Internal Security Watch

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jan 2011 20:09

somnath ji,
I have no wish to engage on the RSS debate. A lot of what you say is also anecdotal. Each of which is also more complex than you represent them as. For example presence in educational institutions - sure. Most higher eductaional institutions were dominated by Leftist ideologies. I was in the thick of it and I know first hand. In one Institute of national importance, in a particular year in early 2000's - almost 75% of all undergrads and 95% of postgrads professed one form of Marxism or another and affiliated to one or more orgs - some of them Maoist. By your argument that must be a reflection of society then? That the backgrounds they come from - primarily the middle classes - are committed to communism roughly on the order of 80%?

Oh yes, and how many of them have followed up on that early promise? Out of 17 postgrads I have in mind, only one has joined a "mainstream Maoist party", the rest have divided up into "no committment" and "right", and there are quite a few RSS supporters among the latter. The contextual basis of their support is another huge issue and OT.

As for MJ Akbar, he seems to fit the pattern of voices that demand on the one hand the "middle class" think "opportunistically" while insisting - sometimes cleverly and surreptiotiously - that sepcific religious/community agendas be advanced at the same time. Didn't he write a curious article about the glorious prospects for Muslims in a "Harit Pradesh"? Shouldn't he also ne urging the Muslims to come out of history and "move on" and not insist on cultural distinctions and claims over and above pure profit?

There is an insistence on "moving forward" and not living in the past. It seems that such demands are raised whenever the question of actual security implications come up. Perhaps those who raise such demands know that their targets may actually look at history and find out patterns of behaviour of specific groupings and ideologies, their long term behaviour and strategies and use that knowledge to understand future trends to best meet such threats.

As long as the basic imperialistic and eventual "conquest" urges in certain ideologies remain, the history - especially on issues of security for their traditional targets - will repeat itself. All urges to "move on" should immediatley raise suspicions. That they possibly are simply a cover for not even the slightest departure from age-old agenda.

Singling out the RSS for bashing will not serve your purpose. It may actually appear to become more attractive - especially when seen in the context of the role of the current Indian rashtra in its differential treatment of ideologies.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jan 2011 20:17

brihaspati wrote:By your argument that must be a reflection of society then? That the backgrounds they come from - primarily the middle classes - are committed to communism roughly on the order of 80%?

Not at all..As someone (what the heck, it was Prof Bibek Debroy - he wouldnt mind/remember I hope

) told me many years back - anyone who's not a marxist before 25 doesnt have a heart, anyone whos still a marxist after 25 doesnt have a head!

At least Marxian theorists left enough imprint to influence (at some level, thankfully not fully!) succeeding generations of elite students..(Ditto in the US for the conservative strain of thought)...All that RSS has is Dattopant Thengadi!

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Jan 2011 20:20

^ Boss one more thing the Marxism practiced in India (Laal Salaam or it's even extreme form (Didi & Co) variety ) is not what comes to one's mind when one refers to 'Marxism'.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jan 2011 20:32

somnath ji
Again, OT. But what were people younger than 25 doing before Marx were born? What really is the Marxist imprint to influence that have actually left some mark on "elite students"? Is that mark or imprint conducive for the health and wealth of India? Which Marxist economist or theoretician has contributed positively to Indian economy or security? There are actually lots of people still out there in the west who look fondly upon Hitler. Would you apply the same consideration for them - that thankfully Hitler has also left some generation-spanning continuing influence?

In any case, what the Marxist "influence" you allude to is a reconstruction and corruption of both what Marx actually wrote, acted on [which was not always on line sof what he preached], and what others claimed that he meant. The influence on students froma certain background in India - is more a solid part of the tradition by which some in our grandfathers' generation went moist-eyed and gaga over piece from Shakespeare. It is the ultimate and abject surrender of the self and self-deception by which virtue is made out of necessity of a humilatring defeat. When you are forced to lick colonial masters boots to thrive [social conflict is not conducive to prosperity - and the British colonial rashtra drove home that lesson] and you are forced to learn and admire officially the ideology or intellectual pretensions of your masters - you will make it a glory. It does not remidn you of your slavery then.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2011 20:34

Somanath,

It is all about perceptions.

Majority Muslims in India and outside think India is a Hindu nation, rightly or wrongly. Almost all Islamic nations in the world one way or other opposed Indian stance on J&K. This creates its own dynamics.

RSS is an organization with its own agenda and world-view. We may or may not agree with it. If one does not agree with its world-view one can stay away from it. Neither RSS claims to have the mandate of all Hindus in the world nor the Hindu-society looks at RSS for its protection. I truly don't understand your pain with RSS; perhaps you want it to take your causes and fight it for you so you can get to eat the cake and keep it too.

Coming to state mandate, it can change with the change in administration and leadership. For the nationalists this is the only option and way. RSS recognizes this and works thru it. One cannot say the same with other groups, thus qualified to be called loonies; not the other way around.

Do you truly think Mr. MJ Akbar has on national mood and sympathies? How can one achieve prosperity when the majority is continually harassed by minority interests and sometimes state-machinery itself? For example: how can prosperity occur when a muslim mob protests against a flyover built after demolishing a mosque built in the middle of the road? What should stay and what should go?

saket · Post by **saket** » 14 Jan 2011 20:34

somnath wrote:But RSS is not necessarily a threat to anyone, at least not yet (till anything is proven) - its ideology is a threat to itself, which is not necessarily a bad thing..But unfortunately, the RSS tutelage is preventing the BJP from developing into a truly right wing alternative force...

Sorry to interject, but the BJP would not have existed were it not for the RSS. And you are mistaken in assuming that cow-urine, mandir entirely constitute the ideology of the RSS which is more of a nationalist viewpoint.

At least Marxian theorists left enough imprint to influence (at some level, thankfully not fully!) succeeding generations of elite students..(Ditto in the US for the conservative strain of thought)...All that RSS has is Dattopant Thengadi!

You are comparing Marxism to the RSS which are different classes of entities. Better compare RSS to the CPI(M), CITU or Seva Dal .. how many economic worthies do the latter have in their ranks?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 14 Jan 2011 20:43

shravan wrote:
Tamang wrote:Hundreds block Delhi's Jungpura flyover after DDA demolishes mosque
Delhi CM: Demolished mosque would be rebuilt

That was built on encroached land. The court ordered demolition and now the government will legalize the encroachment to reconstruct it.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 14 Jan 2011 20:51

Muppalla wrote:More details. I know how to read the article and decipher. I leave it up to the readers. More and more details.

http://beta.epw.in/static_media/PDF/arc ... frelot.pdf

All I can say is that the "spark" that has started with Hindu Pad Padshahi has just improvised and modernized. This ideology will never die even if they are called ch**tiyas and their ideology a ch**tiyapa. Muppalla garu..thanks for the link.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Jan 2011 21:08

Indresh Kumar: Needle of suspicion on Government

Bomb blasts?

Are the government's agencies doing all these things?

Why would the government do such things? What is their benefit?

The government indulges in lots of businesses. How are these scams happening? I demand the investigation of the government itself! In the first round, the government arrested Muslims and harassed them. Now, they have arrested Hindus and will harass them. The government will divide and rule. One should look if government is into this business.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 14 Jan 2011 21:14

About the "scholarship" of the RSS, I am yet to read anything of significance that can stand the scrutinny of even a minor refereed journal, forget setting down an agenda a la Nietscze, Voltaire, Marx, even Gandhi, Nehru, Martin Luther King, Kissinger...Where is the equivalent of a Heritage foundation? Where is the equivalent of a Henry Kissinger? KS Sudarshan is supposed to be an "intellectual" (certificate from Tarun Vijay) - on what basis? Conspiracy theories on Sonia Gandhi? Cow urine? Dattopant Thengadi is supposed to be the other intellectual, of the economic kind - of revitalising khadi? Stoning KFC outlets? On how all MNCs are vile? Is it a coincidence that so many of those with some scholastic credibility in the BJP (or BJP sympathies) are daggers drawn with the RSS - Jaswant Singh, Arun Shourie? I wont delve on the mandir issue as that would just take the discussion way more OT...

OT
Where is the Heritage Foundation for commies in India? What have the commies contributed in Bengal, other than putting burning tires around managers necks and driving out industry from the part of India they have infested. What has the great commie ideology done in India other than crying out "chiner chairman amader chairman" and painting walls with mediocre portraits of angry stalin, lenin, marx, angels and mao? What agenda do the commies set in India? Oh commies pontificating from the mount, you have forgotten Marichjhaapi where Bengali Hindu refugees were massacred because there was no "other" way to accomodate. "Eshob to hyei thaake" - these things "just" happen. And we are being "thankful" about imprint of commie ideology on young minds below 25 !!!
\OT

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Jan 2011 21:20

how long can we tolerate the loonies and the drones. This can continue without any end.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Jan 2011 21:23

Venkarl wrote:All I can say is that the "spark" that has started with Hindu Pad Padshahi has just improvised and modernized. This ideology will never die even if they are called ch**tiyas and their ideology a ch**tiyapa. Muppalla garu..thanks for the link.

Are you trying to justify the bomb-for-bomb policy mentioned in the article?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Jan 2011 21:27

Muppalla wrote:More details. I know how to read the article and decipher. I leave it up to the readers. More and more details.

http://beta.epw.in/static_media/PDF/arc ... frelot.pdf

This guy is a rss baitor for more than 15-20 years.
Not only that as a foreigner he has been against Indian nationalism and nationhood. Strange people

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2011 21:33

Stepping back I think many entitites wanted to bomb the Samjahauta Express: LeT, SIMI, David Headley and "saffron terrorists" for different reasons.
Most likely LeT and DCH, SIMI did it. DCH confessed it to US authorities under the plea bargain deal. Recall if any new stuff develops linking him he could be tried for that.

The others were happy that it happened and knowing their own ideas thought their own did it. And under police 'interrogation' are confessing to it. This is the only way to connect the dots to account for the multiple and disparate claims of the event.

INC wants to selectively accept one of them as it helps their vote-bank politics.

Confusion over Confessions!

added later:

Confusion over confessions
January 14, 2011 11:53:17 PM

Rakesh K Singh | New Delhi

Probe into terror attacks is mired in vagueness as various persons have admitted to same crime

With investigation so far linking the banned SIMI, Swami Aseemanand and associates, and David Headley with Samjhauta Express and some other blasts, the probe into the case is mired in a maze of confusion.

Top SIMI commanders Safdar Nagori, Kamruddin Nagori and Aamil Parvez had, in their narco test, ruled out involvement of Lt Col Srikant Purohit or Pragya Singh Thakur in the Malegaon blasts and owned up to the Samjhauta Express explosion.

However, Aseemanand has reportedly claimed that he and his associates — Riteshwar, Sadhvi Pragya and Sunil Joshi — met at Riteshwar’s house in Valsad in June 2006 to target Muslim localities with a view to avenge spiralling terror strikes by jihadi groups in the country.

“I told everybody that bomb ka jawab bomb se dena chahiye, (I told everyone we should answer bombs with bombs). At that meeting, it was also decided to target Samjhauta Express,” if Aseemanand’s confessions are to be believed.

Further muddying the picture is well-known disclosure by Faiza Outalha, former wife of David Coleman Headley, about his role in Samjhauta bombing.

Even before the investigators came to know about Headley’s link and zeroed in on the Hindu outfits, top SIMI leaders had admitted the involvement of SIMI and jihadi elements in the Samjhauta train carnage and Malegaon blasts of 2006. Apart from the Samjhauta Express and Malegaon blasts, Nagori and his associates have also confessed to SIMI’s role and involvement of Muslims in terror attacks in Mumbai, Aurangabad, Hyderabad, Ajmer and the shootout at the American consulate in Kolkata.

Nagori told a team of doctors of FSL, Bangalore, “In the Samjhauta Express blasts, some persons from Pakistan had come and they had purchased the suitcase cover at Kataria Market, Indore. One person (from SIMI) Tanzeem had helped them to get the suitcase cover stitched. SIMI leader Abdul Razak had helped Pakistanis in the Samjhauta Express blasts.”

The banned outfit’s commander revealed that meetings were held by SIMI at Kurla, Kapadia Nagar and Mira Road in Mumbai for executing the terror attacks on Samjhauta Express and other blasts in the country.

During the drug interrogation, Nagori revealed that SIMI has a strong presence in Maharashtra, including Malegaon, and he was "aware of the complicity of Muslims in the 2006 Malegaon blasts".

The 32-page narco analysis test report of Safdar Nagori, Kamruddin and Aamil Parvez (a copy of the FSL report is with The Pioneer) quotes Nagori as having said, "In the Malegaon blasts (2006), some of the Muslim members were involved and that he (Nagori) was aware of it. SIMI members were involved in the Samjhauta Express train blasts."

Interestingly, the narco analysis test reports of the trio were studied by the ATS, Mumbai, which had subsequently questioned them.

The Madhya Pradesh Police had arrested the top SIMI commanders, including the Nagoris and Parvez in March 2008.

Nagori also revealed during the narco test that Razak (who had helped the Pakistanis in Samjhauta train blasts) had informed him beforehand about the Samjhauta Express blasts. Razak had sought the help of West Bengal SIMI president Misbah-ul-Islam for the Samjhauta explosions. Razak has a number of relatives in Pakistan, according to Nagori's revelations. Kamruddin Nagori also concurred with Razak's involvement in the Samjhauta Express blasts.

Also note that the duo was arrested by MP police in March 2008 yet the September 2008 attack at Malegoan still took place. Shouldnt they have been on alert considering the earlier blasts in 2006? maybe there was no transfer of info between the two state polices units?

vishnua · Post by **vishnua** » 14 Jan 2011 21:34

What are the "effective" methods to neutralize the current lonies and drones and what are the future actions that needed to placed.

i..e Cure and prevention

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 14 Jan 2011 21:35

I have posted that article only to decipher it. I don't agree with him with his tone/conclusions. For some folks it is easy to understand and connect the dots.

vishnua · Post by **vishnua** » 14 Jan 2011 21:44

It is the confirmation of "C" system existence whether making it public about it existence is "determental" or not is another question

The tone of the article is very celar cut but I think ppl need to save the article to understand how the baiting is done...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2011 21:48

I wonder what will TSP & PRC think of the severe internal division in Indian politics with covert civil war inside INC and outside against its opposition? Add to that uncle is very busy with internal problems and external debt!

Its like 1962 dejavu.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 14 Jan 2011 21:53

Arjun wrote:
Venkarl wrote:All I can say is that the "spark" that has started with Hindu Pad Padshahi has just improvised and modernized. This ideology will never die even if they are called ch**tiyas and their ideology a ch**tiyapa. Muppalla garu..thanks for the link.
Are you trying to justify the bomb-for-bomb policy mentioned in the article?

No Sir...I am supporting the foundational cause -- India being Bharat.

Apart from what we support and what we don't....It is a natural tendency for revolts to happen when the ruling system crosses its limits in a country or a colony....only methods differ...Ramana's mention of Raychaudhuri's book gave me a vague understanding about this pattern.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 14 Jan 2011 22:05

ramana wrote:I wonder what will TSP & PRC think of the severe internal division in Indian politics with covert civil war inside INC and outside against its opposition? Add to that uncle is very busy with internal problems and external debt!

Its like 1962 dejavu.

Now that is a worry Ramana garu.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jan 2011 22:15

Is the Marxist theory of state conducive to internal security of India? From Marx, to stronger outlining by Lenin, for Marxists of all hues and shades - state is an instrument of coercion in the hands of "one class" to exploit and subjugate another class. Marxists are supposed to find/construct/build/define a class of "proletariat" [a source of great deal of confusion] in the period of "capitalism" [ another great source of confusion] who will seize and control state power to weild it for themselves. The seizing was once hoped for by Engels himself through the electoral process and he was dewy eyed about it in Germany decades before his apparent growth of communists turned into a overnight victory for Hitler. The question of violent overthrow of the state has never been formally denounced by the Indian Marxists as something non-Marxian and rejectable. They only debate and hem and haw about its time of manifestation, and most of the time the parliamentary road is put forward as kind of an interim hedge and organizational expansion tool to convince the more enthusiastic.

With such a theory of "state", should we welcome the impact of Marxists or Marxian thoughts for India? In most cases, Marxian implementors have been forced to construct fanciful definitions of the proletariat and almost inevitably landed up not even trusting their own ccreated class - but keeping all control in the so-called vanguard - the party. The process never ends and even the party cannot be trusted so it leads to a "great leader".

We can see why some among the centre-left that control the current rashtra would feel dewy eyed about this - ah a "great leader" to lick up to and gain prosperity by not indulging in social conflict that thretaens the power of the great leader. But is that good for India or for us? For our security? For the future?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Jan 2011 22:33

ramana wrote:Stepping back I think many entitites wanted to bomb the Samjahauta Express: LeT, SIMI, David Headley and "saffron terrorists" for different reasons.
Most likely LeT and DCH, SIMI did it. DCH confessed it to US authorities under the plea bargain deal. Recall if any new stuff develops linking him he could be tried for that.

In the absence of corroborating evidence, the whole thing does seem like a case of braggats being taken seriously. But Purohit has said that he hired SIMI to make the bombs (and bomb the train?) since he didn't have people with bomb making abilities. So in this version, SIMI being the bombers is not incompatible with Purohit being the brains.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Jan 2011 22:38

Venkarl wrote:Apart from what we support and what we don't....It is a natural tendency for revolts to happen when the ruling system crosses its limits in a country or a colony....only methods differ...Ramana's mention of Raychaudhuri's book gave me a vague understanding about this pattern.

We are talking about terrorism incidents that have killed innocents - this is no revolt !

- Dispute that these are the handiwork of 'Hindu terrorists' - acceptable (until scientific evidence is provided)
- Question whether there could be CTs, agendas behind the involvement of these so called Hindus - acceptable
- Challenge the supposed involvement of RSS or any of its leaders behind these acts - acceptable

But there CANNOT be any sympathy or justification whatsoever for morons of whichever color that have committed these barbarisms on innocent lives.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2011 22:41

vera_K, That link bolsters Indresh Kumar's interview that who knows who is doing what?

A question was Karkare the ATS chief that charged the SIMI network for Malegoan? Anyone knows?

yes he was. He becam ATS chief in Jan 2008 after coming back from attahcment to RAW. The bicycle blast took place in 29 Sept 2008. He quickly arrested 11 SIMI people and on Oct 25 2008 3 activists of Rashtriya Jagran Manch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemant_Karkare

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jan 2011 22:42

Perhaps the game plan is now to show that "Hindu right" organized and resourced Islamic militants to carry out all violence or all terror so that even Pakistan can be bailed out. The best suspect is the one who does not exist - because he cannot speak. No Muslim and no Paki can be allowed to be seen as having anything to do with terror.

Even if they are seen as implicated, it must have been misguided manipulation by the Hindus. So in this case gradually the Pakistani loonyiat is converging with Congress spokespersons and supreme leaders and loose cannon independent Marxist [possible to be both?!!] intellectuals like ARoy and "indepndent Muslim" [again possible to be both?] separatists like Geelani, all - coming up to a consistent common theory. The main problem is the "majority community identity" which makes Muslims or Christians do horrible things to discredit these poor innocent ideologies.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 14 Jan 2011 23:01

Arjun wrote:
Venkarl wrote:Apart from what we support and what we don't....It is a natural tendency for revolts to happen when the ruling system crosses its limits in a country or a colony....only methods differ...Ramana's mention of Raychaudhuri's book gave me a vague understanding about this pattern.
We are talking about terrorism incidents that have killed innocents - this is no revolt !

- Dispute that these are the handiwork of 'Hindu terrorists' - acceptable (until scientific evidence is provided)
- Question whether there could be CTs, agendas behind the involvement of these so called Hindus - acceptable
- Challenge the supposed involvement of RSS or any of its leaders behind these acts - acceptable

But there CANNOT be any sympathy or justification whatsoever for morons of whichever color that have committed these barbarisms on innocent lives.

Yes.You are correct.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Jan 2011 23:09

ramana wrote:vera_K, That link bolsters Indresh Kumar's interview that who knows who is doing what?

A question was Karkare the ATS chief that charged the SIMI network for Malegoan? Anyone knows?

yes he was. He becam ATS chief in Jan 2008 after coming back from attahcment to RAW. The bicycle blast took place in 29 Sept 2008. He quickly arrested 11 SIMI people and on Oct 25 2008 3 activists of Rashtriya Jagran Manch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemant_Karkare

There were two attacks in Malegaon. One in 2006, another in 2008. SIMI was blamed for the one in 2006 by ATS. When Karkare took over ATS leadership, he busted the Purohit led group for the 2008 attack. The 2006 attack is now being reinvestigated by CBI. Even here, Purohits claim is that he hired SIMI to make the bombs for the 2008 attack.

Looking at the timeline here, it comes out that Karkare was critical in shifting the direction of the investigation. The unresolved question here is if this was genuine or under political pressure. One thing that puzzles me is how INC's Amaresh Misra could have felt that RSS/Mossad/CIA killed Karkare while the 26/11 attacks were in progress. And then there's the footsoldier Kasab wearing saffron threads to send investigators down the Hindu terror track. Perhaps Digvijay Singh has inadvertently given a clue by showing he was in touch with Karkare while the investigations were on.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jan 2011 23:25

There is a precedence in the so-called Great Soviet Trials/Purges of 1937. Here erstwhile opponents of Stalin [well sometimes co-conspirators] like Bukharin [Lenin's favourite Bukharchik] were given public show trials where they confessed to fantastic crimes against the state and party and the nation and plots of violent overthrow.

It has been suggested that some of these ex-communists actually added on to the "descriptions" in such a way that it would make the confessions completely trash and unbelievable. Even when the trials actually went on, outside world immediately started spoofing them. It was people like Bukharin's intellect that made them send out a message and an indirect defense for themselves knowing fully well that they would ultimately be killed by Stalin to remove all obstructions to personal power.

Interstsing thing is that the investigators and interrogators used to find "evidence" and "confessions" were themselves soon dispatched - like Vyshinsky and Yagoda. This is a time tested method to lose all traces and traceability to the supreme leader or oligarchy. So when an investigator who has some secret service background, and who finds all the political material required to get rid of politically unpalatable guys - is himself "dispatched", we should consider the Vyshinsky-Yagoda-Stalin model as a possibility.

With potential contacts with elements that have declared state-overthrowing agend alike Maoists, should not Digvijay be investigated more for his alleged "special conversations" with Karkare - just so soon before Karkare was "dispatched"? Was Karkare under pressure or was givena special assignment from the RAW stint with a list of undercovers to chase out? Because they would be obstacles in a certain political programme? In that case it is an even greater risk - whereby the secret services are no being purged of elements that are considered politically unreliable by the current controlling clique.

All important lessons for the future. For any political party that wants to take up the pieces of India that the Congress leaves behind in its wake!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jan 2011 01:09

Secular government onleee ....

Delhi CM: Demolished mosque would be rebuilt

NEW DELHI: Delhi chief minister Sheila Dikshit met Shahi Imam Syed Ahmed Bukhari on Friday morning to defuse tension brewing over the demolition of a mosque in South Delhi. The chief minister had an hour-long conversation with the Imam where she assured that the mosque will be rebuilt in the same area.

"She came here to convey the message of the Union Home Minister and the Urban Development Minister Jaipal Reddy to state that mosque will be rebuilt. But until the mosque is built, our fight shall continue. Mosques are the identity of Muslims and we cannot tolerate repression on that count," Bukhari said while addressing a gathering of over 10,000 people at the Jama Masjid.
...
...
.The Delhi Development Authority (DDA) demolished the mosque in south-east Delhi's Jangpura-B Block area at around 6am amidst heavy police presence on Wednesday. The DDA said the site was illegally encroached and slums and the mosque were built on it. On October 28, 2010, the Delhi High Court ordered the demolition of the structure within four weeks and warned that any further delay would be considered contempt of court. The demolition triggered rioting in the city.
...
...

Where are these secular intellectuals who oppose temples coming up everywhere but turn a blind eye when govt land is cobbled up by "minorities" ?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jan 2011 01:19

^^^
Syed Bukhari leads Friday prayers at site of demolished mosque in Delhi

...
The Shahi Imam claimed that Urban Development Minister S. Jaipal Reddy and Ms. Dikshit had promised him that the land would be purchased from the DDA and given to the Delhi Wakf Board to reconstruct the mosque.
...

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 15 Jan 2011 02:16

somnath wrote: The problem with RSS is exactly that it is NOT what most Indians would like in a right wing representative organisation...and there is space for one... As a result, any ideology that is constantly evoking "tensions" of the past is unlikely to receive middle class sanction...An economic policy around "swadeshi" is hardly going to enthuse a bunch of techies looking to join Google and IBM and HP...

The problem with Somnath is that he is a mere thinker sitting up in an ivory tower, not a doer.

My dear Somnath, RSS does not exist to serve your vision of what the right wing in India should or should not do. They exist to serve their own vision of what the right wing in India and indeed India itself should look like. Why should they serve yours or indeed anybody elses vision of what a right wing in India should be like?

somnath wrote:It does not have a semblence of scholarship, its primary worldviews around cow, mandir-masjid, economy et al are so anachronistic that 21st century India has no time for it..

So similar to issues used by Tilak and Gandhi ji to mobilize masses! True, the great whores of Bombay and Delhi do not have the time for it, but they barely have time to solve hunger, crime, terrorism, corruption, casteism in their own backyards! They are really busy people.

somnath wrote:While RSS as a source of "terror elements" is a matter yet unproven, its utility as a right wing force is nil, in fact negative...And if it is proven that some of these loonies originated from RSS, it is really sayonara for the organisation...

Hmm.. its the *only* existing opposition to the corrupt order presented by the Congress and its utility is nil, if not negative. Too much glue sniffing in office, Somnath ji?

I had posed a few questions to you, Somnath ji, a couple of pages ago on this thread. The mods had stepped in and declared the discussion offlimits, but since it has started again, I am taking the liberty of posing to you the same questions, a little modified for continuity with the context, again.

What is the root cause of your antipathy to the Sangh?

Why do you repeatedly reach up to the absurd comparison the Sangh with the likes of Taliban et al, but step back before you make your argument itself absurd?

Are you a secret admirer of the Sangh, that you have posted such helpful roadmaps for them to make themselves relevant as a right wing force mkS (MK Somnath)? If not, can you stop the concern trolling?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Jan 2011 04:59

brihaspati wrote:

Singling out the RSS for bashing will not serve your purpose. It may actually appear to become more attractive - especially when seen in the context of the role of the current Indian rashtra in its differential treatment of ideologies.

Why do you reply to the deaf who does not understand the concept of nationalism

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 15 Jan 2011 06:13

somnath wrote:
rkirankr wrote:So you say RSS== Taliban

About the "scholarship" of the RSS, I am yet to read anything of significance that can stand the scrutinny of even a minor refereed journal, forget setting down an agenda a la Nietscze, Voltaire, Marx, even Gandhi, Nehru, Martin Luther King, Kissinger...Where is the equivalent of a Heritage foundation? Where is the equivalent of a Henry Kissinger? OT...

What is utterly fascinating about this list of august, renowned intellectuals that the poster evidently considers respectable enough to win his stamp of approval, is that exactly two of them are Indian. You guessed which ones! Though apparently even those two make only the consolation prize list, standing humbly behind Voltaire and Marx in the first row.

Without comparable luminaries among its ranks, goes the contention, the RSS is devoid of intellectuals. Never mind Thengadi. To say nothing of SP Mookerjee, V Savarkar, Deen Dayal Upadhyaya, Sita Ram Goel, Madan Mohan Malaviya, Atal Behari Vajpayee (surely, a mere flyspeck on the august lapels of Kissinger!) David Frawley, Francois Gaultier, Koenraad Elst, KS Lal, Harsh Narain, and Ram Swaroop. Or even the pre RSS/ Jan Sangh forerunners of Hindutva, such as Lokmanya Tilak or Sri Aurobindo.

But of course, these fellows aren't mostly white- I mean producers of "peer reviewed" work, are they? Where is their sexxtuple A plus mucho grande credit rating from Hahvahd and Oxbridge and the University of Chicago? Where is their pat on the back, their irreproachable certificate of scholarship from that mutual fellat... I mean, mutual admiration society constituted by Western armchair Marxists, liberal academic fellow-travelers and "journalistic" camp-followers who fall to their knees and slobber reflexively whenever Noam Chomsky's name is mentioned?

If the incestuous little circuit of Humanities and South Asia Studies departments at the world's Elite Schools don't consider the RSS' thinkers as worthy "peers", then it's easy to deduce that the RSS has no intellectuals. And that the RSS' narrative of its own people and their civilization is a falsified fascist construct... as opposed to "South Asian history" as selflessly assembled by western academia and dutifully "peer reviewed" by the same western academia and finally revealed to us by genuine intellectuals like Romila Thapar, Tara Ali Baig and Ramchandra Guha.

And who are the products of India's Elite Schools to disagree with this? What do you want them to do, trash their only chance ever at peer-acceptance by the coc... I mean, torchbearers of Western Academia? The one thing their papa's money can't buy and pay for? Come on!

You heard it here folks... On the internal security watch thread. The middle class (not the elites!) have realized that civil strife isn't conducive to economic prosperity. Sadly, by virtue of noblesse oblige, it falls to the elite classes of India (the ones who studied at Elite Schools) to respect the wishes of those selfish, grasping middle classes-- and ensure that nothing gets in the way of their economic prosperity by risking the generation of civil strife. Nothing. Internal security included. Jai ho!

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 15 Jan 2011 06:51

Wow, +1 RD garu.....can only nod in wonderment onlee...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jan 2011 08:22

somnath wrote:.Most people, at least the (predominantly hindu) middle class, dont seem to share your idea...How many RSS members have you seen in an Indian university? In my time, not so long ago - there wasnt a single RSS member in the student ranks of India's elite schools..Though many of us were right wingers - staunchly supportive of the BOMB, a hard stance on Kashmir et al...In the ranks of the Indian professional workforce, how many RSS members do you see? I havent come across a single one in a decade...Theories on cow protection, cow urine, swadeshi dont jell with an iphone generation...

Frankly, this is awful logic.

The question of whether Indians like/dislike RSS and/or other right-wing organizations has to be studied. But this is hardly the best way to understand the inclinations of Indians.

In college/universities, students do not have the time for reading/learning about broader geopolitical/strategic challenges faced by the society. They are also intellectually ill-equipped because of a shallow background. When I passed class 10, the history book ended with India's independence in 1947. I guess we all know what our history books contain, so I don't need to go there.

When they grow up, they get their news from Barkha Dutt, Sagarika Ghose, Suhasini Haider, Siddthartha Vardharajan and Mani Shankar Aiyar. Mission accomplished! (Even non-English newspapers are not that great.)

I have met IIT graduates who don't know that a part of J&K is occupied by the Pakis and the Chinese. I am sure they can't find Tawang on a map. They are not stupid people. They spend their time reading Rushdie and Shakespeare. What should we expect from people who are far less educated?

Democracy depends upon an informed public. Give 5 books written by mainstream diplomats (say 5 Foreign Secretaries like J.N. Dixit) to a group of Indians and study their views. It will be interesting to analyze their opinion regarding issues like "joint control", "we will go more than half way", "accession is not merger" and "we are siamese twins".

It is possible that they will still not vote for right-wing parties. In that case, they will reap the fruits of their actions. Voters don't always make the right decision. Laloo Yadav and Rabri Devi ruled Bihar for 15 years. It was not exactly a fairy tale.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Jan 2011 11:44

^^^I wish there was a separate thread on "right wing politics and nation views" - that would have been a better place to discuss the growth and prospects of right wing politics in general and the role of RSS in that...

Rudradev wrote:To say nothing of SP Mookerjee, V Savarkar, Deen Dayal Upadhyaya, Sita Ram Goel, Madan Mohan Malaviya, Atal Behari Vajpayee (surely, a mere flyspeck on the august lapels of Kissinger!) David Frawley, Francois Gaultier, Koenraad Elst, KS Lal, Harsh Narain, and Ram Swaroop.Or even the pre RSS/ Jan Sangh forerunners of Hindutva, such as Lokmanya Tilak or Sri Aurobindo.

Name dropping is fine - but interestingly the profoundest ideologues of the list (comprising of assorted politicians and journalists mostly) you quote come from people who would have had huge issues with the antediluvianism of the RSS - Madan Mohan Malviya, Tilak and Aurobindo...And KS Lal!!

If you wanted a right wing historian, the reference should be Sir Jadunath Sarkar and RC Majumdar...And then you would be talking about people with an idea, not KS Lal, for heaven's sake (I was in DU, and as I was interested in history as a hobby, I used to talk to the members of the history faculty/students quite often - the unanimous views on KS Lal's scholarship were not quite "ideological" - and we saw that by his actions when he was placed in NCERT to review the syllabus)...

Is it any suprise that the most articulate right wingers in the country today - JAswant singh, Arun Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta - have had (or still have) huge issues with the RSS?

brihaspati wrote:Is the Marxist theory of state conducive to internal security of India?

It isnt, period - we owe lots of thanks to PVNR and MMS for having driven those shiboleths away...Neither though is a lot of balderdash that passes off as "ideology" of the RSS conducive to the functioning of a modern progressive nation state..

In any case, this isnt a thread to discuss merits of an ideology, it is about "internal security"..

The biggest problem with the so-called hindu terror, and the attempts by many to somehow justify it as a hindu bulwark against muslim atrocities, is that it undermines the very basis of India's narrative...Our fight isnt civilisational - it is against a global Islamist jihad which in our case is nurtured by a neighbouring country..The moment we have cases of competitive terror, the narrative gets reduced to a special case (giffen goods if you will

) of hindu-muslim antagonism..We lose th fight immediately then...

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Jan 2011 12:15

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 15 Jan 2011 12:40

somnath wrote:Our fight isnt civilisational - it is against a global Islamist jihad which in our case is nurtured by a neighbouring country..The moment we have cases of competitive terror, the narrative gets reduced to a special case (giffen goods if you will ) of hindu-muslim antagonism..We lose th fight immediately then...

This seems like a very British/American point of view. From an Indian perspective, the fight is indeed civilisational, unless one holds the view that India did not and can not have a common civilisation and that there are irreconcilable differences between Hindus and Muslims.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Jan 2011 18:38

somnath wrote
It isnt, period - we owe lots of thanks to PVNR and MMS for having driven those shiboleths away...Neither though is a lot of balderdash that passes off as "ideology" of the RSS conducive to the functioning of a modern progressive nation state..

In any case, this isnt a thread to discuss merits of an ideology, it is about "internal security"..

I had kept the question of Marxist attitude towards "state" firmly in context of "internal security", and it was in response to your glowing warm about the supposed effects of Marxian influence on the "elite" students of India. Then again the Marxist influence on elite students came about because I was responding with a direct anecdotal expperience of mine to the fantastic claim that you were making about all students in higher educational institutions of India and how they did not support RSS/ or similar "right wing" ideologies as somehow being representative of general Indian middle class attitudes. One of your peculiarities is twisting and turning around from point to point without keeping track of the blanket claims you make on behalf of "all Indians" "all middle class" "all students" "all elite students" etc.

The fundamental problem with your crusade against the RSS is your implication that RSS is somehow a security threat for India. You have not shown it. Associated with this is your doing an equal equal with Talebani type terror with RSS. Only crass political mouthpieces from the Congress or CPI(M) or Maoists would be expected to make such gross generalizations. Since you said you spent time in Bengal, and you also spent time among students - surely you must have come across the piece on why Rabindranath Tagore and the male-goat ("Raam-chhagol") are equal? Because they both have beards. Your logical faculties - at least for RSS==Taleban is of the same intellectual order.

The biggest problem with the so-called hindu terror, and the attempts by many to somehow justify it as a hindu bulwark against muslim atrocities, is that it undermines the very basis of India's narrative...Our fight isnt civilisational - it is against a global Islamist jihad which in our case is nurtured by a neighbouring country..The moment we have cases of competitive terror, the narrative gets reduced to a special case (giffen goods if you will ) of hindu-muslim antagonism..We lose th fight immediately then...

What exactly is India's narrative? Do you have a monopoly on it? Where does global Jihad come from? It has no basis in ideology of Islam? No organizational and ideological inspiration from the Indian heartlands? Deobandis and Barelvis came from outside India? Where did you construct your "hobby" of studying history - from DU Naxalite propagandists? (You know, you alone need not have had contacts with DU students and faculty and the orgs that operate overtly and covertly there!) Do you really know about KS Lal and his academic beginnings? If possible search out his early works and connections to Prof. Muhammad Habib who endorsed his work. You are fond of instructing others to "study" and "research" before talking - why not turn that inwards a bit and apply to yourself?

It is you who are conflating any potential attempt at defense from the non-Muslim non-Christian side where the rashtra has proven its leaning towards protecting and supporting the Muslim or Christian politics with declared aims of eventually taking over the rashtra - with the aggressive organizational and political moves being made by Muslim and Christian organizations, with the terror specifically aimed by Muslim terror orgs from around India and who work possibly also with internal support from inside India.

This is a standard tactic on the part of Islamophiles that any attemnpt at resistance or building alternative structures or organizations that can coordinate defense against Islamists or Christianists - is a provocation to Muslims and Christians and therefore will intensify or precipitate more of Islamic or Chritianist terror. Are you acting as a mouthpiece for similar sentiments or arguments as a propganda tool to prevent resistance? You should ask yourself and your instigators as to what should Hindus or Buddhists or Sikhs think of the consistent non-chalance and non-action when Muslims carried out organized genocidal moves on Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists in Kashmir from as early as 63-65, during the Partition and its aftermath, and even now what goes on in Murshidabad in Bengal? Every time jihadi violence has taken place on the non-Muslim and non-Christian, the Centre-Left governments have reluctantly moved - most of the time late enough so that the Muslim or Christian organized armed moves have ample time to carry out their objective, and only then the rashtra will move to prevent the backlash.

Your "narrative of India" is not mine. Moreover I have studied history more seriously and intensely than you as is obvious to me from your shallow copies of standard jargon mentioned by self-hating intellectuals. In fact in that respect, if you carefully make studies of how your esteemed intellectuals from DU or elsewhere are quoted and used by "peers" from the "west" - it will immediately be obvious that they are quoted only to bolster certain specific constructions that they need in Indian politics that have always been the theme for imperialist or neo-imperialist powers. Nothing much fundamental in contribution to "civilizational inquiry" otherwise is attributed to "professional Indian historians". Wherever archaeologists' works challenge the attributed primacy/antiquity of the wetsren religions/memes/civilizations - such works are criticized and doubts cast as to their quality. Even your admired historians often lambast their own colleagues in archaeology - saying "stones do not speak" and claiming that only they [did you also pick up this habit of speaking on behalf of all Indians from them?] "can interpret the stones".

Your narrative is flawed, and as much a myth as you dismiss contray narratives to be. No harm in that. But if your narrative brings down the security of what we hold dear in our civilization - and which is not just about cow-urine [ since the Greek still sacrifice a cock on the grounds before soil is broken to lay foundations for a building surely the classical Greek philosophies have no merit in them? Because the Roman Catholic Church maintains professional exorcists who can sprinkle holy water and chant latin passages to chase demons and evil spirits there cannot be anything worthwhile to preserve in Christianity? oh - the list can ebe amde very long indeed!] - then you belong to the class of traitors we have always known in history. People who sweet talk and try to convince us when the threat could yet be tackled, cleverly using aspects of our philosophy to extend tolerance and protection to our enemies who are not yet strong enough to completely overwhelm us - so that they have time to prepare, and are not snuffed out too early. Then when they are ready, and can succeed in their genocidal agenda, such traitors join up and indulge their fanstasies of power and hatred on their own birth culture and people.

Exactly similar arguments appear in narratives that the last Gujarat kings used to gloss over and as a soporific to protect and encourage Islamics in Gujarat, until Ulugh Khan put an end to all that twisted propaganda once and for all. But then Islamics had already made their bases, populated regions and localities and by closely interacting and operating in the area for long knew all that would be worth knowing froma military viewpoint. There are storeis of even supposedly faithful servants, functionaries or "friends" and neighbours who overnight betrayed/looted/collaborated with Ulugh. This is what you remind me of.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 15 Jan 2011 20:01

putnanja wrote:Secular government onleee ....

Delhi CM: Demolished mosque would be rebuilt

NEW DELHI: Delhi chief minister Sheila Dikshit met Shahi Imam Syed Ahmed Bukhari on Friday morning to defuse tension brewing over the demolition of a mosque in South Delhi. The chief minister had an hour-long conversation with the Imam where she assured that the mosque will be rebuilt in the same area.

"She came here to convey the message of the Union Home Minister and the Urban Development Minister Jaipal Reddy to state that mosque will be rebuilt. But until the mosque is built, our fight shall continue. Mosques are the identity of Muslims and we cannot tolerate repression on that count," Bukhari said while addressing a gathering of over 10,000 people at the Jama Masjid.
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.The Delhi Development Authority (DDA) demolished the mosque in south-east Delhi's Jangpura-B Block area at around 6am amidst heavy police presence on Wednesday. The DDA said the site was illegally encroached and slums and the mosque were built on it. On October 28, 2010, the Delhi High Court ordered the demolition of the structure within four weeks and warned that any further delay would be considered contempt of court. The demolition triggered rioting in the city.
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Where are these secular intellectuals who oppose temples coming up everywhere but turn a blind eye when govt land is cobbled up by "minorities" ?

A friend of mine avoided being killed that day by those blood thirsty moderate Indian muslims. He watched in shock as hundreds of muslims converged on his car chanting allahuakbar & broke the windows, trying to pull him out, his quick reflexes saved his life & he managed to get away. He also said that he saw atleast two cars in front of him that had been destroyed & were being put on fire. And the media has not reported any casualties.