LCA News and Discussions

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Mar 2013 10:57

Shiv wrote:what you are implying is that to do a loop the airspeed has to be below a critical value, because above that value the plane will not respond to inputs from control surfaces?

All this means is that higher the airspeed, the larger the loop, lower the airspeed, tighter the loop, assuming in both cases the plane is pulling the max g allowed (and hence also alpha).

What the FCS like planes like LCA will do is prevent the g and alpha from exceeding the critical value. So if you pull a loop at 800 knots, you will draw a bigger loop than when if you pull at 400 knots.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Mar 2013 21:00

Understanding these technologies and development of the propulsion systems can be done in a better way, if the academic institutions, private industries, space agencies, DRDO, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and others join hands,” he said.

Not mincing any words on HAL, the DRDO said the company must augment the production facilities for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) -- Tejas.

“Today, HAL has 3rd generation production lines and we need modern ones to replace it. Tejas is a 4th generation aircraft and if we have the vision of exporting this aircraft one day, then rolling out quality aircraft is the key. The problems faced by Tejas are all related to auxiliary systems, be it the fuels lines or lightening arrester. Tejas Mk-II will be the future mainstay and we need to address quality concerns at the earliest,” Saraswat said.

BR news link

I sincerely hope GoI/MoD and CAG pays attention to these words

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Mar 2013 21:15

SaiK wrote:
“Today, HAL has 3rd generation production lines and we need modern ones to replace it. Tejas is a 4th generation aircraft and if we have the vision of exporting this aircraft one day, then rolling out quality aircraft is the key. The problems faced by Tejas are all related to auxiliary systems, be it the fuels lines or lightening arrester. Tejas Mk-II will be the future mainstay and we need to address quality concerns at the earliest,” Saraswat said.

BR news link

I sincerely hope GoI/MoD and CAG pays attention to these words

Seems to me someone has been kicking the can down the street.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Mar 2013 21:42

in the right direction.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 17 Mar 2013 21:48

krishnan wrote:http://jjamwal.in/blog/2013/02/indian-l ... lanes.html

some nice photos

Thanks for linking.

These series of pictures are from tejas.gov.in and the dump of military related pictures from different sources that i have in my collection. Tried giving credit everywhere possible, but might have skipped in some places.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Mar 2013 07:46

‘Tejas’ LCA project likely to be completed in 2015

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 18 Mar 2013 14:15

Good part of first quarter of 2013 is gone.... HAL where is LSP 8 or SP1..3?

Jingo is sad and mad

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 18 Mar 2013 20:39

Austin wrote:‘Tejas’ LCA project likely to be completed in 2015

That is 17 yrs after shakti tests 1998

That is 32/35 years since project inception

Assuming by 2015 we will have serial production

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Mar 2013 20:50

That is 12 years after it first flew - 2001....why did you deliberately forgot this ????

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 18 Mar 2013 22:25

Austin wrote:‘Tejas’ LCA project likely to be completed in 2015

From the link:

The country’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) ‘Tejas’ programme is now expected to be completed only by March 2015 .... the Rajya Sabha was informed on Wednesday.

Union Defence Minister A K Antony said in a written reply that the deadline for the ‘Tejas’ project, which was originally scheduled for completion by December 2008, was likely to be extended till March 2015 as it had already breached the December 2012 revised deadline.

Having seen - second hand - how answers to questions asked by members are contrived at in Parliament, I would want to know precisely what the Defence Ministry means by 'completed'.

nits · Post by **nits** » 20 Mar 2013 12:56

LCA Mk.2 Air Intake Wind-Tunnel Model - from Livefist

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 20 Mar 2013 18:42

AKA on LCA DELAY | IN RAJYA SABHA

(Press Release | Unedited)

There has been some delay in completion of project "Development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas". The aircraft is being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).The project 'Development of LCA' was sanctioned in August 1983. Project Definition Phase (PDP) of LCA was completed in 1988. In 1990, a decision was taken to undertake LCA development in two phases. In the first phase to build 02 Technology Demonstrators (TDs) along with development of critical technologies including Multi Mode Radar (MMR) and in the second phase to build Prototype Vehicles, integrate weapons, sensors, and flight testing leading to Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC).

Details of Phase-I and Phase-II of LCA development is given below:-

Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-I of LCA

Date of Sanction : June 1993
Original Date of Completion : June 1998
Actual Date of Completion : March 2004
Overall objectives of Phase-I was achieved with completion of 202 flight tests (123 hrs : 49 min) on 03 LCAs).
Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-II of LCA
Date of Sanction : November 2001
Original Date of Completion : December 2008
Revised Date of Completion : March 2015
Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) was achieved in January 2011 and Full Operational Clearance is likely to be achieved in December 2014.

The LCA project, which though got delayed initially, is currently progressing on a fast track and is working on aggressive time schedules.

Productionisation of LCA is already going on. First series production aircraft is likely to be ready by the end of 2013. Indian Air Force has already placed order for 20 LCA in IOC configuration and another of 20 LCA in FOC configuration.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Motilal Vora in Rajya Sabha today.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 20 Mar 2013 19:25

FSED Phase 1 sanctioned in 93 and completion target of 98! What were they smoking?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 20 Mar 2013 19:31

merlin wrote:FSED Phase 1 sanctioned in 93 and completion target of 98! What were they smoking?

Such timelines were given so as to secure funds from our politicos and babus, had they not done so ( and they still do

) we wouldn't even have what we have now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2013 20:04

PratikDas wrote: Details of Phase-I and Phase-II of LCA development is given below:-

Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-I of LCA

Date of Sanction : June 1993
Original Date of Completion : June 1998
Actual Date of Completion : March 2004
Overall objectives of Phase-I was achieved with completion of 202 flight tests (123 hrs : 49 min) on 03 LCAs).
Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-II of LCA
Date of Sanction : November 2001
Original Date of Completion : December 2008
Revised Date of Completion : March 2015
Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) was achieved in January 2011 and Full Operational Clearance is likely to be achieved in December 2014.

If LCA took over 20 years from "date of sanction" - the date it was conceived as a gleam in the eye was even earlier - in the late 80s - Project definition in 1988

From Aero India 2001, here is an image of our MTA. Has the project been defined? Has it been sanctioned?

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Mar 2013 20:19

The first funds were given for LCA of Rs.50 crores in 1979

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2013 21:00

vic wrote:The first funds were given for LCA of Rs.50 crores in 1979

I would like to read more about this. The HF 24 was retired in 1985 and a replacement aircraft was planned in 1979? At that time the only fighter with flying with FBW was F-16. I wonder if artificial stability, FBW, composites, multimode radar and modular architecture and HOTAS were planned for LCA in 1979?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 20 Mar 2013 21:15

People don't give an iota of thought before posting any garbage..leave alone LCA, even some of these posters would not have been conceived in that timeline.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Mar 2013 21:21

The planning for new generation aircraft had started. The funds in 1979 were used for setting up initial labs and capacity building exercise. After evaluating the efforts since 1979, formal sanction to launch LCA itself came in 1983. The problem of personal abuse on BRF is getting acute. We have self appointed defenders like Rohit, geeth etc who will abuse anybody who has something different to say. I have not made any reference to him in my post.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2013 21:33

LOL Geeth. In fact the words "Light Combat Aircraft" are generic. Gnat is an LCA as is MiG 21 and JF 17. Stating that it was started in 1979 is a statement that is designed to be critical because it suggests that this exact Tejas/LCA we have today was thought of in 1979 - which is not true.

Maybe there is a lesson in PR for Indian agencies here. The missile team have learned the lesson. What they need to do is to have multiple code numbers. In 1979 it was the LC-1. In 1988 the plan changed to XFI-12. By 1994 the project was codenamed NLP-7 etc.

If you look at Shornet that is being peddled as MMRCA today, it goes back to the YF-17 of 1975 that lost to YF-16. YF-17 became F-18 A/B and was then made 30% bigger, with some other changes as F/A 18. 38 years later it is still being flown and updated, and the F-35 is not yet there.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 20 Mar 2013 21:42

pentaiah wrote:
Austin wrote:‘Tejas’ LCA project likely to be completed in 2015

That is 17 yrs after shakti tests 1998

That is 32/35 years since project inception

Assuming by 2015 we will have serial production

It is an "technology demonstrator". IMO it will never be mass produced. Its technology will be outdated by then. And then there will be another "Integrated technology demonstrator " sanctioned in 2016 to be produced in 2020......we know the drill very well. Technology Demonstrator WTF.......is it a Science fair that you are demonstrating technology to kids?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 20 Mar 2013 21:50

rsingh wrote:Technology Demonstrator WTF.......is it a Science fair that you are demonstrating technology to kids?

Do you know what is the purpose of TD ???

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Mar 2013 22:01

^^^^^

Perhaps he meant demonstrator of outdated technologies.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 20 Mar 2013 22:06

^^^ Which outdated technology ???

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Mar 2013 00:35

Austin wrote:‘Tejas’ LCA project likely to be completed in 2015

Wags used to call it "Late Coming Aircraft" in the 90s.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Mar 2013 02:50

One of my friends called it "Lets Con the Airforce"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Mar 2013 06:30

Prem Kumar wrote:One of my friends called it "Lets Con the Airforce"

People from the Air Force I know used to call it "Latest Confusion in Aeronautics" and "khadi gramodyog" revealing a cross section of opinions about how educated Indians view Indian technology. "Anything done by anyone outside India is better" - is an attitude that is passed on from boss to employee, officer to worker, father to son in India. Interesting people we are. The only other nations I know of where people are so contemptuous of their own have a history similar to ours - of colonization and the creation of an elite class who have been taught to view "natives" and native things as inferior stuff allowing the export of raw material and import of finished gods. I am referring to South American countries, This mindset used to exist in Egypt as well. But Islam removed it IIRC

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 21 Mar 2013 07:25

LCA MK1 coming in 2015 is just too late....most of the planes in LCA MK1 class are on the verge of being phased out within next 5-7 years....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Mar 2013 08:37

abhishek-nayak wrote:LCA MK1 coming in 2015 is just too late....most of the planes in LCA MK1 class are on the verge of being phased out within next 5-7 years....

..famous last words
You are welcome to get back to me in 10 years and tell me I was wrong.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Mar 2013 08:39

abhishek-nayak wrote:LCA MK1 coming in 2015 is just too late....most of the planes in LCA MK1 class are on the verge of being phased out within next 5-7 years....

which planes in the LCA Mk1 generation (generation is the right term, since even the MiG-21 and F-5 are LCA Mk1 class fighters) are on the verge of being phased out?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Mar 2013 10:06

It would only take few things to make LCA 5th gen a/c.
- super cruise
- internal weapons
- stealth internals
and
- AESA will come in mk2
- plus other sensors

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Mar 2013 10:08

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2084 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-353,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-113,LSP4-68,LSP5-147,LSP7-29,NP1-4)
to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2106 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-354,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-70,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 21 Mar 2013 10:39

shiv wrote:People from the Air Force I know used to call it "Latest Confusion in Aeronautics" and "khadi gramodyog" revealing a cross section of opinions about how educated Indians view Indian technology. "Anything done by anyone outside India is better" - is an attitude that is passed on from boss to employee, officer to worker, father to son in India. Interesting people we are. The only other nations I know of where people are so contemptuous of their own have a history similar to ours - of colonization and the creation of an elite class who have been taught to view "natives" and native things as inferior stuff allowing the export of raw material and import of finished gods. I am referring to South American countries, This mindset used to exist in Egypt as well. But Islam removed it IIRC

i agree with shiv here. we make fun of indian made products when compared with non indian products even though they are at par with others. we seriously need to change this view. as a case study one can compare samsung galaxy s2/s3 with micromax 110/ 116hd. sorry for OT.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 21 Mar 2013 10:56

adityadange wrote:
i agree with shiv here. we make fun of indian made products when compared with non indian products even though they are at par with others. we seriously need to change this view. as a case study one can compare samsung galaxy s2/s3 with micromax 110/ 116hd. sorry for OT.

Agree with your thoughts but differ with you on your example. A116HD is comparable to Galaxy Grand and not S3.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 21 Mar 2013 11:13

^^Actually it's between the both of them. Have a look at the specs, it's well beyond the Grand.

There is another thing that needs to change as well - trying to place ourselves in a context created by someone else. Why is LCA being categorised as a 4th generation fighter? For India it's a 2nd generation fighter. Where are our previous generations other than the HF-24?

This is an insidious attitude that just swallows foreign contexts whole. Another example: when we made the switch from the .303 calibre, why did we fix on the NATO 7.62? Why not the Brit .280 for instance - a cartridge that was proven to be great for automatic weapons - BTW, the FN FAL was also chambered for .280, so was the Bren as the Taden Gun. Did we even consider what calibre made sense for us? When we changed from 7.62, why did we move to 5.56? Why not 5.8, 6 or 4.82?

We are where we are geographically, politically, culturally, technologically. Suck it up, and make our own context for it. Otherwise we will forever be playing catch-up.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Mar 2013 11:50

^^+2 from me to Jaeger for that post

I have learned an excellent expression -"swallowing foreign contexts whole"

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 21 Mar 2013 13:15

So, by the time it is inducted, it will be outdated? Why is then the IAF still waiting for it?

It has been built to be upgradable. There was an article recently (don't remember which newspaper) about the plans to field mk2 with upgraded avionics.

If every thing goes well it will be the stepping stone for elevating our aerospace industry to new standards is something that has been mentioned a zillion times by now.

Terms like Long term investment/capabilities take time to build and mature may ring a bell here?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 21 Mar 2013 13:34

You can wake up a person who is sleeping , but you cannot wake up a person who is pretending to be asleep

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 21 Mar 2013 17:55

^I guess then the only option is to shoot them.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 21 Mar 2013 19:11

Sagar G wrote:
rsingh wrote:Technology Demonstrator WTF.......is it a Science fair that you are demonstrating technology to kids?
Do you know what is the purpose of TD ???

Yep
- To make Bakis and Chinies soil their pants
- To suck money from garib Bharat
- As a carrier builder......how many people entered the project and retired without seeing the completion of project?
- To remind us that our technology is so advanced that it will take years to complete the project,therefore we need to buy fighters from Videsh
- To give Jingos of BR some thing to munch on