Su-30: News and Discussion

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 07 Apr 2011 05:07

ramana wrote:So instead of taking the Brahmos and trying to shoe horn it may be the right idea is to develop some thing similar for a/c specific use? BTW KEPD350 at 1300kg carrying a payload heavier than Brahmos farther is very impressive. But then it might not be as fast as the Brahmos.

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GD, Is the Tejas cleared for 1500kg stores?

Ramana saar the KEPD is most certainly subsonic ala thawk/harpoon slam onlee while the Brahmos will be going mach 2 to 2.5.

The Brahmos's sheer kinetic impact due to its higher speed more than compensates for the 300kg warhead.

IMHO the KEPD if inducted will be employed very differently to the Brahmos as the KEPD will be a very low flying stealthy intruder going into enemy territory. If employed in conjunction with the Brahmos it will creat absolute havoc with the Brahmos's coming in supersonic and opening the stage taking out IMO sam radars, ew sites etc and the KEPDs going in for nerve centres, HQs etc...

Also the MKI should be able to carry the KEPDs in the centerline pylon and the two pylons next to the intakes on starboard and port. The wing pylons will most probably not carry a load so heavy. This is ofcrouse assuming that the MKI will employ KEPD which I dont think will happen. The KEPD will be for the upcoming MRCA, LCA? and may be the Mirage however given that the mirage already employs Crystal maze ala popeye it will be interesting to see if it does indeed replace the maze.

my 2 naya paisa....

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Apr 2011 05:55

It would be awesome to have Rambhas carry a Brahmos in the middle and two KEPDs on the sides. And 40-50 such Rambhas entering a combat theater to take care of enemy defenses.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 07 Apr 2011 06:39

Though I doubt if the missile was ever put in service

It's ( air-launched version) most certainly in service with the PLANAF.

The really awesome late cold war ALCM that wasn't pressed into service was the Marabou plasma stealth equipped 3M25 Meteorit. Of course that could only be launched from strategic bombers.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 07 Apr 2011 06:41

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Apr 2011 06:46

If LCA can go conformal. then existing fuel tank at 1200kg could be used for longer range ASM. If these missile can use CL20 propellant, then the same 1500kg mission requirement could be achieved with 1200kg capability. All we need is that retractable refueling probe.

?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 08:57

^^but KEPD350's 500kms. range and 500 kg. warhead won't be a MTCR violation?
Just a 1400 kg. missile in which warhead itself makes up for almost 1/3rd of the weight amazing..........

KEPD350 is definitely not on offer for the kala aadmi. it anyway uses a williams intl engine same family as the tomahawk engine.

the equivalent french/british storm shadow of around 250km range is however on sale - UAE has it as the "Black Shaheen" @ 10 mil a pop. it carries a 450kg warhed and has a Turbomeca Microturbo TRI 60-30 turbojet, producing 5.4 kN thrust. italy, uk,france, uae and greece have 100s between them.

the french are developing a deep strike variant of it per-wiki which again would not be on the sale table:
Missile de Croisière Naval

MBDA has developed for the French Navy a longer-range sea-launched variant, called Missile de Croisière Naval (MdCN meaning Naval Cruise Missile), to be launched from FREMM multipurpose frigates and Barracuda class submarines using the A70 version of the Sylver launcher on the former and 533 mm torpedo tubes on the latter. To provide a comparable thousand kilometers class range to the BGM-109 Tomahawk, the range of the MdCN (well over 1000 km) is significantly larger than the Storm Shadow. According to DGA, the new missile has the ability to strike targets deep into the adversary's territory from a position with security distance in international waters. Its first in-flight test from a vertical launcher took place on 28 May 2010.

there is smaller version called KEPD150 developed for the Gripen. not sure if it entered production or they went with 350 model onlee.

and Williams Intl playing a key enabler role is here:
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18161/

bottomline - if we want a immediate weapon for the MRCA and Tejas - then Storm Shadow is only option free of american engine and MTCR req.

but the best long term soln is take the indo-rus turbofan engine being developed for Nirbhay GLCM/SLCM and fit it into a smaller BOXY airframe to get maybe a 600-700km stealthy subsonic deep strike jassm/kepd350 style weapon cued by imagery and IIR. have a huge unitary warhead for most targets (radars, HQ, bridges, railway yards, ports) and a submunition dispenser for area targets like enemy camps and logisitic dumps .

there are lots of pics of kepd/stormshadow/jassm to copy the boxy fuselage and stealth aspects from.

this has got to be one of our KEY projects for next 10 years so that we have numbers in squadron service with IAF and IN ships by 2020.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 09:02

its the fuel sipping turbofan engines which make the huge warhead fraction (30% by weight) and superb range of these next-gen weapons possible in a compact form factor. solid fuel, liquid fuel rocket, ramjet , turbojet ... nothing else comes close to the sweet spot of small size, huge warhead, long range. - that permit even fighters like Gripen to punch way above their weight and crush targets from 500km away. a MKI could cart 6 of these puppies.

we need that micro-turbofan working and in production AT ANY COST.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Apr 2011 09:41

GD I heard of the Williams turbofan in IITM days!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 09:43

its a family of engines ... their work was highly classified in cold war era and got the first breakthroughs like tomahawk SLCM and boeing ALCM (larger than thawk)....later these were exported to munna all-lies like germany for KEPD...even later I think they now sell some models for small passenger jets.
so they must have had working engines in mid to late 70s for sure.

we are 40+ yrs behind massa in this area.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 07 Apr 2011 12:20

Nirbhay is going to use a Russki engine to start with. Should have good performance though probably not cutting edge state of the art performance like the western ones.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 12:58

the Meteorit seemed to be a winged ramjet of some sort..giant size..the Tu160 could probably only one internally.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1183494312

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 13:01

maybe its cheaper to just cook off a couple Shourya's from trucks than build these huge missiles and air platforms to launch them - unless we want to attack sher khan or manchuria ?

cheap, small, pervasive, stealthy, medium range (500-700km) is probably the sweet spot we want to occupy - kit up every IAF fighter for such a missile rather than just 40 specially modified MKI firing brahmos. that will make it impossible to track which a/c are going to do SEAD missions or high value strikes deep into the rear.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 07 Apr 2011 13:08

I think similar to the Mirages action in Kargil, even if we want to strike beyond the himalayas, launching aircraft from MP with air launched missiles might give the IAF better cover than basing trucks capsules closer to the border? Is it actually better this way?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 13:13

with smaller warhead the Shourya is said to have a range of 1800km. but nobody knows its real CEP and might be costlier than the $10mil it costs for a storm shadow.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 07 Apr 2011 13:30

Meteorit test launches were done from Tu-95s. range is an incredible 4000 km +.

Missile was unveiled publicly at MAKS for the first time a few years ago. there's a brilliant 'smotr' video on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE9q0v71 ... r_embedded

There was a ground launched variant as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 15:40

the meteorit has a high IR sig though, with flames trailing out and all...and @ 12 m long, its totally impractical for anyone but Tu160/B1/B52 owners...that too with mods.

a PIO based in a hawaii defence contractor is cooling his heels in jail now for selling secrets of american cruise missile exhaust IR sig reduction techniques to China. he made repeated trips there.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 07 Apr 2011 17:17

yeah its big. but one of our albatrosses could lug it. its range actually gives you that leeway. you don't need a particularly survivable platform for this missile.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Apr 2011 02:04

Prasad wrote:I think similar to the Mirages action in Kargil, even if we want to strike beyond the himalayas, launching aircraft from MP with air launched missiles might give the IAF better cover than basing trucks capsules closer to the border? Is it actually better this way?

IIRC it was ACM Kitcha who first said that we have capability to strike 150 KM from within our borders, and hence use of AF should not be seen as an escalatory step.

I guess only Mirage fired popeye missiles can achieve that range.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Apr 2011 06:04

Aditya G wrote:
Prasad wrote:I think similar to the Mirages action in Kargil, even if we want to strike beyond the himalayas, launching aircraft from MP with air launched missiles might give the IAF better cover than basing trucks capsules closer to the border? Is it actually better this way?
IIRC it was ACM Kitcha who first said that we have capability to strike 150 KM from within our borders, and hence use of AF should not be seen as an escalatory step.

I guess only Mirage fired popeye missiles can achieve that range.

Prithvi?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 09 Apr 2011 08:07

guess only Mirage fired popeye missiles can achieve that range.

It is more likely a reference to a Kh-59M variant. the anti-shipping variant Kh-59MK for instance has a range just below 300 kms.

Neither Popeye 1 nor crystal maze are ever reported with a 150 km range.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Apr 2011 20:05

Some awesome WIP ( work in progress) 3D renders of Su-30 by Der Peiper. I don't know whether renders are encouraged in this thread but I could not resist myself from posting these. This is the most stunning and awesome aircraft modelling work that I have "ever" seen.
http://siregar3d.files.wordpress.com/20 ... _start.jpg
http://siregar3d.files.wordpress.com/20 ... g1_new.jpg
http://siregar3d.files.wordpress.com/20 ... g2_new.jpg
http://siregar3d.files.wordpress.com/20 ... ixsu30.jpg
http://siregar3d.files.wordpress.com/20 ... engine.jpg
http://siregar3d.files.wordpress.com/20 ... t_gear.jpg
Man, I really cannot wait till the artist finishes the whole thing.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 01 May 2011 05:37

Rambha SB131 positive climb > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1910884/L/

PS: does anyone know how to locate its ^ c/n ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 May 2011 14:49

X-post from MRCA thread.

Aditya G wrote:
Gaur wrote: Just a small nitpick. MKI has TVC enabled all the time.
.....
No, it has to be activated by a switch.

Adityaji, you are quite wrong on this one. There are 2 modes of TVC in MKI. In its default state, the TVC nozzle's deflection is limited to a lower angle. This mode is enabled from the moment the aircraft takes off to the point when it lands. This mode is taken into account by the FCS during every move. TVC is not only used for exotic post stall maneuvers, but also for overall improvement of pilot's control on the a/c (eg: for preventing skids,). Also, reducing take off distance is another obvious but highly important role.

The 'switch" that you are talking about is called "Maneuver Mode". That is present on the throttle stick. In that mode, the limits on AOA and nozzle deflection are removed. This mode is sparingly used.

In fact, if the pilot manually manually switches off the TVC (the toggle switch is placed on the left hand side of the pilot seat), a warning appears in the cockpit display showing a message along the lines of "Thrust Vectoring Failure" (not the exact words). This is a highly undesirable state and so TVC is not disabled intentionally in "any" scenario.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 May 2011 20:55

the CM of Arunachal is missing since yesterday morning and presumed dead by now probably. his Bell helicopter took off from tawang and then vanished. false reports of it landing eastern bhutan and a IA post on SeLa Pass spotting it crossing over the pass were later denied.
satellites have failed to pick up signals and imagery analysis from multiple passes yesterday and today provided no clues so far.
2 x SU30s have also panned the area without success (not sure with SAR or Litening pod).

this could be a long running mystery like the wreckage of two Mig21s that were found in arunachal months after they were lost.

many moons ago, it was posted on BRF a plan to equip every IAF pilot with a SABRE personal locator beacon.
did it come through, or die a quiet death somewhere in the file pile at MOD ?

a product like this is probably std kit for usaf/usn pilots in their survival pack.
http://www.se-corporation.com/products.html

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 May 2011 21:13

a lot of aircraft disappearing near China!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 May 2011 21:48

Vivek K wrote:a lot of aircraft disappearing near China!

Singha wrote: many moons ago, it was posted on BRF a plan to equip every IAF pilot with a SABRE personal locator beacon.
did it come through, or die a quiet death somewhere in the file pile at MOD ?

My replies in newbie thread.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1080385

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 02 May 2011 00:15

Singha wrote:the CM of Arunachal is missing since yesterday morning and presumed dead by now probably. his Bell helicopter took off from tawang and then vanished. false reports of it landing eastern bhutan and a IA post on SeLa Pass spotting it crossing over the pass were later denied.
satellites have failed to pick up signals and imagery analysis from multiple passes yesterday and today provided no clues so far.
2 x SU30s have also panned the area without success (not sure with SAR or Litening pod).

this could be a long running mystery like the wreckage of two Mig21s that were found in arunachal months after they were lost.

many moons ago, it was posted on BRF a plan to equip every IAF pilot with a SABRE personal locator beacon.
did it come through, or die a quiet death somewhere in the file pile at MOD ?

a product like this is probably std kit for usaf/usn pilots in their survival pack.
http://www.se-corporation.com/products.html

I personally prefer the Breitling Emergency Watch..http://forums.watchuseek.com/f39/emerge ... h-170.html

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 08:45

^^ Arent the Su-30s at Chabua, Assam activated already? Why are Su-30s being flown from Bareilly to search for Arunachal CM?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2011 08:52

sum wrote:^^ Arent the Su-30s at Chabua, Assam activated already? Why are Su-30s being flown from Bareilly to search for Arunachal CM?

Weather in Chabua? (Controlled by the Chinese of course)

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 09:01

^^ But, would assume that they would have to overfly Assam to reach Arunachal even if from bareilly.

Maybe, they are overflying Bhutan to reach the spot!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 May 2011 09:06

there would be no issue obtaining permission from bhutan govt for indian planes and helis to search on their side. GoB has already sent some 20 teams of people into the border tracts for the search.

the heli does have a emergency locator beacon per pawan hans but it could have got damaged in some heavy crash or maybe just malfunctioning...or maybe it needs someone alive to turn it on (like the f18 pilot did in "behind enemy lines"...some kinda box behind his ejection seat)

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 May 2011 09:26

IAF deploys SU-30 MKI's to search missing Arunachal CM

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 May 2011 22:01

chackojoseph wrote:IAF deploys SU-30 MKI's to search missing Arunachal CM

...The SU-30 MKI’s are based in IAF’s base in Bareilly, said a local TV Channel. The IAF has completed two sorties of the area, and has begun a third sortie added the channel on May 1. ...

It seems bit implausible for the Su-30MKIs to be flying from Bareilly base when there is already a MKI squadron stationed in Tezpur since last year and a new one being raised in Chabua this year.

Tezpur, Chabua to house two Sukhoi squadrons each

PTI | 07:04 PM,Apr 21,2011

Shillong, Apr 21 (PTI) Tezpur and Chabua air bases in Assam will house two squadrons of Sukhoi30 warplanes each, a senior Indian Air Force officer said today. "Both the bases will have two squadrons of the Sukhois.They already have one squadron each. The next squadrons would be coming within a few years� time," Eastern Air Command Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Air Marshal KK Nohwar said. The first complement of the MKI variant of Su30 fighter jets arrived at Tezpur last June and the squadron is operational. The second squadron in the Northeast was deployed at Chabua in Upper Assam last month. IAF sources said the necessary infrastructure in these air bases were being upgraded to house the warplanes which will subsequently replace the age old MIGs. Already the �vintage� MIG 23 and MIG 25 planes have been phased out. �Once adequate number of Sukhois and other modern aircrafts come in, the MIG21s would also be eventually phased out,� the sources said. The IAF has been expressing concern over the maintainability of the older generation aircrafts like MIG 21s in the force which are operating since early sixties. There have been a number of incidents of MIG 21 crashes in the last couple of years. Another Su30 squadron is likely to be deployed at the Bagdogra air base in the region, the sources said. Having aerial refueling capability, the Su30 MKI multi-role combat jets have a combat radius of 1,500 kilometers. The MKI variant of the warplane which was inducted into the Indian Air Force in 2002 are said to have an impeccable safety record.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 May 2011 22:19

Arunachal CM missing: IAF have found two suspected spots for missing chopper, says P V Naik

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force today said its Su-30 MKIs have found two suspected spots for the chopper carrying Arunachal Pradesh Chief Minister Dorjee Khandu and four others missing since Saturday.

"They (Su-30 MKI) did one trip over the Sela pass. We have found through the Synthetic Aperture Radar (on the Su-30MKIs) that there were two hot spots of metal but it is not very conclusive," IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said here.

Naik was talking to reporters on the sidelines of the annual P C Lall memorial lecture here.

Backed up by satellite pictures and infrared images taken by Su-30s, the search for the chopper has narrowed down to a 66 sq km forested area.

I think this facility is not available with the Squadrons in Tezpur or Chabua

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 May 2011 22:22

srai wrote:It seems bit implausible for the Su-30MKIs to be flying from Bareilly base when there is already a MKI squadron stationed in Tezpur since last year and a new one being raised in Chabua this year.

I have no dispute to your logic. However, this is what the channel said.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 May 2011 05:58

Seems like a repeat of what has happend in YSR case. He was killed in that crash. Hope that it is not the same now.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 May 2011 06:51

chackojoseph wrote:
srai wrote:It seems bit implausible for the Su-30MKIs to be flying from Bareilly base when there is already a MKI squadron stationed in Tezpur since last year and a new one being raised in Chabua this year.
I have no dispute to your logic. However, this is what the channel said.

The Barrielly squadron is a dedicated R&S unit, wih the planes equipped with SAR sensors, mostly Israeli...this unit replaced the Mig25 squadron based there for the same purpose..

The other Su30 sqdns would not be equipped in the same configuration..

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 03 May 2011 20:37

@ somnath its true but wasnt there a pic of an mki, when it first landed in tezpur with a red pod underneath it, which was later confirmed to be a photo recce pod....

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 03 May 2011 20:51

The Barrielly squadron is a dedicated R&S unit, wih the planes equipped with SAR sensors, mostly Israeli...this unit replaced the Mig25 squadron based there for the same purpose..

The other Su30 sqdns would not be equipped in the same configuration..

Not really true. What Bareilly airbase really has is a specialized lab for developing and analysing photos....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 May 2011 20:54

somnath wrote: The Barrielly squadron is a dedicated R&S unit, wih the planes equipped with SAR sensors, mostly Israeli...this unit replaced the Mig25 squadron based there for the same purpose..

The other Su30 sqdns would not be equipped in the same configuration..

chiru wrote:@ somnath its true but wasnt there a pic of an mki, when it first landed in tezpur with a red pod underneath it, which was later confirmed to be a photo recce pod....

AFAIK, MKI doesn't need an external pod for SAR.
SAR mode is integrated within NIIP NO11M BARS. So, I find all this talk of Tezpur based MKIs not having SAR as very odd. Or am I missing something here?