India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

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chaanakya
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote:
chaanakya wrote: Do me a favour and make a search for /1,400,000 radiation deaths/ with my name and tell me how many times I have mentioned it anywhere .
As mentioned MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE users, the number is from Busby 's BBC interview
<ink.. Please do watch it> .. It is the same interview where he talks about nuclear explosions. :eek:

This was clearly articulated.. As you asked me to look at his paper, I did look and told you that his writing was rubbish.

If you don't agree with that kind of rubbish, just say so.. and perhaps as many advised, you should remove all that rubbish from brf.

You still can say if you think that was rubbish .. but to use inappropriate language as shown below is beyond pale. It is not Indic to call fellow brfite crude names.
..... What right you have pulled out of your m@&raf . ... Well looks like lying is your profession.

Per your suggestion I have reported the above lines.

I will not dignify other personal attacks and falsehoods with response.
Well did you find any reference to it in my post?? No . Did you find any reference to it in in the quotes of Bushby report linked? Now who has quoted that number MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE users ?? Why don't you ask them?? Your kind of rubbish stands thoroughly exposed. You are quoting Wiki which says Radiation is good and follow it up with loads of banana and nuts. And there is no multiple users but YOU who has brought this umpteen number of times in the hope that someone would take the bait. Why bring shame on your profession, if you have any. In fact this is your characteristic. remember negi ji objected to MWOW and your pathetic defense. I also came across a post where you were mocking a Mathematician who posted his papers and ultimately drove him away from the forum. You dont have any repentance for it as well.

And don't tell me what is Indic or not. If you are called crude names by me , please tell me so and point to the post? In fact your posts contain direct references in the manner that you are trying to object to. Dont lie everytime.
chaanakya
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote:
chaanakya wrote: I have given a direct quote of your post where you have posted saying /some level of radiation might actually be good for health and have a positive effect on population /. And before you advise other to look at /these data points/ why dont you do the same. Let me see where I have written about it and what I said about it.
<..> Do you have the intellectual honesty to accept that I quoted you rightly? At least I have not read you disagreeing with the idea.
What you quoted was my quote .. quoting wiki which which said that some studies have shown that some (low level) radiation may actually be good....

Far cry from your dishonest diatribe that I said (all) radiation is good.

I do have intellectual honesty to note that you have maliciously misstated what I said.

I have still not heard (in spite of asking multiple times) how many people you think died in Chernobyl (or Fukushima) due to radiation poising ..The numbers you have given quoting Busby and such are in millions . do you agree with those numbers? Simple question.
Well you have been directly quoted. And your dishonesty is amazing to say the least. Let me see where I quoted 1,400,000 then only question of agreement would arise? Just because you quoted and asked someone to agree or disagree wont do you any good since you have tried to project Radiation is good. Here again you are lying. It is you who have quoted such numbers. Just show me my post where I have quoted that number. Dont keep lying.
chaanakya
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote:तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय .. countering ignorance with knowledge ..
chaanakya wrote: And perhaps you dont know there is equivalence when converting something to one unit though some may not have existed prior to its enactment. For example Fahrenheit and Kalvin
Please do read <this post> AGAIN before trying the same old points.

True, one can convert Kelvin into Fahrenheit as they both measure temperature but it will make no sense to convert it into calorie or MeV (to measure energy of "thermal" neutron)

And it is idiotic to convert Fahrenheit into Sievert.
(even though some may call some places as radiation hot-spots ).

What Busby's did similarly was idiotic except it was many times more silly. This was already explained many times by GuruPrabhu, Bade, Mort, me. Virtually every paragraph in busby's paper posted by Chaanakya had gross errors.

It is incredible that one person is still stuck into coulomb is same as joule type nonsense. / :roll:
Of course it is Idiotic to convert Fahrenheit to Sievert. But is it idiotic to convert Fahrenheit to Kelvin? Well you may think so. :rotfl: Your bananspeak. :rotfl:
chaanakya
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chaanakya »

And of course dear Amber G. I am still waiting to see one of my post where I have refereed to or quoted the numbers 1,400,000. If not stop trolling. I doubt it very much as it seems to have come out of you know what.
gakakkad
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by gakakkad »

What you quoted was my quote .. quoting wiki which which said that some studies have shown that some (low level) radiation may actually be good....
humanity has been living with "low level" terrestrial radiation ever since it existed..there is no escaping radiation...good or bad...
svenkat
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by svenkat »

OT Alert: I would like to comment on a misunderstanding that happened in the maths corner,which I saw when I went through the old pages.

I think the maths corner is basically timepass through Prof AmberGji disagrees.AmberGji posts high school problems,no doubt challenging,and what interests AmberGji.I have found quite a few interesting.Some smart people solve the problems,others not so smart 'keep asking doubts'.

AmberGji is the man of the match,series as far as that corner goes.So much so you can think AmberGji is like a school teacher setting problems for her class.The credit for keeping the dhaaga alive goes to AmberGji.That particular prof took unnecessary umbrage to what was a genuine doubt and his interventions were obscure and tangential to the spirit of the thread.

Edited after Jwalajis post.

I went through that thread again.I was not a member then.AmberGji was not trolling.The prof seems to have left on his own.I agree with Jwalaji that his contributions were incisive.There was nothing wrong in Amberjis doubt becaused the profs question was poorly posed.I stand by what I have said with the correction that yes, the topics discussed were of a substantially higher level.

Also there was 'something phoney' about articles claimed to have written by him and the link opening in the name of sagun chanillo,not vs sunder.
Last edited by svenkat on 13 May 2012 19:39, edited 2 times in total.
JwalaMukhi
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by JwalaMukhi »

^ No,to my understanding I believe that Shri VSundarji (if I am not mistaken), mistook that the fora to be other than high school timepass and tried to inject and initiate pure/applied mathematics discussion. Hence he was promptly trolled out.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Long term back ground radiation is good for Life causing mutations and Genetic evolution.

Short term back ground radiation is bad for the organisms involved. Contributing to a general 3% birth defect rate in humans for instance. Just because we can't do anything about it does not mean it is good for you.

Along these lines O2 too is a deadly poison that our body chemistry 'deals with'. O3 for instance is deadly. CO too is deadly. Even DHMO in situations is deadly. All these are present in the back ground. It is best not to change the natural situation and hope that the new circumstance will be safe.
Amber G.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

chaanakya wrote: Of course it is Idiotic to convert Fahrenheit to Sievert. But is it idiotic to convert Fahrenheit to Kelvin? Well you may think so. :rotfl: Your bananspeak. :rotfl:
I am glad that it seems you are getting at least some part of it. Yes, it is perfectly fine to convert Fahrenheit to Kelvin. (Both measures temperature)

And it is idiotic to convert Fahrenheit to Sievert.

Similarly if is fine to convert bed (banana equivalent dose) into Sievert. ( Calling it bananaspeak is fine, if that helps to remove some ignorance)

It is idiotic to convert Roentgen in to Sievert. This has been pointed out a few times before but it may help to repeat it to remove some ignorance.

Hope this helps.
chaanakya
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chaanakya »

I had always got that. But did you get 1,400,000 anywhere? I am waiting for your cheap trick to point it to me. Till such time dont reply to me.
Amber G.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Sv - Thanks for the message. As I am mentioned in the message, I have to respond.

It is not OT as, I believe, all should be concerned if Brf environment is conductive or hostile to technical discussion.

It was hinted that Vsunder is prof Chanillo, (though there was/were a/few post(s) rebuking me, showing a list of papers published by "V Sunder (and not Chanillo" as to vouch for him). Some one who I respect, did know Prof Chanillo but she added that there is NO evidence that Vsunder and Chanillo is the same person. Perhaps VSunder or those who vouch for him, if they like, can clarify that.

In any case it is/was evident, and any one can see that with even without expert knowledge in Math.

1 - Some (virtually all) links pointed out by him pointed either to broken links, or some random math papers which different authors and absolutely no relationship to the subject.

2. Some parts (which I clearly asked to clarify to give him benefit of doubt) made absolutely no sense.

3. He had a choice to correct the links, or explain what he meant, instead he left after insulting me.
I know Shiv and Ramana vouched for him, but none of them ever corrected the links or explained what he meant. The messages are still there for everyone to see.

I certainly am not intimidated by Vsunder, I don't know him, and have seen nothing which gives me any indication to hold him in high regard I normally give to people I respect.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

JwalaMukhi wrote:^ No,to my understanding I believe that Shri VSundarji (if I am not mistaken), mistook that the fora to be other than high school timepass and tried to inject and initiate pure/applied mathematics discussion. Hence he was promptly trolled out.
Anyone who thinks that Math dhaga was/is fora for mere "high school time pass" revels him/herself to be clueless, as the Math pages contains all sort of serious (and recreational too) math.
Vsunderji posts, at least in Math dhaga, in my opinion, had little math content. Just some random links to random papers which made absolutely know sense. Even when politely asked, even the links were not corrected.

If anyone thinks that Vsunderji action, promptly trolled out AmberG, (s)he revels himself/herself to be clueless, and be able be fooled by fake soundi[ng math words ...in my humble opinion, of course
svenkat
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by svenkat »

Well,since I too have used the word 'timepass',I think a 'retraction' is in order.A number of problems are 'just problems',is that not what mathematics is about,but there is more in the sense of reflections on mathematics,history,maths olympiads,anecdotes,personalities,relation with computer science,problems solved by programs,iteration,recursion,the odd problem in physics etc.

AmberGji, no hard feelings,no? :)

Jwalaji,I enjoyed your solution to the Jernail,Begum,Ayesha problem. :) In a small way,I have tried to popularise it.
JwalaMukhi
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by JwalaMukhi »

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 412885.ece
With the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KKNPP) receiving the crucial nod from the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB), its first reactor is just one step away from attaining criticality.
The AERB approval was based on the data obtained during the ‘hot run' done last July. KKNPP officials said this has proved the efficiency of every component of the first reactor. It will now be ready for the loading of the enriched uranium fuel assemblies, which will mark the criticality of the reactor that will start generating power from mid-June onwards.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

This is a good step. It puts a proper number to the risks involved and provides an independent accounting for safety..

http://business-standard.com/india/news ... ts/474335/
Nuclear Power Corporation of India Ltd (NPCIL) has proposed to insure its nuclear assets, including the ‘nuclear island’ that holds core reactors.

It has said so to the government. The idea has been prompted by the belief that reactor use would be more and more of a commercial nature, with the increasing demand for energy. Currently, reactors are insured only till the time they are not operational. As soon as the fission material is fired into the reactors, the insurance cover ends. NPCIL bears the responsibility of any damages.

One issue that prevented insurance was existing government guidelines that bar inspection or survey of nuclear facilities. Since India is not a signatory to the non-proliferation treaty, it did not permit any inspection of its facilities. "The government would have to modify rules if it wants to insure assets," said an official. When asked, officials of the department of atomic energy would not comment.

There also have been efforts by NPCIL to insure assets without the required survey for operational risks but insurance companies have not responded to this call, said an official.

Analysts also say, due to the very high liability in case of an accident, that insurance companies do not want to insure nuclear assets without due diligence. Also, due to the high risk involved, nuclear insurance pools have evolved internationally that collectively reinsure the nuclear assets. The concept of insuring nuclear assets is prevalent among countries where dependence on nuclear energy is considerable. Highly specialised nuclear risk underwriters inspect the facilities to ascertain the risks.

“Given the experiences from the tragedies at Bhopal, Chernobyl and Fukushima, it is very clear that the exposure to liabilities is very high. To cover those and ensure proper and timely compensation, taking a protective cover is essential,” said Anuraag Sunder, principal consultant, PricewaterhouseCoopers.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Roperia »

Pervez Hoodbhoy criticizes India's nuclear and ballistic missile (Agni-5) program at a panel in Switzerland recently. My comment on this here

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1282390


Amber G.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

For some, the following may be of interest. The article is a profile of a young "new generation", nuclear engineer. The article is from an US university but it has it parallels in India. India, like US, had many nuclear engineers and scientists who were trained between the 1950s and 1970s, but entry to the field slowed in subsequent decades ...

Any way here is the link (From MIT):

A new generation works to fulfill the promise of nuclear energy
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by vishvak »

Giving Up Nuclear Power 'Harmful', Says PM
"We are not in a situation in which Japan is there... It would be harmful for the country's interest to pass an Ordinance of self-denial
..
The Prime Minister said that government would never do anything which creates doubts about the safety of nuclear plants.
..
"ordered a complete revisit to all the 19 reactors. Those findings of the NPCIL are on the websites for everybody to see," he said.

Germany relies on France to meet its power need and France has a large number of nuclear power plants.
Suppose Germany reduces user of nuclear power, if France supplies Germany with say all power from only renewable sources, and otherwise France uses nuclear power for its own needs, even then can it be concluded that Germany has reduced its reliance on nuclear power?

That is some nice juggling. One country continue nuclear production without bothering about reduction from 'nuclear' sources, others make a show of reduction of the same and everyone thinks now that Europe better with renewable.

Per link,
In 2004, 425.8 TWh out of the country's total production of 540.6 TWh of electricity was from nuclear power (78.8%), the highest percentage in the world.
..
France is also forced to be the world's largest net exporter of electric power (exporting 18% of its total production via 10 GW overall of interconnection capacity[2] to Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Britain, and Germany),
..
France's electricity price is among the lowest in Europe,[5] however this figure should be treated with caution, since the stations were essentially built using French government sovereign debt
..
some reactors close on weekends because there is no market for the electricity.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

What's astounding in the Hoodbhoy discussion group, is the degree to which Pakistan is indulged in the West. And even asked about the significance of India's Agni 5. Are there programmes where Iranians are similarly indulged and in a few cases, applauded like Hoodbhoy? And asked about Israeli missiles or American missiles?
nelson
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by nelson »

WTF is happening? Is there any link between Pervez*bhoy, Church and this...

U.K. MPs sign anti-Kudankulam letter to Manmohan
shyamd
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by shyamd »

No this is part of the western effort to damage any major infrastructure project using the laws of the land and harnessing leftists/tribals.

Narmada, WB, now this is more open confrontation from the west against India (we caught the individuals red handed and deported them). Central Govt has invested a lot in KKNP and wont be given up.

We should have tried the westerners and sentenced them to jail for a period!! Glad that govt is aware of the game and have tightened the rules and are watching the players closely. But who cares? INC is yeevil onleee.

By the way, this anti KKNP is done by the UK/EU. US has actually increased cooperation for clean energy tech and shale gas etc - possibly due to Iran.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by vishvak »

How come the EU members, who themselves have nuclear weapons and use nuclear energy within Europe, talk all this? This is non sense.

In fact, given the attitude of EU, EU must immediately reduce dependence on nuclear energy to nil and dismantle all nuclear weapons. Aren't nuclear weapons harmful for humans?

India should also have forward looking NGOs with global-oulook for better humanity, Protests can be much more effective. Instead of others being confused of which country to include for which issue, the EU as a whole should be made to answer for human rights issues within EU.
Last edited by vishvak on 17 May 2012 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
satya
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by satya »

Here's a different take on Nuke power & Indo-US Nuke agreement & this anti nuke thingie : Post agreement US showed its hand too early as they wanted to sell f-16I type Nuke power stuff to us at price of say F-22 & sharing the deal with we all know who ( specially the wannabe or already whitemen nation in Asia ) . Us being us & true to our nature never say no but cannot say yes ( we don't have money specially ones they expected) so came this anti -nuke protest not planned just happened around that time & someone's heads or some other part scratching moment clicked rest we all know . We played both sides anti -pro and now French , US&sons having second thoughts about what to sell and at what price ( very imp. for what i heard it was worse than highway robbery) . Now again media projection is govt. showed resolve :(( which means in my shallow understanding that we are ready to do deal but on price that's comparable to Russian one from 80s nothing less & yes same level of tech transfer to start with if not more protests & more foreign hands news-interviews via retired babus & DGPsaabs finding true call in Hinduism :rotfl: for one & even if they agree on price & tech transfer they have to give us money via loan or whatever name they want to put on it again those USSR type ones ( those were good old days where MPs used to ask for scholarships to study in USSR but now they think they own dilli durbar :wink: ) or what Japanese showed in their first phase funding of Delhi Metro nothing less then its ok plus yes we need fellowships & scholarships for our anti-nuke boys we all know where to .
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Neela »

^^^^

Did not understand one little bit of that
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by shyamd »

Satya ji is saying that US tried to sell old tech (LWR) to India at extremely inflated prices (price of an F22). Anti nuke protests broke out at the time and EU US got too clever by half and took advantage of them.

We dont have the level of money that EU and US are thinking we do, so they are going back to the table and thinking how much and whta to offer . India asking for prices comparable to 80s on good terms. Like Japan who gave us good funding for Delhi metro. Is this possible? Probably unlikely so anti nuke protests, foreign hand will continue.

India is ready to do the deal but at Indian terms and no budging on that. - I guess we are the customer and the deal is we pick what we want, not let them arm twist us.

Correct me if I am wrong satya ji.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by satya »

ShyamDjee you are correct & thanks for doing this.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by ramana »

It was clear as daylight to me. Neelaji need to put on your dehati turban.
Only no one external took advantage of it.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Russia gave us loan at 4% interest rate. It was a hard currency loan however. JBIC loans are on similar terms, as low as 2.85% IIRC correctly for Metro, w/ a 5 year grace period. Yes I too heard on the grapevine that NPCIL suffered major sticker shock. Esp. when they did the math on what the electricity would cost the average mango. Not just that, there all sorts of IP & liability demands as well. Apparently AREVA refused to supply the simulator(critical for modern reactors) and demanded that NPCIL operators be sent to 'Ffronnsse' for simulator training every 3-6 months. Also NPCIL is firm on extracting the fuel core design from all comers. This is tauba tuaba amongst the Nuke set.

The problem for GOI is that delays make reactors more expensive. More problems are discovered, more safety systems slapped on, etc. It is hard to know what we are going to pay for these things.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by ramana »

I think the GOI knows what its doing. Besides Indian rupee is falling. Need to take wholistic views.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by negi »

How is LWR old technology ? Btw if I remember correctly some time back the claim being made was Westinghouse and GE were trying to sell untested reactor design to us. Sounds conflicting to me.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Neela »

Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Neela »

Looks like those deported back to Europe seem to have now pursued a political-pressure approach with the letter.
I am appalled that some two-bit politician in the UK gets so much press coverage in the newspapers. And I do not think this is the end - dreading a "high-level delegation" of MPs from Europe arriving in Koodankulam to check human rights abuses etc. Give them an inch.....

From this letter link
“Non-violent protesters are being intimidated, harassed, imprisoned, and falsely charged. We understand that from one police station alone, charges have been brought against more than 50,000 people including about 6,500 for sedition and ‘war against the State' in the last eight months,” it says.
Charges against 50000 people? Like the 7000000000000 Indian soldiers in Kashmir? British MPs show the same resolve for Dow's sponsorship of Olympics .
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by vera_k »

India asks US to supply liquid shale gas
Shale gas development in the United States has turned the gas market there from shortage to glut, and cheap US LNG export projects are soon expected to provide stiff competition for Australian LNG export developments.

The US Energy Information Administration estimates that China holds the world’s largest shale gas reserves, with 1,275 trillion cubic feet, followed by the United States at 862 trillion cubic feet.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Neela wrote:
“Non-violent protesters are being intimidated, harassed, imprisoned, and falsely charged. We understand that from one police station alone, charges have been brought against more than 50,000 people including about 6,500 for sedition and ‘war against the State' in the last eight months,” it says.
Charges against 50000 people? Like the 7000000000000 Indian soldiers in Kashmir? British MPs show the same resolve for Dow's sponsorship of Olympics .
I have no love for British MPs...but at the same time " charges against 50,0000 people ... 700000000000 Indian soldiers in cashmere" are sourced by many so called Indians themselves...there are plenty of Bidwai's and Busby worshipers who similarly go for 140,000,000 deaths due to radiation..whole sea getting radioactive and kill all the fishes in Indian ocean .....while GOI, Indian scientists are evil/incompetent .. etc..

They and MP's feed on each other.. :evil:
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Very Important paper Environment Health Publication - Study by MIT
says that they found undetected DNA damage even when radiation was much higher..This study may surprise most of people here.
Integrated Molecular Analysis Indicates Undetectable DNA Damage in Mice after Continuous Irradiation at ~400-fold Natural Background Radiation
Abstract:
ACKGROUND: In the event of a nuclear accident, people are exposed to elevated levels of continuous low dose-rate radiation. Nevertheless, most of the literature describes the biological effects of acute radiation. Our major aim is to reveal potential genotoxic effects of low dose-rate radiation.

OBJECTIVES: DNA damage and mutations are well established for their carcinogenic effects. Here, we assessed several key markers of DNA damage and DNA damage responses in mice exposed to low dose-rate radiation.

METHODS: We studied low dose-rate radiation using a variable low dose-rate irradiator consisting of flood phantoms filled with 125Iodine-containing buffer. Mice were exposed to 0.0002 cGy/min (~400X background radiation) continuously over the course of 5 weeks. We assessed base lesions, micronuclei, homologous recombination (using fluorescent yellow direct repeat [FYDR] mice), and transcript levels for several radiation-sensitive genes.

RESULTS: Under low dose-rate conditions, we did not observe any changes in the levels of the DNA nucleobase damage products hypoxanthine, 8-oxo-7,8-dihydroguanine, 1,N6-ethenoadenine or 3,N4-ethenocytosine above background. The micronucleus assay revealed no evidence that low dose-rate radiation induced DNA fragmentation. Furthermore, there was no evidence of double strand break-induced homologous recombination. Finally, low dose-rate radiation did not induce Cdkn1a, Gadd45a, Mdm2, Atm, or Dbd2. Importantly, the same total dose, when delivered acutely, induced micronuclei and transcriptional responses.

CONCLUSIONS: Together, these results demonstrate in an in vivo animal model that lowering the dose-rate suppresses the potentially deleterious impact of radiation, and calls attention to the need for a deeper understanding of the biological impact of low dose-rate radiation.

Citation: Olipitz W, Wiktor-Brown D, Shuga J, Pang B, McFaline J, Lonkar P, et al. 2012. Integrated Molecular Analysis Indicates Undetectable DNA Damage in Mice after Continuous Irradiation at ~400-fold Natural Background Radiation. Environ Health Perspect :-. http://dx.doi.org/10.1289/ehp.1104294
This is also a main MIT news
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/prol ... -0515.html
A new look at prolonged radiation exposure
MIT study suggests that at low dose-rate, radiation poses little risk to DNA.

Worth reading in full.. posting some excerpts..
A new study from MIT scientists suggests that the guidelines governments use to determine when to evacuate people following a nuclear accident may be too conservative.

The study, led by Bevin Engelward and Jacquelyn Yanch and published in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives, found that when mice were exposed to radiation doses about 400 times greater than background levels for five weeks, no DNA damage could be detected.

Current U.S. regulations require that residents of any area that reaches radiation levels eight times higher than background should be evacuated. However, the financial and emotional cost of such relocation may not be worthwhile, the researchers say.

There are no data that say that’s a dangerous level,” says Yanch, a senior lecturer in MIT’s Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering. “This paper shows that you could go 400 times higher than average background levels and you’re still not detecting genetic damage. It could potentially have a big impact on tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in the vicinity of a nuclear powerplant accident or a nuclear bomb detonation, if we figure out just when we should evacuate and when it’s OK to stay where we are.”

Until now, very few studies have measured the effects of low doses of radiation delivered over a long period of time. This study is the first to measure the genetic damage seen at a level as low as 400 times background (0.0002 centigray per minute, or 105 cGy in a year). { for perceptive, this is about 1000 mSV /Yr = 10000000 bed /yr - about 1000 times 1mSV insisted by some.. about 50 times the current limit when one is forced to evacuate .. about 4 times the limit allowable (which they increased to 250 mSV) for emergency workers in Japan..Amber G notes }

Almost all radiation studies are done with one quick hit of radiation. That would cause a totally different biological outcome compared to long-term conditions,” says Engelward, an associate professor of biological engineering at MIT.
<snip:
(Background radiation . add up to about 3 mSV per year in US)

“Exposure to low-dose-rate radiation is natural, and some people may even say essential for life. The question is, how high does the rate need to get before we need to worry about ill effects on our health?” Yanch says.

Previous studies have shown that a radiation level of 10.5 cGy, the total dose used in this study, does produce DNA damage if given all at once. { This is what I said in one of VERY early message - I said that below this one does not see any symptoms ... LNT predicts about 4% increased risk of cancer in life time } However, for this study, the researchers spread the dose out over five weeks, using radioactive iodine as a source. The radiation emitted by the radioactive iodine is similar to that emitted by the damaged Fukushima reactor in Japan.

At the end of five weeks, the researchers tested for several types of DNA damage, using the most sensitive techniques available. Those types of damage fall into two major classes: base lesions, in which the structure of the DNA base (nucleotide) is altered, and breaks in the DNA strand. They found no significant increases in either type.
<snip - Technical details about DNA damage >
... “My take on this is that this amount of radiation is not creating very many lesions to begin with, and you already have good DNA repair systems.
Doug Boreham, a professor of medical physics and applied radiation sciences at McMaster University, says the study adds to growing evidence that low doses of radiation are not as harmful as people often fear.

“Now, it’s believed that all radiation is bad for you, and any time you get a little bit of radiation, it adds up and your risk of cancer goes up,” says Boreham, who was not involved in this study. “There’s now evidence building that that is not the case.”

Most of the radiation studies on which evacuation guidelines have been based were originally done to establish safe levels for radiation in the workplace,.....

....“when you’ve got a contaminated environment, then the source is no longer controlled, and every citizen has to pay for their own dose avoidance,” Yanch says. “They have to leave their home or their community, maybe even forever. They often lose their jobs, like you saw in Fukushima. And there you really want to call into question how conservative in your analysis of the radiation effect you want to be. Instead of being conservative, it makes more sense to look at a best estimate of how hazardous radiation really is.”

Those conservative estimates are based on acute radiation exposures, and then extrapolating what might happen at lower doses and lower dose-rates, Engelward says. “Basically you’re using a data set collected based on an acute high dose exposure to make predictions about what’s happening at very low doses over a long period of time, and you don’t really have any direct data. It’s guesswork,” she says. “People argue constantly about how to predict what is happening at lower doses and lower dose-rates.”
....
“It is interesting that, despite the evacuation of roughly 100,000 residents, the Japanese government was criticized for not imposing evacuations for even more people. From our studies, we would predict that the population that was left behind would not show excess DNA damage — this is something we can test using technologies recently developed in our laboratory,” she adds.
<snip>
Pay attention to the following quote from Jacqueline Yanch, MIT
"Instead of being conservative, it makes more sense to look at a best estimate of how hazardous radiation really is."
****
(I have some thoughts on this... will post later...)
Amber G.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ This news also appears, and is written nicely here:
Low-dose study finds no effects
Mice exposed to low-dose radiation for an extended period showed no signs of DNA damage, said a study from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) that challenges existing radiation guidelines.
<snip>
So much for all than panic...
Remember, the dose these mice received (and shown no effect) is about 10,000,000 times more than what one would receive (in addition to background) in a year living near a NPP
Gerard
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Gerard »

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/252 ... estic.html
Despite an increase in fuel production in the last two years, nuclear power plants dependent on domestic fuel are running at just 67 per cent of their capacity, adversely impacting India’s nuclear ambitions.
harbans
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by harbans »

A Parliamentary Standing Committee, which quizzed officials from department of atomic energy, said it failed to understand why DAE could not amicably sort out issues with the local populace through extensive public awareness and outreach programmes,
considering that a “large amount of money” had been pumped into the two projects.

The DAE stood firm on its notion that uranium mining did not cause any health hazard. It carried out health surveys to drive home the point, but did not communicate the findings to those to whom it mattered the most.

“The fact that uranium mining does not cause health hazard needs to be appropriately conveyed to the people so as to convince them and win their confidence,” the House panel said in its report reprimanding the atomic energy department.
Theo, i know why did you not post this part.

For those who oppose NPPs it's apparent, foreign or Indian NPPs run by imported uranium= bad. Because unsafe, imported uranium expensive, Fukushima, Long Island and so on.

When Indian NPPs operate at less than full power due to reasons of propagated irrational frear as above, then it sort of reflects on Nuclear power issue itself.

If Fear of Nuclear power is the reason you oppose it, say so. Don't say Nuclear production is low because of some unknown reason. It is precisely because of a lobby that chooses to propagate irrational fear.

Amazing the problem here from Theo's article is irrational fear as exhibited in Kundakulam. This time it is mining, not even land issues. Exactly the same folks who oppose Kundalam for XYZ reason and not 'irrational fear of the NPP' will say the plant is running inefficiently for XYZ reason..but note NEVER that it is irrational fear that is the cause of it running at low output. And the quote obviously will be selective.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

delete
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 25 May 2012 04:49, edited 1 time in total.
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