Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2010

[abhishek_sharma]

ISI man who died in Delhi hospital shows up in municipal records

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ISI-m ... rds/725393

‘Spy’ held in Mumbai took orders from ISI officers at Delhi mission

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/spy-h ... on/725500/

[Pratyush]

abhishek_sharma,

I am unable to read the link due to diwar-e-aag. Could you please post the report it self.

JMT

[abhishek_sharma]

First link:

In further confirmation that an ISI agent, who was listed on the Pakistan Army website as having attained “martyrdom” in a “Suicide Attack”, died at a hospital in Delhi, records of the Municipal Corporation of Delhi (MCD) show that his death was registered with the civic body. The MCD, which registers all births and deaths at the Ganga Ram Hospital where the ISI operative passed away, has an entry recording the death of Zulfikar Ahmed on November 16, 2007. The entry at the Karol Bagh zone of the MCD, under which the hospital falls, shows that his death was registered under the number MCD-0207-002775413. While details were not immediately available, his father’s name is given as Gulam Nabi and the place of death is recorded as Ganga Ram Hospital. The MCD does not, however, have a record of whether or not his death certificate was obtained by the Pakistan High Commission as details of people asking for death certificates are not registered. The confirmation comes a day after sources at the Ganga Ram Hospital confirmed to The Indian Express that Naik Zulfiqar Ahmed of the HQ 30 Corps, was referred to the hospital by the Pakistan High Commission which also paid his medical bills. According to an entry put up on the Pakistan Army website’s Shuhada’s (Martyrs’) Corner, Ahmed, from Bhimber in PoK, died on November 16, 2007 at “Ganga Ram Hosp N/Delhi” while on operation “Suicide Attack”. The “Cause of Shahadat” was “Neptrrotic Syndrome/ARI”.

The contents of second link are posted in the intelligence thread.

[Raja Ram]

SSridhar and other gurulog,

I would go a step further. The artificial rentier entity in the garb of a nation, that is called Pakistan, is nothing but a Weapon of Mass Destruction (WMD). The most potent one at that.

The unique thing about this WMD is that it has a mind of its own and rents its destructive powers to three principal masters namely the US, Saudis and Chinese. The US in particular also allows some of its nobles such as the UK and Japan to use these. In fact up until the 1980s, the US thought it best to use this entity (WMD) through its principal noble and erstwhile ruler, the UK to a large extent. Sort of outsourced the management and upkeep of the WMD to them. With sporadic direct usage. Japan was the financer for this entity as part of its tribute to the common master the US.

The WMD, as I said, has a mind of its own. It was forged based on a religious identity and wanted to ensure a continued role and may be one day leadership of the Ummah. It therefore rented itself out to an Islamic benefactor in the Saudis. This WMD is also conscious that its survival is not based on intrinisic merit, and will likely disintegrate into small pieces. It therefore allowed itself to be rented by the Chinese. The biggest existential threat to this entity is and will always be a united democratic India. The same is the biggest rival to the third master.

So having ensured that it has three principals to provide services, it also sold the merit of being a joint project to all three masters. The 3 masters of this entity have their own power dynamices but in three circual venn diagram, the intersection point is this artificial entity and WMD called pakistan.

Over a period of time, this WMD is losing its relevance and usefulness to one or the other, but will always be relevant to one or the other. This is being seen as a slow and creeping way to build for itself a role and power that will one day help it to grow so big, that at least one of the masters is toppled and the WMD entity and those who control it become a power centre and master themselves.

What is happening is for the first time that its relevance is low to two of the three masters at the same time viz. the US and Saudi. It has assumed greater relevance and usefulness to China.

Now, whatever be the situation, the extermination and removal of this WMD should be a prime objective of any GOI for it to pursue its national objectives. Therefore it cannot be a mute spectator at all times. It has its own power equations with all the three and half masters of Pakistan. These equations have been changing dramatically in the recent years. It provides the GOI to do something to ensure that this WMD is removed as this is a major impediment to our national interests.

In the ebb and flow of power, there comes a time, rarely in history, when a nation long supressed, finds its voice, soul, opportunity and the power to sieze the initiative. It is, but a brief window, in the passage of time. We must catch the tide at its crest and ride it, should redeem for ourselves the tryst that we made long years ago with destiny on that mid August midnight.

The most important step towards that is to rid this world of this aberration of a WMD called Pakistan. A greater service to humanity, cannot be there, then the dissolution of this aberration. Let it happen in our life time!

Just another ramble, gentle readers, just another ramble!

[Gus]

How would you define "responsible nation-state" in the context of Pakistan?

a responsible Pakistan, in the eyes of the west/US, would be one that directs its malevolence towards India and India alone.

[SSridhar]

Now, whatever be the situation, the extermination and removal of this WMD should be a prime objective of any GOI for it to pursue its national objectives. Therefore it cannot be a mute spectator at all times. It has its own power equations with all the three and half masters of Pakistan. These equations have been changing dramatically in the recent years. It provides the GOI to do something to ensure that this WMD is removed as this is a major impediment to our national interests.

In the ebb and flow of power, there comes a time, rarely in history, when a nation long supressed, finds its voice, soul, opportunity and the power to sieze the initiative. It is, but a brief window, in the passage of time. We must catch the tide at its crest and ride it, should redeem for ourselves the tryst that we made long years ago with destiny on that mid August midnight.

The most important step towards that is to rid this world of this aberration of a WMD called Pakistan. A greater service to humanity, cannot be there, then the dissolution of this aberration. Let it happen in our life time!

Raja Ram, as usual an excellent post. I completely agree with you, especially the above quoted portion. The bolded portions need to be dinned into ears of those who either refuse to see reality or who are naive. GoI cannot remain mute. In fact, the prime responsibility for the removal of this vermin rests with us. Others, like the US if at all, may provide only peripheral help and that too with great reluctance.

[Pranav]

Now, whatever be the situation, the extermination and removal of this WMD should be a prime objective of any GOI for it to pursue its national objectives. Therefore it cannot be a mute spectator at all times. It has its own power equations with all the three and half masters of Pakistan. These equations have been changing dramatically in the recent years. It provides the GOI to do something to ensure that this WMD is removed as this is a major impediment to our national interests.

Also need to have power equations to players within the entity.

Another point, while the entity is going down, its managers need to be kept well-fed (albeit demoralized) so that at least personally they have something to lose.

Need to find a Yeltsin.

[merlin]

Now, whatever be the situation, the extermination and removal of this WMD should be a prime objective of any GOI for it to pursue its national objectives. Therefore it cannot be a mute spectator at all times. It has its own power equations with all the three and half masters of Pakistan. These equations have been changing dramatically in the recent years. It provides the GOI to do something to ensure that this WMD is removed as this is a major impediment to our national interests.

In the ebb and flow of power, there comes a time, rarely in history, when a nation long supressed, finds its voice, soul, opportunity and the power to sieze the initiative. It is, but a brief window, in the passage of time. We must catch the tide at its crest and ride it, should redeem for ourselves the tryst that we made long years ago with destiny on that mid August midnight.

The most important step towards that is to rid this world of this aberration of a WMD called Pakistan. A greater service to humanity, cannot be there, then the dissolution of this aberration. Let it happen in our life time!

Raja Ram, as usual an excellent post. I completely agree with you, especially the above quoted portion. The bolded portions need to be dinned into ears of those who either refuse to see reality or who are naive. GoI cannot remain mute. In fact, the prime responsibility for the removal of this vermin rests with us. Others, like the US if at all, may provide only peripheral help and that too with great reluctance.

As they say, you can't wake someone up who's pretending to be asleep.

[Lalmohan]

i think you guys continue to assume UK to be much more powerful than it actually is. 2.5 masters makes much more sense, or 2.75 if you will. whilst the UK has links now, it no longer has power and the extent of influence is declining rapidly (way way down from the 70's and 80's when the cold war dynamics were still being played out). their primary interest now is to manage the terror threat from pakistan to the UK and indulge in some nostalgia of days gone by. if anywhere the UK has a facilitators influence is at the higher echelons of the RAPE. the army has long ago transformed from 'sandhurst' to 'westpoint' - in a the loose sense of those words.

[chandrabhan]

The reason why the Pakistani army and government cannot fight the Taliban is not India. It is Islam.

The US, and US diplomats are either very secular minded, or they are too dumb.........

They are not that smart. If you put Taliban in suits you get Pakistani army and establishment. This is a national level of stupidity that exists in America and even in France for that matter. Appearances matter more than invisible biases that Islam encourages. People protest against turbans and saris but cheerfully embrace suited booted Taliban.

Islam is the problem. The US won't admit it. The US system does not allow that because fundamentalist Christianity will rear its head if it does that. The rise of fundamentalist Christianity will be essential before Pakistan's game is shown up.

Shiv Garu,
As a Kid I read a book called, 'The little prince'. The book had a small story of a Turkish astronomer finding a new star but none of the Europeans paid any credence because he was dressed in a turkish dress with the Red cap. Next year , the same astronomer turned up in European suit and everyone believed him. Appearances are not deceptive, Our minds are. We see familiarity of dress, language, Customs and Culture as a sign of genuineness.

Americans or the Gauls will not accept it because they see everything through the prism of hyper secularism. However, times are changing, thankfully. Pakistan's goose is cooked. I was at a bar with a Texan Redneck in Ukstan recently, He had only choicest of adjectives for Ombaba and it was a delight to hear him decipher the problem with Islam precisely. I just wanted to ask him if he was reading BRF.

The reborn Christian followers and increasing with some Indic influences i.e. Cremation, Rebirth and karma (he used the word repeatedly). As per him Islam will die a 'noo-clear' death if this hoi polloi continues and rightly attributed the problem to the visions of 'Arab empire' by Salafis. I too am of the belief that GW Bush was not a fool. Targeting Iraq was a right move for one thing atleast, getting out of the clutches of Sauds and their wahabi $$$ onslaught. Sauds must be undermined along with other tin pot dictators. Iraq could have been at the forefront.

Coming back to Topic, TSP is on it's last legs in it's current form. They are hitting sixers after sixers towards their self destruction. in 5 years the gap between India and pakis will be too huge for anyone to prick. This equal-equal theory is dieing out naturally. However, We must be wary of these Rape types to sneak into India. Already quiet a few want to make a home here - Adnan Sami, Shoib Malik, Shoib Akhtar and the grand Daddy - Wasim Akram to name a few. These pigs should be made to stew in their own stew in La-whore.

[Satya_anveshi]

With all due respect Raja Ram ji (I absolutely relish your posts and your India centrism) but have to say that the notion of a weapon with a mind is a little untenable. The issues with this notion are multifold:
- that this is a rentier nation is undisputable and hence has to satisfy the renters at all times
- that its standalone capabilities in any sphere barring its willingness to serve renters are non-existing
- Most simplest of the administrative practice has failed in a spectacular way in pukistan
- Complete lack of capabilities to even maintain current security and other infrastructure
- the less said the better about internal disunity and periodic assassination of leaders is testament to this fact

From our strategy/policy formulation perspective:
- notion of Pukeland having a brain/mind will complicate our strategy formulation
- obsolve renter's responsibility to keep the renting premises in check
- even if we assume such a notion is true in reality, we still would like to breakdown the problem in to manageable sets and focus on taking the support off to ensure its nakedness is displayed in full glory; after that it will be a case of ek aur dhakka maro.

[SSridhar]

How would you define "responsible nation-state" in the context of Pakistan? What would it do it differently than it does now? (this may sound rhetorical but trust me that is not my intention)

Satya_anveshi, thanks.

The definition of Pakistan as a 'responsible-state' differs from US to China to India and others in between. After all, every nation tries to maximize benefits for itself at minimum risk and exposure - classic von Clausewetzian theory. What is 'maximum benefit' and what is 'least risky' would obviously differ from state to state and are parameters difficult to define and articulate. However, on both counts of 'maximum benefits' and 'least risk', Pakistan as a nation-state has defaulted big time.

IMO, Pakistan's case can be looked at from the angle of how an aspiring nation trying to become a nation-state should not behave. Pakistan defines itself as 'the mirror image of India' and hence it behaviour has also been similar. While India has been scrupulous, aware of its responsibility to nation building and achieving its rightful place among the comity of nations, Pakistan has just been the opposite: the rogue- nation that is variously described as 'international migraine' or 'Walmart of nuclear proliferation', 'breeding ground for extremism', 'single greatest challenge', 'epicentre of terrorism', 'a mortal threat to the security & safety of the USA','biggest source of instability' etc. Epithets that are never used to describe 'responsible nation-states'. Not even Somalia, Sudan and other sub-Saharan failed African nations have been described thus. To cap it all, Pakistan is a nuclear weapon state.

Forget about its inability to produce a satisfactory Constitution after repeated attempts, about its military coups for over half its existence, its loss of over half of the country within twenty-five years of independence, its other acts of omissions and commissions. What was the single most important strategic task facing both India and Pakistan on Aug 14/15, 1947 as they gained Independence ? Of course, there was a bloodbath, there were issues that remained to be sorted out by the division of the indivisible and the hurried exit of the British etc. But, the undeclared war for both India and Pakistan, at the start of their independent existence in August 1947, was to build their respective nation-state from the rubble of slavery and to better the quality of lives of their peoples. Various social and economic indicators in both countries cried for urgent attention. They both started with similar economic status, if not slightly better in the case of Pakistan. But, the political, economic and social costs of Pakistan’s overt and covert wars with India have damaged her irreparably. Pakistan has not only lost the race with India, which was not surprising and which should not have been attempted anyway in the first place, but also with other Islamic countries which were more or less at the same stage of development at the time of its independence, like Egypt or Malaysia. And this in spite of extreme generosity for fifty years now from its 3½ friends. Would any 'responsible nation-state' drive the country to such depths of despair excluding everything else for the singular unattainable ambition of destroying another nation ten times superior ? Pakistan has been unable to define its national objectives as modern nation-states understand them to be, not some medieval, obscurantist theocratic states.

Thus, it failed to derive 'maximum benefits' from its rich friends who showered it with all it wanted. It has also failed to secure itself against its own people, forget about any external enemy. Today, Pakistan's President has stated categorically that Pakistan's enemy is from within, an assessment echoed by other world powers including its 3½ Friends. So, on the Clausewetzian model of a nation-state, Pakistan has simply failed miserably as a 'responsible nation-state'.

[chandrabhan]

Sometimes I wonder why do we give so much of importance to Pakistanis and their problems in Life. With so many things to worry about in our lives i.e. restoration of village pond, Buying up a house, getting a few Check dams up and running before monsoons and off course I do think of these Poakroaches now since IPL auction is coming up. We are not going to buy any, that I have circulated internally.

I was approached by a Pakistani band to play during IPL for launch of new album, I simply stared cold at them. They left my table at the restaurant with their India - Paki Bhai Bhai bullcrap. They are going down the tube and we just need to ensure that they stay there and not run towards us. We should stop looking at Americans to do the job for us. Guru Gobind singhji said, "Koi kisi ko raaj na de hai, Jo mil hai nij Bal se mil hai". We must ensure a steady stream of mouthies, "Stable pakistan is in the world's interest" and continue to take care of the needs of our Pashtoon brothers (through AK47 supplied/paid for) against pakjabi terror.

Keep calm and devote ourselves to making money and uplifting the country, just ensuring that pakis have enough to play with each other. Nowdays whenever i get to meet any pakistani, I keep on smiling and sometimes laughing when they want to talk business and alliances. They get the message.

[Satya_anveshi]

Thanks SS ji for your wonderful post
Sometimes some honest questions/answers trigger some interesting thought process and for folks like me provide an interesting opportunity to learn.

Will post follow up later.

[Kamboja]

The pain therefore goes to the common folk, not the Type-1s and Type-2s. The common folk are already cannon fodder for the Type-1s & 2s. They either become foot soldiers of TTP (Type-1) or LeT (Type-2). Those who cannot become foot soldiers, for various reasons, contribute funds to JuD and pray fervently for the destruction of India. For them, the increasing pain only confirms the theories of Zaid Hamid, Hamid Gul, Aslam Beg, the mullahs et al that there is a deep conspiracy to annihilate the Islamic civilization and Pakistan is in the vanguard of protecting Islam.

The political parties, in order to survive, have to pander therefore to the increasing fundamentalism of the common folk, a la Z.A.Bhutto. So, the vicious cycle gets repeated. This is not going to be broken by merely making life more miserable for the common folk than what it already is.

SS-ji,

I don't disagree with the above, but do want to point out one thing. It seems to me that one of the principal pillars of the Paki national narrative has been that the establishment of Pakistan has ensured a safe environment for the South Asian Muslim population to thrive. 'Look at the poor, downtrodden Muslims in India, who are victims of the Brahmin-Bania complex - there, but for the grace of God, go I', etc. etc. was the refrain whenever Paki Muslims wanted to feel good about themselves.

In the 50s and 60s this narrative was easier for the common Abdul to swallow because Pakistan was indeed doing better on many per capita HDIs -- thanks in no small part to the largesse bestowed upon it by the US, but Pakis never seem to mention that part. Even now the 60s seem to be the 'Golden Age' for RAPEs and even average Abdul, I'd venture.

Anyway, my point is that the average Abdul in all his misery in Pakiland always had a safety valve in the midst of all the misery of his daily life -- he could always look East and console himself that 'at least I'm not in India being downtrodden'. In the past decade, however, this safety valve is slowly being eroded. Notwithstanding aberrations like Gujarat, Bombay, etc., Indian Muslims are part of the rising tide of general Indian economic wellbeing (even if they face problems similar to other backward communities). At the very least, they are not being slaughtered for being Shia or Ismaili or just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as their coreligionists in Pakistan are. At best, they are achieving world-beating economic, social, and political success -- a la Azim Premji, the many Khans of Bollywood, and our ex-President. This trend is only going to accelerate in future.

So after all these years I feel the Paki Abdul is beginning to scratch his head and wonder how come these Muslims in India are doing so well -- better, even, than himself? Suddenly he has nobody that he can feel superior to, and this can only lead to rage against those in power in Pakistan for allowing this to happen.

Therefore, IMHO making the life of the average Abdul more miserable is extremely damaging to the Paki national narrative and therefore Paki national cohesiveness, when combined with the fact of Indian (and Indian Muslim) economic success. This should be seized as leverage by GoI to hasten the demise of that entity.

[shiv]

Guys,

The growth of population is contingent upon continuty of a stable governemt. If the GoTSP becomes unstable then even the 3.5 will not be able to stabilise the situation. In that condition the collpse of what remains of the civic society will result in the a cap if not a reduction in the population by it self as the HDIs will begin to decline. So will agricultural producty.

A decline in HDI means that the number of wombs will be reduced. It will mean less children being born. Or those born not reaching maturity to start the cycle again.

All in all the numbers of TSP population may come down to 120 to 150 millions and soon. If they don't change their ways even without an external Indian intervention.

Think Ethiopia X 100.

JMT

Pratyush no. Nowhere in the world is this true (except under rare circumstances). And it won't work that way. Human populations in Pakistan will grow and are growing faster. It is easier to save lives than speed up deaths. Populations in the past were stable because of the number of deaths caused by Cholera, typhopid, malaria and childhood diarrheal diseases were matched by a high birth rate.

In most populations of the world the birth rate remains high while the death rate falls due to vaccination and easy remedies for disease which are available to the most screwed up populations - even Somalia. Pakistani birth rates are now the highest in Asia and unless a stable government can bring in family planning, they will remain high.

[shiv]

So after all these years I feel the Paki Abdul is beginning to scratch his head and wonder how come these Muslims in India are doing so well -- better, even, than himself? Suddenly he has nobody that he can feel superior to, and this can only lead to rage against those in power in Pakistan for allowing this to happen.

I get the impression that average Paki Abdul does not have access to such information by and large. Pakistan is an information controlled state and only a few elite realise what's actually going on in India.

[SSridhar]

Kamboja, you indeed have very valid points. There are two points you raised. One is the presumed better economic indicators on the whole for Pakistan vis-a-vis India. The other is the plight of Indian Muslims in a tyrannical Hindu-dominated society.

Not only in the 60s but even up until early 90s Pakistanis considered they were much better off than the Indians. Even some Indians thought so. About two decades back, I had a Hyderabad (Deccan) employee in my organization who always used to compare poor infrastructure in India with the far superior one in Pakistan, every time he came back from a trip to visit his sisters there. So, forget about Pakistanis claiming economic superiority over India. Now, what they conveniently forgot was that India was developing in breadth & depth all on its own, straining every muscle and trying to stand proud on its own legs unlike a profligate and reckless Pakistan living on borrowed time and borrowed money which it had no intention of returning anyway. Given its democratic structure, large size of the country, lack of generous friends with deep pockets, and pride, the progress was bound to be slow, painful and tortuous in India. All that is passe.

As for IMs, it is the common belief of the Pakistanis that such successes that you mentioned were few and far between and as a result of compromises that they have made in the process. The other presumption is that Muslims generally excel and it is but natural that some of them are allowed by the Hindu society/state to reap benefits from their labour. Remember Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's boast that he was the one to teach Indians how to sing ? And then, there was Musharraf who ridiculed ISRO enginners and Indian IT/ITES professionals ? This is denial of the reality. The events that have mass publicity in Pakistan are the rape/killing/looting of oppressed Kashmiri muslims, Babri Masjid demolition, the Gujarat carnage, conspiracy by Hindus to destroy Muslim civilization etc. The kind of videos in circulation in Pakistan, the analyses that are made in panel discussion in TVs are full of such bile-letting and spleen-venting. I think that there are still enough reasons for Pakistani Abduls to cling on to feel satisfied over their good fortune living in Pakistan compared to the awful kafiristan.

[Gagan]

But I suspect that the way IED mubaraks are going off in Pakistan, the comman pakistani is begining to realize that things in Pakistan are not rosy, and the future looks bleak.
There is no electricity most of the time, and to live in darkness with the risk of death hanging over everyone, must be depressing.
I don't have access to the vernacular press in Pakistan, but at least on the english pakistani print media and electronic media, news that India is doing very well economically is filtering through. The pakistani refrain that there are still desperately poor people around and no toilets etc is an H&D salvaging measure along the lines of "You may be rich but we are still better" etc.

But given the opportunity, more and more abduls there will make a beeline for kafir lands, be it the much hated 'dushman mulq' India

[Lalmohan]

hence the need for saas-bahu serials to saturate the air waves of pure land...

[JE Menon]

>>As a Kid I read a book called, 'The little prince'. The book had a small story of a Turkish astronomer finding a new star but none of the Europeans paid any credence because he was dressed in a turkish dress with the Red cap. Next year , the same astronomer turned up in European suit and everyone believed him.

The converse is also true, and this applies to Indians. You see, when an Indian political leader goes to the West and is dressed in a Turban, nehru jacket, or worse - mundu and veshti - and the (often SDRE appearing) gent spouts the most liberal and pluralistic of worldviews, it is very hard for the observing Western suited-booted types to internalise. There is a dissonance there between what they hear and what they see, and hence they tend to fall on the side of the visual rather than the aural. Whereas the Armani-shooted Pakiban go there and make the most outrageous claims and demands and that is considered more palatable. Simble onleee.

But there are ways to take advantage of this, and I believe we have to some degree. There is another added advantage. The Indian can simply switch to shoot and spout the same pluralistic worldview to bhoot (as is happening more and more these days). What's the Pakiban going to do? He can neither switch his worldview nor his shoot-bhoot!!!

[Pratyush]

Pratyush no. Nowhere in the world is this true (except under rare circumstances). And it won't work that way. Human populations in Pakistan will grow and are growing faster. It is easier to save lives than speed up deaths. Populations in the past were stable because of the number of deaths caused by Cholera, typhopid, malaria and childhood diarrheal diseases were matched by a high birth rate.

In most populations of the world the birth rate remains high while the death rate falls due to vaccination and easy remedies for disease which are available to the most screwed up populations - even Somalia. Pakistani birth rates are now the highest in Asia and unless a stable government can bring in family planning, they will remain high.

Shivji,

In the absence of stable civil society even the aid workers will be targeted by the warlords along with the flow of medical & food aid. As it is a way of excercing power and control. We have seen that in Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia to an extent in parts of post Communist and pre Taliban Afganistan.

This must have an effect of checking the growth if not reducing the population. If this won't do it then how it can be brought about. Without diliberately going in and killing them.

[A_Gupta]

Ha, the good Col Lang! As noted, he wrote about the proxy war in Afghanistan between India and Pakistan.

I asked:

What is the list of Indian actions that comprise the "proxy war"? e.g., does building of roads count?

Reply:

Arun
Roads? Sure, as well as many other things. you should be proud of the skill with which they are playing. pl

My question:

I should say - what activities is India performing in Afghanistan that leads to the death of Pakistani civilians or soldiers, or Pakistani proxies for that matter, to justify the statement of "proxy war"?

Arun
Ssurely you are not so primitive as to think that "wars" are always fought with guns. any more of this and i will ban you. pl

My reply (yet to go through moderation)

Dear Col. Lang,

Your blog, do as you please.

We know - from American sources - that the ISI had a hand in bombing the Indian Embassy in Kabul. So Pakistan IS waging a hot war against India in Afghanistan. My question which troubles you so much is about the other way - is it a covert "hot war" or is it a "cold war"?

[shiv]

But I suspect that the way IED mubaraks are going off in Pakistan, the comman pakistani is begining to realize that things in Pakistan are not rosy, and the future looks bleak.
There is no electricity most of the time, and to live in darkness with the risk of death hanging over everyone, must be depressing.
I don't have access to the vernacular press in Pakistan, but at least on the english pakistani print media and electronic media, news that India is doing very well economically is filtering through. The pakistani refrain that there are still desperately poor people around and no toilets etc is an H&D salvaging measure along the lines of "You may be rich but we are still better" etc.

But given the opportunity, more and more abduls there will make a beeline for kafir lands, be it the much hated 'dushman mulq' India

Gagan - I think that that mango Abdul is so badly screwed up that he has no time to think of what is happening in India.

For example the sort of people in the image below - they appear pretty much like rural folk in India.


What is happening in Pakistan is a lack of acknowledgement among wealthy Pakistanis of the number of poor and screwed up people they have. It requires a leap of faith to understand how many screwed up people exist in your own country. But since Paki leaders have gone about acting as if al iz wel Pakis are unable to admit to themselves that they have a problem. Those who hear anything, or are interested in India are told only about how bad India is. The rest are too screwed up to care. One of the problems that Pakistan faces with PoK is that PoK residents have figured out that India is better because it is just next door and there are "people to people" exchanges.

[shiv]

In the absence of stable civil society even the aid workers will be targeted by the warlords along with the flow of medical & food aid. As it is a way of excercing power and control. We have seen that in Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia to an extent in parts of post Communist and pre Taliban Afganistan.

This must have an effect of checking the growth if not reducing the population. If this won't do it then how it can be brought about. Without diliberately going in and killing them.

The population will not go down because there is a global phenomenon at work here. Some of the worst killer diseases have been eliminated (like smallpox). Other diseases, even when not eliminated have to come from somewhere. They are checked in every country and even in districts of Pakistan. So there is nowhere for them to spread in from. Finally - either humans know how to treat diarrhoea in children or they don't. It is a yes/no situation. 100 years ago it was mostly no. Now the knowledge that they can be treated by simply giving salt and sugar in water is so well known even in the remotest corners of the world that only odd isolated populations with no contact with modernity will suffer. Any child who is brought to any medical center anywhere in the world - even Pakistan automatically gets immunized. Pakistan is pretty civilized and public health awareness has been good and not opposed by Islam. And food supplies in Pakistan are not a problem - unlike Somalia. Family planning on the other hand is opposed So the population will only grow.

One of the biggest factors is lack of acknowledgment by the army and establishment that they have a population explosion problem and a self deluding belief that all is well in the nation of islam.

[Rangudu]

I would go a step further. The artificial rentier entity in the garb of a nation, that is called Pakistan, is nothing but a Weapon of Mass Destruction (WMD). The most potent one at that.

RR-ji,

I'd like to share an interesting note here. Sometime back, I had reached out to a reporter from a well known US media outlet regarding his wrong views on TSP. I said in my email that TSPA is a classic blackmailer and no ransom will change its behavior. I got no response.

Out of the blue, this Gentleman emailed me yesterday. He was in TSP for a while apparently and had a chance to interact with the usual TSPA/RAPE characters. He noted that his interactions caused him to find that he couldn't disagree with any of my points.

I thanked him and asked him what fundamental insight he gained from his trip to TSP. He said that he came away convinced that the TSP state is "something of a mirage" and a "bomb that keeps threatening to go off"

[JE Menon]

Excellent. This is how it works. Drop by drop... Great stuff Rman.

[shiv]

Shiv Garu,
As a Kid I read a book called, 'The little prince'. The book had a small story of a Turkish astronomer finding a new star but none of the Europeans paid any credence because he was dressed in a turkish dress with the Red cap. Next year , the same astronomer turned up in European suit and everyone believed him. Appearances are not deceptive, Our minds are. We see familiarity of dress, language, Customs and Culture as a sign of genuineness.

Yes I have the book and I have quoted that very passage on these forums before in the context of the way Chicoms changed from commie kimkoms to being sooted-booted while Indian spokespersons (before the NDA government set things straight) tended to be paan spitting yobs. The sooted-booted Islamist with an American accent is accepted as American and if he throws in words like freedom and democracy he has Americans by the balls. Secularism has its benefits but it is a disease that causes blindness to the taqiya performing Islamist who talks secularism when he wants F-16s.

[shravan]

Low intensity explosion in Peshawar procession

At least 16 people, including women and children were injured, when a grenade was hurled at a Muharram procession at at Yadgar Chowk in Peshawar, Thursday evening.

Express 24/7 correspondent Iftikhar Firdous reported that according to eye witness accounts, the grenade was thrown from inside one of the houses. However, the the area where the procession was passing through had been for the past week and only those authorised were able to enter the vicinity.

[shravan]

US missile kills up to seven in Khyber Agency

PESHAWAR: A US missile strike on Thursday killed up to seven militants in the tribal district of Khyber, in an apparent expansion of a covert drone campaign, Pakistani officials said.

[JE Menon]

Only? When are these guys going to dump a few daisies in the area????

[Lalmohan]

Only? When are these guys going to dump a few daisies in the area????

do you mean Daisy Dukes? (decode using rhyming slang)

[ramana]

I am thinking of moving the TSP failure related discussion to the other thread to preserve the ideas.

[anandsgh]

Do Pakis realizing something or just a hoax?
http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/16/in-depth ... istan.html

[CRamS]

I thanked him and asked him what fundamental insight he gained from his trip to TSP. He said that he came away convinced that the TSP state is "something of a mirage" and a "bomb that keeps threatening to go off"

Reminds me of that slime Ball Uneven's insight which I am paraphrasing. He said the only country that can make the TSP mirage a reality is India. By that what he meant was that the TSP RAPE are a resourceful. pro-western set of blokes who are paranoid, and even the paranoid have "enemies" meaning India. And of course, his usual pro-Paki drivel from that point on. Accoring to this TSP RAPE and US piskology, both India & TSP are a work in progress, and social engineering is needed to mold both of them to suit US interests. In others words, India give in to TSP RAPE so the mirage becomes a reality, and then all 3 India, TSP, and US live happily ever after.

[ramana]

Wasn't that the same logic that made UK give Czechslovakia to Nazi Germany in 1938? Appeasing a terrorist.

[CRamS]

Ha, the good Col Lang! As noted, he wrote about the proxy war in Afghanistan between India and Pakistan.

I asked:

What is the list of Indian actions that comprise the "proxy war"? e.g., does building of roads count?

Reply:

Arun
Roads? Sure, as well as many other things. you should be proud of the skill with which they are playing. pl

Its again that racist thinking. In other words, that whatever India does, good, or bad, or just exists as India, must be seen from a TSP lens. Equal equal onlee.

My question:

I should say - what activities is India performing in Afghanistan that leads to the death of Pakistani civilians or soldiers, or Pakistani proxies for that matter, to justify the statement of "proxy war"?

Arun
Ssurely you are not so primitive as to think that "wars" are always fought with guns. any more of this and i will ban you. pl

What ban you for this? If he can't deal with a gentle guy like you, how will he deal with an SDRE like me with an in your face, blunt attitude? .

My advice: based on his tone, you are wasting your time with a bone-head like him.

[CRamS]

Wasn't that the same logic that made UK give Nazi Germany, Czechsolvakia in 1938? Appeasing a terrorist.

Yes, from India's POV. But thats not the way US and its western lackeys see it. Go back to me school grades or marks analogy.

Over the weekend I will.

[Lalmohan]

americans only see the world through an american lens
everyone else is expected to fit in

[Prem]

A decline in HDI means that the number of wombs will be reduced. It will mean less children being born. Or those born not reaching maturity to start the cycle again. All in all the numbers of TSP population may come down to 120 to 150 millions and soon. If they don't change their ways even without an external Indian intervention. Think Ethiopia X 100.
JMT

This will make Indian's job easier. Lesser numbers to be caged and castrated for ultimate neutralization . Poaktards must come out as example of their "obsession" to the logical end of their existence for whole world to see.