Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

The End Of Retirement As We Know It
by Megan McArdle - The Atlantic
"I don't know if it's ever going to be realistic that everyone saves enough to spend the last third of their life on vacation."
-Allison Schrager
But ask yourself the same question you should have been asking then: To what extent is the problem that the retirement benefits for unionized public sector workers have become too generous? And to what extent is the problem that retirement benefits for everybody else have become too stingy?

I would suggest it's more the latter than the former. The promise of stable retirement--one not overly dependent on the ups and downs of the stock market--used to be part of the social contract. If you got an education and worked a steady job, then you got to live out the rest of your life comfortably. You might not be rich, but you wouldn't be poor, either.

Unions, whatever their flaws, have delivered on that for their members. (In theory, retirement was supposed to rest on a "three-legged stool" of Social Security, pensions, and private benefits.) But unions have not been able to secure similar benefits for everybody else. That's why the gap exists, although perhaps not for long.

The fact is that local and state governments have promised a lot more than they can deliver financially, in part because people love public services but hate to pay the taxes for them. In the short term, then, budget cuts are probably inevitable. And, in this political universe, the likely alternative to reducing public employee compensation is cutting essential services for people who are just as worthy and quite likely more needy.

In the long term, though, it seems like we should be looking for ways make sure that all workers have a decent living and a stable retirement, rather than taking away the security that some, albeit too few, have already. But that's a conversation about shared vulnerability and shared prosperity--a conversation we don't seem to be having right now.
The old order is dying. Welcome to the brave new world. It won't likely be pretty, though.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

Hari Seldon wrote:"I don't know if it's ever going to be realistic that everyone saves enough to spend the last third of their life on vacation."
-Allison Schrager
Public sector pensions like the banking & financing 'industry' are a big ripoff. People with no retirement pension in the private sector (a good 72% of the working public) are being forced to pay for gold plated pension plans of govt workers.

They get generous salaries, high immunity to being laid off, losses their pension funds make while gambling on the stock market are forced to be made whole by the taxpayer (they will keep the profits thanks), their pensions is indexed to inflation so taxpayers have to keep paying in..etc. Its crazy.

The only way out is for states to declare bankruptcy and then eliminate these public sector pensions in restructuring and hopefully the public sector itself through privatization. As it stands, the public sector unions are working ahead of the curve to make it harder for states to declare bankruptcy.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

They get generous salaries, high immunity to being laid off, losses their pension funds make while gambling on the stock market are forced to be made whole by the taxpayer (they will keep the profits thanks), their pensions is indexed to inflation so taxpayers have to keep paying in..etc. Its crazy.

The only way out is for states to declare bankruptcy and then eliminate these public sector pensions in restructuring
Yeah, yeah, don't v all know it! All those war veterans for instance, what right do they have to sponge off the Tea Partyists? Pah! Whose fault is it that their daddies were too poor and stupid to send them to Hahvahd Business School instead of their having to go join the Marine Corps?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by vina »

enqyoob wrote:Hahvahd
Huh.. You sound like a hick.In real Bostonian, its HAAHVud
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

Is this finally the economic collapse?
Alexis De Tocqueville, author of Democracy in America, which was published that year, seemed to warn of this day when he wrote: "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
Good quote! Presumably, the Whitehouse had long since discovered this!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

Psychiatric group warns of surge in Greek suicides
Rise in number of crisis calls tied to country's economic crisis

--
Gee, you would think they were worse off than Indian farmers, or something
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ soosais, eh?

The '29 crash did lead to lotsa brokers and the like to crash into the pavement below from up high in their wall st towers. That gen still had shame and a reputation to defend (not to mention no gubmint bailout for the impossible positions they'd built up with borrowed money). Times have since changed and the onset of the second (potentially great) depression has produced zero outpourings of guilt among the wall st piety. Heck there haven't even been prosecutions of the threat of jail for these masters of the universe anymore.

Reminds me of this cute pic from sept 2008 taken from in front of the NYSE....lonely forlorn voice indeed.
Image
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

enqyoob wrote:Yeah, yeah, don't v all know it! All those war veterans for instance, what right do they have to sponge off the Tea Partyists? Pah! Whose fault is it that their daddies were too poor and stupid to send them to Hahvahd Business School instead of their having to go join the Marine Corps?
Ripping off one guy to pay another is the cause not the cure. Kind of like that other 'industry' with their "give us a bailout or the system will crash". If the vetrans are poor, its only because too much money is being confiscated from the people through taxation to pay the lavish salaries, pensions and other perks of unionized goons among other things.

Can't speak about war vetrans but I do know teachers, firefighters, police and numerous other public sector unions are major ripoffs. The teachers and police unions for example have a nice racket going.

-----
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-0 ... ate1-.html

Jan. 27 (Bloomberg) -- The California State Teachers Retirement System, the second biggest U.S. public pension, will need to ask taxpayers for more money after investment losses left it underfunded by $42.6 billion.

-----
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... -mobs.html

Albany Police Officers Union President Chris Mesley says that, regardless of the faltering economy, a no-raise new contract is unacceptable.

"I'm not running a popularity contest here," Mesley said. "If I'm the bad guy to the average citizen . . . and their taxes have go up to cover my raise, I'm very sorry about that, but I have to look out for myself and my membership." Mesley added: "As the president of the local, I will not accept 'zeroes.' If that means . . . ticking off some taxpayers, then so be it."
Last edited by Neshant on 15 Aug 2010 15:08, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Singha »

americans have a high police:citizen ratio. perhaps downsizing and cost rationalizing it down to indian levels is the way forward.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by vina »

Spoke with my parents today. Dad was pretty excited, sort of like a kid who was given a candy for free. Evidently, Dr Artiste's promise of a TV for every family in TN was fulfilled in the ward they live in and a ELCOT 14" TV with 200 channels and a remote was given.

Think of the irony of it all. We have folks dying from hunger in many parts of the country. The TVs go on and on about grains rotting and Messers Karat & Co slam the govt for insuring food security for "rats and not the people of India" and say that the PDS system simply doesn't exist in large swathes of the country, while in a well run state like TN where govt machinery actually works, a TV actually gets delivered to a family for free!

The bulk of the problems in the BIMARU states can be fixed and basic nutrition and health be delivered ONLY when you have a modicum of decent governance in those states (note, I dont say corruption free, by no stretch a TN or Gujarat are corruption free , far from it, but those govts are EFFECTIVE and that I think is the operative word)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ldev »

Market Compass Goes Awry When Governments Steal: Mark Gilbert
Whatever is going on in the world of finance, it isn’t capitalism or a free market. Paul Brodsky and Lee Quaintance of QB Asset Management in New York reckon markets are now at the whim of “the vagaries of the subjective central bank decision- making apparatus as a capricious pursuit posing as systematic.”

The defining feature of tyranny, they argued in a research report this week that channeled the author Christopher Hitchens, is the unpredictability of its rules -- a valid description of the current market environment.

“The path of global markets will be determined by policy makers and politicians, not by natural economic incentives or even by policy makers resetting our ‘animal spirits,’” they wrote.

Tim Price, the director of investments at PFP Group in London, says the credit crisis has destroyed “the boundaries of possibility.” Faith in credit ratings, government debt, economic Darwinism, regulation, and the enlightened self- interest of banks and bankers has vanished. As a result, “literally anything is possible,” he says.
The U.S. government bullied BP Plc into canceling its dividend for the first three quarters of this year and cajoled it into setting up a $20 billion fund to compensate victims of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill. That’s stealing from the company’s shareholders; President Barack Obama has no jurisdiction over BP’s treasury, no matter what your moral stance is on seabirds.

Moreover, it looks like the U.S. plans to tweak the rules governing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to enhance the pace of mortgage forgiveness. In other words, it will force the now government-controlled agencies to let debtors keep their houses without making all of their debt payments.

That’s stealing from Fannie and Freddie’s bondholders, whatever you think about the behavior of mortgage lenders in the go-go years. Ireland is also planning rule changes to make it harder for mortgage companies to foreclose on defaulters, according to the Irish Independent newspaper.

And in the U.K., the government is pushing commercial banks, many of which it controls as a result of various bailouts, to boost their lending. Never mind that the very arbitrariness of state intervention might be what is making entrepreneurs shy away from making fresh investments. If enforced, the government will be stealing from the banks’ other shareholders by forcing executives to make loans they otherwise wouldn’t touch, just to meet politically determined quotas.

When politicians steal from their constituents, your market compass is useless at guiding investment decisions
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Ripping off one guy to pay another is the cause not the cure.
Absolutely. When you call the police because there are robbers at your door, you'll be delighted, I am sure, to hear that the local police have joined the Tea Party. They will reason the same way:

Why should they risk THEIR lives just to help YOU? Asking the police to risk death just so someone else should go on living, is blatantly unfair.

The Tea Party type reactions are in fact the best indicators of society breaking down - a bunch of goons rationalizing that THEY don't owe anyone anything and need not play by any civilized rules "because" in their view some "fatcats" somewhere are breaking the rules and getting away with it. Same reasoning as that used by the Naxalites and the muggers of NYC.

Yugoslavia experienced the result of allowing these types to survive too long.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

^^^ Naxalites and NYC muggers have never even bothered to make any comparative evaluation of different systems. They act on impulse, and then later embrace any rationalization offered by some lefty intellectual after the fact.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

enqyoob wrote:
Ripping off one guy to pay another is the cause not the cure.
Why should they risk THEIR lives just to help YOU? Asking the police to risk death just so someone else should go on living, is blatantly unfair.
The 'pay me or you'll be sorry' racket does not work. **Anyone** can make an extortion claim.

Even I can say if you don't pay me a lavish pension, I will do a terrible job on the life-saving products I create and people will die. So pay up. Except being in the private sector, if I didn't do a proper job, I'd be fired on the spot. Perhaps even sued & jailed if someone actually got injured or died.

Nobody in the private sector has a right to a job let alone the right to extort money for doing the job he signed up for. You'd sooner get the boot than have any employer cater to such antics. If union goons want a different yardstick for themselves, there's a simple cure - privatize the public sector. There are always people who can be hired to do a proper job and nobody needs to cater to an extortion racket.

The days of unions, banking & financing goons ripping off the public is coming to an end. Nobody can support someone retiring at age 53 on 70-110% of their peak salary for life which can be 30 to 35 years - literally longer than the time they worked! It literally works out to a multi-million dollar retirement package at a time when 72% of private sector workers have no pension waiting for them at retirement.

Here are some excellent clips to educate yourself :

Part I : http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=l-CPBGQmQYo
Part II : http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=FAjdIMersv8
Part III : http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=DjaGixOzy34
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

$830 Billion in Student Loans: USA's New Mortgage Bubble

Everybody is now claiming to have been fleeced by somebody else - as if they all deserve exemption from the consequences of their own decisions. :roll:

Eventually, the rich will have to claim they were suckered into becoming rich.

"I didn't know that by becoming a professional athlete, I was going to get stuck paying for everybody! I want a bailout!" :((
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Thanks again, but many years ago I decided that thinking was superior to watching video clips on the internet to educate myself.

So let's see:
It literally works out to a multi-million dollar retirement package at a time when 72% of private sector workers have no pension waiting for them at retirement.


Wow!

And this is only in the Public Sector, unlike the pure and wholesome Private Sector?

So threatening to do a lousy job in writing software (which may be already assumed, if what I see of Modern desi software verification standards is any indication) is the same as refusing to go into a building where a crazy is pointing an AK-47 at you. or climbing a cliff at 18,000 feet into the face of terrorists? Awesome!

HOW can military types (and being a policeman in, say, Atlanta or LA is far more dangerous than being a combat soldier in Afghanistan..) demand lifelong pensions after working only for 20 years? Why don't they die early and save everyone the hassle, hey, so we all have more money left over to buy a luxury car or flat? Where is the FAIRNESS in this? I am SHOCKED by these abuses! PRIVATIZE the Military! Let Blackwater decide how we should fight wars! Let Halliburton decide what emergency calls they should respond to in urban USA! Sell the US Navy to the Somali Global Private Navy Corporation! Subscribe to Soldier of Fortune Magazine! :((

As you search for more propaganda clips from the Hilter Jugend 2010 (oops! I mean the Tea Partyists), could you also search for the term "Golden Parachutes" and the other deals that Private Sector corporate boards sign for themselves, and calculate what percentage of their career earnings these constitute?

I realize that this is all very uncomfortable, and as the bumper sticker used to say:
Vote Hitler Jugend! Its easier and so much more pleasant than thinking, and u won't have to do it more than once!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

^^^Nobody is forcing a policeman to be a policeman. If a policeman does not want to be a policeman, he can always leave his job and try his hand in the private sector. Maybe he could try being a fisherman or logger.

Jobs with the highest fatality rates are not in police or fire-fighting contrary to what you might think. They are in the private sector.

The fishing industry has the highest fatality rate (128 deaths/100k). followed by logging (120 deaths/100k), flight engineers (73 deaths/100k),structural iron and steel workers (47 deaths/100k), farmer (40 deaths/100k), recyclers (36 deaths/100k), roofers (34 deaths/100k), truck drivers (24 deaths/100k)...etc.

Hell even a taxi driver has a higher fatality rate (19/100k) than a policeman. ***There is no multi-million dollar package paid for by suckers waiting for them at retirement.*** !!!!!

There are never a shortage of candidates either. The line up to be a fire fighter was around the block and down the street when they were recruiting in some city recently. Its one of those jobs that requires no university education yet pays a king's ransom with a gold plated pensions thrown in.

I suggest the theory of a policeman or teacher's worth be tested in the market place. Privatize these public sector services and lets see if the market supports the multi-million dollar compensation packages. The market is the fastest way to discover any profession's worth so no extortion racket is necessary.

A teacher recently in NJ demanded that that the governor pay her the 'market rate'of 85,000 dollars in salary. The governor's response was simple - "you don't have to do the job if you don't want to".

As for golden parachutes, you make it sound as if all private sector workers are getting multi-million dollar pension packages. Only bullshitting CEOs, banking & financing con artists, various bailout hounds..etc are getting that. Vast majority of people working in the private sector are doing an honest job and paying for someone else's retirement. Amen!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ One can expect to see a lot more of that sentiment - tea-partier or not - amongst mango public in yumreeka.

"If they [the public union membership] think they're getting a raw deal, they can always leave the job. But why should my taxes be raised (and they will be raised, in country after county, city after city across the yooyes) to pay for their pensions?"

Both sides have good arguments on this. It won;t be easy and it certainly won't be pretty the way things are going.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

Jesse's on a tear here....
Government coverup and a 250% tax increase
Gresham's Dynamic: The least ethically inclined have an advantage in the US financial system (in which regulatory capture nullifies enforcement) driven by perverse incentives of oversized bonuses and the failure to investigate and prosecute criminal activity.
And that's what is most striking. The refusal by the authorities to indict and prosecute brazen, widespread, ongoing fraud.
As I recall the percentage of financial sector profits to corporate profits recently peaked at 41%, from a long run average of less than 16%. Granted, this is a bit theoretical because of the pervasive accounting fraud in the banks and the corporations.

I wonder what the percentage of profit, pre-bonus, is being enjoyed now?

This can be viewed as a form of a tax. If the government raised taxes from 16% to 41% what do you think the impact on the US economy would be? And yet there is little discussion of this, or the racketeering that accompanied such a festival of looting.

Yet conceptually this is what has been accomplished through the deregulation of the banks and the repeal of Glass-Steagall, and of course, regulatory capture. The financial sector acts primarily as a capital accumulation and allocation system, and secondarily to facilitate wealth transferals through pure investment and speculation, the famous school of winners and losers. I would suggest that this latter function has grown out of control like a cancer, and metastasized to drain and debilitate the better part of the political system and the non-financial economy.
AWMTA
I would suggest that this system is broken, and that there can be no sustainable recovery until it is fixed. How can confidence return when most of those in the know realize that the fraud is still in play? Who can take positions with confidence in such a corrupt environment wherein the government acts as the handmaiden to a handful of powerful Banks which engage in large scale frauds as a mainstay of their business, and with virtual impunity?
Re the bolded part, pls also see the link IDev posted above.
Stimulus that is not targeted, and especially any subsidy that passes through the Banks, is liable to this tax. It reminds me of warlords stealing charitable relief as it arrives in a Third World country before it can be distributed to the people.

But austerity is even worse, because the kinds of austerity being discussed are specifically targeting the ordinary people who have been badly used already to say the least, and not the perpetrators of one of the biggest financial frauds in the history of the world, and those wealthy few who benefited from a culture of deception which they helped to form.

This is a compounding of the suffering and injustice. If one were to set a recipe for a social and civil revolution it would fit the bill nicely. No one ever said that the pigmen are not self-destructive in their lifestyles and obsessions.
Now this is kinda controversial, keynsian perhaps but I actually happen to agree. Ireland is prime exhibit in the pointlessness of forcing austerity onto mango people without first breaking the finacial cabal and clawbacking their outsized gains.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

Well, well, well.... proof overflows that unkil khan is indeed one-eyed king of the andhaa kingdom.
Obama Wins Low Yield as Markets Aid shrinking Deficit
Bond investors seeking top-rated securities face fewer alternatives to Treasuries, allowing President Barack Obama to sell unprecedented sums of debt at ever lower rates to finance a $1.47 trillion deficit.

Shrinking credit markets help explain why some Treasury yields are at record lows even after the amount of marketable government debt outstanding increased by 21 percent from a year earlier to $8.18 trillion.

Last week, the U.S. government auctioned $34 billion of three-year notes at a yield of 0.844 percent, the lowest *ever* for that maturity.


Spending by companies and consumers has slowed as the economy has shown signs of weakening. Companies in the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index have stockpiled a record $2.3 trillion of cash and equivalents. Company borrowing slid 29 percent in the first half of the year to $528 billion amid a dearth of business investment, Bloomberg data shows.
Wow, whuddathunkit, eh??

Wait, there's more. Turns out it ain't merely the gubmint reaping the chaandi here. Blue chip corpos, somewhat sound municipalities etc are also in on the harvest.
The government isn’t the only one getting a good deal. Armonk, New York-based International Business Machines Corp., the world’s biggest computer services provider, sold $1.5 billion of three-year notes on Aug. 2 with a coupon of 1 percent, the lowest of the more than 3,400 securities in the Barclays Capital U.S. Corporate Index of investment-grade company debt.

Portland, Oregon, sold about $408 million in sewer-system revenue debt on Aug. 11, with utility bond yields at the lowest level on record. Yields on 10-year, AA rated tax-exempts backed by utility revenue stood at 3.02 percent on Aug. 10, according to Bloomberg Fair Market Value data. That’s the lowest since the index was created in November 1993.
Jolly times are here again! No?
No.
A big reason yields have crashed is because there's nothing else out there that could provide decent yield at acceptable risk. Nothing. Or so says Mr market only. Only.
As one wise sage in the same article remarks...
“We are in unchartered territory,” said [William Larkin, a fixed-income money manager in Salem, Massachusetts at Cabot Money Management]. “We are pushing and pulling levers that we don’t understand the full implications.”
And let's hope for all our sakes we have a soft landing. Else TSP will become the least of our daily worries.
Jai Ho.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

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Pranav
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Pranav »

Paging Neshant and Enqoob:

RM-ji requests you to contact him at [email protected] or 98251-27780.

regards.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Christopher Sidor »

This is an interesting article from the hindu business line newspaper.
Rebalancing of growth is an important issue that policymakers in Asia are contending with, since an export-driven growth strategy has served the region well. But rather than the intent, it appears that the structural issues are more difficult to overcome. The question facing policymakers is how they can move from ‘Factory Asia' to ‘Consumer Asia'.
Worth reading. It seems that the shifting from an export-oriented asia to a more balanced consumption-cum-export-oriented asia is not that easy. Without that happening the world economy will still have to rely on countries of north atlantic region to be the world's consumer. Moreover why should east-asian economies open their domestic markets for the europeans and americans companies. They would like their own domestic companies to take advantage of their markets.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

‘Factory Asia' to ‘Consumer Asia'.
This is exactly what I was saying, to defeat the deflation creeping in due to sparse consumption in the developed countries (USA and EU) we need to develop consumtion internally (with in India) to sustain growth. The way to do is export services and software and manufacture for Indian consumer who have earned by way of rendering services and (non brick and mortor) products.

The West has to cut costs for services the desh has to grow through more consumption of food and products (tangible)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by shyamd »

Was just reading the Fortune magazine this week. Has anyone noticed the fiscal situation of state govt's!! Most are broke and one analyst reckons there will be 1million to 2 million layoffs in the coming years from state govts. Similar situation of UKstan I suppose which has outlined plans to axe 500,000 govt jobs.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ramana »

ShivaS, Please check archie e-mail.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

shyamd wrote:Was just reading the Fortune magazine this week. Has anyone noticed the fiscal situation of state govt's!! Most are broke and one analyst reckons there will be 1million to 2 million layoffs in the coming years from state govts. Similar situation of UKstan I suppose which has outlined plans to axe 500,000 govt jobs.
Well, saar, if its any consolation, yours truly has been howling himself morose about it. Only.

Not that it'll matter one iota when rubber meets road.

Still, there's more juice in this story and plenty of lessons for the ROW here.

See, it will be instructive to observe and learn and calibrate our understanding of how democracies will deal with very difficult dilemmas, with gut wrenching compromises, a forced march to less-consumption and more savings and living-within-means and with broadly lower standards of living for almost everybody's children.

It will be instructive to see what moral, political, intellectual, rhetorical and propaganda tools are developed to cope with the crisis and their social after-effects.

Very broadly, that is (or ought to be) the aim of this thread going forward. IMHO, of course.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

ramana done
SwamyG
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

Read somewhere, was it @ BRF, how it is nothing but transfer of wealth from Government to Educational Institutions (a.k.a Corporations). Students are the conduit.
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ramana »

SwamyG, Yes. Check the private Job training utys like Phoenix and Kaplan. Newsweek owners cash cow is Kaplan trg uty.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
I never understood why Barnes and Nobles kind of stores never carried Text books. I always had to buy them from Amazon, which I did not mind as I own AMZN shares :-))

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 ... 09703.html
Many education stocks kept sliding Tuesday on data from the U.S. Department of Education that showed students are paying back loans at surprisingly low rates. Strayer Education Inc. (STRA, $156.23, -$7.03, -4.31%) was among the top decliners. Meanwhile, Apollo Group Inc. (APOL, $40.23, -$0.75, -1.83%) and Bridgepoint Education Inc. (BPI, $13.49, -$1.40, -9.40%), which posted better-than-expected rates, lost some of Monday's gains.
Low Loan Repayment Is Seen at For-Profit Schools

Sallie Mae Plans to Issue $760.4 Million of Bonds Backed by Student Loans
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

No, I didn't want to be right about this but moi fears are coming true only.

The 'Austerity scam' is designed only to further enrich the same charmed elite circle of banksters, fraudsters and tricksters that pillaged the economy at the expense of mango people. 'Austerity' should follow prosecutions and clawback of fin sector loot, first and foremost.

Also, am increasingly drawn to german english news and stories media. Much nicer, balanced, pertinent, detailed, non-frivolous, agenda-laden and psy-opsish than the ungli-saxon ones.

Tensions Rise in Greece as Austerity Measures Backfire (Speigel online)
The austerity measures that were supposed to fix Greece's problems are dragging down the country's economy. Stores are closing, tax revenues are falling and unemployment has hit an unbelievable *70 percent* in some places. Frustrated workers are threatening to strike back.

This dire prognosis comes even despite Athens' massive efforts to sort out the country's finances. The government's draconian austerity measures have managed to reduce the country's budget deficit by an almost unbelievable 39.7 percent, after previous governments had squandered tax money and falsified statistics for years. The measures have reduced government spending by a total of 10 percent, 4.5 percent more than the EU and International Monetary Fund (IMF) had required.
Bravo. However I fear they have no good options at this point. The Ireland vs Iceland way is instructive here. I root for the Icelandic way.

IMO, the way out for greece, the least worst of their options, is simply to default, leave the euro and swim it out on their own, like Iceland did, for the next few yrs that they will be shut out of world capital mkts. aam public will suffer anyway - better to suffer in the way of freedom than slaving away to repay phoren bondholders who deserve to lose money on their bad investments in the first place.
The problem is that the austerity measures have in the meantime affected every aspect of the country's economy. Purchasing power is dropping, consumption is taking a nosedive and the number of bankruptcies and unemployed are on the rise.
{classic deflationary (death) spiral symptoms}
The country's gross domestic product shrank by 1.5 percent in the second quarter of this year.
{OK, that's -6% annualized. And these are merely the official stats from a gubmint with every incentive to skew the numbers reported towards positive territory}
Tax revenue, desperately needed in order to consolidate the national finances, has dropped off. A mixture of fear, hopelessness and anger is brewing in Greek society.
A quasi-violent reshaping of labor contracts is coming. Halcyon days of security and assured raises are over, seems like.
Unemployment in the city [the shipbuilding district of Perama] hovers between 60 and 70 percent, according to a study conducted by the University of Piraeus. While 77 percent of Greek shipping companies indicate they are satisfied with the quality of work done in Perama, nearly 50 percent still send their ships to be repaired in Turkey, Korea or China. Costs are too high in Greece, they say. The country, they argue, has too much bureaucracy and too many strikes, with labor disputes often delaying delivery times.

Barely any of the country's industries can keep up with international competition in terms of productivity,
and experts expect the country's gross domestic product to fall by 4 percent over the course of the entire year. Germany, by way of comparison, is hoping for growth of up to 3 percent.
...
A short jaunt through Athens' shopping streets reveals the scale of the decline. Fully a quarter of the store windows on Stadiou Street bear red signs reading "Enoikiazetai" -- for rent. The National Confederation of Hellenic Commerce (ESEE) calculates that 17 percent of all shops in Athens have had to file for bankruptcy.
...
Menelaos Givalos, a professor of political science at Athens University, has appeared on television, warning viewers that the worst times are still to come. He predicts a large wave of layoffs starting in September, with "extreme social consequences."

"Everything is getting more expensive, I'm hardly earning any money, and then I'm supposed to pay more taxes to help save the country? How is that supposed to work?" asks Nikos Meletis, the shipbuilder. He predicts the situation will only become more heated. "Things are starting to simmer here," he says. "And at some point they're going to explode."
Well, okay, take the soundbites with some salt - greek theatrics perhaps. But still, the impact is clear.
Bottomline:
The entire country is in the grip of a depression. Everything seems to be going downhill. The spiral is continuing unabated, and there is no clear way out.
The worse part, however, is the fact that hardly anyone still hopes that things will improve one day.
The despair in the bolded part is the hardest hitter of all. IMO.

Mish's thoughts are pertinent:
Inquiring minds just might be asking "How long can Greece hold on?"

I do not have the answer to that, besides it's not the important question. A far more worrisome question is "When does similar strife spread to Spain, Portugal, and perhaps even Italy?"

Part of the blame for this goes to the bailout plan itself. France and to a lesser extent Germany would not take haircuts on Greek debt. Aid to Greece by the IMF and European banks simply threw good money after bad.

The problem did not go away. Instead, terms of the bailout made the situation worse.
Sanjay M
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

There will be brinksmanship on both sides before long.

The Greeks will try to renegotiate and get the Germans and French to take more of a hit. The Germans and French will continue to hold the Greeks to their word.
svinayak
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by svinayak »

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/opini ... ef=general
Keeping up with Germany won’t be easy. A decade ago Germany was the “sick man of Europe.” No more. The Germans pulled together. Labor gave up wage hikes and allowed businesses to improve competitiveness and worker flexibility, while the government subsidized firms to keep skilled workers on the job in the downturn. Germany is now on the rise, but also not free of structural challenges. Its growth depends on exports to China and it is the biggest financier of Greece. Still, “Germany is no longer the country with the oldest students and youngest retirees,” said Kornblum.
China is still a factor in the global economy of top 10 countries
ShivaS
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

Greeks are the bonded labor of the Euro strong nations (esp. Germans).
Greek are not aliens to thrive in ruins! They can count on their marbles
ShivaS
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

I had earlier said that there will be inflation in Germany and deflation in Greece.
If only Greece has domestic production ramped up for doemstic consumption ( food & Basic needs just the Toga & Orektiko) do it so in barter , till such time that they decouple from Euro and devalue their currency new currency or cupons(GD Greek Dinar{o} ) vis a vis Euro.
They have a chance of rising like a phoenix.
They have to go to barter system internally till services and product be paid in local denomination.
Singha
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Singha »

agreed that many drastic measures could be taken up.

but most killing of all is the loss of H&D in moving from a member of the 'rich countries' to merely middle income and struggling at that.
that H&D issue alone paralyzes many essential decisions, like a suit clad guy in a Merc who wonders if he should get out and fight with a couple of robbers looting a little old lady on the road. he knows its the right thing to do, but log-kya-kahenge seeing him roll in the gutter with the two thieves? 8)
Tanaji
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Tanaji »

What will be interesting to watch is how UK fares. The Con-Lib Dem coalition seems to be taking tough steps so far. I wonder how much these will affect the situation
shyamd
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by shyamd »

Hari Seldon wrote: Well, saar, if its any consolation, yours truly has been howling himself morose about it. Only.

Not that it'll matter one iota when rubber meets road.

Still, there's more juice in this story and plenty of lessons for the ROW here.

See, it will be instructive to observe and learn and calibrate our understanding of how democracies will deal with very difficult dilemmas, with gut wrenching compromises, a forced march to less-consumption and more savings and living-within-means and with broadly lower standards of living for almost everybody's children.

It will be instructive to see what moral, political, intellectual, rhetorical and propaganda tools are developed to cope with the crisis and their social after-effects.

Very broadly, that is (or ought to be) the aim of this thread going forward. IMHO, of course.
Thanks for the reply. Indeed, but these cuts have not hit anyone yet. All the leaders have only spoken about cutting expenditures etc. Not many have actually followed through with it.I know the budget was just announced in the UK, but some of the cuts arent going to take place immediately. Take Germany for example, their cuts arent going to come through until 2013 or something. France hasn't announced anything yet despite the fact that they are in a worse state (Its only a matter of time before something breaks here). Spain is in the doldrums - unemployment is 18% already. I think yesterday the govt said they are going to use public sector pensions to buy bonds - so if anything happens to Spanish soverign debt then pensions will take a HUGE hit. Europe is in a very bad position.

My feelings on India - Are we heading towards a real estate bubble? - land prices are just doubling in the matter of 6 months in some cases. People are actually paying for land without taking loans to fund their property investments (Surely this should be enough to say that this isn't a bubble). A little worried. Cost of living in cities are so high. Governmund oppicers say they don't save anything. I'll be in desh for a few weeks hopefully, so lets see how things are on the ground.
enqyoob
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Yesterday I was looking at a flat under construction in urban Malloostan aka Maadhanistan - 2BR/2BA, maybe 1600 sq ft at Rs 50 lakh bare (most amenities like ac and lights will have to be bought extra). That is at least as expensive as downtown ATL, with quality comparison doubtful. Of course, one cannot bring ATL into desh so as they say, its all Location, Location, Location. But one has to wonder...

How sustainable are these values?
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