J & K news and discussion

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 24 Jan 2011 10:01

It is sickening to see that BJP has de facto become the gate keeper of nationalism mainly due to the failings of non BJP parties. It would have been better if the other parties quickly realised and agreed to unfurl the flag. I bet the other parties did not bother about the importance of the event.

Sad to say party affliations take precedence over India as a nation.
The same occurring in many other forums/circles also.
Guess the citizens as youngsters are not taught --- like respect to flag/anthem/song ....... They dont seem to distinguish between the nation called India and parties abiding by Indian constitution!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2011 10:09

Sachin wrote:BTW, looks like MMS and co have come up with another trick. The CRPF would hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk, Sri Nagar .
Link from Facenfacts.com
Link from New Kerala

With this, perhaps the opponents of Yathra can claim, that the Yathra was not needed because;
1. The national flag was hoisted at the controversial place (Lal Chowk) and so there is nothing for the common man to be upset. Indian flag was raised at Indian territory.
2. CRPF is an Indian para military organisation, and so it can also be said that the flag was hoisted not begging or taking permission from any other group (be it terrorists, Pakis etc. etc.).

Sachin, If you read the details the CRPF is to raise the flag in the area, not on the clock tower, Ghanta Ghar, which is the real deal. This one is erstaz like the Nazis.

Goebbels would be proud of MMS double speak!!!!

Suggesto falci!

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Jan 2011 10:32

Wait wait so what do we have here, where was MMS and his gobmint when Arundahati and Geelani were to address a rally in Dilli and for whose cause and today they have suddenly grown b@ll$ to stop a train of BJP workers in the middle of the night and turn it back, must be chankian no ? Look at the kind of arguments being made here 'partisan', using 'nationalism' to instigate the public now is that a crime ?

I am all for criticism of such yatras and seemingly useless exercise but where were these voices when the same existing government (both in center and state) didn't do nothing to prevent today's JKLF & Hurriyat goons from forcing the KPs out ? I see some erudite posters here complaining about BJP making flag hoisting a partisan exercise, would they care to explain how ? Btw what do they make of 'unconstitutional' utterances of certain Mr. Integrity and that too on 15th August (for whom I cannot express my love properly, thanks to the Mods) when he claimed a certain section of India republic has the first right on India's resources ?

So when the informed junta doesn't see anything wrong with GOI's omissions which are far more grave in nature and in fact ascribe them to chankianism why so much bruhaha over Bharat Swabhiman Yatra ?

If someone here can show (under IPC) that hoisting a flag in lal chowk is illegal I would rest my case.

Btw on a side note how is that Binayak Sen is being tried for sedition while mofos like Geelani and Yasin Malik receive state's protection ?

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Jan 2011 10:34

It is sickening to see that BJP has de facto become the gate keeper of nationalism mainly due to the failings of non BJP parties

I think you are mistaking the wood for the trees. The BJP's faux nationalism is as real as Pamela Anderson's true bust size in this issue. What the BJP is the gate keeper is of shrillness and it is only a mental illusion if you confuse the shrillness and make believe with the real deal.

No. The BJP are playing divisive partisan politics here and are in cahoots with the Gilani faction in terms of exploiting the tears in the fabric from this wedge issue.

If they were playing a true "national" agenda, they would have dropped the shrillness and worked with the Govt (both the J&K and center on this).

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 10:36

vina wrote: No. The BJP are playing divisive partisan politics here and are in cahoots with the Gilani faction in terms of exploiting the tears in the fabric from this wedge issue.

Man, you are talented! Pure bliss!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jan 2011 10:36

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 10:38

vina wrote:
If they were playing a true "national" agenda, they would have dropped the shrillness and worked with the Govt (both the J&K and center on this).

Vina; dont lie please, it does not behoove you to put dynasty over nation.

BJP did offer, the "issue" is only because Mannu and OA refuse to work with BJP.

Let me ask you why is the "onus" of working together only on BJP when the dynasty and its chamcha's show no such interest remotely?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 10:39

abhishek_sharma wrote:
vina wrote: No. The BJP are playing divisive partisan politics here and are in cahoots with the Gilani faction in terms of exploiting the tears in the fabric from this wedge issue.

Man, you are talented! Pure bliss!

Now you know which constituency Doggy raja with his "Joos and RSS killed Karkare" and "26/11 was a Mossad op" is addressing.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 24 Jan 2011 10:46

Vina,

Anyone can have party loyalty that is secondary with respect to being as an Indian. they can have differing views
BUT there are certain non negotiable items irrespective of party affliations for which all Indians should be united. If any party goes out of this line it has to be condemned. This requires certain principles and pride in being an Indian.

Sad to say party affliations take precedence over India as a nation.
The same occurring in many other forums/circles also.
Guess the citizens as youngsters are not taught --- like respect to flag/anthem/song ....... They dont seem to distinguish between the nation called India and parties abiding by Indian constitution!!

please go thru these posts . please keep your partisan approach aside and think as a Indian.
Judge for yourself who is playing politics over Indian nationalism and flag. shame on those people.
I repeat this which is quoted often--
the eyes do not see what the mind does not want to know.

Vina we all want contrarian views. We want differing opinions but not rantings. we learn from each other by our views. we correct them as we interact with each other based on our experiences.
Mind works better when it is open.

Again it is your ranting on a political party and not thinking as an Indian.
Please as an Indian do you want to unfurl the national flag where it was taken over by separatists under our very land irrespective of political party.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 10:46

Sanku wrote: Now you know which constituency Doggy raja with his "Joos and RSS killed Karkare" and "26/11 was a Mossad op" is addressing.

Yeah. And given the discussion here, he should be successful.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 10:55

There is an article in Dainik Hindustan in which the author (Managing Editor of IBN-7) writes that BJP is doing this because they hate Muslims.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jan 2011 10:58

The BJP, as an opposition party, is under no obligation to make life easier for the government. And political parties the world over indulge in the politics only of the utterly cynical type, so no "BJP specific" quibble there.

The problem is with the definition of the "bottomline", as so many people keep saying...If BJP really wanted to settle a "bottomline", it would insist on passing (yet another) resolution in Parliament, a la 1994..this time clearly articulate that ANY change in the executive status (not just constitutional) of J&K's relationship with India would require PArliamenary approval...Not that its required, most things eligible for "status change" anyway require constiutional amendments - but it would make the point...

I find some parallels of this attempted yatra with the so-called second intifada in Palestine...It was widely attributed to the visit of Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa mosque compound...By all available accounts, the Palestinians were anyway planning an outbreak, but this visit, couched in shrill rhetoric provided the perfect excuse and oxygen of wide global media publicity...In reality, Ariel Sharon didnt actusally go inside the Al Aqsa mosque, and visited the place during normal tourist hours..But the damage was done - and the second intifada started to wide global sympathies...And that phase has since then not really stopped...Ariel Sharon too, was doing it precisely with the same motives, ie, arouse the emotions, and reaped rich electoral harvest out of it....So in this case, Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon both had the same objective and met them, even while seemingly locked in mortal opposition!

Now there are lots of contextual differences between Palestine and Kashmir, but some of the characteristics of the yatra are uncanniliy similar..The problem is, how much popular mobilisation can BJP do on this yatra...People thse days can get worked up over substantive issues - look at the reaction on the latest corruption cases...(Even the usually pusilanimous industrialist types had to release a public letter bemoaning drift!)...But for a yatra of this sort?

The record of any "yatra" post the original Rath yatra has been conspicuous by their absence of political dividend for the yatri!

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 24 Jan 2011 11:01

Geelani’s aide held in hawala case

Police has arrested Ghulam Mohammad Bhat, a close aide of hardline separatist leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, for his alleged involvement in a Hawala racket and also seized Rs 21 lakh from him.

Two others were also arrested. Senior superintendent of police (SSP) Srinagar, Ashiq Bukhari, said the racket was brining in money to Kashmir for subversive activities. However, Geelani strongly refuted the allegation.

In a statement, he said Bhat was the head of the legal cell of the Hurriyat Conference headed by him.

“He was arrested while he was buying some household items. Bhat was beaten and he got injured in police thrashing,” the hard line leader said and appealed the human rights groups to intervene.

SSP Srinagar said a joint team of Srinagar police and special cell of Delhi police arrested Bhat and two others Farooq Ahmad Dagga and Ghulam Jeelani Leelu from Srinagar.

“A car and hawala money amounting to Rs 21lakh were recovered from their possession. Earlier, Delhi Police sleuths had sought the help of Srinagar Police in this connection. The trio had been booked in a case FIR No.4 of 2011 under section 120-B, of India Penal Code and section 17 of Unlawful activities Prevention act, of Police station Special Cell-New Delhi,” he said.

Bukhari added that Bhat was earlier arrested by police in Udhampur in 2008 and Rs 55 lakh were recovered from him, which were concealed in a gas cylinder.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Jan 2011 11:39

somnath:

What f%^&ing "global" symptahy do Palestinains get? Isarel shoots them point blank like hunters chase and gun down wild animals, and US & its western lackeys stand by and watch with inflinching support to Israel. Even a rotten dog bone that Israel throws at Palestinians is considered a great concession in the west.

Sorry no parallel between Palestine and Kashmir. US openly supports the seperatist scum bags in the valley despite being the anti-thesis of secularism and democracy. US openly supports TSP, knowing fully well that but for TSP's irredentist attitude, terror, and blackmail, India is doing everything it can to appease the separatist dogs and their leaders in the valley. Yet, US shows little sympathy for India's position on Kashmir despite India's stand being based on pristine principles of secularism and democracy.

Today, nationalists, led by BJP believe and with good reason that MMS is on a road to sell out of Kashmir through joint love making couched in some diplomatic mumbo jumbo and in a sufficiently slow time scale that can bypass parliament resoltions and hoodwink a naive, apathetic, gullibe public consumed with their day to day survival challenges. And in this diabolical sell out, MMS has the entire DDM on his side.

Thats what BJP wants to expose and bring out in the open. There needs to be a national awakening on why Kashmir is important to India, and what India's bottom line ought to be despite whatever MMS and his masters in Washington, London, and his pals in Rawilpindi say about "India cannot reach its destiny without TSP".

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 24 Jan 2011 11:44

Why Kashmiri`s feel alieanated from India? Siddharth varadarajan.
1.Throughout the summer of their most recent discontent, when a hundred young men and women lost their lives in police firing, leaders from the ruling and opposition parties acted as if nothing untoward had happened. Six months earlier, the mere threat of violence in Hyderabad led the Union Home Minister to declare the government had agreed to the formation of a separate state for Telangana. In Rajasthan, the blockade of national highways by agitating Gujjars produced an instant offer of dialogue and negotiation. But in Kashmir, the corpses kept piling up while the government, the Opposition (with some honourable exceptions) and civil society in the rest of India reacted with the kind of detachment reserved for death and destruction in faraway lands like Darfur and Iraq.
2.The fact that the public mood in the valley began to soften slightly only after an all-party delegation visited Srinagar and condoled with some of the victims' families underlined something quite unpleasant about ourselves. That the indifference of mainland India to the suffering of the ordinary Kashmiri is as much a factor in the alienation of the State as the politics of separatism and the violence of extremist groups operating with the tacit and sometimes overt backing of the Pakistani military.
3.In the Machchil fake encounter case, the same general declares that his soldiers — who are accused of kidnapping and killing three young Kashmiri men — can never get justice in Kashmir, as if the State is not a part of India. He even criticized the judiciary as anti Indian? Which a man holding that post is not supposed to.
4.The Government of India rightly protested when Beijing began treating Kashmir-born or Kashmir-domiciled Indians differently from the rest while issuing visas for travel to China. But the same government does not mind treating Kashmiri Indians differently when it comes to issuing passports for them to travel.
5.But the BJP's proposed flaghoisting is not just an exercise in naivette or cynicism. It is the product of a mindset that considers Kashmir to be terra nullius, an empty landscape to be coveted and possessed rather than a land with a people and soul who acceded to India in 1947 on the basis of a covenant which must be respected in full measure and who have as much right to a life with dignity as those elsewhere in the country do.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 24 Jan 2011 11:49

menon s wrote:Why Kashmiri`s feel alieanated from India? Siddharth varadarajan.
...
5.But the BJP's proposed flaghoisting is not just an exercise in naivette or cynicism. It is the product of a mindset that considers Kashmir to be terra nullius, an empty landscape to be coveted and possessed rather than a land with a people and soul who acceded to India in 1947 on the basis of a covenant which must be respected in full measure and who have as much right to a life with dignity as those elsewhere in the country do.

But when non muslim kashmiris and other indians will get the right to a life with dignity in Kashmir as those kashmiri muslims expect?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Jan 2011 11:50

Lets leave BJP, INC, party, politics.

I couldn't understand the stand of OA & his administration. What's wrong in hositing flag in Lal Chowk. Why he is creating a big drama around this. Ok lets say BJP is playing politics. If BJP is playing politics to hoist the flag why not he do counter politics by hoisting flag by his own administration? Instead of deploying CRPF and JKPF to stop the BJP people from enter the state why not use the same CRPF and JKPF to raise the flag and beat the BJP in its own game?

What is the reasoning of OA for not hoisting the flag?

It is not only Lal chowk but other places like sopore too where the Indian flag was not hoisted last year. Doubts over the credibility of OA is never abating.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 24 Jan 2011 11:51

Folks who are saying that BJP is in bed with Gilani/Hurriyat and nation is "yawning" at BJP needs to watch this video from a 400% secular, pro-INC channel (who subverted cash-for-votes sting and saved UPA-I).

For people's reaction watch from 1:50 onwards:
http://ibnlive.in.com//videos/141314/pe ... issue.html

Uncleji, auntyji (seems to be angry at Paki flag hoisting), yuppie junta (except for one girl) seems to be with BJP on this issue and hence in bed with Gilani !!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jan 2011 11:54

CRAMS,

There is no parallel between Kashmir and Palestine - I said that before.But just as Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat seemed to have similar objectives on Sharon's "yatra" to the Temple Mount, the Ekta Yatra too seem to be serving the interests of both the BJP and Hurriyat/Hizb/Lashkar!

CRamS wrote:Today, nationalists, led by BJP believe and with good reason that MMS is on a road to sell out of Kashmir through joint love making couched in some diplomatic mumbo jumbo and in a sufficiently slow time scale that can bypass parliament resoltions and hoodwink a naive, apathetic, gullibe public consumed with their day to day survival challenges.

I havent seen a SINGLE concrete step - mind you a single administrative or constittuional action - from the present govt that past govts, NDA, UF et al have not tried...And tell me, honestly, how can the constitutional status of J&K be changed by a "slow burning diplomatic" move?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 Jan 2011 11:56

Most surprising part in this discussion is that many people (Indian nationalists apparently) are afraid of unfurling Tiranga in their own country. Only because they are afraid of muslim backlash. Am I reading this correctly ?

What'll be their reaction if somebody tries to raise the flag in a muslim majority area, for example in Kerala, Hyderabad, Assam raise objection ?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 24 Jan 2011 11:56

menon s wrote:Siddharth varadarajan.
a land with a people and soul who acceded to India in 1947 on the basis of a covenant

An over-dramatic and patently false statement. The Instrument of Accession in all cases was signed by the rulers of princely states, in this case Maharaja Hari Singh. The special status was bestowed on J&k thanks to that *&%# Nehru and his installation of Sheikh Abdullah as dictator of the state without the due electoral process.

The "soul" of the land has long ago been crushed by the Islamists.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Jan 2011 11:59

somnath wrote: I havent seen a SINGLE concrete step - mind you a single administrative or constittuional action - from the present govt that past govts, NDA, UF et al have not tried...And tell me, honestly, how can the constitutional status of J&K be changed by a "slow burning diplomatic" move?

I knew you would come back with this. What is all this joint-love making deal with Mush? Why all the appeasement of the separatists scum? Suzzana and Geelani puking their bile right under MMS's nose is not provacative? What about all this talk of going back to pre-1953 status. There is something cooking behind the scenes, and hence the need of the hour to expose him. Thats the BJP strategy. Note MMS's insistence that they do not hoist the flag at Lal Chowk? Why? Whats the symbolism? Whats he afraid of?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 12:04

Sab apne apne asli rang dikha raahen hain; bahut bhaut badhiya.

People are showing their true colors, very very good.

If the American Citizen SV was not known well enough on BRF already---

American Citizen wrote: In Rajasthan, the blockade of national highways by agitating Gujjars produced an instant offer of dialogue and negotiation.

A peaceful protest, with no violent activity, and no stone throwing at police can be compared to blood thirsty mobs?

However when Gurjar's did act violently in 2008 IA was called in and 37 people were killed.

Lie 1 nailed.

2.The fact that the public mood in the valley began to soften slightly only after an all-party delegation visited Srinagar and condoled with some of the victims' families underlined something quite unpleasant about ourselves.

The agitations ALWAYS wane in winters, the stone throwers are too lazy to move in snow. Lie 2 nailed.

3.In the Machchil fake encounter case, the same general declares that his soldiers — who are accused of kidnapping and killing three young Kashmiri men — can never get justice in Kashmir, as if the State is not a part of India. He even criticized the judiciary as anti Indian? Which a man holding that post is not supposed to.

The same is said by Dynasty stooges about Gujarat, which is not even disturbed. Should Gujurat also turn anti-Indian?

Lie 3 nailed.

4.The Government of India rightly protested when Beijing began treating Kashmir-born or Kashmir-domiciled Indians differently from the rest while issuing visas for travel to China. But the same government does not mind treating Kashmiri Indians differently when it comes to issuing passports for them to travel.

Huh, how? What sheer Gobeelian lie is this? All Indians have same passports.

Lie 4 nailed.

5.But the BJP's proposed flaghoisting is not just an exercise in naivette or cynicism. It is the product of a mindset that considers Kashmir to be terra nullius, an empty landscape to be coveted and possessed rather than a land with a people and soul who acceded to India in 1947 on the basis of a covenant which must be respected in full measure and who have as much right to a life with dignity as those elsewhere in the country do.

So if people willing acceded, which both all Indians and BJP believes in, what problem is flying the flag and carrying out mass rallies in support of India?

No problem right.

Lie 5 nailed.

SV is a bloody liar.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Jan 2011 12:08

nkumar wrote:
For people's reaction watch from 1:50 onwards:
http://ibnlive.in.com//videos/141314/pe ... issue.html

True. If one can say by this flag hoisting, BJP is playing politics, one can understand. But how that is divisive? Here BJP is not hoisting its own party flag or Paki flag, to call it as divisive. Actions of this Gov. is creating more doubts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2011 12:09

I can't understand why MMS cannot invite the BJP and oher Opposition parties and UPA partners to jointly hoist the natonal flag in Srinagar.Honour will be done to the flag,the nation and all political parties too.The over-reaction to the BJP's flag issue,and his shocking (don't rock the boat) statements accompanying it, is making the PM look like a man who is "ashamed" of raising the flag in Kashmir.Is he that scared of seditious Kashmiris leave alone their Paki ISI masters?

If he is scared of carrying ou his responsibiliy as PM or ashamed of raising the national flag,then it amounts to dereliction of duty-the same as in the case of all the gargantuan scams,in not bringing the guilty to justice but sheilding them instead,and must resign forthwith

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 24 Jan 2011 12:24

Philip wrote:I can't understand why MMS cannot invite the BJP and oher Opposition parties and UPA partners to jointly hoist the natonal flag in Srinagar.Honour will be done to the flag,the nation and all political parties too.The over-reaction to the BJP's flag issue,and his shocking (don't rock the boat) statements accompanying it, is making the PM look like a man who is "ashamed" of raising the flag in Kashmir.Is he that scared of seditious Kashmiris leave alone their Paki ISI masters?

If he is scared of carrying ou his responsibiliy as PM or ashamed of raising the national flag,then it amounts to dereliction of duty-the same as in the case of all the gargantuan scams,in not bringing the guilty to justice but sheilding them instead,and must resign forthwith

Excellent point. Hopefully MMS still has some guts in him in the remaining hours to seize on this possibility and make amends.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 24 Jan 2011 12:30

somnath wrote:I havent seen a SINGLE concrete step - mind you a single administrative or constittuional action - from the present govt that past govts, NDA, UF et al have not tried...

If there was some Chenab plan in the works in NDA days, I would have hoped that INC raise a stink about it. At the least this says that INC and other opposition parties have not been very effective in the past. At worst it'd say they agree with the idea.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jan 2011 12:31

CRamS wrote:I knew you would come back with this. What is all this joint-love making deal with Mush? Why all the appeasement of the separatists scum? Suzzana and Geelani puking their bile right under MMS's nose is not provacative? What about all this talk of going back to pre-1953 status. There is something cooking behind the scenes, and hence the need of the hour to expose him.

Randomly, I can think of the following "key statements" around Kashmir over the years:

1. PVNR's "sky is the limit" offer of autonomy in 1992 while announcing elections..This was the first official signal for pre-1953 status..
2. Deve Gowda's "Kashmir problem will be resolved in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiris" - suspicioulsy close to the US-EU formulation?
3. ABV's "insaaniyat ke dayre mein" statement when asked whether talks with militants would be held within the ambit of the Indian constitution..Shorn of the poetic sophistry, what did it mean?
4. ABV govt's initiative, first and only, to talk to the Hizb....

Coming to UPA and MMS, what is precisely the "love making deal" with Mush? Where are the adminsttrative and legal steps to revert to pre-1953 status?

Airavat wrote:The Instrument of Accession in all cases was signed by the rulers of princely states, in this case Maharaja Hari Singh. The special status was bestowed on J&k thanks to that *&%# Nehru and his installation of Sheikh Abdullah as dictator of the state without the due electoral process.

That is not quite correct. There was no one single template of the Isntrument of Accession..Every princely state signed (a slightly different) variant..The one signed by Hari Singh "agreed to accede to the Dominion of India on condition that the state retain its own constitution and autonomy in all matters except defense, currency and foreign affairs". Article 370 was promulgated in order to reflect the specific Instrument of Accession signed by Hari Singh...

Over the years, the only movement on Art 370 has been towards dilution of its provisions..As of now, barring the issue of owning property by "outsiders", dont see any other major "difference" between the constittuional provisions governing Kashmir to the rest of India..BTW, the covenant on property is presetn in a number of other states as well AFAIK..

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jan 2011 12:35

vera_k wrote:If there was some Chenab plan in the works in NDA days, I would have hoped that INC raise a stink about it. At the least this says that INC and other opposition parties have not been very effective in the past. At worst it'd say they agree with the idea.

the Chenab plan existed since the '60s...First artiulated by Zulfi Bhutto and rejected by Swaran singh(a congressman foreign minister

)..It was dusted out last during ABV's time, in the Mishra-Naik talks...Nothing came of it..These are diplomatic talking points - finally the issue is of real estate, and real estate in a country like India can only be settled through Parliamentary mandates..

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Jan 2011 12:38

For those of us who have actually talked to Kashmiri muslims the islamist elements are NOT dominant in Kashmir. They are the loud squeaky wheel and have street power. Remember that the population of the valley is just a Million. Even a couple of thousand islamists can intimidate the population really well. Similar groupings around the world have been just as successful.

The Kashmiri's have a vision of the India they acceded to. Rightly or Wrongly they feel we have not lived up to that ideal either.

The only people who have a true right to raise the Indian flag in Kashmir are Kashmiri's themselves. Sure you can march in there and do it, but it does not speak well of us, the other states. Anyone doing so uninvited is violating someones home. This is the meaning of the Indian Federation. We are not an Empire or the Domain of a God King.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 12:42

Theo_Fidel wrote:The only people who have a true right to raise the Indian flag in Kashmir are Kashmiri's themselves. Sure you can march in there and do it, but it does not speak well of us, the other states. Anyone doing so uninvited is violating someones home. This is the meaning of the Indian Federation. We are not an Empire or the Domain of a God King.

What is this "true right"? Who gave them this right?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 12:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:The only people who have a true right to raise the Indian flag in Kashmir are Kashmiri's themselves. Sure you can march in there and do it, but it does not speak well of us, the other states. Anyone doing so uninvited is violating someones home. This is the meaning of the Indian Federation. We are not an Empire or the Domain of a God King.

I am clearly very ignorant. Can you please cite some documents which explain this "meaning of Indian federation"?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jan 2011 12:47

Kashmiri Muslims are not the issue, IMO...If a few lac KMs dont like India, or are ambivalent to it, tough luck...13 crores of their brethren have to live and prosper in India..And 85 crore more non-muslims as well..

the issue is whether we are being smart enough, as a nation to realise what is in our best interests and what isnt..The essential question is whether a yatra to Lal Chowk is the most pressing national security concern we have? Shouldnt we be thinking about our real "area of influence" - stretching from the straits of malacca to the hormuz? How does a yatra of this sort, which only brings back the India-Pak Kashmir rivalry hiphenations, go with our grand strategy?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jan 2011 12:53

Marten wrote:Somnath, doesn't the Instrument of Accession also allow for the President to change the terms at any given point? iirc, if required, the Council of Ministers may be asked to vote. Not sure though about all the clauses etc.

The Instrument of Accession is only the "transaction, if you will, of transferrign power from the princely ruler to the Republic of India..Once that is done, the territory becomes part of India, any change in its status require constitutional amendment..For Kashmir, Art 370 was required because of the conditional nature of the accession....It has also been amended many times - for example, when the powers of the Supreme court and Election Commission were extended to J&K..

Anyhow, any change in Art 370 will require to be done out of a Constitutional amendment, 2/3rd majority IMO...

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Jan 2011 12:58

I am clearly very ignorant. Can you please cite some documents which explain this "meaning of Indian federation"?

Listen,there is a lot of wisdom in what Theo says. The people to raise the flag are the Kashmiris themselves. If you take a million men and march from BJP ruled states , or if you make the Army /CRPF etc hoist the flag in Lal Chowk, sure you can do it (such a flag wont stay there for long without a platoon to guard it if done in such a way). But that is sure to rankle (it will be seen and feel as an invading force , doing things against the will of the Kashmiri people) and it is counter productive and you push the average Kashmiri right into the arms of Gilani . That is exactly what I said earlier.

Let us face it. There is an issue on the ground in Kashmir. These are best addressed by open dialogue and long term negotiations and not coercion and the gun. We do need to talk to the Kashmiri separatists who are willing to talk.

Yes, there is no alternative to coercion and the gun when there is violence, especially if there are terrorist agendas fanned from across the border. But now that has largely abated, you really NEED to absolutely open hearts and minds to the Kashmiris who are opposed and talk ceaselessly with open mind and in good faith and do the maximum you can. That might and will not satisfy the maximum agenda of anyone, but we should still talk. And yes, normalcy doesn't mean lack of gunfire, but more normalcy in the larger sense.

Kashmir deserves a chance at peace, which probably 2 generations there haven't seen. The Indian govt should do it's part and do the best it can , along with the civil society groups in India.

Yes, the BJP can absolutely be a part of the solution . But it seems hell bent on creating new problems and rekindling the fires that seem to be dying down, all for what, more electoral issues to sow and reap.Sorry. Shameful to say the least.

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jan 2011 12:59

Arjun wrote:
I can't understand why MMS cannot invite the BJP and oher Opposition parties and UPA partners to jointly hoist the natonal flag in Srinagar.Honour will be done to the flag,the nation and all political parties too.The over-reaction to the BJP's flag issue,and his shocking (don't rock the boat) statements accompanying it, is making the PM look like a man who is "ashamed" of raising the flag in Kashmir.Is he that scared of seditious Kashmiris leave alone their Paki ISI masters?

If he is scared of carrying ou his responsibiliy as PM or ashamed of raising the national flag,then it amounts to dereliction of duty-the same as in the case of all the gargantuan scams,in not bringing the guilty to justice but sheilding them instead,and must resign forthwith
Excellent point. Hopefully MMS still has some guts in him in the remaining hours to seize on this possibility and make amends.

The official flag hoisting ceremony is held at Bakshi Stadium which is about 100 meters away from Lal Chowk. Now if MMS did indeed invite BJP to come over for a flag hoisting ceremony in Srinagar then the BJP would have to either abandon plans to do the flag hoisting at Lal Chowk and go to Bakshi Stadium or decline the offer to participate in the official flag hoisting ceremony in Srinagar. One should be careful about what one wishes for.

But I do note that folks here think it's perfectly acceptable for the Prime Minister of the nation to be absent when the official flag hoisting is done in New Delhi.

Incidentally the last time the BJP hoisted the flag in Lal Chowk was in 1992 by Murli Manohar Joshi. I wonder why the exercise was never repeated all these years, especially during the period NDA was in power - that would have sent a powerful message to the militants, Unkil and the faujis in Pakiland? But till last year the flag did get hoisted in Lal Chowk every year, as far as I can recall - by the BSF and/or CRPF.

It was only last year that this practice was abandoned. It could be due to a prelude to what CRS calls "love-making"? Who knows?

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Jan 2011 13:01

Marten wrote:Afaik, Kashmiri Pandits driven away from the valley are also unable to hoist the flag; much less go back to their own houses.

That was a different set of cirucmstances and in all the public discourse (even by separatists) in Kashmir, atleast the platitudes seem to be that they Pandits need to be back.

But how will that happen now and in future, unless there is genuine peace, unless, you want an Isreal like "settlement" solutions with high walls and barricades separating the Pandits from the general population ?

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jan 2011 13:05

^^^^

OH by the way the situation was so bad in 1992, that Murli Manohar Joshi had to be airlifted by the government to Srinagar in 1992 as the roads were in the hands of the militants. This time I think the BJP will probably be able to go by road to Srinagar, if the govt forces do not stop the yatra. The militants are unlikely to be able to intervene, again unlike 1992. I would have thought that says something.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Jan 2011 13:06

It was only last year that this practice was abandoned. It could be due to a prelude to what CRS calls "love-making"? Who knows?

That is the only reason i support this current yatra...

If the flag was anyways being hoisted, the yatra can be dismissed as a gimmick. Since it was suspiciously stopped from last year ( depsite being peaceful in start of last year compared to the early 90s), there needs to be a restart of this practice to dispel doubts of any mischief by the GoI ( ably aided by friendly Unkil)

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jan 2011 13:09

sum wrote:
It was only last year that this practice was abandoned. It could be due to a prelude to what CRS calls "love-making"? Who knows?

That is the only reason i support this current yatra...

If the flag was anyways being hoisted, the yatra can be dismissed as a gimmick. Since it was suspiciously stopped from last year ( depsite being peaceful in start of last year compared to the early 90s), there needs to be a restart of this practice to dispel doubts of any mischief by the GoI ( ably aided by friendly Unkil)

But news reports say that the CPRF will hoist the flag at Lal Chowk this year. Would you now dismiss the yatra as a gimmick? Or maybe the yatra has served its purpose?