Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Dec 2014 04:09

Singha wrote:Armed drones would be more useful for tracing and attacking naxal units independently.
Naxals only gather in large no's for ambush and disperse fast.
They don't hold territory and wait for heavy govt units to show up..

That's why drones are a better bet against them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2014 07:57

Cosmo_R wrote:
Singha wrote:Armed drones would be more useful for tracing and attacking naxal units independently.
Naxals only gather in large no's for ambush and disperse fast.
They don't hold territory and wait for heavy govt units to show up..
That's why drones are a better bet against them.

If I were a Naxal leader, I would kill a bunch of villagers and claim drones killed them and that the state does not care whom it kills as long as they can impose their will.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 11 Dec 2014 10:03

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21501

Why again spend huge amount of money when HAL LUH is ready.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Dec 2014 10:13

IF you believe in BK, he has an interesting article.

We should get to know more in about 24 hours.

Let us see.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 11 Dec 2014 20:19

Russia, India to assemble 400 choppers a year in India

Russia and India have agreed to assemble 400 twin-engined helicopters a year in India, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said after summit talks between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Rogozin said the deal related to the Ka-226T, a light multi-role helicopter built by Russian Helicopters that can be used for search-and-rescue operations in mountainous areas.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/ ... KD20141211

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Dec 2014 20:22

Modi mentioned its for local and even for exports for civil and defence

Rogozin: India will produce at Mi-17 and Ka-226T

NEW DELHI, Dec. 11 - RIA Novosti. India is in agreement with the Russian Federation will produce on its territory Mi-17 and Ka-226T, and the cars of family "Kamov" will be produced up to 400 a year, told reporters on Thursday, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

An agreement on the issue of helicopters was reached after talks between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who passed on Thursday.

"There are two contracts. One - Mi-17, in which they (Indian side) really need, and the second - the Ka-226T. It's a big contract to build on the territory of India" - Rogozin said. It is planned to produce annually about 400 pieces.

Deputy Prime Minister said that initially, when India announced a tender for the helicopters of this type, the main competitor of the Russian aircraft was a helicopter "Eurocopter". However, he said, due to the unique characteristics of the Ka-226 and special requests of the Indian side the tender was canceled and it was agreed on the deployment of India's production of Russian cars.

Rogozin said that the helicopter will be in the sea and the mountain modification.

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20141211/1037744080.html

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 11 Dec 2014 20:38

More about Kamov 226T
Kamov website: link .

From aviastar .org: link .
(read all comments, too)

From in. rbth .com: link.
For some more info.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2014 20:45

Saw a Tu 142 takeoff from Bangalore 6 PM today. Passed over my house

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Dec 2014 22:20

I am in favour of building the Mi-17 and its deriavatives here. But why the Ka-226T? HAL has LUH, Tata (possibly) has the AW119Ke.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Dec 2014 00:20

indranilroy wrote:I am in favour of building the Mi-17 and its deriavatives here. But why the Ka-226T? HAL has LUH, Tata (possibly) has the AW119Ke.

They have a tie up with Elcom (part of Sun conglomerate) to make Ka 226 and Mi 17. From the looks of it, LUH might have to compete against locally made Ka 226 (Elcom) and Fennecs (Tata ?) by private companies.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Dec 2014 00:27

But why the Ka-226T?

Export is also part of the equation. Besides that it is a strategic investment ........... India is either paying for a ton of other things she got earlier (Akula, nuke stuff, etc) or for keeping Russia away from China or some combo of all that (and more).

I think NaMo will make more than $3 billion selling this pup and yet make sure that the LUH is part of the bigger picture.

However, I have always like the 226. I have always felt it to be a one-size-fits-all. Good design from a utility PoV, IMHO.

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 12 Dec 2014 04:05

shiv wrote:Saw a Tu 142 takeoff from Bangalore 6 PM today. Passed over my house

quite a sight isn't it? I see them on most days operating out of Chennai, the distinct roar, when they fly low overhead causes the windows to start rattling.

If anyone wants to get a good look at them, come to Chennai and find a house under the flight path to the airport.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 05:27

indranilroy wrote:I am in favour of building the Mi-17 and its deriavatives here. But why the Ka-226T? HAL has LUH, Tata (possibly) has the AW119Ke.

LUH has only one engine and AW119 has a ceiling of <20k ft. The Kamov's co-axial contra-rotating rotors give it the advantage of compact size, maneuverability, load efficiency and stability over traditional choppers among other things. Pound for pound, it is an excellent chopper for our needs, certainly better than the Fennec. It's stability will make it a great armed chopper to replace the Cheetah.

Most important, we need to give Russia a big deal to demonstrate our support and gratitude, simple as that. This is a great way of doing so with least damage to ourselves, the icing on the cake being Make in India in large numbers. I hope we get Izhmash to set up the factory in Gujarat in similar fashion.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Dec 2014 05:41

"We need to give Russia a big deal to show our support and gratitude, simple as that. This is a great way of doing so with least damage to ourselves, the icing on the cake being Make in India in large numbers. I hope we get Izhmash to set up the factory in Gujarat in similar fashion.

Not so. What is our 'gratitude' owed to the Russians? If they want to set up a factory in India and sell at market prices in India an export from India, great. But we don't owe them anything. We hope and expect that they will do so unsentimentally and for their own profit.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 05:51

^ Let's remember that without Russian support, our tanks and aircraft won't fly and our armed forces will be reduced to a provincial constabulary. They have given us priceless support at crucial junctions in our history and our values demand that we show our gratitude. There's no sentiment involved in keeping Russia happy and getting diamond roughs on a "preferential" basis, not to forget oil, gas and nuclear energy. To say we don't owe them anything is way off the mark.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 12 Dec 2014 06:55

^I see, so we have been equipping our forces for free right? How foolish of me to miss that. And here I thought we were paying billions for the stuff we buy from Russia.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2014 07:02

Today, yes. But we got tons of stuff under friendship prices.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 12 Dec 2014 07:21

And from what I understand, we kept a significant portion of their Mil-Ind complex from going extinct during their dark phase in the 90s, so as far as I see it, we payed back in full, unlike the other countries they have helped when the were the USSR.

Besides its not like they helped out of the goodness of their hearts. It was a geopolitical calculation, from which they had their own returns.

Regardless, in this day and age, they sometimes give us stuff that no one else will, but we pay for it through our noses and quite frankly, they can't make money on that stuff from anyone else without shooting themselves in the foot.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2014 07:34

Karan M wrote:Today, yes. But we got tons of stuff under friendship prices.

Well Pakistan got (and gets) things at friendship prices from the US - stuff that were not offered to India even at market rates. So there was a geopolitical calculus there.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Dec 2014 08:53

Karan M wrote:Today, yes. But we got tons of stuff under friendship prices.

As per Flight International, way back in 1979, the MiG-23 was offered to India at the price of 1.5 million pounds each..India wouldn't have been able to even buy a F-5E at that price.

So yes, the growth in the IAF in the 1980s was thanks to very affordable prices being offered with the MiG-23, MiG-27 and MiG-29..although in a way the MiG-29 deal came back to bite the IAF because it spelled the end of the Mirage-2000 licence production deal.

And those transport workhorses of the IAF, the An-32 were offered for 1/3rd the price of the De Havilland Buffalo and Aeritalia G.222 which were its competitors..the IAF got each An-32 for approx 2.6 crore rupees, when it was selected in 1979.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 12 Dec 2014 09:14

Kartik wrote:
Karan M wrote:Today, yes. But we got tons of stuff under friendship prices.
As per Flight International, way back in 1979, the MiG-23 was offered to India at the price of 1.5 million pounds each..India wouldn't have been able to even buy a F-5E at that price.

So yes, the growth in the IAF in the 1980s was thanks to very affordable prices being offered with the MiG-23, MiG-27 and MiG-29..although in a way the MiG-29 deal came back to bite the IAF because it spelled the end of the Mirage-2000 licence production deal.

One should note that the western model is a razor/blade model.

Until 1989, the russian model was technology transfer -- if you could absorb it.

Today everyone including India wants the western model (PC7 maintenance contracts, anyone?), because its a perennial cash/natasha cow. Only the blind will see the F16s not going from practically none to 100? Where is the criticism in the media?

If you think today's successful military industrial complex will want to see indegenous indian competition after the experience with china, many bridges are up for sale.

If your strategic objective is to generate glorious parades and flypasts, then the approach of importing basic trainers is perfectly fine. Otherwise, dont support killing the likes of HTT30s or IJTs.

Sooner or later "they" will want to make a yugoslavia out of India.

Things -- HTT,IJT or LCA -- all get delayed for a higher purpose. By some means or the other. And a blind denial does no one any good. The LCA is late, in main part, due to US sanctions. The HTT because the air force wanted no part in continuing the development in the 90s. And then you have to explain the PSU culture as it is tolerated and even the Baldev Singh type incidents. Blaming Russia is the game today, blaming US will be the game tomorrow.

The trade with Russia is good, it ought to be 100B instead of 10B. And if it means Ka226T by the hundreds, India has more than the capacity to absorb it. Export to Russia instead of Peshawar.

You cant yet export a mango to the US/UK. Giving up the fruits of decades of hard work of the ITyvity/ call center types for a dozen P8s or C17s will do no one any good.

They will carry water to maldives just fine. But beware the state department/Congress/Senate debates/restrictions if you actually wanted to use them for something.

The US is open about restrictions on Trenton being used in only certain ways. How about the Alamgir or the P3s or the F16s? Why is there no open guidance about what they can/not do? Caring about Pakistan's sensibilities?

In any case, there is no equal-equal re India/Pakistan nor US/Russia. Or should not be. Let the suitable be acquired from wherever available soonest, and leading to self sufficiency.

Make what you need, otherwise not much point in complaining. Atleast no justification for it. Buyers also cant be choosers in these markets. Just like the beggers.

Half of India is still restricted by inner line permits and restricted travel and china style group tours and section 370s. The goal should be to let Indians use what they "own" today, not show piece trophies regardless of lineage.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 09:53

Shreeman wrote: dont support killing the likes of HTT30s or IJTs.

This charade needs to be stopped. First, nobody is doing a better job of killing these duds than HAL itself. Second, when we have already built a 4.5 gen fighter, what is building trainers going to give us other than more HAL jobs? In our neighborhood, we need the PSUs to focus 100% on giving us knives while we buy safety pins and warm underwear from elsewhere.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 12 Dec 2014 10:09

Kind of disappointed with the light helicopter deal with Russia. I thought LUH was a HAL version which we could export to rest of world. No export customer is going to buy the Russian model - Made in india or wherever, because Russia will undercut HAL price. Let's see if they are willing to make key components like Engine in India - last I heard Brahmos engine is still been imported. Remind me how many Brahmos have we deployed so far?

Did Russian sign up to buy Brahmos? Are they going to import defense goods from India? No change in their policy. This was a raid to support Putin's folly, like times past - just my opinion, buy this and that otherwise not ammunition and fighter plane spares blah blah blah.

We 'earn' bulk of our money trading with US while Russia cozies up with Chinese - without whom Pakis will be downright toothless house cats. And our largest trading partner with whom we have 'positive' trade balance is US. Partying with Russia does not make economic sense, forget that it's now been run by a dictator.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Dec 2014 10:12

Kartik wrote: As per Flight International, way back in 1979, the MiG-23 was offered to India at the price of 1.5 million pounds each..India wouldn't have been able to even buy a F-5E at that price.

So yes, the growth in the IAF in the 1980s was thanks to very affordable prices being offered with the MiG-23, MiG-27 and MiG-29..although in a way the MiG-29 deal came back to bite the IAF because it spelled the end of the Mirage-2000 licence production deal.

And those transport workhorses of the IAF, the An-32 were offered for 1/3rd the price of the De Havilland Buffalo and Aeritalia G.222 which were its competitors..the IAF got each An-32 for approx 2.6 crore rupees, when it was selected in 1979.

India never really paid Forex in its buy for defence product from SU , much of it was either governed by Rupee-Rouble exchange or barter goods or long term credit offered by SU at rate of 1 -2 % interest , so the real deal was not in low price but the fact they never had to pay forex which was at a premium then in low double digit billion dollar.

Indira Gandhi deal to buy M2K came in for criticism from IMF as she had to spend forex iirc to tune of $ 3 billion and she defended saying something like even poor country had right to defend

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 10:17

Our position is such that we have to make friends with (or at least not p!ss off) both the Russians and Americans. If we can make it happen, nothing wrong with that. So far it's working out quite OK. Likewise, the Chinese make everything for the Americans from shower curtain rings to iPads but abuse them at the same time while supporting Russia.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 10:23

Austin wrote: India never really paid Forex in its buy for defence product from SU , much of it was either governed by Rupee-Rouble exchange or barter goods or long term credit offered by SU

We paid for a lot of our An-12s with Assam tea and a lot of them came from Russia with vodka in the jerrycans. Where else can you get a deal like that?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Dec 2014 11:49

Victor wrote:
Shreeman wrote: dont support killing the likes of HTT30s or IJTs.
This charade needs to be stopped. First, nobody is doing a better job of killing these duds than HAL itself. Second, when we have already built a 4.5 gen fighter, what is building trainers going to give us other than more HAL jobs? In our neighborhood, we need the PSUs to focus 100% on giving us knives while we buy safety pins and warm underwear from elsewhere.

And that is an equally big charade, if not bigger.

Pick any country in the world with a respectable aero industry. The designers and builders all started small and made incremental changes to get to where they got. And it does not take that much time. Choose any top designer or builder and see how they rose from trainers to advanced fighters and transports over the course of 20 years. All of them took up 3-4 year projects, in succession and succeeded all the way up. These guys make the aero industry not the other way round. And the faster we understand it and invest in their development the better we are served.

Only in India we have a dream of building 4.5th gen fighters, 20 Ton air lifters and 100-passengers jets in the first go. And the fact that we can build a 4.5 gen light aircraft combat aircraft makes ua feel that we shouldn't start anything "smaller" nhenceforth. Ironically it is called strategic thinking. Actually, it is just misplaced ego.

We should identify what ails our approach. And the problem is not taking small steps. In fact, that is a neccessity. The problem is the lack of competition and accountability. The private sector is just starting to provide some competition, but only a naive or biased person can think that the private sector can currently compete with the DPSUs on knowhow, infrastructure and experience.

In order to make India an aero-giant we need to identify where we can truly be in the next 20-30 years if wewere to take a series of small steps. In this step get the IAF and the manufacturers on board. Each step should be quantifiable and contended by multiple players. Select without prejudice the best solutions finished within the timeframe, and reward the developers with the chance to partake in the next logical step. See where we reach in 20 to 30 years, instead of the ad-hoc and dreamy-eyed approach that we currently employ.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 12 Dec 2014 12:08

Victor wrote:
Shreeman wrote: dont support killing the likes of HTT30s or IJTs.
This charade needs to be stopped. First, nobody is doing a better job of killing these duds than HAL itself. Second, when we have already built a 4.5 gen fighter, what is building trainers going to give us other than more HAL jobs? In our neighborhood, we need the PSUs to focus 100% on giving us knives while we buy safety pins and warm underwear from elsewhere.

Victor,

I have had my rant, poorly written as it was. So, I see your point. But trainers are neither knives nor safety pins or underwear. Another 100 wont fill the broader need. And civilian versions wont come the NM5 way. They have to be Hansa types.

Remember the Rs 1000/Hahvard education ranto from Cosmo? Aviation training is the same way. It may not be obvious now. But belated, poor, lame, whatever, the HTT and IJT have to come. Brazil, Korea, Turkey, Japan. There is no other path. You need a solution at each level.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Dec 2014 13:23

Victor wrote:
indranilroy wrote:I am in favour of building the Mi-17 and its deriavatives here. But why the Ka-226T? HAL has LUH, Tata (possibly) has the AW119Ke.
LUH has only one engine and AW119 has a ceiling of <20k ft. The Kamov's co-axial contra-rotating rotors give it the advantage of compact size, maneuverability, load efficiency and stability over traditional choppers among other things. Pound for pound, it is an excellent chopper for our needs, certainly better than the Fennec. It's stability will make it a great armed chopper to replace the Cheetah.

Most important, we need to give Russia a big deal to demonstrate our support and gratitude, simple as that. This is a great way of doing so with least damage to ourselves, the icing on the cake being Make in India in large numbers. I hope we get Izhmash to set up the factory in Gujarat in similar fashion.

nik wrote:Kind of disappointed with the light helicopter deal with Russia. I thought LUH was a HAL version which we could export to rest of world. No export customer is going to buy the Russian model - Made in india or wherever, because Russia will undercut HAL price.

There is no deal. Elcon, a Sun Group Company has a tie up with Russian Helicopters. This isn't something new, the framework for this was laid as far back as 2012.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Dec 2014 18:17

^^^
So is this like Pipavav redux from a couple years ago? They tied up with the Russians to compete in the frigate deal but the DDM screamed: 'Pipavav wins contract to supply Russian Navy with frigates!'.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 19:14

Indranil & Shreeman, there is absolutely no question that iterative development is a must. For whatever reason, we chose to jump ahead and think big in an attempt to catch up and that is what we have to deal with. Why HAL did not have trainers ready to replace Deepak and Kiran is not as important as the fact that it didn't. It may be communication, planning, corruption, stupidity, ego, all of these but the last thing we need is a he said she said type sh!t slinging match.

There is an extremely urgent need for fighters which the Rafales won't address by themselves. We need the LCA2 in service immediately and that is priority one. We are not Brazil or South Korea but more like Israel with our survival under imminent threat from all sides. It would be nice if we had the luxury but we don't. In the meantime, LCA1 and IJT are still not ready. Under these circumstances, would you rather have HAL focus un safety pins or knives?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 20:00

Thakur_B wrote: There is no deal. Elcon, a Sun Group Company has a tie up with Russian Helicopters.

Can't find anything on Elcon or Sun Group on G that links them to Russian Helicopters. Anyway, if it's made by Indians in India with majority Indian holding, it meets Make in India. By 'deal' do you mean directly with GoI?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Dec 2014 20:25

Dec 26, 2012 :: Russian Helicopters to Open Helicopter Assembly Plant in India

During the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to India, Russian Helicopters, a subsidiary of Oboronprom, part of Russian Technologies State Corporation, and Elcom Systems Private Limited, part of the Indian investment conglomerate SUN Group, signed in New Delhi an agreement to set up in India a modern industrial facility for manufacturing of Russian helicopter models, namely helicopters of the Ka- and Mi- brands.

The joint venture will have the capacity to produce key helicopter units and carry out final assembly of the machines as well as engage in ground and flight testing. It is expected that the enterprise will start with production of components for the multirole Ka-226T helicopter. The enterprise will serve as an industrial base for hi-tech Russian rotorcraft products in India

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 12 Dec 2014 20:52

In the context of Ka226T the only real topping seems like the contra-rotating rotors.

Is it a technical must have? (there are pros but are they compelling)

That we cannot achieve on our own?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Dec 2014 21:47

NRao wrote:Dec 26, 2012 :: Russian Helicopters to Open Helicopter Assembly Plant in India

During the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to India, Russian Helicopters, a subsidiary of Oboronprom, part of Russian Technologies State Corporation, and Elcom Systems Private Limited, part of the Indian investment conglomerate SUN Group, signed in New Delhi an agreement to set up in India a modern industrial facility for manufacturing of Russian helicopter models, namely helicopters of the Ka- and Mi- brands.

The joint venture will have the capacity to produce key helicopter units and carry out final assembly of the machines as well as engage in ground and flight testing. It is expected that the enterprise will start with production of components for the multirole Ka-226T helicopter. The enterprise will serve as an industrial base for hi-tech Russian rotorcraft products in India

Don't know how if this JV is still valid but the Sun group currently seems to be in the doldrums.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 22:27

ravi_g wrote:In the context of Ka226T the only real topping seems like the contra-rotating rotors.

Is it a technical must have? (there are pros but are they compelling)

Contra-rotating rotors may not be "must-have" but they are certainly compelling. The need for a tail rotor is eliminated, allowing for a much smaller footprint per kg. The neutralized torque provides for a much more stable gun platform. It can spin like a top and spray gunfire in a 360 degree circle in a couple of seconds. Loops, rolls and flying backwards, sideways and maintaining a line of sight and fire while circling a target are much smoother and easier. Bollywoodish yes but damn handy if needed. This is a hard-won technology and one reason I rooted for the Ka-50 Black Shark vs the Apache but no surprises that superior avionics and weapons won.

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 12 Dec 2014 22:57

abhik wrote:Don't know how if this JV is still valid but the Sun group currently seems to be in the doldrums.

You might be thinking of the wrong SUN Group. This is not the Maran family company. The Sun Group that owns Elcom is a investment and fund management firm - http://www.sungroup-global.com/

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 Dec 2014 23:30

^ Khemkas. Marwaris educated in America doing business with Russia. Columbia, Wharton, Hahvad. It's all good.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 12 Dec 2014 23:51

For any defense aircraft Industry to develop/flourish it needs

1. Profit
2. Competition
3. Skilled manpower

case in point

Boeing (Mcdoneld douglas) competes with Lockheed Martin which competes with Fairchild (Elbit systems now), General Dynamics, Northrup Grumman, Piper Aircraft and hunderds others!! Just in USA

USSR has Kamov, Mikoyan, etc

and so forth!!

How many fighter aircraft companies are manufacturing in India apart from Government? They need competition!!

Indian armed forces+police+crpf+BSF can easily absorb 4000 of both HAL made and Ka-226T Light helicopters!

Namo is trying to develop a healthy competition for our government based PSUs. Good stuff!

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 13 Dec 2014 00:46

Victor wrote:^ Khemkas. Marwaris educated in America doing business with Russia. Columbia, Wharton, Hahvad. It's all good.

From what I read and understand, kids of politicians - who grow up and rule the whole subcontinent - have studied in foreign universities since a long time. To name a few - Nehru, IG, RG, et all. It is all good since a long time already.