Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jan 2015 21:34

forget chinese, we can think exosphere based ranges

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 31 Jan 2015 21:59

What is the launch velocity the Agni 5 missile. With that and assuming a launch angle of 45 Deg we could calculate the expected height and using the time of flight reverse it.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 31 Jan 2015 22:06

Congratulations to Avinash ji! and also to DRDO and every scientist/engr/technician who has been a part of the IGMDP program. TO all the visionaries who started the program and those who continued in the later stages: Congratulations! a great service to the nation.

it reminds me of what Atri said a few weeks ago. EVERYBODY is in debt of Ma Bharati! few like Avinash Chander and DRDO get to pay back some of that debt. rest live on in that debt.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 31 Jan 2015 22:16

RoyG wrote:Singhaji,

It has a very similar launch profile to the scalpel.

This ICBM seems to tilt a little bit to save its TEL from launch blast.

Looks very similar to SLBM launch after it emerges from water.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 31 Jan 2015 22:25

Agni II's will be phased out in due time along with the Prithvi series. Served the country well. Agni IV/V for China and Shaurya/Agni I for the immediate neighborhood now. All we have to do now is get more energetic propellant along with ABM evasion technology and make the missile completely composite.

Still not completely happy though. Perhaps, after we test.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2015 23:32

PN, The trajectory is a family of ellipses with one focii at center of earth and the other at launch point. So the 'height' is the apogee. We cant use the parabola equations which would give erroneous results.

That is why I wanted a able of the three launches giving the apogee and the splashdown range. That is the footprint of the missile.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2015 23:38

Wiki Agni V

First test launch[edit]
On 19 April 2012 at 08.05 am, the Agni V was successfully test-fired by DRDO from Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa.[23] The test launch was made from the Launch Complex 4 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island using a rail mobile launcher.[24] The flight time lasted 20 minutes and the third stage fired the re-entry vehicle into the atmosphere at an altitude of 100 kilometres (62 mi). The missile re-entry vehicle subsequently impacted the pre-designated target point more than 5,000 kilometres (3,100 mi) away in the Indian Ocean.[25] The director of the test range, S.P. Das, informed BBC that all test parameters were met.[26] According to news reports the Agni-V was able to hit the target nearly at pin-point accuracy, within a few metres of the designated target point.[27]

Chinese experts say that the missile has the potential to reach targets 8000 km away and that the Indian government had deliberately downplayed the missile's capability in order to avoid causing concern to other countries.[28][29] The exact range of the Agni-V missile is classified.[12]

Second test launch[edit]
On September 15, 2013 India conducted a second test flight of Agni-V from the Wheeler Island off Odisha coast. The missile was test-fired from a mobile launcher from Launch Complex 4 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at about 8:50 am. The flight duration was little over 20 minutes and hit the pre-designed target in the Indian Ocean with an accuracy of a few metres.[14][30]

Third test launch[edit]
On 31 January 2015 India conducted a third test flight of the Agni-V from the Wheeler Island facility. The Integrated Test Range Director, M. V. K. V. Prasad, said: The missile, witnessed a flawless 'auto launch' and detailed results will be known after all data [is] retrieved from different radars and network systems.[31]

and

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Feb 2015 00:26

Singha wrote:yes I guess it was just my congi genes acting up. nobody would hot launch a 50t icbm with no bottom vent...the risks of exploding in the tube itself are scary.

this ss18 launch also clearly shows some kind of ring being blown off to the right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tec5yWqTxck

Yes a slow motion visual of it shows the accelerometers firing the motors right after the gas generator clears the entire missile out of the canister, whereupon it decelerates and triggers the motor firing. In the original youtube video from Saurav Jha, the generator is visible as a cylindrical object being discarded to the bottom right, between 8 and 10 seconds into the video.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 01 Feb 2015 02:47

Saurav Jha indicated that an all composite Agni I is being developed. With a more energetic propellant and lighter frame it will be even deadlier. I wonder if they will add a flex nozzle and due away with the fins so it can be canisterized as well.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2015 04:21

SaiK, Some fool comments on the facebook page "What about non-violence?" Once Indis has the TN everyone will become non-violence adherents.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Feb 2015 04:35

I don't understand why we should develop canisterized Agni-I, when we already have a canister and TEL for Shaurya?

Is it cost?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2015 04:39

Wooden round.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2015 05:55

I don't understand why we should develop canisterized Agni-I

No matter what, ultimately all is FUD. The more FUD the better. An Agni-I in some other form called something else only helps India. Logic is not part of this course. Thankfully.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 01 Feb 2015 06:13

Hmm, it could be another missile. Perhaps, in the same class as Agni I, which is more energetic during boost phase and stay exoatmospheric to avoid future laser and rail gun hits and also but built to penetrate ABM defences during reentry. Laser systems and and missile defence being developed by the US and China will pose a real challenge to Shaurya in about 10-15 years time despite its endoatmospheric hypersonic state. It will need to be built quickly.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Feb 2015 06:13

one should not go by version numbers and ranges when we talk strategic defence and products of total sanctions. what is the program, features, components, sub-components etc will have no direct link to project/product versions.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Feb 2015 07:48

If Agni 1 got new propolent, new casing, and maybe new guidance kit will it remain Agni 1? Heck they called updated Agni 2 as Agni 4!!

Its a new missile they are talking about.

But i guess its about time we started to standardize our IRBM and ICBM arsenal for the sake of maintenance and logistics. Limit the types to just few, instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6...... And IN versions.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Feb 2015 07:54

ramana wrote:PN, The trajectory is a family of ellipses with one focii at center of earth and the other at launch point. So the 'height' is the apogee. We cant use the parabola equations which would give erroneous results.

That is why I wanted a able of the three launches giving the apogee and the splashdown range. That is the footprint of the missile.

Problem is the splashdown range for Agni 5 is totally opaque we have to assume somewhere between 5500-5800 or should we say 5000 and calculate based on the apogee ? In this trial it was 600 Kms for a 5000 Km range. In the previous two they have quoted similar ranges but apogees of 800 Kms So this time the trajectory was probably further depressed by 200 Kms.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2015 08:14

If she delivers a basket of mangoes she can go 13,000 Kms.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2015 08:26

PN, The high apogee is called lofted. And the low apogee is depressed.
Essentially DRDO in three tests has proofed the AV such that its ready for induction.

For every range there are two paths: max Q that is aerodynamically stressing and max thermal that is max heating.
More than this you need to be inducted into missile designing!!!

As my Punjabi friends say Bhalle! Bhalle!

Thanks Avinash Chanderji and your team.

Hope the nation finds a need for you: Scientific Adviser to the PM!!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Feb 2015 09:30

exactly.. hopefully AK logic is running in some super computer at BARC and strategic places for the maal and subcriticals. the mirv+10k should make the world non-violent pretty much, especially keeping our border land in order.

blasting those giant chinese built dams should be in the agenda with strategic maals. every maal shall be programmed to take on a target with coordinates listed in their RV chipsets.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Feb 2015 09:37

was this linked here?

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/india/saura ... power.html
Maiden canisterised launch of the Agni-V ICBM marks India's arrival as a missile power

DRDO is confident that the combination of RLG-INS and MINGS, the latter being essentially a MEMS-based miniaturised magnetometer incorporated for redundancy, is capable of providing the 'necessary' accuracy at max range for the Agni V. The RLG itself has a bias drift of only 0.01º/h and this represents a significant improvement over older missiles in the Agni series which use a dynamically tuned gyroscope-INS coupled with a star-sighting system for navigation.

Indian missiles will now incorporate system on chip (SOC) based OBCs that weigh just 200 grams and boast 6-7 times greater processor capability. The embedded SOC concept requires very little power and gives far greater leeway in warhead configuration besides enhancing efficiency.

{like I said, we can program more things into this and MIRV in the future}

, its second and third stages have carbon composite casings. In the future, even the first stage of the Agni V will use carbon composite motor casings and that would take care of the issue of corrosion altogether and enhance overall structural integrity.

classic 'wooden round' i.e a canisterised missile system transportable by road and rail ready to launch on demand, with an almost maintenance free stowage and storage life of 10 years or so.

The Agni-V itself is 17 metres long and has a launch weight of about 50 tons with a 1.5 ton payload.

The Agni V's re-entry vehicle a.k.a warhead shown in previously released pictures may turn out to be rather manoeuvrable making things difficult for emerging Chinese terminal anti-ballistic missile (ABM) defences...All three stages of the Agni-V in any case have flex nozzles control systems which enhance manoeuvrability during flight.

Agni V as an operationally responsive space launch system which essentially refers to the ability to put small satellite payloads into orbit on demand from the military. In an age where China is proliferating anti-satellite systems, that is one capability that India must certainly have.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 01 Feb 2015 10:22

Why do we need A-1 and Shaurya together. Shaurya is half the weight and 50% shorter and has same range. Hopefully can put two on a TEL like the Iskander-M. Shaurya and Brahmos pretty much take care of any threat from pakis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2015 11:35

RoyG wrote:

AoA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Long time since I did stuff like this.

The missile clears the launcher in about 0.8 sec

That requires a force of 2.6 million Newtons reaching a velocity of about 150 kmph in 0.8 sec and a 5 G kick to start with - meaning that the missile "weighs" 250 tons in the first 1 second of liftoff

What do they use for a "gas generator"? Some explosive charge?

Just after emerging from the tube the missile farts a flame to the left and shortly thereafter it craps out a disc that flies off to the right. What are those, I wonder?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2015 11:42

I guess the gas generator is attached to the missile only and force of its
Fart inside the tube lifts the a5. Before first stage ignites the a5 in turn blows away the gas Gen section.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 01 Feb 2015 11:56

Singha wrote:I guess the gas generator is attached to the missile only and force of its
Fart inside the tube lifts the a5. Before first stage ignites the a5 in turn blows away the gas Gen section.

Correct.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 01 Feb 2015 12:27

dinesh_kumar wrote:^ There exists higher end versions of Tatra - probly for exclusive TEL duty.

For eg, a 10 x 10 version is shown on beml website, developing 435 bhp, against the vanilla 8 x 8 versions with 315 / 355 bhp.

http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Prod ... 20T816.pdf

Added further : A 12 x 12 Tatra - courtesy India Strategic website

http://imgur.com/FwBygYG

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 01 Feb 2015 13:32

abhik wrote: I don't think there is any Tatra truck that is capable of carrying the A5, I would guess that the tractor was changed from the regular civilian looking one (Volvo?) to a Tatra, may be same one that is in IA service for transporting armoured vehicles.

most likely its a volvo series

http://photodivision.gov.in/writereadda ... -7694l.jpg

A3/4 is on Volvo.

http://img.bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/1 ... 0743_1.jpg
A5 is on Volvo

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Feb 2015 14:17

The force design for the canister is an equivalent of 400 tons as per a DRDO requirement advert. 250 tons weight equivalent is well within design and for future heavier throw weights of any future missiles.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Feb 2015 15:04

dinesh_kumar wrote:
dinesh_kumar wrote:^ There exists higher end versions of Tatra - probly for exclusive TEL duty.

For eg, a 10 x 10 version is shown on beml website, developing 435 bhp, against the vanilla 8 x 8 versions with 315 / 355 bhp.

http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Prod ... 20T816.pdf
Added further : A 12 x 12 Tatra - courtesy India Strategic website

http://imgur.com/FwBygYG

The A5 weighs ~50t+ steel canister as opposed to the 3*3t Brahmos. The difference is almost an order of a magnitude.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2015 16:03

if we halt this video at exactly 2:36 we can see the gas generator of the polaris slbm dropping away underwater before the missile reaches the surface
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLXb9sS25Oc

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Feb 2015 17:59

Has anyone seen any pictures of Shivalik multi mode grenades in service ?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Feb 2015 18:14

Btw, as per Ananth Krishnan, Agni-V fell in Australian waters.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/561377455210905600
If its at a recoverable depth, Khan Chacha and friends would already be trying to get their hands on it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2015 18:21

Thakur_B wrote:Btw, as per Ananth Krishnan, Agni-V fell in Australian waters.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/561377455210905600
If its at a recoverable depth, Khan Chacha and friends would already be trying to get their hands on it.

I think he probably meant waters off Australia"

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 01 Feb 2015 18:24

Did any country "condemn" the test? It was routine for countries to condemn the tests in the past. Even Prithvi launches were condemned. Launching a ICBM in the past would surely have drawn sanctions and calling off ambassadors from the wealthy nations. India has certainly arrived in the world stage.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Feb 2015 18:45

Thakur_B wrote:Btw, as per Ananth Krishnan, Agni-V fell in Australian waters.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/561377455210905600
If its at a recoverable depth, Khan Chacha and friends would already be trying to get their hands on it.

The things must have been blown up into smithereens.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Feb 2015 18:47

I was reading up there are two types of gas generators - one uses steam and the other a mortar fuse. It looks like the one being used probably had a mortar fuze to generate the thrust to expel the missile out of the canister.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Feb 2015 18:49

shiv ji, i am thinking it must be some kind of protector to the first stage nozzle section from the cold start system/cap/motor/?.

btw, check out the accuracy precision of payload number here
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/po ... _agni5.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2015 19:35

The ss18 gas generator is the size of a small house.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Feb 2015 21:48

Singha wrote:The ss18 gas generator is the size of a small house.

Not really - if you see the ejection system of the Dnepr which was a modified SS18

At the base of the rocket, a special tray is installed. A black-powder mortar system is initiated at launch time to rapidly push the tray and rocket upward out of the Silo. Immediately after exiting the Silo, the Tray is ejected to the side by small rocket motors. At the same time, a series of five O-Rings that are located between the stages and interfaces are jettisoned. An instant later, the first stage of Dnepr ignites and the rocket takes off. Also, the oxidizer tanks of the vehicle are vented causing small clouds of dark gas to be released.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2015 21:50

The gas generator is basically a rocket motor in a case with the nozzle upwards. It has a fuel mixture that provides lot of hot gas. The first stage nozzle needs to be protected and has a disc like shield.

The F/S ignition ejects the disc.During the ejection phase, F/S exhaust cants to the left side and shows up as a flame noted by shiv.

GG will be in the cannister and should be replaceable item at the depot/base.

Sad that Hindustan Times has to paint error prone pictures despite being in Delhi. One would think they are located in DC to get their incorrect data from the US