Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 06:36

lending is clearly a weak point of this system... repeated fees will add up. good points.
proposal says receiving account will pay it, but of course interest may take this into account.

i wonder whether they have done detailed number crunching? their presentation is light on that.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Dec 2013 06:49

SwamyG wrote:In my opinion your words are really elitist, and displays disdain for humans in general.

I can argue with a Mullah, EJ, a Paki better than my parents. I can argue with a Hindu priest better than them. I can equally converse with an atheist, theist and agnostic or even the Dharmic better then them. I can use logic and rational language better than them. They are more superstitious than me. I can be discerning and see the schemes of politicians, bureaucrats, diplomats and countries. Heck, I can create conspiracy theories too from thin air or based on flimsy grounds

But in no way do I have a low opinion of them, because I understand their point of view. They are what they are, because of their time and circumstances. And they are better than me in so many ways. And they vote for BJP

Now consider millions of such parents in India, who are products of their time, place and circumstances. To you what seems a rational argument might not sound a rational argument from their perspective of fears and desires. And India is filled with billions of such people. If you cannot understand them, then how are you going to effect a change? Brute Force? Or by ridiculing and insulting them? Not my way. Sure there are people whom we would want label morons and idiots. But thinking low of the bulk?

Well then you haven't understood my post much, is all I can say.

I do NOT have a low opinion of the overall intellectual abilities of Indians. As a matter of fact, I remember being riled by a BRFite called Abhijeet who actually did have a low opinion of Indian intelligence and I am probably the only person in here to have created an entire thread to demolish his pet biases. You can find that thread (called 'Intelligence Studies and Indians' if I remember right ) in the Tech & Economic Forum.

Having said that, I don't believe it is 'morally wrong' like you seem to do to generalize about a community, as long as you can provide a rational argument for why you think the generalization may be valid. So certainly some communities are more entrepreneurial, more 'aspirational' than others. Many here have expressed the view that some communities are more prone than others to fall for political 'gimmicks' - and I don't see anything morally wrong in such positions as long as the stance can be explained.

In my post, I clearly stated that the public of Rajasthan, MP and Chattisgarh have proven through their vote that they are part of the 'aspirational' set and that they are voting for development. I also said I did not see the same sagacity in the public of Delhi. Clearly, my statements have been made with a certain motivation. If you choose to react to them as if I genuinely held the people of India in contempt (& I have not seen you react like I have done to others who actually did hold that position) - then I am afraid there is not much I can do.

ashashi · Post by **ashashi** » 12 Dec 2013 06:54

Karan M wrote:lending is clearly a weak point of this system... repeated fees will add up. good points.
proposal says receiving account will pay it, but of course interest may take this into account.

i wonder whether they have done detailed number crunching? their presentation is light on that.

Also, the concept of progressive taxation goes out of the window. It is unfair to expect a low wage earners to pay the same tax rate as millionaires.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2013 06:54

there is another one in the mould of IIC called IHC (india habitat center). its building is gigantic that would make a iit/iim proud in size and scale. located on Lodhi road no less.
its membership seems to be wider and its possible for middle rung insiders to aspire for entry unlike IIC which is the jedi council. my bil a journalist was trying to get in last yr based on reco by some minister in delhi govt!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Dec 2013 07:06

I could never understand why progressive tax rate is a good thing, always sounds to me like one of those socialist shibboleths which did nothing but provide a outlet to vent frustration for people who would rather not work.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Dec 2013 07:11

Karan M wrote:>>The present Life Trustees are: Professor M.G.K. Menon, Dr. Kapila Vatsyayan, Shri Soli J. Sorabjee, Shri N.N. Vohra and Justice B.N. Srikrishna. Each Trustee is an eminent authority in his/her field, bringing years of experience to the governing of the Centre. Every two years, two Trustees are elected in addition to the Life Trustees, to the Board.

Check this out, this is probably the birthplace of committees to beat committees. Check out the folks
http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/71

Pretty swank, (cue vina unhappy at dilli billis)

http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/219
http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/55

Naaice...paid for by junta tax onlee? MNREGA for poor, IIC for disbursers.

talking of swanky the national admin academy at mussoorie,where they train IAS/IRS baboos is pretty swanky too. once u get into babudom ,lifetime of comfort on public money awaits you,right from training.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Lal+Bah ... 2&dpr=1.25

i mean look at there hostels ,gyms etc...5 star hotel quality..

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 12 Dec 2013 07:21

No rich person pays income tax. Only salaried class. Why then continue it? Progressive?

95% of excise tax comes from 25 articles. Why not just remove others?

By the way what is the purpose of stamp duty? I don't think any other nation has that.

Entire taxes, duties etc created a system of increased bribes, loot, crime. Time to go for radical thinking.

ashashi · Post by **ashashi** » 12 Dec 2013 07:31

Sanku wrote:I could never understand why progressive tax rate is a good thing, always sounds to me like one of those socialist shibboleths which did nothing but provide a outlet to vent frustration for people who would rather not work.

Spoken like a true Republican.

I do not favor tax the rich mentality of the liberals. But there are a few merits to the progressive taxation if it is not over done.

1. Middle Class and Poor wage earners spend nearly 100% of their income, where as, rich people spend only a small portion of their income every month. Taking into account the sales tax, excise tax and other non-income taxes, middleclass and poor would be paying higher overtall tax rates than the rich, if there is a flat income tax rate.
2. Poor do not earn enough to have a "decent" standard of living, cannot afford pay the higher tax rates needed by the flat income tax rates.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 07:31

wow man, now i know why folks were saying babu -land is not bad place to be in when chota bachha...these places make 5 star private stuff look stale. and they are in resort areas. awesome.

LBSNAA in Mussoorie? Looks right out of some resort or movie shoot. of course flower pots have to be there since GOI loves flower pots everyplace.

IHC -wow,

The INDIA HABITAT CENTRE was conceived to provide a physical environment which would serve as a catalyst for a synergetic relationship between individuals and institutions working in diverse habitat related areas and therefore, maximise their total effectiveness. To facilitate this interaction, the Centre provides a range of facilities.

whats that mean in plain english??!?

room
http://www.indiahabitat.org/memb.htm
eating drinking
http://www.indiahabitat.org/memb2.htm
running shunning
http://www.indiahabitat.org/memb3.htm

man, some dilli billis are privileged creatures.

must be that every other GOI leftist must be having access to all such swank stuff.
and no wonder they dislike NaMo. hes a sign good times may come to an end.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2013 07:39

and most of these institutions got the land free in perpetuity , and pay nothing in property taxes etc.
periodically the state govt raises these issues - but ONLY because the some babus left out in the cold want lifetime free membership to get inside the circle.
once that is facilitated, it goes quiet again.
thats the case in blr with bangalore club, century club and bowring instt - full of babus and MLA/MP/politician types plus ofcourse the old money who have hereditary membership.
even the relatively new koramangala club and indiranagar club are off limits to normal people and babus crave to get in there as well.

I wouldnt blame TT for his PruFrock - having such a place under ones control is a perfect way to gain visibility and influence among the wheeler dealers and power elites. places where they can put aside dikhawa political and personal rivalries and get business done. throw in expats and the arms dealers and agents too. one nice happy family for synergy.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 12 Dec 2013 07:46

India Habitat Centre's not all that bad IMO.... from the exhibitions/functions/open forum/hosting artists and their art POV. Not absolutely leftist stuff either... even though most of art types have leftist leanings.
I used to be a regular there; I still remember a religious paintings exhibition where I stared at a minimalist Navagraha painting for hours.

PS: I just checked the Calendar of events for old times sake and Chandan Mitra and the former Israeli Ambassador feature this month.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Dec 2013 07:48

Karan M wrote: IHC -wow,
The INDIA HABITAT CENTRE was conceived to provide a physical environment which would serve as a catalyst for a synergetic relationship between individuals and institutions working in diverse habitat related areas and therefore, maximise their total effectiveness. To facilitate this interaction, the Centre provides a range of facilities.

Typical YumBeeYay speak conveying minimum information in the maximum amount of strategic sounding words.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2013 07:52

next phase of the Nilekani trial balloon being floated by the Dynasty would be...

have him appear in some function with yuvaraj and mataji, conversing deeply and showing good bonhomie. have the MSM trumpet that and increase the clarion call for a honest and effective PM candidate unrelated to dirty politics. ..someone way above the genocidal communal Namo. use that to attract the middle class urban vote, youth vote and have the B- and C- teams get the rural vote. urban india knows NN for sure - far more than AKA.

this will be a veiled signal to other aspirant camps to back off..embarass them by having MSM ask them if they have PM ambitions forcing a public posture of withdrawal.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Dec 2013 07:54

methinks there should be a dhaaga for these centres.. so that if a decent government gets elected,people can petition for probing into finances that go into it..

The photo poeted by Karan M is a residential facility of LBSIAA musoorie ..why is it that trainee civil servants get such swanky "hostels" while trainee docs and engineers,even in prestigious IIT/AIIMS get dirty,smelly non air-conditioned hostels without attached toilets even?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Dec 2013 07:55

w.r.t nilekani ,we should start pre-emptively exposing him on social media...we don't want another vote katuaa.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Dec 2013 08:11

nachiket wrote: IHC -wow, The INDIA HABITAT CENTRE was conceived to provide a physical environment which would serve as a catalyst for a synergetic relationship between individuals and institutions ypical YumBeeYay speak conveying minimum information in the maximum amount of strategic sounding words.

Had lunch there last year.Variety of food, cheap but ok. Host told me that Coal Dallas have residences near by , ranging from 200 Crore to 300 Crores.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 12 Dec 2013 08:28

Transaction tax is a brain dead zombie on steroids

The so called Arthkranti group has NOT give Transaction Tax DRAFT in past 20 years, They say that once TT-law is passed, then all transactions above Rs 2000 will be via bank only (or attract unspecified fine) and all bank transactions will attract tax of x%, where x is 0.5% to 2%. If this is the case, then TT is one of the most idiotic tax proposals one can make. And fact that people here are cheering shows how much people get impressed by person\party with brand name and not by details of the design. A person with brandname, say Gadkari, makes an idiotic statement of repealing all taxes and having TT, and instead of looking at the design behind the TT , his fans i.e. BJP fans dance like cheerleaders. If NaMo supports this proposal, then I will have to tell all in black and white not to vote for NaMo. And I will have concrete reason --- because I can show that implementing TT will ruin almost entire economy. For details, you may wish to start another thread.

A good tax regime will be wealth tax of x%, inheritance tax of 30x%, income tax with two slabs ( 15x% , 30x%), no braindead VAT, non brain dead Service Tax, no brain dead GST, excise only on vehicles and nothing else, 300% customs duty . x will be decided on needs. The details are in chap-25 of http://rahulmehta.com/301.htm

====

Back to electoral politics

chaanakya: Met some of the relatives from Delhi just before the results ( at patna) they are well placed, successful in life. , Middle class, educated, ITVity , Bank, MNCs etc. All of them said they voted for AAP. I asked why? They replied because of their anti corruption stand and Loakpal Bill. Probed further they had not much idea about Lokapal and how it will reduce corruption . How Janloakpal is different than Govt Lokpal Bill. Except that they wanted PM to be included. I said PM is perceived to be honest and has agreed to include PM within the ambit so what's different. No answer.

The BJP-leaders promoted the slogan "put with corruption, we will give you growth". Since 2008 , rather 1998, I have been telling all that over 90% voters are going to hate this nonsense. But BJP\NaMo got votes, only because Congress was "all corruption, no growth, no law order", and this success of BJP\NaMo was touted as "shut up you anti-corruption activists ; see the voters love giving bribes , as long as growth and law-order is coming" !!! Not only voter hated BJP's slogan of "put with corruption, we will give you growth, law-order" , they (rightly?) saw this as inability of BJP leaders of removing corruption, lack of courage in BJP leaders to fight against corruption, and also that BJP leaders want to benefit from corruption. The experience of giving bribe comes with humiliation, fear, harassment and anxiety. And so voters had deep dislike for BJP's "put up with corruption, we will deliver law-order, growth " statement.

AK doesnt want to reduce corruption even by 1%. He is just a crook on hire. But Missionaries and MNC-owners saw that voters see BJP's lack of anti-corruption stand as oppurtunity to hit. Success of AK is not in his speech or deliverty, but paid-media backing only, and silence of BJP on corruption issue . He and PIL-traders father-son Pradushans drafted a law called Janlokpal and hailed Janlokpal as remedy to all corruption. The BJP leaders had no strength and courage to tell voters or even volunteers than "Janlokpal is a sham", something which I did since apr-2011 (see chap-45 of http://rahulmehta.com/301.htm ). So Janlokpal won unopposed. And paid-media made AK a hero of "anti-corruption". All in all, in the anti-corruption vote bank, there was no contest !! It was "AK vs none".

chaanakya : Did they know that Kejariwal take foreign funding? Not sure. Do they know the motive behind Agitation on corruption which resulted in giving Congis time to prlong their hold on power? Do they know that his supporters include those who have taken money from ISI of Pakitan? No , there is no proof or it is a propaganda of BJP.

Well, why didnt BJP make pamphlets and DVDs to inform volunteers and voters about it? Something we did since long? Pls see youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygp-EM5cOpQ , and many more. Since apr-2011, we have been informing volunteers etc that Janlokpal is sham, Arvind Ghandy is adopted son of Sonia Ghandy, Arvind Gandhi is Duratma Gandhi reborn etc etc. And also informing about better law-drafts to reduce problems of India. What have "nationalists" done? NOTHING. They left the vacuum unattended. And so Missionary-MNC could plant their agent.

So AK\Congress go with fraudulent ponzi schemes, and what are nationalists doing? Some of us (if at all we are nationalists) worked day and night to inform better alternatives to Janlokpal and also inform how AK's Janlokpal is crooked law and how AK is a crook. But rest 95% nationalists spend all hours in slogan shouting, leader worshiping and also abusing people who propose legislative reforms. Well, the voters who were looking for good laws to reduce corruption didnt get information about good laws, and so fell for bad drugs.

chaanakya: Politically illiterate and naive.

Agree. And same applies for over 99% of the BJP\Congress\CPM\SP supporters.

===

johneeG: Saars, I think if the AAP supporter is fixated on Fordriwal, then don't attack Fordri instead try to point out to about his associates, specially Bhushan. I think Archan saar also asked about this.

well, do you think once can convince a NaMo fangal/fanboy not to vote for NaMo because other BJP leaders are corrupt? NO Do you think one can convince SRK fangal not to watch SRK movie because other actors are bad or even criminals? NO. Most fanboys and fangals will never never accept argument that "he is unworthy because his friends are friend".

People in AAP-fanclub are rational. They rightly see that BJP leaders and Congress leaders DO NOT want to reduce corruption. And for them, corruption is major issue. They fell for AAP as they saw no alternative. Now one option is NaMo can accept all Misisonary-MNC terms and Missionary/MNC will reduce paid-media coverage to AK and so NaMo can sail thru. And another alternative I propose is that we give FULL information about alternative better law-drafts to AAPians and challange them to put these better law-drafts in AAP manifesto. When AK refuses, that will expose AK. I have been successful in making many former-AAPians anti-AAP using this right method.

====

Karan M wrote:kejri has just won public support by cannily using a variety of means - Anna as Gandhi, Baba ramdev and finally the youth/middle class desire of clean politics by portraying himself as underdog/savior with MSM shrieking his name like a banshee.

Well, AK successful because of paid-media, and fact that other two parties had NOTHING to offer to reduce corruption, and harassment with goes with corruption. For anti-corruption vote-bank, it was "AK vs none". Congress created AK, as AK will now mainly cut middle class vote. The slum/muslim/SC network of congress is still intact, nation wide. Pls see % voting across states in India. The % voting shows that Congress vote bank is still intact . Now give 20% BJP votes to AAP and give 5% Congress votes to AAP. See new %. Congress may win Loksabha-may-2014 by windfalls .

Chhatisgadh is timebomb for BJP. Some 3% voted for NoTA. These are all educated middle class people. They hate BJP and Congress. And some half of them they will become AAP's unpaid volunteers. And each of them will get 1-100 voters, say 5 on average !! And mostly, they will be pulling BJP voters to AAP.

but what surprised me is the most educated supporters were not only rabid and uncivil, but also completely clueless of the details. merely supporting him on basis of perceived traits. didn't speak volumes about young educated voters and how/why they support whom they support. another friend pointed out, rhetoric sells, facts dont. and kejri is good at rhetoric and has built an "us" versus "them" angle in the minds of his target audience.

well, many people serious about legislative reforms have same feeling for Congress as well as BJP supporters.

Enough for one day. Have a nice day

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Dec 2013 08:29

As some one who is under 1 km from IHC I will not dispute that assertion.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 12 Dec 2013 08:42

gakakkad wrote:
Karan M wrote:>>The present Life Trustees are: Professor M.G.K. Menon, Dr. Kapila Vatsyayan, Shri Soli J. Sorabjee, Shri N.N. Vohra and Justice B.N. Srikrishna. Each Trustee is an eminent authority in his/her field, bringing years of experience to the governing of the Centre. Every two years, two Trustees are elected in addition to the Life Trustees, to the Board.

Check this out, this is probably the birthplace of committees to beat committees. Check out the folks
http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/71

Pretty swank, (cue vina unhappy at dilli billis)

http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/219
http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/55

Naaice...paid for by junta tax onlee? MNREGA for poor, IIC for disbursers.

talking of swanky the national admin academy at mussoorie,where they train IAS/IRS baboos is pretty swanky too. once u get into babudom ,lifetime of comfort on public money awaits you,right from training.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Lal+Bah ... 2&dpr=1.25

i mean look at there hostels ,gyms etc...5 star hotel quality..

I liked! the photos of The Play "The Importance of Being Earnest" by Oscar Wilde

though I miss its relevance to aam of hindustan. There are several Tagore plays. May be these are people who want to go to UN via IFS route? They are being trained to enjoy Broadway.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 08:44

rahul saar,

can you please not bash all us pore "fans" just because we were debating this.

And fact that people here are cheering shows how much people get impressed by person\party with brand name and not by details of the design. A person with brandname, say Gadkari, makes an idiotic statement of repealing all taxes and having TT, and instead of looking at the design behind the TT , his fans i.e. BJP fans dance like cheerleaders.

as far as i can see, nobody is dancing for this. it "sounds" positive or interesting, but a ) we need details b ) without details, the debate here has already shown possible issues with this proposal.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 08:47

gakakkad wrote:methinks there should be a dhaaga for these centres.. so that if a decent government gets elected,people can petition for probing into finances that go into it..

The photo poeted by Karan M is a residential facility of LBSIAA musoorie ..why is it that trainee civil servants get such swanky "hostels" while trainee docs and engineers,even in prestigious IIT/AIIMS get dirty,smelly non air-conditioned hostels without attached toilets even?

he he...aur jalegi thread rakha to!

or we should be happy all the money has not gone to MNREGA alone.

but on a serious note, what you said really strikes home. my mom used to buy medicines out of her own salary for her patients being a govt doc., and every govt hospital i have been to is in intermediate stage between decrepit and barely maintainable.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Dec 2013 08:47

BJP, and specifically Modi, was certainly far better placed than the Dynasty from an anti-corruption standpoint. As long as the game was confined to Congress as an opponent, the BJP was sure-shot winner. Now that we have an opponent with stronger anti-corruption credentials that has entered the fray, the BJP will have to raise the level of its own game accordingly. It has to come out with an anti-corruption vision that challenges the AAP's, and show determination in implementation through drafts...

Once the BJP does decide to take the challenge head-on, the high-ground that AAP currently occupies will vanish.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 12 Dec 2013 08:49

Rahul Mehta wrote: Chhatisgadh is timebomb for BJP. Some 3% voted for NoTA. These are all educated middle class people. They hate BJP and Congress. And some half of them they will become AAP's unpaid volunteers. And each of them will get 1-100 voters, say 5 on average !! And mostly, they will be pulling BJP voters to AAP.

Dude - for spouting bullshit and conspiracy theories, you have few equals. The NOTA did not come from the Chhattisgarh educated class. If it did, we would have been seeing them in the central plains and the industrialised areas, which have a large number of educated class voters. They came almost completely from the Maopest infested regions (Bijapur, Antagarh, Dantewada, etc). This was because the Maopests were successful in stopping the BJP voters to an extent, getting them to vote NOTA, and where the NOTA was large, it contributed to the BJP defeat.

Since you seem to love conspiracy theories, let me propose a counter conspiracy theory. Some of those on this board, who are also professional politicians, are actually frontmen for MNCs and missionaries and cell network companies, and their sole aim is to damage the BJP as much as possible. They pretend to be for Hindus, but are actually in the pay of the MNCs and missionaries and cell phone network companies. To gather credibility, they simply attack MNCs and missionaries idiotically. It is the oldest trick in the book they are adopting, i.e., take the maximalist position that does not have much traction in actual politics, demand that the BJP do the same to show its commitment to the Hindu cause, and thus destroy the strategic flexibility and make it an unpalatable option to the electorate. This is the poison pill option they are choosing for the BJP. Their sole goal is the destruction of the only party that even remotely cares about Hindu interests, and smooth the way for the MNCs and the missionaries. But for outward purposes, they pretend to be anti-missionary and anti-MNC and froth at the mouth at the mere mention of the two.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 08:52

nachiket wrote:Typical YumBeeYay speak conveying minimum information in the maximum amount of strategic sounding words.

naah man, any proper bcom guy alone would have got roasted for such convoluted prose. bullet points dont stand for this stuff. instead, this is grade A journo trying to be fancy, speak. that prufrock press release or similar reports on arty sharty events have all such high sounding prose.

as for those who have eaten at IHC, ah you lucky billis you.
hope the food was good at least.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Dec 2013 09:14

re : LBSNAA

have any of you guys been to the more recently built research institutes ? IISERS and I guess even the newer IITs ? or even IUCAA in pune ?
they are as swanky as any and do have a/c rooms and so on.

the older IITs/med colleges didn't have those because GOI those days didn't have money. now the institutes do have the money but the admins are loathe to spend for 'luxuries' for students.

also, why compare LBSNAA with professional courses ? compare them with the corporates or even army's establishments. because babu services compete with the corporates for the same group of HR. most of the people who end up there are professionally accomplished, quite a few are docs and from IIT's.

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 12 Dec 2013 09:35

Arjun wrote:BJP, and specifically Modi, was certainly far better placed than the Dynasty from an anti-corruption standpoint. As long as the game was confined to Congress as an opponent, the BJP was sure-shot winner. Now that we have an opponent with stronger anti-corruption credentials that has entered the fray, the BJP will have to raise the level of its own game accordingly. It has to come out with an anti-corruption vision that challenges the AAP's, and show determination in implementation through drafts...

Once the BJP does decide to take the challenge head-on, the high-ground that AAP currently occupies will vanish.

While that is true, it will only show that BJP is a follower and not a leader. The high ground will be taken by PAAP and they will claim that they are cleaning up Indian policitics just like their claim that they influenced Dr Harshvardhan's anointment as Bhajapa CM candidate. BJP should attack where it hurts - like Kejriwal's stand on Kashmir, Batla House, Mulla appeasement, minority appeeasement, Pakistan, terrorism, fake promises etc etc. Kejriwal had the advantage of being a new comer. BJP and Modi did not target him because they did not want to give him legitimacy. Now he is fair game and will be taken to the cleaners. A thousand holes can be poked in his balloon. Maharashtra and Mumbai politics is different than Delhi politics. Marathi manoos phenomenon is very much alive in Mumbai, no such thing in Delhi. BJP/SS/MNS/RPI have dedicated following. Congi voters are up for grabs and Fordwala will be fighting from a position of disadvantage.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Dec 2013 09:37

gakakkad wrote:
talking of swanky the national admin academy at mussoorie,where they train IAS/IRS baboos is pretty swanky too. once u get into babudom ,lifetime of comfort on public money awaits you,right from training.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Lal+Bah ... 2&dpr=1.25

i mean look at there hostels ,gyms etc...5 star hotel quality..

Looks can be deceptive. There is nothing swanky about LBSNAA. Just ordinary govt training facility with slightly better infrastructure then the college hostels. IIMs are far superior. Of course new training facilities coming up in corporate/govt sectors are better then before.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 12 Dec 2013 09:43

Rahul M wrote:
dear god, this silly urban legend just doesn't die.

RahulM, indeed. They probably sprout like the anti-ABV or ABV as SG-rakshak that is being cultivated by some in this forum. I brought the point up on off-topic thread wrt ABV and nothing substantial came up and yet I see a similar comment in this thread again. So what can one do - Tagore, Gandhi and everyone of India's past thinkers and leaders are "sell-outs onlee" as per the learned 'right-wingers'.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Dec 2013 09:46

nageshks wrote:Modi's view and what it means to the Delhi elites

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/12/11/w ... 67614.html

M R Venkatesh is a rather incisive writer.

I would like to bring this aritcle out for more open view.. posting in full, and I hope y'all don't mind:

The home page of the India International Centre (IIC) website declares: “Considered one of the country’s premier cultural institutions, the India International Centre is a non-Government institution widely regarded as a place where statesmen, diplomats, policy-makers, intellectuals, scientists, jurists, writers, artists and members of civil society meet to initiate the exchange of new ideas and knowledge in the spirit of international cooperation.”

Founded way back in 1959, one is unsure of the contribution of IIC in promoting culture to this day. What is the “new idea and knowledge” that IIC has discussed or promoted since its inception in 1959? Of course the mother of all questions remains — which culture? Well, your guess is as good as mine. Nevertheless, sanctimoniously IIC claims that it is India’s “premier” cultural institution.

And on top of this diffused identity, IIC claims to model itself in the “spirit of international cooperation.” Given the state of international affairs, I for one, am stumped to define, describe or recognise this “spirit,” much less fashion an organisation based on such nebulous idea.

Is it loose usage of English language or is it a classic case of using phrases deliberately chosen with utmost care to bamboozle the reader or is this a perfect case of self exaggeration? Again, your guess is as good as mine.

Whatever be it, the fact remains that it is a gossip corner at best and booze joint at worst. Located in the centre of Delhi for the privileged class – the elites of Delhi — membership to IIC defines your place in the pecking order of influence.

Interestingly, a leader of the BJP, after worming his way in 2002-2003 into the office of the Prime Minister yearned for the exclusive and elusive membership of IIC. Much as he tried, he could not succeed. And according to popular Delhi folklore, it required the intervention and introduction and one Manmohan Singh to help him become its member.

Put pithily, if you do not belong to this group, (and even if you are part of the coveted PMO) one is not recognised as a statesman, diplomat, policy-maker, intellectual, writer or whatever!

IIC, in more ways than one, provides a context to the discussion on hand. Let us not forget that Delhi is dotted with several institutions that are modelled on IIC. These in turn are controlled by elites of Delhi who in turn manipulate every thought, idea and design about India. And members of this cabal, cutting across party lines, enjoy an incestuous relationship, serving each other’s interests.

No wonder, despite the apparent cacophony visible in India’s democracy, India is a stable democracy.

Unassailable group

Given this paradigm, the BJP’s Prime Ministerial Candidate Narendra Modi fingered this cabal where it hurts them most. He is reported to have stated in Delhi, “I am not from the elite class and, therefore, Delhi’s elite class does not accept Modi who is from a poor family. Yet, I have been able to do what these third-generation elites could not.” (Source: Indian Express, Nov 24, 2013).

Naturally, questions arise – Is this all mere positioning by Modi? Or is this a usual attempt of an Indian politician to endear himself to the in the run-up to elections? Or is there a larger subtext to this posturing by Modi?

The answer to these questions requires a greater understanding of why these institutions were created and how they operated. IIC and other such institutions that dot Delhi are mostly colonial. In the alternative they are modelled on colonial ideas. Importantly, this cabal continues to fashion the “idea of India” from such alien structures occupied and controlled by the British.

Depending on for who they lobby, these privileged lot who have come to occupy such alienated institutions post-independence have attempted to convince us of nationalisation at one point in time and privatisation at another, of the need for capital punishments in one case and the need for abolishing it altogether in another, of supporting emergency or its withdrawal, of the efficacy of Keynesian economics or its redundancy, of the benefits of joining WTO and also putting forth the argument of profiting by quitting it!

It is these section – call them progressive, liberals or Leftists – who will certify whether one is secular or communal; morally right or wrong, ethically correct or not. In short, it is they who shape, de-shape and re-shape the collective conscience of our establishment.

In the process, one should never question their inconsistency, working or their own moral standards. Remember, should you fail to toe their ever-shifting line; it is their absolute prerogative to hurt you!

Worse, a change in Government does not matter for such people. How could it, when most in every political party, secretly or otherwise, aspire to be a part of this cabal? As explained above, entry into this cabal is strictly restricted and requires sanction of one within. And such approvals do not come easily unless loyalty to this club is demonstrably demonstrated.

That is not all. The grand idea of this influential section has been to keep India poor and Indians perennially deprived. This in turn drives ordinary Indians to these very people for distributing meagre resources, rationing during shortages, and arbitrating disputes.

In short, a centrally-controlled India is a growth-deprived India. And a growth-deprived India disproportionately makes the elites, especially of Delhi, relevant.

Modi’s 3D vision – develop, decentralise and decontrol

Naturally, when Modi talks of development, this cabal is aghast. After all, they have successfully subjugated vast sections of our population by simply subjecting them to perennial poverty. Modi’s idea of development for the entire country dynamites this assiduously built model of poverty and depravity.

A prosperous India could also mean re-establishment of global order – one that could render many within the group jobless. Remember that most of them are in the payroll of foreign forces. In the alternative, they genuinely believe that emergence of India in the geo-political order is inimical to India’s interest!

Likewise, if one disaggregates Modi’s speeches over the past few months on the idea of governance, decentralisation is a recurrent theme. Decentralisation in turn shifts power from Delhi to the State capitals and from State capitals to Panchayats. Despite the Constitution being three-tiered, the fact of the matter is that Part IX A of the Constitution, which deals with Panchayat Raj, is at best an ornamental piece of legislation.

For instance, under our Constitution, the Supreme Court need not function only out of Delhi. But even after 60 years of our Independence, we have a Delhi-centric Supreme Court. And to this date, there is no talk of setting benches of Supreme Court in different parts of India. This has made justice physically inaccessible for our countrymen hailing from remote corners.

But who are the beneficiaries of this centralised system? Obviously, the senior counsels of Supreme Court. From Constitutional Law to environmental law, from criminal to company law, they — a dozen or two of our senior counsels – again the elites of Delhi — are gateways to law and justice for a billion plus people! Naturally, decentralisation defangs this group, makes them powerless and reduces their importance.

The third dimension of Modi’s vision of de-control was provided when he addressed a gathering in Chennai not so long ago. Pointing out the need to reach out to the Indian diaspora worldwide, Modi advocated the need to make good use of them, involve them and also stand by them in building relationship with foreign countries.

Further, Modi indicated the need for a greater role for States in devising India’s foreign policy by outlining a unique model. He suggested that every State should be made responsible for diplomatic relations with one country and that, he said, would ensure better relations. “That way we will have at least 34 friends in the world and no one will be able to browbeat us,” he envisioned.

Naturally, the 3D vision – Develop, Decentralise and Decontrol, has left our Delhi elites flummoxed. That, substantially if not wholly, explains their antipathy to Modi’s spectacular rise.

This, let me hasten to add, is not an issue merely between Modi and his political adversaries. Rather, it is involves the influential class within his own party. To that extent, political experts fear that his ascendency will increasingly be questioned by this cabal in the days to come.

And that explicates his views on the subject quoted above. Modi knows that he derives his power from the people of India. Equally, he is aware that he needs to tackle this system at the outset that favours the elites to effectuate a systemic change. And if he fails, he is equally aware his ascendency can at best be a regime change – one where Tweedleedee replaces Tweedleedum.

Surely, Modi is not an incremental in his approach in the Vajpayee mould. He is a technology disruptor that makes all others obsolete. That implies that his ascendency guarantees a systemic change – much to the chagrin of the elites in Delhi – one where such privileged class of India are marginalised and ordinary Indian placed at the centre of policy-making.

(The author is a Chennai-based Chartered Accountant. He can be contacted at [email protected])

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2013 09:57

Pratyush wrote:As some one who is under 1 km from IHC I will not dispute that assertion.

the powerful speak in understated tone but get the message across

there speaketh a jor bagh / lodhi road patrician

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 12 Dec 2013 10:05

IIC is entirely another ball-game AFAIK. The exclusivity is like the Colonial Bombay Yacht Club's Pool for Well-Endowed Blue Lodge Freemason's with Tourette Syndrome.

Pliss to clicky" members from left, right and centre. Including... gasp.... D4s!

BhairavP · Post by **BhairavP** » 12 Dec 2013 10:21

^Bombay Yacht Club? Bah, everyone here knows that the REAL exclusive clubs are the CCI, Bombay Gym and Willingdon...onlee

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Dec 2013 10:21

Singha wrote:
Pratyush wrote:As some one who is under 1 km from IHC I will not dispute that assertion.
the powerful speak in understated tone but get the message across
there speaketh a jor bagh / lodhi road patrician

Singha IHC/IIC lie on a line dividing the Lodhi road on one side to the people delhi on the other.

1 km on which side makes all the difference.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Dec 2013 10:33

chaanakya wrote:
gakakkad wrote:
talking of swanky the national admin academy at mussoorie,where they train IAS/IRS baboos is pretty swanky too. once u get into babudom ,lifetime of comfort on public money awaits you,right from training.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Lal+Bah ... 2&dpr=1.25

i mean look at there hostels ,gyms etc...5 star hotel quality..

Looks can be deceptive. There is nothing swanky about LBSNAA. Just ordinary govt training facility with slightly better infrastructure then the college hostels. IIMs are far superior. Of course new training facilities coming up in corporate/govt sectors are better then before.

and 2 trainess share a room.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 12 Dec 2013 10:35

VikramS wrote:Gold will become the currency for black market transactions. Much heavier to carry than notes, but still more compact. But this is about high rollers, not the aam-admi.

But this is the right step to end counterfeiting, and foreign disruption in Indian economy.

The problem is not of gold as such rather that of black money. The black money which gets cleared as cash stash currently means it has advantages (sporting government guaranteed value+not government controlled+strictly private between transactors+countable on machines with minimal human interface). Leave alone taxing it, you do not even have information of this. With gold being used both the transactors will have to bring in new actors (valuers, testors, guarantors, transporters, buyers, sellers, market makers). This will create new opportunities of generating intel and entrapment.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 Dec 2013 10:43

Karan M wrote:>>The present Life Trustees are: Professor M.G.K. Menon, Dr. Kapila Vatsyayan, Shri Soli J. Sorabjee, Shri N.N. Vohra and Justice B.N. Srikrishna. Each Trustee is an eminent authority in his/her field, bringing years of experience to the governing of the Centre. Every two years, two Trustees are elected in addition to the Life Trustees, to the Board.

Check this out, this is probably the birthplace of committees to beat committees. Check out the folks
http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/71
Pretty swank, (cue vina unhappy at dilli billis)
http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/219
http://www.iicdelhi.nic.in/?q=node/55
Naaice...paid for by junta tax onlee? MNREGA for poor, IIC for disbursers.

None of those links work for me. I get the message

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access / on this server.

How apt.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Dec 2013 10:45

Karan M wrote:wow man, now i know why folks were saying babu -land is not bad place to be in when chota bachha...these places make 5 star private stuff look stale. and they are in resort areas. awesome.

LBSNAA in Mussoorie? Looks right out of some resort or movie shoot. of course flower pots have to be there since GOI loves flower pots everyplace.

IHC -wow,
The INDIA HABITAT CENTRE was conceived to provide a physical environment which would serve as a catalyst for a synergetic relationship between individuals and institutions working in diverse habitat related areas and therefore, maximise their total effectiveness. To facilitate this interaction, the Centre provides a range of facilities.
whats that mean in plain english??!?

room
http://www.indiahabitat.org/memb.htm
eating drinking
http://www.indiahabitat.org/memb2.htm
running shunning
http://www.indiahabitat.org/memb3.htm

man, some dilli billis are privileged creatures.

must be that every other GOI leftist must be having access to all such swank stuff.
and no wonder they dislike NaMo. hes a sign good times may come to an end.

Do not forget Delhi Golf Club and Delhi Gymkhana club. Elites are having the time of their lives.

Just money is not enough to crash through these clubs. You need connections and pedigree too.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 12 Dec 2013 11:09

bhajpa will need both Delhi state and central gubmint in its hands before it can overturn some of these cosy elitemen clubs.... cancel 'em leases, take back the land and property, stop taxpayer funding pronto, open up accounts to public scrutiny etc.

ITIH, best thing is to simply open up membership to all and sundry. Club apne aap khatam ho jayega...

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Dec 2013 11:12

Every wall created by the british and their brown chamchas needs to be torn down. Any institution, etc that has received/receives direct or indirect funding (including land) should be open to all. And this should apply to institutions created before independence too.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 Dec 2013 11:15

This pedigree that they talk about, is , as someone rightly said, comprises of a bunch of sexually transmitted politicians.