India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 20 Jun 2020 13:33

Btw I was reading about lots of Chinese companies. Most of them have ties with the CCP. In fact, from what I read, CCP does not give much money to PLA. Instead they give factories and ownerships of companies to their officers.

It's like fauji foundation of Pakis. And most of these companies are lying, scheming, cheating, predatory etc shady organisations much like their people. Very keen to undermine every law of the land for profits and to push their agenda.

They also buy whoever and whatever that can, to rob you out of your money. From using every loophole possible to further their agenda. Many suspect they have already bought bureaucrats, judges, media and politicians.

And also their company culture is that a Chinese will never work under a Indian. No matter how much more experienced and senior that Indian may be. So they are racist as well.

Having said all that, I intention is that this galwan valley incident should be used by us to show the true face of Chinese companies to the public. Almost of them are crooked. Not a single one is good. This message needs to reach to everyone. Lastly, we aren't indirectly funding China. But rather we are directly funding PLA and it's sponsored terrorists through the Chinese companies.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Jun 2020 13:35

AdityaM wrote:If the Chinese control the finger 4 heights & ridge then our ITBP base becomes untenable since it is directly threatened from the heights.
Such oversight is by us is not possible.

It has happened.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 20 Jun 2020 13:50

Col Babu was CO of 16 Bihar - so I doubt if other units joined 16 Bihar in a retaliatory strike back. In some earlier Twitter feeds I remember reading that the surprise attack on Col Babu was not the only incident but Chinese had made sudden attacks across other points in the same region. Were these attacks a feint to deflect attention away from and draw forces away from their main intent - Depsang plains ??

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 20 Jun 2020 13:52

BCCI to review VIVO IPL title sponsor deal
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/spo ... 472552.cms

Good move, all other sports bodies and sports persons should follow. Indian Co.s should also step in.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 20 Jun 2020 13:54

AdityaM wrote:If the Chinese control the finger 4 heights & ridge then our ITBP base becomes untenable since it is directly threatened from the heights.
Such oversight is by us is not possible.

Noob question - how can one determine from satellite images alone that the structures on finger-4 ridge are Chinese, unless there is clear evidence of a trail of buildup from this ridge back to all the way to the Chinese base. I am no expert in reading Satellite maps - gurus pls care to comment.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 20 Jun 2020 14:06

Pangong Lake --> test India's resolve if Chinese occupied buffer zone
Galwan valley --> create distraction and feint to draw in attention and provoke India to offer resistance and establish that 2 countries are not at peace currently so any further action does not make Chinese look like aggressors
Depsang plains --> real Chinese intent
Pls don't threaten ban - not trolling - just trying to understand a series of seemingly random un-connected events.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 20 Jun 2020 14:12

ks_sachin wrote:
AdityaM wrote:If the Chinese control the finger 4 heights & ridge then our ITBP base becomes untenable since it is directly threatened from the heights.
Such oversight is by us is not possible.
It has happened.

I think we have our positions on ridges adjacent to finger 4 over looking it (as per ~~Colonel~~ Lt Gen Kulkarni on IndiaToday show).

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 20 Jun 2020 14:25

GOI statement

wig · Post by **wig** » 20 Jun 2020 14:55

After bloodshed, Army engineers toil 72 hours to finish Galwan bridge that triggered China

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/a ... 2020-06-20

excerpts

That 60-meter bridge, a crucial piece of connectivity that provides Indian military units sharper access to points near the Line of Actual Control (LAC), was finished on Thursday afternoon, with the Army testing it with vehicles over a period of two hours. At the local level, the bridge has come to be symbolic of hardened defiance despite extreme provocation and premediated violence by the Chinese side.

On Tuesday morning, just as the death toll in the brawl a few kilometres upstream to the east was becoming clear, the Army's Karu-based mountain division sent word to the Army Engineers unit asking them to speed up with the bridge construction without any delay.

The 'bailey bridge' is a type of portable bridge comprised of metal trusses for the rapid transit of military vehicles of all kinds, including infantry combat vehicles.

Local commanders felt the need to issue the specific instruction since the enormity of Monday night's events could have potentially thrown things out of gear on the ground, given the bridge construction was taking place no more than a couple of kilometers from where the bloodletting took place.

RamSuresh · Post by **RamSuresh** » 20 Jun 2020 14:58

What is this "insofar as there is some illegal occupation..." Seems like a very ambiguous statement admitting illegal occupation vs intrusion

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 20 Jun 2020 15:02

sooraj wrote:Prasar Bharati News Services
@PBNS_India
·
27m
Army Sources: Over 45 casualties on Chinese PLA side. Maj Gen level talks on to defuse Galwan situation. No Indian soldier unaccounted for-- No One Is Missing. No firing at all on Monday night.

This was tweeted while ten of our bravehearts were still in captivity. Who was lying - PB/Govt or Army?
The situation has been continuously downplayed by the official sources. Dont think we have the appetite for an escalation.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 20 Jun 2020 15:02

Isn't it possible that Indian troops are carrying GoPros/body cams in this conflict like they have been known to do during surgical strikes in Pak? I'm sure GOI has enough evidence of this nature on LAC and will use it appropriately. Obviously these aren't for public consumption.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 20 Jun 2020 15:03

alexis wrote:
sooraj wrote:Prasar Bharati News Services
@PBNS_India
·
27m
Army Sources: Over 45 casualties on Chinese PLA side. Maj Gen level talks on to defuse Galwan situation. No Indian soldier unaccounted for-- No One Is Missing. No firing at all on Monday night.
This was tweeted while ten of our bravehearts were still in captivity. Who was lying - PB/Govt or Army?
The situation has been continuously downplayed by the official sources. Dont think we have the appetite for an escalation.

What is the purpose of your self-flagellation?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jun 2020 15:05

Davidrock wrote:Is the news about Depsang true ?!

This is real bad news. Prob it’s time to escalate now. We should not let them build there.

Link on Depsang news, they have built up with "considerable strength" with tanks and artillery.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 475166.cms

The location is also strategic as Chinese side can use its units there to interdict and cut off road access to the DBO airfield as well as the Karakoram pass .Indian territory under threat includes the camp at Burtse and the Raki Nalla area while the buildup has been observed at a feature known as bottleneck, sources said.

Any Idea where this "bottleneck" feature is?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jun 2020 15:09

Larry Walker wrote:Pangong Lake --> test India's resolve if Chinese occupied buffer zone
Galwan valley --> create distraction and feint to draw in attention and provoke India to offer resistance and establish that 2 countries are not at peace currently so any further action does not make Chinese look like aggressors
Depsang plains --> real Chinese intent
Pls don't threaten ban - not trolling - just trying to understand a series of seemingly random un-connected events.

Please add (this is just in Ladakh, I'm sure they are not completely quite in AP, Sikkim etc either) :-
"Hot Springs" area
Chushul

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Jun 2020 15:22

To me, the most damning map is the one below. These are from Nathan Ruser's tweets. He claims that there are over 250 structures and most were built since May! If so, this is a Kargil-level intel failure.

Apparently, we have not been patrolling upto our LAC claim line for some years now. But that being said, allowing the Chinese to build inside our LAC claim line is just unacceptable.

If this map is correct, I don't buy the argument that the Chinese haven't intruded into Indian territory. They have & are very much sitting here.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 Jun 2020 15:26

alexis wrote:
sooraj wrote:Prasar Bharati News Services
@PBNS_India
·
27m
Army Sources: Over 45 casualties on Chinese PLA side. Maj Gen level talks on to defuse Galwan situation. No Indian soldier unaccounted for-- No One Is Missing. No firing at all on Monday night.
This was tweeted while ten of our bravehearts were still in captivity. Who was lying - PB/Govt or Army?
The situation has been continuously downplayed by the official sources. Dont think we have the appetite for an escalation.

It is factually correct. No is missing or unaccounted for, they knew they were in chinese custody. It doesn't explicitly say that no Indian soldiers are in chinese custody. It will be unaccounted/missing only if we dont know where the soldiers are .

The reasons to downplay the issue of chinese keeping our soldiers as prisoners, could be lack of appetite for escalation or to first ensure we get our soldiers back. If India takes no action on construction between 4th-8th fingers, we will know whether India has decided to live with changed status quo or willing to escalate

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Jun 2020 15:31

If the Govt/Army didn't disclose that Indian soldiers were in Chinese custody, I fully support their decision. Remember the jholawallahs who carried placards to #BringBackAbhinandan, virtue-signalling their fake patriotism?

What they wanted in reality was that India did not bomb PAF bases that night.

The same thing happened with IC814 highjacking. Breast-beating men & women, egged on by our media ensured that there would be no taking down of the highjackers. End result: Masood Azhar

We don't want our libtards, commies, soldout media to apply needless pressure on the Army and constrain their choices.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jun 2020 16:07

Dilbu wrote:What was the conclusion on the alleged incursion in Arunachal? Did they go back?

Another face off was reported Dibang Valley district, this one was more of the regular patrol standoff.
https://www.eastmojo.com/arunachal-prad ... -arunachal

More I read about AP, It feels like the western frontier of the US in 18/19th century with steady and continuous expansion by settlers (Chinese) on mostly virgin lands with natives not able to really oppose. The area they have sliced up already is probably in the range of 1000's of km^2 (if one goes by the official maps), and most of this land is not in the "not a blade of grass grows" type, but rather alpine or have thick tree cover. Hope we are paying more attention to it now.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 16:15

If the Chinese are doing Salami slicing.. so can we can. Just that it doesn't get told and people on the ground cannot make it out either.

Things gets reported about Chinese intrusion, as local people can the Chinese soldiers. If someone local considers himself indian, he wouldn't bother about Indian soldiers patrolling.. even if that land is technically on the other side of LAC.

Nothing is black & white on an unmarked border.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 20 Jun 2020 16:18

Petition to rename the Galwan river as Balwan river in honor of our brave soldiers

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 20 Jun 2020 16:19

That's this guy is beyond redemption nd highly compromised

"Through 15 rounds of the Joint Working Group and Experts Group meetings, China has refused to exchange maps with India in which both sides mark their perceptions of the Line of Actual Control (LAC) along the Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh borders.

This has allowed China to extend its writ deeper and deeper into India. Since the 1962 war, China has extended its control over the entire Galwan River and Chip Chap River valleys in Ladakh."
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2013/05/ ... a.html?m=1

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 16:22

What has stopped us to do the same?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 20 Jun 2020 16:31

They have fired salvos on the virtual front as well..

40,300 hacking attempts suspected from entities in China to cripple utility infra services

Between Tuesday to Friday, there were up to 40,300 hacking attempts, also referred to as ‘probes’, seeking to cripple the working of public-private service providers located in New Delhi and Mumbai, cyber police sources said.

Though the hacking attempts have been unsuccessful so far in doing any concrete damage, their activities are unprecedented, the sources said.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 20 Jun 2020 16:38

Manish_P wrote:They have fired salvos on the virtual front as well..

40,300 hacking attempts suspected from entities in China to cripple utility infra services

Between Tuesday to Friday, there were up to 40,300 hacking attempts, also referred to as ‘probes’, seeking to cripple the working of public-private service providers located in New Delhi and Mumbai, cyber police sources said.

Though the hacking attempts have been unsuccessful so far in doing any concrete damage, their activities are unprecedented, the sources said.

Unrestricted warfare. I expect to see media, some political parties, lawyers and others try to undermine the govt more actively. A massive cyber attack can criple the country. Like what happened in Ukraine due to Russian Cyber attacks and almost stopped the opening ceremony of winter Olympics in South Korea. And lots of other examples. I hope we are prepared because it will be ugly.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jun 2020 16:44

nam wrote:If the Chinese are doing Salami slicing.. so can we can. Just that it doesn't get told and people on the ground cannot make it out either.

Things gets reported about Chinese intrusion, as local people can the Chinese soldiers. If someone local considers himself indian, he wouldn't bother about Indian soldiers patrolling.. even if that land is technically on the other side of LAC.

Nothing is black & white on an unmarked border.

nam wrote:What has stopped us to do the same?

Question is where do we do this? Is there anyplace where we can surge our forces before the PLA react and counter? There has been an asymmetry in connectivity infrastructure through out the border (don't know is there is an exception this this anywhere), and we are only now catching up to what the Chinese have already achieved years ago. With this fresh build up they will be improving it further, not just roads there are also busy building airports/helicopter bases etc which will remain even after the PLA demobilises.

mody · Post by **mody** » 20 Jun 2020 16:45

What most people seem to be missing is that there is only 1 LAC. The Indian LAC. There is no Chinese LAC!!!!
Also, LAC stands for "Line of Actual Control" and it is exactly that. Indian LAC means India's LINE OF ACTUAL CONTROL.

There is no Chinese line. The whole nonsense about differing perceptions of LAC refers to where the Chinese think, our Line of Actual Control really is.
In this, they can step-in at any place, where we are not present and hence not in control and claim that LAC ought to be further west of that point, as there is no Indian presence and hence no control at that particular point.

It is totally unimaginable for me, that even after 22 rounds of talks to settle the border issue, since 1993, the Chinese have not even presented us with their map or specified as to where they think the boundary really is, or what really is their boundary claim. They have only been toying with us.

They can actually go ahead and claim any line that they want. They can even claim all of Ladakh if they want to. They have not specified anything.
All the discussion is purely about where India claims its line of control is and I am not sure as to why that cannot move east, as officially we claim all of Aksai Chin. Officially our boundary claim is as per the 1865 Johnson line or the Johnson-Ardagh Line in the Ladakh region. Though I personally think this is stupid and Nehru should have accepted the Macartney-Macdonald line, as proposed by the Chinese in 1958-59 and we would all be living happily today. The Macartney-Macdonald line was proposed by the British in 1899 to Imperial China, but the Chinese at the time did not reply or even acknowledge the receipt of the communication. The Communists are said to have decried this apathy on part of the Chinese government at the time and believed it was because they could not decide one way or another due to their weakness and Russian pressure.

Currently the situation is that Chinese can challenge us anywhere along our LAC and show that we are not really in control of that area and try and push the LAC westward, wherever they can. The fault lies with us. We either have to establish control over our entire LAC, demarcate the same on the ground with pillars if required, build permanent structures and patrol the entire area or settle the border issue with China as soon as possible.

For the current situation, we have to access the military balance accurately and then initiate any action. Victory should be assured, if we are to commence any direct military action. For the future, if the Chinese do not show any proclivity to solve the border issue, we have to start trying to push the LAC eastward and start grabbing areas and building permanent structure and permanent presence in those areas. Let the Chinese then figure out, if they want to simply defend or go on the offensive. The tables will be turned.
We also have to understand that every India-China faceoff is also a spectator sport. We have spectators in the front row seats, like Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Myanmar and Pakistan, as well as those watching from the VIP boxes in the balcony like the US etc.

If we can give the Chinese a tight thappad and have the boundary verified and demarcated from Lipulekh Pass upto Karakorum pass, the hurt of that Thappad will also show on the faces of the likes of the commies in Nepal and other Chinese stooges around Asia.

Unfortunately due to the intransigence and stupidity of successive Indian governments we are left just defending our positions, without any consequence to the Chinese.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 20 Jun 2020 16:56

Dr. APR
@drapr007
#BREAKING : PLA has lost more than 40 ranks in retaliation and We have captured many of their soilders when they were trying to built infrastructure at midnight in Galwan Valley
:General VK Singh (Ex Army Chief & Union Cabinet Minster

Many other people are also reporting it. Supposedly he gave an interview to some channel.

mody · Post by **mody** » 20 Jun 2020 16:57

Good article by P Stobdan in today's Hindustan time. Some good suggestion towards the end.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis ... IZUYL.html

zoverian · Post by **zoverian** » 20 Jun 2020 17:00

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1274295241562918914

#BREAKING : PLA has lost more than 40 ranks in retaliation and We have captured many of their soilders when they were trying to built infrastructure at midnight in Galwan Valley.

: General VK Singh (Ex Army Chief & Union Cabinet Minster)

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 20 Jun 2020 17:01

Absolutely correct, the only Chinese stratergy is wherever we claim the border, they will push that line few km's to 10's of kms inside our territory and claim that is there "perception". So even if you hypothetically give them laddakh, they will claim next vantage point beyond Ladakh inside India as their perception of the border. So unless we atleast smack this lizard and force it to cut its tail and run, it will not understand.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 20 Jun 2020 17:07

amar_p wrote:
alexis wrote:
This was tweeted while ten of our bravehearts were still in captivity. Who was lying - PB/Govt or Army?
The situation has been continuously downplayed by the official sources. Dont think we have the appetite for an escalation.
What is the purpose of your self-flagellation?

Same as yours... This is a forum to provide everyone's opinion and discuss the viewpoints. You are not forced to comment on every post.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 20 Jun 2020 17:18

putnanja wrote:
alexis wrote:
This was tweeted while ten of our bravehearts were still in captivity. Who was lying - PB/Govt or Army?
The situation has been continuously downplayed by the official sources. Dont think we have the appetite for an escalation.
It is factually correct. No is missing or unaccounted for, they knew they were in chinese custody. It doesn't explicitly say that no Indian soldiers are in chinese custody. It will be unaccounted/missing only if we dont know where the soldiers are .

The reasons to downplay the issue of chinese keeping our soldiers as prisoners, could be lack of appetite for escalation or to first ensure we get our soldiers back. If India takes no action on construction between 4th-8th fingers, we will know whether India has decided to live with changed status quo or willing to escalate

As per tweet by VKji, we had some of their troops in captivity too. Why should we make such statements in that case? Why is the news of India releasing their troops not publicized? The official narrative in this case is completely different from the Balakot situation. So i still maintain my opinion that we are not planning to escalate. Anyways, as you said, we will come to know in next two days.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 17:22

abhik wrote: Question is where do we do this? Is there anyplace where we can surge our forces before the PLA react and counter? There has been an asymmetry in connectivity infrastructure through out the border (don't know is there is an exception this this anywhere), and we are only now catching up to what the Chinese have already achieved years ago. With this fresh build up they will be improving it further, not just roads there are also busy building airports/helicopter bases etc which will remain even after the PLA demobilises.

Was there a road to Siachien, when we went over? The LAC is 3400KM long. Unless the Chinese have road to every KM on LAC and manned, there will be enough space for us to do our Salami.

If there are no roads, we can built it. Since the Chinese have broken the status quo, we are under no obligations to respect it.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jun 2020 18:04

@nam saar, FWIW:

Takshashila Institution

Our geostrategy team finds that under the current circumstances, replicating China’s actions elsewhere long the LAC and *then* pursuing mutual de-escalation might be a better tactical option for India. #galwanvalleyclash #China #chinaindiaborder https://t.co/oS8AgNRqGW

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 20 Jun 2020 18:37

Prem Kumar wrote:To me, the most damning map is the one below. These are from Nathan Ruser's tweets. He claims that there are over 250 structures and most were built since May! If so, this is a Kargil-level intel failure.

Apparently, we have not been patrolling upto our LAC claim line for some years now. But that being said, allowing the Chinese to build inside our LAC claim line is just unacceptable.

If this map is correct, I don't buy the argument that the Chinese haven't intruded into Indian territory. They have & are very much sitting here.

Agree, this is most worrying factor. If Govt does not react before winter, it will go down in history books as a failure.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jun 2020 18:46

This artificial deadline is unessecary, we must get it. But with the upper hand. In all out war we can get these places with artillery and an amphibious assault, we can cut off the supply road also but the tricky thing is we want do it without going to war. We don't have a consensus on going to war
When is enough is enough?

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 20 Jun 2020 18:56

AdityaM wrote:If the Chinese control the finger 4 heights & ridge then our ITBP base becomes untenable since it is directly threatened from the heights.
Such oversight is by us is not possible.

You cannot see the ITBP base from the finger 4 heights.
The finger 3 height (the ITBP camp is on the reverse slope) is higher than the finger 4 height.
The mountain top from which all fingers slope downwards to Pangong Tso, is about 500m higher than the tops of the fingers and India
occupies that. There is nothing to stop us moving onto that ridge either by climbing up from finger 4, or moving down from the mountain. However the knife edged ridge is probably a terrible place to be, so the PLA is probably on the reverse slope - like our ITBP camp
If we want to observe each other, we can use drones or helicopters. I'm sure the army knows what do to.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 20 Jun 2020 19:12

Btw I am prepared to wait out a month when everyone has forgotten about it assuming the worst and Chinese would have been convinced that all this was pacify our home public and we had planned nothing ( after getting their reports from their paid lakeys in media and political circles)

That would be the perfect time to execute whatever we planned. Lull the enemy into a sense of complacency and then strike with all effort possible within shortest amount of time when they least expect it. Maybe even invite them for talks/disengagement while we silently execute our plan.

But all of this is coming from a noob or keyboard warrior. Professionals in charge of the situation are 100x times better than what I can think of. So let's watch patiently because we already know that their intentions are good and unlike Cong and Commies they don't want to deliberately hurt India.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 19:31

There must be a valley from our side, which allows us to bypass the fingers directly in to Sirijap?

I would love to see the reaction on Chini faces, if we land up on North of Sirijap.