmful to nation.

Your post did not deserve a reply from me. But since you have directly named me and added attributes personally attacking ( though it is against brf rules, but nonetheless) I felt that i should point to at least a few of posts where you have shamelessly peddled the idea. Though a thorough reading of all your posts would make it clear to anyone , who is neither pro or anti , that you have tried to project radiation as something harmless and by talking of bananas along with wines and nuts umpteen times in a series of posts implied that it is rather good.A slew of posts are there on bananas.

A sample would suffice. He quotes so approvingly from Wiki.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1070862

Wiki says:

..very high background radiation area (VHBRA) having an effective dose equivalent several times in excess of ICRP-recommended radiation dose limits for radiation workers and up to 200 times greater than normal background levels. ... This high level of radiation does not seem to have caused ill effects on the residents of the area and even possibly has made them slightly more radioresistant, which is puzzling and has been called "radiation paradox". It has also been claimed that residents have healthier and longer lives.[3] On the basis of this and other evidences including the fact that life had originated in a much more irradiated environment, some scientists have questioned the validity of linear no-threshold model, on which all radiation regulations currently depend.[4] Others point out that some level of radiation might actually be good for health and have a positive effect on population based on radiation hormesis model, by jump starting DNA repair

[hnair]

What vina-saar, T Rajendar movie themes being used as lessons for application in energy sector? I mean, "revenge" cannot be the basis of a nation's energy policy

We got to get beyond judging these issues, based on kooky characters. eg: Fine gentlemen like Shree Vaiko, Shree Vatal Nagaraj, Shree Zakir Naik or Shree Owaisi (and that is just South) cannot be used to model our views on their respective states' official positions on different issues. At least not here in BRF. That is strictly infra-curve.

AmberG, the nuclear question has always been political. Koodankulam will come online and it is a national project with national funds spend on it. It has to. But unfortunately no amount of technical data will be acceptable in a political issue that evolved there. One needs a career politician, who can listen and understand the technical part as well as the emotional part to fix such issues. Highly unpredictable territory for anyone who sort of likes Lord Kelvin's "When you can measure what you are speaking about and express it in numbers, you know something about it.".

In political territory, there is no easy way to measure nor express anything in numbers. I am sure every babu from an engineering or science background had to deal with it after their training period at Mussorie

eg: if Galileo had asked his old student Cosimo II of de Medici family for advice on how to deal with the pointy-haired church authorities, Medici-dude would have asked him to go to the committee and say "have you guys seen my plan for the new spire?", instead of explaining astronomy. Better yet, if Cosimo wanted Galileo to focus on the new military compass he was working on rather than the church hearings, Cosimo himself would have visited the church authorities and casually pointed out the precarious condition of the drinking water mains that goes through Galileo's property.

That I feel, is what happened recently.

I heard a lot of hot-air in Trivandrum about Koodankulam's "bad health issues" but when I broached about why Kerala govt is not allocating funds for roads to be widened for evacuation (in case of *any* disaster), there is only silence. Internal city roads are pretty good, but currently there is only one two-lane national highway for evacuating 2 million plus folks in any emergency. So much for the concerns over my health

[rgsrini]

^^ All parties must to stick to the agreement, irrespective of political considerations. If Kerala was promised 1/3 of the total energy allocated to the non-TN southern states, then it must get 1/3rd. Otherwise, we will only be creating a new issue unnecessarily. We need to avoid bad blood between states. A straightforward and fair decision upfront, will eliminate the opportunity for troublemakers to blow it up into a big issue.

[Theo_Fidel]

If SRK can get the land for the new transmission line needed Hnair saab. And then land will have to be acquired in Kanykumari district as well for the transmission line. Good luck on that one.

[krisna]

why not thorium

knowledgeable folks may understand better--
1) Thorium not as dangerous as uranium,
2) produces more energy
3) less radioactive wastes etc.
4) less fissile than uranium
5) Uranium got a led start due to cold war and wars etc.
6) Thorium more plentiful than uranium on earth.

etc etc.

[Amber G.]

For context ..It starts with Chaanakya's, statement, which I believe is absolute dishonest.

But your peddling of idea that Radiation is good will be called out. And yes, everyone knows about the DOSE which is important. You are not the first to point out but yes you consistently ignore that.

Neela Calls it out and asks.

Where has he posted that Radiation is good? Please point out.

I add the following (and still stand by what I call dishonest and shameful peddling of lies by Chaanakya in the above statement)

Of course, for the record, dishonesty and shameful peddling of lies by Chaanakya is not good for any one. Let us wait to see if he is going to retract these kind of lies.

The shameful spreading of lies about irrational fear of radiation is not cool and harmful to nation.

Chaanakya and others. as I said, I stand by with what I said.

Instead of retracting his lies, chaanakya still continues with misleading statements ..

The question from Neela was where was " I peddling of idea that Radiation is good will"

The best Chaanakya comes out is my post http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1070862

and says:

.....
...., that you have tried to project radiation as something harmless and by talking of bananas along with wines and nuts umpteen times in a series of posts implied that it is rather good.A slew of posts are there on bananas.

A sample would suffice. He quotes so approvingly from Wiki.

Wiki says:
>>
..very high background radiation area (VHBRA) having an effective dose equivalent several times in excess of ICRP-recommended radiation dose limits for radiation workers and up to 200 times greater than normal background levels. ... This high level of radiation does not seem to have caused ill effects on the residents of the area and even possibly has made them slightly more radioresistant, which is puzzling and has been called "radiation paradox". It has also been claimed that residents have healthier and longer lives.[3] On the basis of this and other evidences including the fact that life had originated in a much more irradiated environment, some scientists have questioned the validity of linear no-threshold model...]<<

Gentle readers, if you have not or completely not disgusted .. let me just point it out ..

The post which is referred (I encourage it to read it, as it is nicely written) CLEARLY points to many sources including Science magazine, and wiki and it is clearly pointed out.

The quote is from wiki.

Isn't it rather silly to apply the term "so approvingly" for "quotes from wiki" as Chaankaya does?
(I may or may not agree with wiki, but wikl does not need my "approval" )

Can any one in his/her right mind think that I was peddling "radiation is good" from that wiki link
Specially when my post ends with my remark ..

Those who take NTLH model as fact should really look at these data points

Specially when others are thanking me for the informative post eg ..

Thanks for your consistent hard work Amber.

***
Chaanakya, instead of worrying about K40, or bed , you should really count how many times you referred
and endorsed Busby.. you still not have said that you were highly mistaken when you kept putting millions of radiation deaths from Fukushima without any basis, or kept insisting that 1 mSV dose will kill you.

Think about that for a minute.. /sigh/ Enough is Enough /sigh/

[Amber G.]

Some still keep singing old and thoroughly discredited tune ..keep barf bag ready...
Don't forget India's nuke

[Amber G.]

FWIW:

Research and Markets: Nuclear Market Opportunity in India 2012 A report ..
Nuclear Market Opportunity in India 2012
Scope of the report -
- Nuclear Energy Demand and Opportunities in India
- Current Status of Nuclear Power Plants and Proposed Projects
- Outlook of the Industry
Key Features
- Indian & Global Nuclear Market Outlook
- Non-Power Application of Nuclear Energy in Diverse Sectors
- Energy Market Analysis and Forecast
- Key Investments in the Nuclear Energy Sector
- Future Investment Needs Around the World in Next 4 Decades
- Status of Operational and Under Construction Nuclear Reactors
- Uranium Mines and Supplies in India
- Proposed Nuclear Energy Parks in India
- Issues and Challenges and Regulatory Framework
- Profiles of Key Players
In this report:
- Comprehensive Outlook of the Industry
- Research and Development Initiatives in the Industry
- Opportunities in Various Segments of the Industry

Key Topics Covered:
1. Executive Summary
2. Overview: Nuclear Market
3. Nuclear Science Application Overview
4. Industry Structure
5. Market Segmentation
6. R&D and Availability of Technology
7. Policy Framework and Regulations
8. SWOT Analysis
9. Opportunities
10. Issues & Challenges
11. Key Players
12. Outlook
Companies Mentioned
- NPCIL

[Theo_Fidel]

4) less fissile than uranium

AFAIK Thorium is not Fissile at all. Zero, Zilch,Shulzhya, Shunya, Nada, etc. It can be bred to U-233 which is fissile. You are either fissile or not. Period.

Maybe talking less fissionable? But that too is meaningless in nuclear power context.

[Bade]

Its not fair for only some states to take the hit in land allocation and for other states to piggyback on it and refuse to provide the land.

That is false logic, as land is not of the same value. Some land is more valuable than others. Site selection is based on many factors, not just user needs.

This whole DNA article is yellow journalism, I suspect TN and its supporters just want to create another excuse to keep all the power generated locally within TN. It is a fair argument to make, if no central money is used.

[chetak]

Its not fair for only some states to take the hit in land allocation and for other states to piggyback on it and refuse to provide the land.

That is false logic, as land is not of the same value. Some land is more valuable than others. Site selection is based on many factors, not just user needs.

This whole DNA article is yellow journalism, I suspect TN and its supporters just want to create another excuse to keep all the power generated locally within TN. It is a fair argument to make, if no central money is used.

Sirjee,

Who decides that some land is more valuable than others?

Why do not other states allot required land even now?

Why user needs do not matter?

Some south Indian states are sanctimonious in protecting their "rights" but just want to piggyback on other states. All reward and no risk policy does not a good neighbor make.

[Bade]

Tell me why land in Blr or Chennai or TVM is in crores and not so in MP or rural bihar. So there is a price difference, no ?

How many of you jingos will be ready for any plant (thermal, coal, chemical) next to your multi-crore neighbourhood, when a good number of users who live there would be the beneficiaries too. So the NIMBY is an all prevalent feeling and nothing to do with apparent or irrational fears of things nuclear alone.

So why not apply same rules advocated by some everywhere, and you will see pretty soon where it will lead to.

[negi]

It is actually good that TN folks are asking for their cut for whatever reasons; in the long run every state should seek to become more autonomous and not dependent on the center for housekeeping stuff. As it is centralised collection and distribution of funds by centre is literally a 'bandar bant' (remember the old story about a monkey and two cats where latter were fighting over a bread). TN today is best placed in terms of meeting it's energy needs and there is no harm if it wants to get a bigger share of the energy pie when it comes to selling that power to other states. No one stopped other states from thinking in long term . The parasites in Dilli who only come out with summer time table for power cuts in Haryana and UP to make sure that 10 janpath is lit up 365 days a year need to be told to smell the gobar.

[vina]

How many of you jingos will be ready for any plant (thermal, coal, chemical) next to your multi-crore neighbourhood

Well, the Kalpakkam complex , along with the FBTR (500MW), the current ones CANDU (235*2) and all the other research facilities IGCAR, DAE etc are located just outside the chi-chi posh south Madras areas (Adayar, RA Puram, Besant Nagar, Tiruvanmiyur, Valmiki Nagar etc).. in fact, the bulk of the IT/VITY and "development" is happening on Old Mahabalipuram Road, barely a stone's throw away. I don't remember anyone in Madras being bothered about it all these years (including the old Adayar types). Same is the case with Mumbai folks and all the BARC facilities at Trombay, including a few reactors!

If you really want to be "Nimby" , you can, especially if it is cost free and has no consequences. All I am saying is, being Nimby or not is your choice , but there has to be a cost associated with it. Now being Nimby is cost free, put the cost on the table and you probably will be a bit more rational.

[vina]

Vina,
By that logic should not the people who really gave up the land get to decide what happens to the power. People in TN are not even willing to listen to the locals now.

It is in the fairness of things, that South TN , particularly Kudankulam and it's surrounding environs, Tuticorin, all the industries there, Madurai , Tirunelvi and places get assured and quality power and they have the first right to power there and it is not wheeled out to Chennai! South TN has a big power deficit (North TN is better placed, Neyveli, Ennore , Kalpakkam etc.) .

I am all for Amma claiming all the 1000 MW that gets generated in the 1st stage and then thinking out sharing only when the 2nd and later stages get built and South TN power situation is good. If Vaiko types in Rajapalayam, and Madurai and Tirunelveli and Tuticorin and Kanyakumari need to go on hunger strikes and the usual tamasha and attendant circus (two legged animal and also media kind), I am all for it! . Amma gets her votes in South TN. She knows the hand that feeds her. Jai Ho!

Not if you don't want that bunch of ingrates to later accuse you of being an anti-national and then get the prime minister to diss you as being foreign influenced.

That is simply rich. All those years, those guys got power for "free" and whatever being generated elsewhere and now when the powerplant is at their door steps , some usual professional agitiationist busy bodies, a motley collection of opportunist turncoats and of course ever ready to fish in troubled waters (literally .. like for instance in the Italians shooting fishermen case) and sell out Church, cannot be given the veto at this late stage. They were listened to, fears addressed as much as technically possible , but if it is a "Medha Petkar" like "I oppose big dams.." kind of ideological position and safety and relocations are smoke screens, beyond a point, you have to give them the birdie and ignore. That is exactly what was done.

What will happen if those anti Kudankulam guys (especially the churches and loud speakers and bully pulpits) are cut from the grid I wonder. We will hear howls of protest and righteous indignation of course.

Putting a Nuclear plant in an area of excessive population density is never a good idea.

True for Kerala. I agree with that. I specially didn't mean Kerala's NIMBY attitude with regard to Nuke power, but this is not true for Kudankulam.

For Kerala, lets face it. They are not going to be able to have large power stations (nuke or conventional or anything) and they will have to import from TN over the long term and in significant proportions of their overall requirements. A more constructive and cooperative attitude is all that is required and a mindset change towards that is all that is needed. This political grandstanding and similar idiocies is shooting yourself in the foot.

[Neela]

Unlike what is being peddled, there is _no_ overwhelming opposition to the KKNPP. Even very close to the plant there are large sections who understand the need. . At the risk of sounding patronizing, I must add that even the 10+2 educated lot know that power is needed for the automobile workshop aand the small rice mill aaaand the VCD / DVD shop aaaand the small industries ....and just about everything else. . In one guys words - you must be cuckoo not to realize that we too have the same needs and desires for our families and kids.
To give an idea about shortage - a visit to Meenakshi amman temple in Madurai was done some time back. Came back to my uncle's house and took an afternoon nap. No power. 2 hours later I wake up in a f****n pool of sweat around my head and my hair is all wet as if I just had a bath. And this in a house that has a small garden around it with trees. Imagine the plight of a normal rick shaw driver who lives in a shack next to a main road in the city - must be like a furnace there.

Oh and btw, they aint no Taj Mahal in Kundankulam and neither is this place really known for "wanderung" as the Krauts would call it. So seeing someone off-colour there _is_ a bit strange.
We saw a picture of a backpacker type nutjob who was picked from Nagercoil. Now , how do you think they would have homed in on this fellow. Do you really think the police are f&&&&in clueless . They have their sources - everywhere! But once they find him, immediately laws start to kick in. The consulate / embassy must be informed and access given. Of course the embassy is going to defend the guy the pollice are after. Without evidence, the embassy will cry foul. Especially the uptight Oiros. And the media will be all over it. To me it does look like hard evidence was provided, embassy and GoI agree for the deportation and close the matter. You simple cannot kick out somebody that easily when you have issues a Visa. And that is how things work in the real world. Fantasizing and ejakking on the screen is all good but matters sqaut.

[merlin]

How many of you jingos will be ready for any plant (thermal, coal, chemical) next to your multi-crore neighbourhood, when a good number of users who live there would be the beneficiaries too. So the NIMBY is an all prevalent feeling and nothing to do with apparent or irrational fears of things nuclear alone.

So why not apply same rules advocated by some everywhere, and you will see pretty soon where it will lead to.

Been there, done that. Nuclear reactors, fertilizer plant, refinery, power generating station all nearby (some less than five kms. away as the crow files). No NIMBY feeling as far as I can tell.

[chetak]

Tell me why land in Blr or Chennai or TVM is in crores and not so in MP or rural bihar. So there is a price difference, no ?

Sirjee,

Land acquired for a social and national development purpose has to have per force different metrics than the mere commercial value of the land.

Some sacrifices are to be expected for the greater social good.

This is sorely lacking in some of TN's neighbors. Too much focus on crass commercialism and then expecting others to pull your chestnuts out of the fire is just a bit much.

[Philip]

At least 30 NGOs accounts frozen and 70 banned fro receiving foreign funds!
The GOI has at last cracked down on the NGOs with questionable anti-natoinal activities,who have been misusing the huge foreign funds flooding their pockets acording to media reports .The chickens are coming home to roost for the NGO rent boys and quslings,esp those behind the KKM agits!

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... anisations

Accounts of 30 NGOs frozen, 70 banned from receiving funds: Govt
PTI May 9, 2012, 02.30PM IST

Ramachandran|Govt|CBI|Accounts of 30 NGOs frozen
NEW DELHI: Government has frozen accounts of 30 NGOs and banned 70 other voluntary organisations from receiving foreign contribution following allegation of violation of laws.

Minister of state for home Mullappally Ramachandran told Rajya Sabha that 24 such cases have been referred to CBI while seven other cases have been given to state police for investigation.

Accounts of 30 NGOs have been frozen, 35 NGOs have been placed in prior permission category and 70 NGOs have been prohibited from receiving foreign contribution," he said.

The minister said a total of Rs 9,946.91 crore was received as foreign contribution by various Non-Governmental Organisations in 2007-08 and Rs 10,993.56 crore was received as foreign contribution by the NGOs in 2008-09.

Rs 10,352.07 crore was received by various NGOs as foreign contribution during 2009-10, he said.

[SSridhar]

Unlike what is being peddled, there is _no_ overwhelming opposition to the KKNPP.

Absolutely true. The double quick time in which the movement folded up after TN decided to take decisive action proves that. The PMANE agitation just collapsed in a matter of hours. Nobody in TN talks of Kudankulam any more except in eager anticipation of power flowing into the TN grid.

[chaanakya]

For context ..It starts with Chaanakya's, statement, which I believe is absolute dishonest.

But your peddling of idea that Radiation is good will be called out. And yes, everyone knows about the DOSE which is important. You are not the first to point out but yes you consistently ignore that.

Neela Calls it out and asks.

Where has he posted that Radiation is good? Please point out.

I add the following (and still stand by what I call dishonest and shameful peddling of lies by Chaanakya in the above statement)

Of course, for the record, dishonesty and shameful peddling of lies by Chaanakya is not good for any one. Let us wait to see if he is going to retract these kind of lies.

The shameful spreading of lies about irrational fear of radiation is not cool and harmful to nation.

Chaanakya and others. as I said, I stand by with what I said.

Instead of retracting his lies, chaanakya still continues with misleading statements ..

The question from Neela was where was " I peddling of idea that Radiation is good will"

The best Chaanakya comes out is my post http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1070862

and says:

.....
...., that you have tried to project radiation as something harmless and by talking of bananas along with wines and nuts umpteen times in a series of posts implied that it is rather good.A slew of posts are there on bananas.

A sample would suffice. He quotes so approvingly from Wiki.

Wiki says:
>>
..very high background radiation area (VHBRA) having an effective dose equivalent several times in excess of ICRP-recommended radiation dose limits for radiation workers and up to 200 times greater than normal background levels. ... This high level of radiation does not seem to have caused ill effects on the residents of the area and even possibly has made them slightly more radioresistant, which is puzzling and has been called "radiation paradox". It has also been claimed that residents have healthier and longer lives.[3] On the basis of this and other evidences including the fact that life had originated in a much more irradiated environment, some scientists have questioned the validity of linear no-threshold model...]<<

Gentle readers, if you have not or completely not disgusted .. let me just point it out ..

The post which is referred (I encourage it to read it, as it is nicely written) CLEARLY points to many sources including Science magazine, and wiki and it is clearly pointed out.

The quote is from wiki.

Isn't it rather silly to apply the term "so approvingly" for "quotes from wiki" as Chaankaya does?
(I may or may not agree with wiki, but wikl does not need my "approval" )

Can any one in his/her right mind think that I was peddling "radiation is good" from that wiki link
Specially when my post ends with my remark ..

Those who take NTLH model as fact should really look at these data points

Specially when others are thanking me for the informative post eg ..

Thanks for your consistent hard work Amber.

***
Chaanakya, instead of worrying about K40, or bed , you should really count how many times you referred
and endorsed Busby.. you still not have said that you were highly mistaken when you kept putting millions of radiation deaths from Fukushima without any basis, or kept insisting that 1 mSV dose will kill you.

Think about that for a minute.. /sigh/ Enough is Enough /sigh/

Well you gyrations are understood. The whole post does point to the common theme running in your posts. The ideas was to project radiation as harmless benign and good. And you wanted to cite where you have explicitly said so. If you dont agree with WIKI why quote it. Just say so.

In fact the quote from Science Mag by you has been highlighted by you to emphasie the point

The most interesting feature in all these cases is that the people living in these HBRAs do not appear to suffer any adverse health effects as a result of their high exposures to radiation. On the contrary, in some cases the individuals living in these HBRAs appear to be even healthier and to live longer than those living in control areas that are not classified as HBRAs.

Immediately followed by Wiki quote which says

some level of radiation might actually be good for health and have a positive effect on population

and you advise others to look at these data points. Unless you agree with it why do you quote and encourage others as well.

The problem is with your bananaspeak , a common theme is running in your posts that somehow radiation above legal limit is ok, fine harmless even for normal people who do not need to be subjected to radiation unlike those who chose to get radiation when benefit outweighs risk like x-ray or CAt or PET scans ro even working in such environment.

This is not only the best but also a pointer to your thinking which is summed up in one sentence. So stop talking and take things easy. Just talk to those who have consistently reduced legal limits for radiation exposure and make it high for general public if it is really good. Shamelessly touting such ideas may cut ice with aam junta.

[Amber G.]

Nuclear energy remains a non-negotiable option for India: Srikumar Banerjee, Former Head, Atomic Energy Commission

Excerpts:

Fukushima happened 25 years after Chernobyl," says Srikumar Banerjee. "Those were smooth years, there were no accidents or nuclear damage. But, environmental pollution grew exponentially, there was more carbon dioxide warming up the atmosphere, the ozone layer was disturbed."

"The world was not building new nuclear power plants, sure, but the world was definitely feeling the cost of fossil fuels. Naturally, nuclear energy became a lot more attractive. Not only is there over 95% capacity utilisation in a nuclear plant, it has the added advantage of being environmentally friendly."

That was the beginning of the talk of a nuclear renaissance. By the end of the first decade of the 21st century, China and India led the world in welcoming nuclear energy again as a clean, cost-effective energy option. China is building dozens of nuclear plants, while the 2008 Nuclear Suppliers Group waiver for India suddenly opened up the nuclear power world. The US, which had ceased to build nuclear plants since 1979, began to look at the option again.

While western countries are seeing a plateauing off or even a drop in energy consumption, it's the opposite in countries like India. But even in the US, while they may not have built new reactors after 1979, they continue to use their old reactors longer than the 40 years lifetime, they are now being used for 60 years or even longer.

"Fukushima was a shock. But it would be as much a mistake to shut down aviation because of a horrific accident, as it would be to let an accident like this affect the future of nuclear power," Banerjee is emphatic.

But even though there was no death as a result of radiation, Japan is looking at a clean-up bill of over $6 billion. Notwithstanding Banerjee's claims, many countries in the West, notably Germany, Austria etc have foresworn nuclear energy in the aftermath of Fukushima. More than that, nuclear energy is now often described as the dream that failed.

Not in India, says Banerjee. After Fukushima, Banerjee said Haryana, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh have all requested nuclear plants. Fukushima, he says, was less a quake problem, much more a Japanese problem. "Japan has never had a grid failure, so they did not factor that exigency. We, on the other hand, factor in grid failures into all our plans because it happens so often in India."

<snip>

"The mock drill we conducted at the site scared the people, because someone told them that this would happen to them when the plant went onstream," he says. For him, it's like doing the lifejacket drill when you get into a flight. That drill is necessary, even though you may not have an airline accident. Could they have explained their activities better? He concedes there.

Secondly, the "hot run" of the plant resulted in letting out a plume of smoke, which he says went according to plan and is strictly monitored and logged along with prevalent wind patterns. Even the district collector is given detailed evacuation procedures. These procedures spooked the locals partly because no one explained to them in detail and partly because they could be used by the activists at the site.
....

Banerjee's dreams are many. The Indian nuclear establishment plans to build light water reactors in a few years.

It plans to export 500 MW and 700 MW reactors to other countries. And at the back of every nuclear scientist's head is its holy grail, the fast-breeder reactor programme.

Talk to him about the nuclear dissenters, and Banerjee is quick to retort - the danger from nuclear energy is about the same as getting run over by a bus. He says the people who have to live through 10 hours of power cuts everyday are not the ones questioning the colour of power. That is the luxury of those who have lots of it.

[Amber G.]

Gem from Chaanakyaji.. (addressed to me)

If you dont agree with WIKI why quote it. Just say so...

The quote from wiki is there so people can judge it for themselves! It is laughable to suggest that every quote of wiki has to be followed by "if if I agree with or not)
(BTW, in that particular case I and any sensible person will agree with wiki as there is no controversy in what it said )

OTOH chanakyaji .. how many times you have repeated Busby (and similar characters) .. Let us forget wiki for a moment, do you still endorse ..

1,400,000 radiation deaths (or is it 400,000?) and nuclear explosions post Fukushima... You don't even have shown courage or intellectual honesty to even correct that kind of rubbish up-til now... Do you still think 1 mSV limit is downgrade of what "1000mSV:eek: in 1927" (per your claim) ? .

Let us see, if you again go in a tizzy cursing "bananaspeak" or show some honesty in correcting these and thanking me for educating you.

[Bade]

Land acquired for a social and national development purpose has to have per force different metrics than the mere commercial value of the land.

Some sacrifices are to be expected for the greater social good.

This is sorely lacking in some of TN's neighbors. Too much focus on crass commercialism and then expecting others to pull your chestnuts out of the fire is just a bit much.

Please be specific about which neighbour and why.

There are no links I could find that states a particular spot was chosen other than Kudankulam in South India, and then given up due to mass protests by people or the local government.

The reason I posted the Chavara and Aluva (Rare earths factory) link which dates to the 50s and 60s. So tell me when has at least GoK gone nuts and opposed any kind of nuclear facility within Kerala. Kaiga and the plant near Mysore also exists in Karnataka. So why this high horse attitude, when as recently as a few months back there were massive protests in TN with even the govt of the day playing its part.

[Amber G.]

why not thorium

Krisna - For some reason, thorium is in news in some main stream media ..
Typical stories:
Safe nuclear: India’s thorium reactor
Same blog : Safe nuclear: Let the thorium debate begin
WNYC: Is Thorium the Key to Green Energy?

NPR: Thorium A Magic Bullet For Our Energy Problems?
PBR (Pebble Bed Reactors) is one kind of reactor where there is virtually no danger of meltdown .

[chaanakya]

Gem from Chaanakyaji.. (addressed to me)

If you dont agree with WIKI why quote it. Just say so...

The quote from wiki is there so people can judge it for themselves! It is laughable to suggest that every quote of wiki has to be followed by "if if I agree with or not)
(BTW, in that particular case I and any sensible person will agree with wiki as there is no controversy in what it said )

OTOH chanakyaji .. how many times you have repeated Busby (and similar characters) .. Let us forget wiki for a moment, do you still endorse ..

1,400,000 radiation deaths (or is it 400,000?) and nuclear explosions post Fukushima... You don't even have shown courage or intellectual honesty to even correct that kind of rubbish up-til now... Do you still think 1 mSV limit is downgrade of what "1000mSV:eek: in 1927" (per your claim) ? .

Let us see, if you again go in a tizzy cursing "bananaspeak" or show some honesty in correcting these and thanking me for educating you.

Perhaps I can hold you to your gold standard.
Do me a favour and make a search for /1,400,000 radiation deaths/ with my name and tell me how many times I have mentioned it anywhere . What right you have to ask me to agree or disagree to some number you have pulled out of your m@&raf . If I remember correctly, those paras are not even quoited by me. Your attempt to talk about radiation is good and harmless was seen and exposed in many writings. You and your ilk all the time claim that there is zero deaths from radiation accidents (Chernobyl) and I just saw your post claiming there were 9 deaths. Well looks like lying is your profession. Of course Nuclear Industry would have its reason to do so and also those who are earning livlihood from it. Many research you mentioned seems to be sponsored by Nuclear Industry. I think , in TEPCo context, several news items are posted as to how Nuclear industries tried to influence the results or control information.

And perhaps you dont know there is equivalence when converting something to one unit though some may not have existed prior to its enactment. For example Fahrenheit and Kalvin

I have given a direct quote of your post where you have posted saying /some level of radiation might actually be good for health and have a positive effect on population /. And before you advise other to look at /these data points/ why dont you do the same. Let me see where I have written about it and what I said about it.

Anyway I hold that radiation emanated from such accidents cant be harmless or good just like banana as you try to portray all the time. External or internal exposures beyond /safe limits/ are not good for human beings unless benefits outweighs damages such as in cancer patients etc. Exposure to such radiation to general masses can not be acceptable it it is caused by accidents from NPP etc. Do you have the intellectual honesty to accept that I quoted you rightly? At least I have not read you disagreeing with the idea.

[Amber G.]

तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय .. countering ignorance with knowledge ..

And perhaps you dont know there is equivalence when converting something to one unit though some may not have existed prior to its enactment. For example Fahrenheit and Kalvin

Please do read <this post> AGAIN before trying the same old points.

True, one can convert Kelvin into Fahrenheit as they both measure temperature but it will make no sense to convert it into calorie or MeV (to measure energy of "thermal" neutron)

And it is idiotic to convert Fahrenheit into Sievert.
(even though some may call some places as radiation hot-spots ).

What Busby's did similarly was idiotic except it was many times more silly. This was already explained many times by GuruPrabhu, Bade, Mort, me. Virtually every paragraph in busby's paper posted by Chaanakya had gross errors.

It is incredible that one person is still stuck into coulomb is same as joule type nonsense. /

[Amber G.]

I have given a direct quote of your post where you have posted saying /some level of radiation might actually be good for health and have a positive effect on population /. And before you advise other to look at /these data points/ why dont you do the same. Let me see where I have written about it and what I said about it.
<..> Do you have the intellectual honesty to accept that I quoted you rightly? At least I have not read you disagreeing with the idea.

What you quoted was my quote .. quoting wiki which which said that some studies have shown that some (low level) radiation may actually be good....

Far cry from your dishonest diatribe that I said (all) radiation is good.

I do have intellectual honesty to note that you have maliciously misstated what I said.

I have still not heard (in spite of asking multiple times) how many people you think died in Chernobyl (or Fukushima) due to radiation poising ..The numbers you have given quoting Busby and such are in millions . do you agree with those numbers? Simple question.

[Mort Walker]

Some times wiki is good, other times one has to be careful of the references they site. I recently had multiple abdominal CT scans and according to wiki, the ionizing radiation equivalent is that of a full body dosage standing 2.4 Km from the Hiroshima A-bomb blast. If I was 2.4 Km from the Hiroshima blast, I would worry about the actual shock wave, prompt radiation and fallout. It may be true, but the lab technician informed me each scan was 21 mGy. I went through 5 times.

[Amber G.]

Do me a favour and make a search for /1,400,000 radiation deaths/ with my name and tell me how many times I have mentioned it anywhere .

As mentioned MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE users, the number is from Busby 's BBC interview
<ink.. Please do watch it> .. It is the same interview where he talks about nuclear explosions.

This was clearly articulated.. As you asked me to look at his paper, I did look and told you that his writing was rubbish.

If you don't agree with that kind of rubbish, just say so.. and perhaps as many advised, you should remove all that rubbish from brf.

You still can say if you think that was rubbish .. but to use inappropriate language as shown below is beyond pale. It is not Indic to call fellow brfite crude names.

..... What right you have pulled out of your m@&raf . ... Well looks like lying is your profession.

Per your suggestion I have reported the above lines.

I will not dignify other personal attacks and falsehoods with response.

[Amber G.]

Some times wiki is good, other times one has to be careful of the references they site. I recently had multiple abdominal CT scans and according to wiki, the ionizing radiation equivalent is that of a full body dosage standing 2.4 Km from the Hiroshima A-bomb blast. If I was 2.4 Km from the Hiroshima blast, I would worry about the actual shock wave, prompt radiation and fallout. It may be true, but the lab technician informed me each scan was 21 mGy. I went through 5 times.

Of course. As you said, that's why one should look at the
original sources and other sources.

FWIW (As you probably know and can be seen in any reputable source):

Theabsorbed dose of radiation (measured in Gy) is adjusted by a factor (depends on type of radiation - eg alpha are more dangerous for the same energy absorbed by gamma rays) and converted into Sv for biological effect... ( called equivalent dose)

This is then converted into "effective full body" dose by weighing factor the organ(s) ( critical organs are more important) which received the dose. This gives non-expert some idea of full body effective dose

For example, cancer radiation treatment may typically result into effective full body (equivalent) dose of about 2,000 mSV.. The individual organs may receive as much as 60,000 mSV

I have a post in Medical thread, about very promising cancer treatment using bind (with nano particles ) is finally looking very promising. One can give *very* high dose to a very localized place.