Indian Naval Discussion

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Mar 2010 11:17

Mauritius Builds Global Data Bank, with Indian Navy Help

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Mar 2010 11:22

HAPP, Tiruchi develops indigenous version of Anti Submarine Rocket Guided Bomb RGB 60 for Indian Navy

M.Ravi,(with tie) General Manager, Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project (HAPP), explaining the Russian Version of Anti Submarine Rocket Guided Bomb 60 (RGB-60) A Naval Ammunition on occasion of Ordnance Factories Day in Tiruchi on Thursday.

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 19 Mar 2010 11:34

shukla wrote:
Kavu wrote:Fastest way to get our subfleet numbers up?

Greece to resell German submarine: minister

http://www.expatica.com/de/news/german- ... 31670.html

Though I personally would like to see our next generation Diesel Submarines to be more than 3000 tons.
Thanks for the pics mate!

Guys.. newbie questions-

how long is the Admiral Gorshkov & the IAC expected to stay in service after induction (50yrs like the re-re-re-fitted & re-re-re-serviced Viraat )?

And is the Viraat expected to get decommissioned as soon as the Admiral Gorshkov enters service?? Or will there be a unique, albeit short, period in IN history when they'll have 3 operation aircraft carriers?

The Pictures were posted by another poster, not me. Though I do have some hand in militaryphotos.net posting Indian pics.
By 2030-2040, the Indian Navy just like India, is going to be a very very rich institution. Therefore I dont expect a compromise of a carrier(we can start from lifts) like Gorshkov can never get the operational tempo of even IAC-1, to serve the Indian Navy beyond 2035.IN can afford to replace the Carrier at 25-35 years mark If one sees IN training a new set of crew by 2011, then you can expect Vikramaditya and Viraat to serve side by side, if not Vikramaditya will replace the Viraat.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Mar 2010 12:51

Good news about the MBU rockets indigenisation.L&T have reportedly also made a modified launcher for the same-there was background display in one of the DEFEXPO pics.It could've taken less than 40 years to do so-after all the MBUs were on all our Petya cvlass light frigates from the '70s,on the Rajputs,Talwars,Delhi's,etc! I however feel that a longer range anti-sub hard kill rocket/missile than 5-6km is required for our frontline warships for the future.The MBU launcher can reportedly also launch missile decoys and anti-torpedo munitions too.Modern subs have "fish" that have ranges of upto 50+ km!

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 19 Mar 2010 13:47

SNaik wrote:Do you really think the guy who posted them on MP is the owner?

I have no idea ... I am just passing the buck... I expect Mods are experts handling such issues otherwise I could have linked all those pics here. But I dont want to create any problems for BR. But anyway I hope everyone linked those pics ... as it displays the complete make-over of it.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 19 Mar 2010 13:54

Guddu wrote:Sheesh the older pictures make it look like a rust bucket. Is the nice pix of Gorshkov or of Vikramaditya.

Old one is Gorshkov and new one is Vikramaditya --> at the end it is transition from Gorshkov to Vikramaditya, for which India has paid.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Mar 2010 15:16

Guys, when is shivalik getting commissioned, And any news on the follow up order for the class as 12 are planned as per wiki but only three have been launched.

What bout the remaining 9??

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 19 Mar 2010 15:51

As per the last report, Shivalik is slated for commisioning by Mid April and as far as the follow on order is concerned, our shipyards are already overflowing with orders. Where will we build another 12.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Mar 2010 16:22

There was some hint some time ago of another 3 Talwars to follow on to the second batch (9 in all).Is there any further news about this? L&T are supposed to be planning/building a new shipyard on the East Coast,north of madras.Unless private shipbuilding yards are entrusted with orders MDL,Garden Reach,HSL,CSL, and Goa cannot build the IN's total requiremnts.Moreover,these dockyards need to be massively modernised.At least two more major modern shipbuilding facilities should be established,one each on each coast,perhaps at Karwar and N.Madras and large orders placed for speed of construction and cost effectiveness.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 20 Mar 2010 03:47

Well, Russians were very actively bargaining for that deal during DefExpo2010, swearing to God and Motherland that these three will have VLS Shtil at last

John · Post by **John** » 20 Mar 2010 04:05

SNaik wrote:Well, Russians were very actively bargaining for that deal during DefExpo2010, swearing to God and Motherland that these three will have VLS Shtil at last

Isn't the 2nd batch supposed to have vl-shtil? Anyway hopefully the 3rd batch of Talwar if purchased has some design changes as well.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Mar 2010 05:45

Hindustan Aeronautics to go it alone on observation helicopter

Separately, the HAL sources confirm that India's navy has decided against buying additional Dhruvs and will look to foreign vendors for both its utility and anti-submarine warfare requirements.

The navy has Dhruvs performing utility missions, and had planned to buy dozens more to replace its Chetaks and potentially also meet an ASW requirement. However, the service has decided to go ahead with an international tender for both requirements and could issue a RFP this year, say HAL sources.

"The navy says that for their particular roles, the Dhruv is probably not suited. They are not considering it as a long-term solution at the moment and want to look elsewhere for their utility and ASW requirements," says one.

The service is likely to assess the NH Industries NH90 and Sikorsky S-70B Seahawk for its ASW missions, while Eurocopter's AS365 Dauphin is likely to be a leading contender for any utility requirement.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Mar 2010 11:15

Klaus wrote:Can't the IN operate the SU-33 from Car Nicobar or FORTAN bases instead of a/c carriers? From what I've heard, a/c based out of carriers is the least worry of the IN, the problem seems to lie in navalising existing designs and in submarine numbers.

Why SU 33 ? Our SU 30 should be able to do a decent job.

K

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 20 Mar 2010 13:31

is there any news on IAC1 ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Mar 2010 15:23

Wny is the IN against Dhruv?Well,I was reliably told that the helo failed to meet claims of prformance and even its size was largr than the hangars aboard some of our Dhruv slated ships.The HAL's answer to the IN?"Cut a hole in the hangar " to let the offending piece stick out! Anyway,Dhuv in the utility role will serve well I'm sure but for the nulti-role ASW requirment,we'll have to find another more capable helo.

John · Post by **John** » 20 Mar 2010 20:16

Philip wrote:Good news about the MBU rockets indigenisation.L&T have reportedly also made a modified launcher for the same-there was background display in one of the DEFEXPO pics.It could've taken less than 40 years to do so-after all the MBUs were on all our Petya cvlass light frigates from the '70s,on the Rajputs,Talwars,Delhi's,etc! I however feel that a longer range anti-sub hard kill rocket/missile than 5-6km is required for our frontline warships for the future.The MBU launcher can reportedly also launch missile decoys and anti-torpedo munitions too.Modern subs have "fish" that have ranges of upto 50+ km!

You are not going to get ranges of 50 Kms for ASW rocket launcher, these Hegehog like systems are mainly designed to saturate an area with charges to counter a submarine running silent. Hopefully we can license produce 90R rockets as well which are guided but do have shorter 4km range.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Mar 2010 23:33

John wrote: You are not going to get ranges of 50 Kms for ASW rocket launcher, these Hegehog like systems are mainly designed to saturate an area with charges to counter a submarine running silent.

In the good old days of the cold war there were a few "guided" ASW systems, with extended ranges

The French Malafon had a range of about 5 - 10 km

The US ASROC had a range of about 10 - 15 km

The Australian Ikara also had a range of about 10 - 15 km

The more recent Russian SS-N-14 Nato code name "Silex" has a range of almost 50 km

I suppose that all these systems must be working with a ASW helicopter or MPA

K
K

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Mar 2010 10:58

<Armchair admiral speculation>

Can we not look into developing a "ballistic light-weight torpedo" for extended ranges - 50KM+? Upon detection of a sub at these ranges (say the sensor is an ASW helicopter), the approx target co-ordinates are passed on to the ship, which launches this torpedo. It would have a booster rocket that would take it on a ballistic profile through the air with a splashdown near the target sub. Upon entering the water, the torpedo would initiate a scan with its seeker. Because the torpedo was air-launched from the ship, the submarine doesnt know it is being attacked till its too late (unlike a torpedo launched into the water from a ship today, which provides a submarine much more reaction time).

Basically the end-game characteristics of this torpedo would be the same as an air-launched torpedo from say a P8I.

This might have to be launched from inclined launchers or VLS - so it would need more space than an RGB 60. But more lethal.

NPOL has developed light weight torpedos. We also have significant expertise in ballistic missiles. The basic technological building blocks are available. Need some jugaad to combine them.

Pros & cons??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Mar 2010 11:05

there is a klub version that does this very thing, mount a small torp as the warhead of a klub missile. I always wondered why many navies moved away from the idea and didn't field a follow up version. (you can check the list in kersi saar's post)

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Mar 2010 11:38

Thanks Rahul & Kersi D. I read the Wiki links - curious why further variants werent deployed after the 60s - 70s. One possible reason might be that the sonar seekers on torps back then were limited in range, so that a sub could sneak away in the time duration between detection and splashdown. This was mentioned in one of the articles. Maybe the technology was ahead of its time back then.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 21 Mar 2010 11:45

there are plans to launch the 7.5m hstdv using a Agni-1/2 first stage solid booster (?), the torpedo can be mounted similarly leaving the sub detection from P-8's to underwater sensors

the missile reaction time and torpedo range (from the last known sub fix) are tied so having just a bigger booster may not be sufficient

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 21 Mar 2010 14:09

Rahul M wrote:there is a klub version that does this very thing, mount a small torp as the warhead of a klub missile. I always wondered why many navies moved away from the idea and didn't field a follow up version. (you can check the list in kersi saar's post)

WHO IS THIS KERSI SAAR ?

K

John · Post by **John** » 21 Mar 2010 17:31

Prem Kumar wrote:Thanks Rahul & Kersi D. I read the Wiki links - curious why further variants werent deployed after the 60s - 70s. One possible reason might be that the sonar seekers on torps back then were limited in range, so that a sub could sneak away in the time duration between detection and splashdown. This was mentioned in one of the articles. Maybe the technology was ahead of its time back then.

Exactly a SSN at full dash could easily cover 1 nm by the time ASROC's torpedo splashes into the water, Mark 44 just does not have the speed to catch up with a receding submarine.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Mar 2010 17:38

Kersi D wrote:
Rahul M wrote:there is a klub version that does this very thing, mount a small torp as the warhead of a klub missile. I always wondered why many navies moved away from the idea and didn't field a follow up version. (you can check the list in kersi saar's post)
WHO IS THIS KERSI SAAR ?

K

some BRFite.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 21 Mar 2010 18:56

Indian Navy To Survey Islands of Mauritius

NEW DELHI - The Indian Navy will assist Mauritius in conducting a hydrographic survey of the island nation for about four weeks beginning March 17, an Indian Defence Ministry release said.

During the last four years, the Indian Navy has conducted about 10 hydrographic surveys in Mauritian waters, including those for Mauritian capital Port Louis harbor, Port Mathurin in Rodrigues Island, Carajos Cargados Shoals and Agalega Island.

Harbors and designated sea areas around the islands also will be covered in the survey.

The Indian Navy has declared that it has to defend its economic and strategic interests, which it says includes the Indian Ocean and rim countries. In 2007, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said, "India has the potential and the capability to be a significant maritime player. I would even venture to say that the Indian Ocean could, in fact, be India's new 'Silk Route.' ... The Indian Ocean's littoral extends from South Africa to Australia."

The Indian Navy has previously conducted survey works along the coasts of Mauritius and Seychelles.

China also is trying to establish strategic links with Indian Ocean rim countries, Defence Ministry officials said. In addition to the Coco islands in Myanmar, China is building a naval base near Maldives in Marao, which is made up of 1,192 coral islands.

"The regular presence of Indian naval survey ships in Mauritius has generated a swell of goodwill and further reinforced the strong links between the two countries," the Defence Ministry release said. "The crew of the survey ships have not only been involved in surveying uncharted waters but have also endeared themselves to the local populace by participating in community-building exercises during their short visits to the harbor, providing assistance in reaching supplies to far-flung islands and acting as goodwill ambassadors."

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 21 Mar 2010 21:46

RKumar wrote:MUST SEE PICS OF Admiral Gorshkov Vs Vikramaditya

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost4821907

These should be added to BR site of course with the permission of the pictures owner .... MODs pls check it...

did anyone notice the Vikramaditya in Hindi here
http://i42.tinypic.com/90ouao.jpg

D_Prem · Post by **D_Prem** » 21 Mar 2010 22:14

RKumar wrote:
MUST SEE PICS OF Admiral Gorshkov Vs Vikramaditya

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost4821907

These should be added to BR site of course with the permission of the pictures owner .... MODs pls check it...

Amazing pictures indeed!, btw when is the re-fit expected to complete?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 22 Mar 2010 10:50

L&T gets $215 million order for 36 high speed interceptor boats

MUMBAI: Larsen & Toubro or L&T said that the Defence Ministry of India has awarded a contract worth Rs.977 crore for design and construction of 36 high speed interceptor boats for the Indian Coast Guard, an initiative taken by the government to strengthen coastal security.

The interceptor boats will feature aluminium-alloy hull construction with water jet propulsion to enable quick response which is vital for such applications. The interceptors will also be able to operate effectively in shallow water that will be critical for near shore action. The boats are expected to increase our coastal security considerably.

The design of the boat is being carried out in-house by L&T at its state-of-the-art ship design center, a part of L&T 's Heavy Engineering Division. The boats are planned to be constructed at L&T's existing shipyard at Hazira, and at its new shipyard coming up at Katupalli near Ennore.

vina · Post by **vina** » 22 Mar 2010 11:57

While on VikAd/ Adm Gorshkov, compare what we went and got finally with what the Brazilians did with the Foch / Sao Paulo . Frankly the Brazilians seem to have done a better job, with a full CAT capable carrier with good AEW capability, something which the VikAd is going to have very limited capability.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Mar 2010 12:51

so did anyone notice the AG seems to have a LST/LCAC type well on left side of stern?

I think we could use to launch small lcac/boats for marcos units maybe? or to directly and safely
land people on the ship deck via boat instead of climbing up rope ladders which is not possible
for women, kids and civilians esp in rough seas.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 22 Mar 2010 18:15

Juggi G wrote:Stealth Warships to get Deadlier
Project 28 Corvettes : India to Tender for Composite Technology for Superstructure

The Swedish Navy Visby-class corvette, Helsingborg. Its builder, Kockums, will bid to supply composite technology for India's Project 28 corvette programme.

The above is 17th Dec 2009 report. I was going thru Feb 2010 edition of techno focus(DRDO). It is on Composites. On page 4, it is mentioned that Resin Film Infusion is developed by R&DE(E) and is equivalent of HEXPLY/SPRINT which is used on Visby Class..

Now if we have developed similar technology, why do we need to import the same....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Mar 2010 18:20

The main problem in ASW in the littorals is the range and accuracy of ASW sonars given the kind of littoral sea waters experienced.Thermoclines,muddy waters,etc. all pose difficulties.The short range MBUs ,with alternative munitions for anti-missile purposes,are good for their range,but modern warships require a complete range of weaponry to deal with the threat of subs.The most important sensor is actually the ASW helo,which can detect a sub with its dipping sonar at long distances from the waship/task force/convoy.It is why subs these days are equipping themselves with anti-helo sub-launched SR missiles.Once such a definite contact is made,via data link,the warship can launch a long-range antisub missile/torpedo like that of the KLUB ASW variant or other weapon systems like Medvedka.

Russia's recent disclosure of anti-submarine warfare (ASW) missile development and deployment reveals a substantial ASW capability. The RPK-1 Vikhr, Purga ASW RPK-2 Vyuga, VA-111 Shkval ASW, UPRK-3 and UPRK-4 Metel, URK-Rastrub, RPK-6 Vodopad and RPK-7 Vodopad-Mk, and the Medvedka are among the ASW missile systems that are or have been employed by Soviet, and more recently Russian vessels. The ASW's employed both nuclear and conventional warheads, and were both warship- and submarine-based. The missiles had a maximum range of between 23 km and 50 km.

Read more: http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Military- ... z0iuUNP8CU

Here is a page from Freidman's classic ,World Naval Weapon Systems",on the RBU/Medvedka (the ultimate RBU with a guided homing round).

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4S3h ... on&f=false

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Mar 2010 02:15

John wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Thanks Rahul & Kersi D. I read the Wiki links - curious why further variants werent deployed after the 60s - 70s. One possible reason might be that the sonar seekers on torps back then were limited in range, so that a sub could sneak away in the time duration between detection and splashdown. This was mentioned in one of the articles. Maybe the technology was ahead of its time back then.
Exactly a SSN at full dash could easily cover 1 nm by the time ASROC's torpedo splashes into the water, Mark 44 just does not have the speed to catch up with a receding submarine.

John: yes - that would have been a limitation in the 70s. But the situation is different today:

a) Take the Ikara stats - booster speed is 713 Kmph. So, the time duration between detection to torpedo entering water is a little over 4 minutes for a 50 Km range. Lets round it up to 5 minutes. An Akula at full speed can cover 5.5 Km in 5 minutes.
b) Today's torpedo sonars have a much longer range
c) An SSN at full dash is easier to detect than a lurking SSN. So, the roving ASW copter can provide real-time updates to the ship
d) Torpedo would make a parachute assisted landing into the water to reduce probability of detection

So, in today's scenario, a salvo of such boosted-torpedos with real-time guidance would make life very difficult for an SSN. My take is that technologies have evolved that would make this weapon relevant today, though it was not relevant in the 70s.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Mar 2010 19:14

Great read from Kaisar Tufail - account of Pak air (non) support to naval ops in 1971..

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/201 ... 1-war.html

Very professional, unemotional account...Rare among Pakis, also Indians!

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 23 Mar 2010 19:33

Ship rams into Coast Guard vessel in Mumbai harbour

MUMBAI: A private ship rammed into a Coast Guard vessel in the Mumbai Harbour here Tuesday evening, an official said.

Though details of the accident and the number of casualties were not immediately available, the official said all efforts were under way to save the Coast Guard ship, which has apparently suffered serious damages in the collision.

Despite repeated attempts, Coast Guard officials in Mumbai and New Delhi were not available for comment.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Mar 2010 21:35

Philip wrote:Wny is the IN against Dhruv?Well,I was reliably told that the helo failed to meet claims of prformance and even its size was largr than the hangars aboard some of our Dhruv slated ships.The HAL's answer to the IN?"Cut a hole in the hangar " to let the offending piece stick out! Anyway,Dhuv in the utility role will serve well I'm sure but for the nulti-role ASW requirment,we'll have to find another more capable helo.

It has to do with the all-up weight, the volume available for fitting in ASW equipment, range of operations and endurance. A 5.5 ton class helicopter from any other maker in the world will not meet the IN's requirements, so desist from making it look like the fault lay in the Dhruv itself. The fact that the IN is looking for a 10 ton replacement for the Sea King's shows how ill-fitting a 5.5 ton Dhruv is in that category. Also, the story of "cut a hole in the hangar" was mentioned by Chetak I think, as a way of showing how some HAL guys were unaware of the needs of the Navy. It wasn't "HAL's answer". It was just an opinion cited by some engineer and such ignorance is common everywhere.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2010 21:38

Tamang wrote:Ship rams into Coast Guard vessel in Mumbai harbour

MUMBAI: A private ship rammed into a Coast Guard vessel in the Mumbai Harbour here Tuesday evening, an official said.

Though details of the accident and the number of casualties were not immediately available, the official said all efforts were under way to save the Coast Guard ship, which has apparently suffered serious damages in the collision.

Despite repeated attempts, Coast Guard officials in Mumbai and New Delhi were not available for comment.

Hindusthan Times says the CG vessel sank.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Mar 2010 22:06

Kartik wrote:Also, the story of "cut a hole in the hangar" was mentioned by Chetak I think, as a way of showing how some HAL guys were unaware of the needs of the Navy. It wasn't "HAL's answer". It was just an opinion cited by some engineer and such ignorance is common everywhere.

The IN had trustingly sprung a very large bundle for the development of the Dhruv.

Said opinion was stated publicly and officially at an important meeting so it was rightly taken as the official view. It wasn't just isolated ignorance but collective ignorance. It was a take it or leave it attitude of the HAL that killed the goose.

Well, now they know!

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 23 Mar 2010 23:35

[/quote]Hindusthan Times says the CG vessel sank.[/quote]

Is that sabotage... I wud be very concerned if CG lives were lost... also I wonder why the heck our mariners can not get to know if they are gonna collide with a ship...dont they have any radars...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Mar 2010 23:55

sawant wrote:Hindusthan Times says the CG vessel sank.

Is that sabotage... I wud be very concerned if CG lives were lost... also I wonder why the heck our mariners can not get to know if they are gonna collide with a ship...dont they have any radars...

sawant ji,

The poor Coast Guard guy seems to have been tied up alongside!!
All the radars in the world would not have saved him.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Coast-Gua ... 22433.aspx

Coast Guard vessel sinks after collision with ship off Mumbai Coast

First Published: 19:14 IST(23/3/2010)
Last Updated: 20:40 IST(23/3/2010)

A Coast Guard ship sank after a private merchant vessel rammed into it in the Mumbai Harbour on Tuesday evening, officials said. No casualties were reported.

The collision took place at the commercial Indira Dockyard in Mumbai.

"India Coast Guard Ship (ICGS) Vivek was undergoing refit and was berthed at a jetty. A private merchant vessel while berthing rammed into the Coast Guard ship," sources in the armed forces in New Delhi told IANS.

"The collision was very intense, following which the Coast Guard ship sank. So far, there is no report of any causality," the sources added.