Bharat Rakshak

Pathik wrote:Does Pak recognize Israel as a nation?

Who cares ?
Besides Pakistan is not a normal nation.
Survives on hate only
Sustained by US, China, and UK.
KSA is even cutting commitment.

NM is travelling to Haifa tomorrow to the resting places of 44 Indian soliders who fought during WW 1.

One thing missing (compared to other Modi visits): the word "nuclear". I'm advocating nuclear deal with Israel (we can give them a CANDU reactor for its fringe benefits). Israel is one country we can do nuclear trade in unsafeguarded material

Gus wrote:wondering what happened to avram sprinzl...many years since he dropped off..

There used to be some "Tel Abibi" IIRC.

Pathik wrote:Does Pak recognize Israel as a nation?

Nop. Being more Arabic then Arabs. IIRC there was this out of box thinking tubelight moment from kammandu to visit israel. but then cooler heads (or I should say beards) prevailed and it was canceled.

I am an amateur to India-Israel relations. My question is what would this open recognition of India-Israel bring to the table that the hush-hush relations didn't bring. I mean, what are the immediate tangible benefits of this open relationship that made the mandarins in the MEA to advocate for this.

I am not saying this shouldn't have happened due to our domestic politics, all I want to know is the why question, as I am pretty sure some hard global strategic calculations would have happened in the backdrop by NM and his team.

By the way, I really love the way our prime minister is being treated like a true friend in Israel.

If left to the mandarins of the MEA none of this would have happened.
They are all closet jihadis(Arab appeasers) and secualrists.
And find their inner Hindus only after retirement.

Some never do find like Nirupama Rao.

So its political decision and Bibi gives it away in the first speech if you paid attention.

And discount the media a s they have jumped on bandwagon and don't know why, what is happening.
E.g. LiveMint article which admonishes India for slow business ties.

Arnab landed interview with Bibi.
Live right now
http://www.republicworld.com/livetv

Philip wrote:It was good of Mr.Modi to mention eminent Indian Jews like Lt.Gen.Jacob .V.Adm.Samson,etc.but he forgot his daughter,the famous danseuse Leela Samson.

I think maybe she was purposely not mentioned. Whatever she might've said later on, her actions were clearly anti-hindu during here stint as censor board chairman. She was a congress pasand anyway.

From Jerusalem post. Agree with Lion part, the other, we are yet to prove.

Arnab interviewing Bibi live now.

Bibi mentioning civilizational ties.

Nice cartoon... The Lion of Judah and the Bengal Tiger

All this friendship etc. is fine but if the push comes to shove and Arab Mullahs again gang up against Israel like 1967,
Will India openly come to the rescue to Jewish state.
Is Israel our ally now or just a friend like so many others. When the dominoes start falling in ME, Like Pakis they will declare open season on Israel to divert attention. How will Bharath react ?
Imagine India being ruled by MahaGuthbandhan with Bianca as PM in '24. What do you think our response to such a situation would be. Probably some lecturebaazi and glee for Indian Islamists.

PS: Why there is so much soft corner for Palestinians among our MEA babus and commie inspired self proclaimed Intelligentsia while not a single tear for Yezidi or Kurds. After all Yassir Arafat and his goons were terrorists and murderers.

>>Why there is so much soft corner for Palestinians among our MEA babus and commie inspired self proclaimed Intelligentsia

Mainly habit, derived from decades of kissing a scummunist red-inted Italian arse, and of course just any scummunist butt before that. Re-orientatation comes with change in regime structure and a new way of looking at things, and also with changes in the world. It won't die overnight though; it will be gradually verbally beaten out and some will be edged over the cliff as well. Takes some time to change habit. But some are proving remarkably agile on the other hand. No one can sense the direction of the blowing wind, and the extend of the bend required, better than diplomats.

Modi cutting loose in his address to the Indian Jewish diaspora in Israel... Violates Pakistan properly.

"Jewish Lt. General JFR Jacob made Pakistanis surrender to India" - paraphrasing.

/\ Najreen ab Israel ne bhi pakis ki Le Li

srin wrote:One thing missing (compared to other Modi visits): the word "nuclear". I'm advocating nuclear deal with Israel (we can give them a CANDU reactor for its fringe benefits). Israel is one country we can do nuclear trade in unsafeguarded material

Are you kidding??

They are only a few screwdriver turns away from fully weaponizing.

Their delivery systems are already in place

JE Menon wrote:Modi cutting loose in his address to the Indian Jewish diaspora in Israel... Violates Pakistan properly.

"Jewish Lt. General JFR Jacob made Pakistanis surrender to India" - paraphrasing.

jacob was a baghdadi jew.

adding deep insult to the paki injury. This will upset the congis right royally

JE Menon wrote:>>Why there is so much soft corner for Palestinians among our MEA babus and commie inspired self proclaimed Intelligentsia

Mainly habit, derived from decades of kissing a scummunist red-inted Italian arse, and of course just any scummunist butt before that. Re-orientatation comes with change in regime structure and a new way of looking at things, and also with changes in the world. It won't die overnight though; it will be gradually verbally beaten out and some will be edged over the cliff as well. Takes some time to change habit. But some are proving remarkably agile on the other hand. No one can sense the direction of the blowing wind, and the extend of the bend required, better than diplomats.

scummunist

excellent word, saar.

This should be tweeted regularly until many there pick it up.

^^Also Congresslave

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/07/p ... 43455.html
Palestinians unhappy over Modi snub on Israel trip
Palestinian Deputy Foreign Minister says Indian PM should have visited both states 'to spread the message of peace'.
The Palestinian Authority (PA) has expressed its concern over Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision not to meet President Mahmoud Abbas during his historic three-day trip to Israel.
Modi was welcomed by his Israeli counterpart Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem on Tuesday as he became the first Indian leader to visit Israel.
In addition to Netanyahu, Modi also met Israeli President Reuven Rivlin on Wednesday.
Modi met Abbas in New Delhi in May.
"We expected him [Modi] to visit both Israel and Palestine," Palestinian Deputy Foreign Minister Tasir Jaradat told Al Jazeera.
"To play an important role between the two sides and to be able to spread the message of peace, one should visit both."
India, which has a history of advocating the Palestinian cause, opened up formal diplomatic ties with Israel in 1992.
....

Gautam

JE Menon wrote:Modi cutting loose in his address to the Indian Jewish diaspora in Israel... Violates Pakistan properly.

"Jewish Lt. General JFR Jacob made Pakistanis surrender to India" - paraphrasing.

nitpick : Maj Gen, not Lt Gen.

also, a few may be aware that Gen JFRJ was also a BRFite.

Modiji just announced a direct flight, "Tel Aviv - Mumbai - Delhi".

Tx for correcting that Rahul M.

Meanwhile, Modi carries on...

Philip the flight issue is sorted. Delhi-Mumbai-Tel Aviv. He just said so in his speech.

"Modi Modi Modi" chants as usual.

Incredible....

Speech done.

Any large purchases?

Rahulji,
Wikipedia Chacha says: Lieutenant General Jacob Farj Rafael "J. F. R." Jacob, PVSM (1924 – 13 January 2016) was a Jewish Indian Army officer. He was best known for the role he played in India's victory in the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971 and the Liberation of Bangladesh. Jacob, then a Major General, served as the Chief of Staff of the Indian Army's Eastern Command during the war. During his 36-year career in the army, he also fought in World War II and the Indo-Pakistan War of 1965. He later served as the Governor of the Indian states of Goa and Punjab...
I did not know he was a BRFite, but great men think alike! Did he post?
Gautam

chetak wrote:

srin wrote:One thing missing (compared to other Modi visits): the word "nuclear". I'm advocating nuclear deal with Israel (we can give them a CANDU reactor for its fringe benefits). Israel is one country we can do nuclear trade in unsafeguarded material

Are you kidding??

They are only a few screwdriver turns away from fully weaponizing.

Their delivery systems are already in place

Only half-kidding saar. Given the stalled NSG membership, I'm thinking of ways of causing apoplexy in the region.

Deals stated
10 Heron TP
8000 Spike missiles/320 launchers
2 Phalcon, 3 aerostats

did any of these go through

AFAIK, Heron TP deal was signed in 2015, deliveries are expected any day.

RE: atomic clock. Is this for developing similar to NASA's DSAC?

RahulM, Where did you get your info?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._F._R._Jacob

Says he retired as Lt. Gen.

Site has a nice picture of Lt Gen Jacob(R) presenting his books to PM Narendra Modi.

JE Menon wrote:Jamwal

1. This visit explicitly makes public what in the past was private.
2. The visit was designed to show the personal nature of the relationship between the two countries.
3. The defence relationship's maturity.
4. It is an acknowledgement, in public, of a civilisational affinity.

What will this relationship change exactly? The overall "nature" of the relationship. More public, more engagement, more depth and more personal.

Excellent points JEM ji, that's what I was looking for.
Thanks Ramana ji for the reply.

Another aspect here is timing, although it could just be good fortune/alignment of Navagrahas.
With the current turmoil in the Arab world, factions are being formed within them. Atleast one such faction is willing to do business with Israel and the Indian outreach cannot go down as burning bridges given the present circumstances.

by Vikas
All this friendship etc. is fine but if the push comes to shove and Arab Mullahs again gang up against Israel like 1967,
Will India openly come to the rescue to Jewish state.

Israel actually offered to bomb the Kahuta nuclear complex when it was close to going critical asking only for refueling somewhere in Gujarat. Rajiv Gandhi like his Nana (Chacha Nehru) declined it. I think Modi would agree today!!

SBajwa wrote:

by Vikas
All this friendship etc. is fine but if the push comes to shove and Arab Mullahs again gang up against Israel like 1967,
Will India openly come to the rescue to Jewish state.

Israel actually offered to bomb the Kahuta nuclear complex when it was close to going critical asking only for refueling somewhere in Gujarat. Rajiv Gandhi like his Nana (Chacha Nehru) declined it. I think Modi would agree today!!

Was it Rajiv Gandhi or Indira Gandhi? Seeing some facebook posts around the same time

ArjunPandit wrote:

SBajwa wrote:
Israel actually offered to bomb the Kahuta nuclear complex when it was close to going critical asking only for refueling somewhere in Gujarat. Rajiv Gandhi like his Nana (Chacha Nehru) declined it. I think Modi would agree today!!

Was it Rajiv Gandhi or Indira Gandhi? Seeing some facebook posts around the same time

It was Moraraji Desai. Pakistan payed it by awarding a Nishan-e-Pakistan to him.
(Actually it was much worse, He actually informed Pakistan and put many agents life in danger)

^^^ From http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/08spec.htm
[quote



Thirty-five years ago, in September 1968, when the Research and Analysis Wing was founded with Rameshwar Nath Kao at its helm, then prime minister Indira Gandhi asked him to cultivate Israel's Mossad. She believed relations between the two intelligence agencies was necessary to monitor developments that could threaten India and Israel.

The efficient spymaster he was, Kao established a clandestine relationship with Mossad. In the 1950s, New Delhi had permitted Tel Aviv to establish a consulate in Mumbai. But full-fledged diplomatic relations with Israel were discouraged because India supported the Palestinian cause; having an Israeli embassy in New Delhi, various governments believed, would rupture its relations with the Arab world.

This was where the RAW-Mossad liaison came in. Among the threats the two external intelligence agencies identified were the military relationship between Pakistan and China and North Korea, especially after then Pakistan foreign minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto visited Pyongyang in 1971 to establish a military relationship with North Korea.

Again, Israel was worried by reports that Pakistani army officers were training Libyans and Iranians to handle Chinese and North Korean military equipment.

RAW-Mossad relations were a secret till Morarji Desai became prime minister in 1977. RAW officials had alerted him about the Zia-ul Haq regime's plans to acquire nuclear capability. While French assistance to Pakistan for a plutonium reprocessing plant was well known, the uranium enrichment plant at Kahuta was a secret. After the French stopped helping Islamabad under pressure from the Carter administration, Pakistan was determined to keep the Kahuta plant a secret. Islamabad did not want Washington to prevent its commissioning.

RAW agents were shocked when Desai called Zia and told the Pakistani military dictator: 'General, I know what you are up to in Kahuta. RAW has got me all the details.' The prime minister's indiscretion threatened to expose RAW sources.

The unfortunate revelation came about the same time that General Moshe Dayan, hero of the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, was secretly visiting Kathmandu for a meeting with Indian representatives. Islamabad believed Dayan's visit was connected with a joint operation by Indian and Israeli intelligence agencies to end Pakistan's nuclear programme.

Apprehensive about an Indo-Israeli air strike on Kahuta, surface-to-air missiles were mounted around the uranium enrichment plant. These fears grew after the Israeli bombardment of Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981.

Zia decided Islamabad needed to reassure Israel that it had nothing to fear from Pakistan's nuclear plans. Intermediaries -- Americans close to Israel -- established the initial contacts between Islamabad and Tel Aviv. Israel was confidant the US would not allow Pakistan's nuclear capability to threaten Israel. That is why Israeli experts do not mention the threat from Pakistan when they refer to the need for pre-emptive strikes against Iraq, Iran and Libya's nuclear schemes.

By the early 1980s, the US had discovered Pakistan's Kahuta project. By then northwest Pakistan was the staging ground for mujahideen attacks against Soviet troops in Afghanistan and Zia no longer feared US objections to his nuclear agenda. But Pakistani concerns over Israel persisted, hence Zia decided to establish a clandestine relationship between Inter-Services Intelligence and Mossad via officers of the two services posted at their embassies in Washington, DC.

The ISI knew Mossad would be interested in information about the Libyan, Syrian, Jordanian and Saudi Arabian military. Pakistani army officers were often posted on deputation in the Arab world -- in these very countries -- and had access to valuable information, which the ISI offered Mossad.

When young Israeli tourists began visiting the Kashmir valley in the early nineties Pakistan suspected they were Israeli army officers in disguise to help Indian security forces with counter-terrorism operations. The ISI propaganda inspired a series of terrorist attacks on the unsuspecting Israeli tourists. One was slain, another kidnapped.

The Kashmiri Muslim Diaspora in the US feared the attacks would alienate the influential Jewish community who, they felt, could lobby the US government and turn it against Kashmiri organisations clamouring for independence. Soon after, presumably caving into pressure, the terrorists released the kidnapped Israeli. During negotiations for his release, Israeli government officials, including senior intelligence operatives, arrived in Delhi.

The ensuing interaction with Indian officials led to India establishing embassy-level relations with Israel in 1992. The decision was taken by a Congress prime minister -- P V Narasimha Rao -- whose government also began pressing the American Jewish lobby for support in getting the US to declare Pakistan a sponsor of terrorism. The lobbying bore some results.

The US State Department put Pakistan on a 'watch-list' for six months in 1993. The Clinton administration 'persuaded' then Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif to dismiss Lieutenant General Javed Nasir, then director general of the ISI. The Americans were livid that the ISI refused to play ball with the CIA who wanted to buy unused Stinger missiles from the Afghan mujahideen, then in power in Kabul.

After she returned to power towards the end of 1993, Benazir Bhutto intensified the ISI's liaison with Mossad. She too began to cultivate the American Jewish lobby. Benazir is said to have a secret meeting in New York with a senior Israeli emissary, who flew to the US during her visit to Washington, DC in 1995 for talks with Clinton.

From his days as Bhutto's director general of military operations, Pervez Musharraf has been a keen advocate of Pakistan establishing diplomatic relations with the state of Israel.

The new defence relationship between India and Israel -- where the Jewish State has become the second-biggest seller of weapons to India, after Russia -- bother Musharraf no end. Like another military dictator before him, the Pakistan president is also wary that the fear of terrorists gaining control over Islamabad's nuclear arsenal could lead to an Israel-led pre-emptive strike against his country.

Musharraf is the first Pakistani leader to speak publicly about diplomatic relations with Israel. His pragmatic corps commanders share his view that India's defence relationship with Israel need to be countered and are unlikely to oppose such a move. But the generals are wary of the backlash from the streets. Recognising Israel and establishing an Israeli embassy in Islamabad would be unacceptable to the increasingly powerful mullahs who see the United States, Israel and India as enemies of Pakistan and Islam.


[/quote]

No! Totally separate incident. I have read a news somewhere that after operation opera in 1981 in which Israeli planes destroyed Iraq's (Saddam Hussein) nuclear reactor. In 1985 Israel offered Indira/Rajiv Gandhi that if India could provide refueling facilities they would destroy Kahuta just like they stopped Saddam Hussein.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

check here
https://www.dawn.com/news/273367

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Modis- ... ion-498891

Major heartburn for a lot of leftee people back in India.

Sbajwa - to add - just quick google links:
Operation Kahuta
When Morarji Desai Betrayed R&AW And Got Indian Spies Killed
There are many sources: This was much earlier 1978 ( By 1981 or later - it was too late IMO, as Paks were already - openly - threatening indian nuclear power plants) - .. Moshe Dayan, the notable Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Force who was the Minister of Foreign Affairs then, suggested Desai that Israel can destroy the nuclear plant in Kahuta in an air strike. He only needed landing permission in Indian territory to refuel his fighter plane. Desai turned down his generous offer.

(I have travelled in Israel in 70's (and later) quite a few times, Indira Gandhi (though PLO's Arafat used to call her sister) did have respect in Israel and Indians - specially scientists were well respected - I had an Israeli prof I worked with and quite a few grad students we were close with)