Managing Pakistan's failure

[Prem]

By 2022 , We will for sure cover the military and economic end to switch from passive mode to active mode in achieving our national objectives . 75 year cycle 1947+75=2022 turns another page of destiny in South Asia.The 16Dec was gift of Gen Arora to celebrate my arrival in this world. Abhi time is not ripe because

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etnAlW9m ... re=related
Watch after 7minute

[RajeshA]

A post on PTH

Code: Select all

http://pakteahouse.net/2012/01/24/an-australian-takes-issue-over-skewed-article-on-pakistan-by-time-magazine/comment-page-2/#comment-81190

I personally think that placing such emphasis on “Pakistan” as you do at least partially defocalizes main issues. Problems lie in sets of specific ideas, ideologies, and with their defenders.
Take for example the idea that terrorizing a group of humans is a good thing. Is there something particularly Pakistani about it? Probably not. But there is this well-established idea that an extra-terrestrial creature out there somewhere takes pure delight in terrorizing the hearts of those humans who do not believe in it or who do not submit to its whims – now that is a broad fact not limited to Pakistan alone. Those who do submit to this creature, some of the more enthusiastic ones, legitimately delight in and draw pride from terrorizing the hearts of those who don’t submit.
I would personally place greater focus on that ideology. If and to the extent Pakistan is an epiphenomenon, subservient of that ideology, it will be guided by it and will enable it, but in itself, Pakistan is not such an interesting identity. Nothing more than say any other nation. By understanding ideology one can understand Pakistan, not vice versa.

Pakistan is important to the future of that ideology. In Pakistan the ideology is going into a chain reaction. Pakistan is ground zero for the ideology. Pakis always considered their country simply a laboratory of Islam. Well the results are due soon.

Ideological disarmament can only take place if the adherents of the ideology realize the consequences. Somalia was another experiment. I did not quite reach critical mass, simply because there was not enough fuel. In Pakistan, there is no dearth of fuel. In fact each year they are enriching more fuel, in maternity wards and madrassas.

India simply has to watch out for the impact of the blast and try to shield herself.

[RajeshA]

Continuing from TIRP Thread

The essential similarities between Western feudalism (transplanted to colonized countries in the colonial era) and Islamic "Kabila" imply that it is not only the "West" which has been a colonial entity as far as societies like ours are concerned... Islam itself is equally a foreign colonialist entity in our subcontinent, as fundamentally alien and predatory to our land, our culture and our way of life as the British or Portuguese or Dutch ever were. The atavistic howls issuing from their minarets five times a day are, indeed, cries of triumph and domination in a foreign language... the language of the colonizer shouting down the colonized.

Ramana has written extensively on the "Kabila" model... it roughly translates to "government as armed camp." Essentially there is a sultan who, with his generals and their troops, constitutes the ultimate fount of power in the political hierarchy. This is unwaveringly typical of the manner in which various political groups and dynasties have consolidated power in West and Central Asia, and North Africa, since the very advent of Islam.

The "Kabila" worked very well in the lands where Islam originated, and where it spread in the early centuries of its expansion. Why? Because the lands themselves were amenable to being governed in this form. In the deserts of West Asia, the arid mountains of Persia and the steppes to the North, the circumstances of nature favour a form of political dominance which relies on armament, maneuverability and mobility. This is because resources are scarce and concentrated in a few areas... an oasis here, a valley there. With a strong group of highly mobile armed men on horseback, you can easily forge an empire in such places. All you have to do is seize control of the few well-defined supply centers, the market centers (city states) and the trade routes between them. Most of the land is junk anyway. Once you're able to do this, and especially to destroy any civilizational affinity to pre-Islamic forms in the market centers (hence the Islamic obsession with temple breaking and idol smashing) you have, effectively, an empire. It doesn't matter if the thousands of useless square miles in between are physically under your domination or not; as long as you have no challengers in these particular small foci of power, you're an unchallenged monarch.

"Kabila" differs from European feudalism because of the emphasis on mobility... horsemen and artillery could be moved to engage a challenger in very short order. A necessary corollary of the Kabila model is un-rootedness. If you have to move fast you cannot afford to be tied down. Therefore, you do not invest in the land or the people, you see them only as objects to be controlled and squeezed for every drop of utility against the hard anvil of history. You position mullahs in population centers to be your spies, propagandists and social monitors... weeding out unorthodoxy and rebellion at the stage of ideation before it becomes necessary to smack down an armed rebellion. But ultimately you, and your apparatus of mullahs, constitute an extraordinarily parasitic, locust-like and virulent form of colonialism. This is something that Western studies of post-colonialism (with their essentially Euro-centric historiography) entirely ignore... they see the Islamic virus as something that was indigenous somehow to the lands they conquered. They do not realize that it was merely a more rapacious and less invested form of colonial imperialism.

Indeed, the more invested Muslim rulers became in their territories, the less "Islamic" they became, of necessity taking on the administrative, social and traditional trappings of pre-Islamic statehood. This made them vulnerable to "purer", mobile and less-invested Islamic conquerors. Hence the Delhi sultanate was prime fodder for Timur and Babar... Baghdad for the Mongols... and Mughal Delhi, again, for Nadir Shah. In each case the less-civilized, more predatory and more essentially savage Kabila prevailed over the more "settled" and "urbanized" Muslim state. When you do not carry the baggage of civilization or of feeling responsibility for the people you rule, you have much more maneuverability and ruthlessness at your disposal. Taking advantage of the Kabila's inherent strengths, the West was able to lead roving bands of armed Arabs in a devastatingly effective rebellion against the settled Ottomans during the 1st World War.

Why do I bring all this up with relevance to Pakistan?

As I said before... the "Kabila" system worked very well to dominate places where resources were scarce and concentrated in well-defined locations. However, it never worked quite as well in India.

That is because our Bharatvarsha is quite unlike those lands where Islam originated and expanded in the early centuries of its being. In Bharatvarsha, the land is almost never inhospitable or forbidding. In Arabia, a band of people displaced from an oasis had two choices: submit to the peaceful orthodoxy of a triumphant Muslim conqueror, or go out into the desert and die. In India, not so. A displaced people had only to go fifty or a hundred or two hundred kilometres in any direction... and mother Bharat in her generous embrace would provide fertile lands, rich orchards, abundant and plentiful fields. How many generations and what huge extents of such flights were supported by the bounty of Bharatvarsha become apparent if you study the migration of the Saraswats, originally from Kashmir... one branch traveled from there south of the Vindhyas, to Goa, and then again uprooted themselves in the face of Portuguese onslaught and proceeded to what is Dakshin Kannada in Karnataka today.

This had two effects: first, it made Indians in general indifferent to the fact of an Islamic conquest. If they took away our old fields and seized our city... well, we would just move over a little bit and build a new city, cultivate new fields. Our Gods and families are safe, let the Turk or Afghan have the old land, because there is enough for everybody if we simply adjust our location a little bit: this was how our forefathers dealt with Islamic expansion.

The second effect, of course, is that Hindu society survived, largely unscathed, as an essentially Indian identity. In Mesopotamia or Egypt, the Muslim idol-smashers and temple-breakers could effectively carry out cultural genocide because their targets were all in one place and immobile... where could you build another Baghdad or Luxor? The inheritors of the old culture had no choice but to surrender before the savagery of Islam's harbingers, and participate willingly in the extinction of their pre-Islamic cultural identities, if they wished to survive at all. In India, we would take our Gods, our families and our few possessions and head out a few more miles into the vast green hinterland and endless bounty of Bharat-mata, who would provide lovingly for us to begin our lives over again as Hindus.

This is essentially why we were saved from being extinguished by the onslaught of Islamic colonialism... Bharatvarsha herself sheltered her children and empowered them to preserve their way of life.

Now what you have in Pakistan today is the continuance of the Kabila system. The West realized soon enough that without the depredations of Islamic colonialism that denuded the civilizational wealth of the East for nearly ten centuries, sapping the power of the old Asiatic states and erasing their very identities... without this, the West would have had a much harder time pursuing their own colonial expansions. In fact, Islamic colonialism prepares the ground for Western colonialism... a fact that remains as true today as it was before the Battle of Plassey. Hence, everyone from Olaf Caroe to Zbignew Brzezinski sees a utility for the West in maintaining Islamic Kabilas even when the armies and viceroys of the West have gone home. The Kabilas will never construct a state of sufficient power to threaten the West; but they will keep Asia weak for the day that the West might want to return, in one form or another.

THIS is why the West was so determined to see a Pakistan constructed out of a large portion of Bharatvarsha. It is also why the West has been careful to destroy any alternative sense of nationhood or state-based form of governance in the Muslim world, other than Kabila. It is why the Arab nationalists of Ba'ath Egypt (Nasser) and Iraq (Saddam) had to be deposed, and the last scion of Ba'athism, Syria's Assad, is being systematically marked for elimination today. This is the reason why Gaddaffi in Libya was ousted, and why Iran is now at the head of the list of Western targets. Meanwhile the Kabila-state of Saudi Arabia is raised to paramountcy; while in smaller GCC nations... which are essentially city-states or market-centers like the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain... the US itself has taken on the role of Kabila.

In Pakistan that role has been given to the Kabila known as the Pakistan Army. However, let's remember... the land which the Pakistan Army Kabila seeks to dominate is not an arid expanse with tightly localized resource concentrations, as in the territories where the Kabila model has a natural advantage. No, the land of Pakistan is the land of Bharatvarsha... all-embracing and hospitable. It is much harder for a Kabila to control and dominate this "Pakistan" than a Persia or an Iraq.

Meanwhile, to the northwest of Pakistan is Afghanistan... a prime Kabila land, where a mobile and savage army unencumbered by investment in the people can always prevail over the forces of a more settled kingdom.

What happened over the last ten years is instructive. The Kabila (Pakistan Army) deputed by the West to control and enervate Western Bharatvarsha for colonial exploitation, has failed in its task. It has succumbed to the temptations of the land it occupies... Bharatvarsha... and become more "settled" than a Kabila has any right to be. It has become invested in private enterprise, legitimate ones like textiles and agriculture as well as illegal ones such as heroin supply. The Pakistan Army remains a true Kabila in that it still does not give a damn for the people in its charge; but it has become "softer" in the style of the Lodhi who was overwhelmed by Babar, or the Abbasid Caliph who was smashed by Genghis Khan. To compensate for its softness, the Pakistan Army has overemphasized the role traditionally played by Mullahs in the Kabila system, and set up a huge, hypertrophied apparatus of highly empowered political agents to subdue the population in the name of Islam... including all our favourite Tanzeems.

The big mistake that the Soft Kabila of the Pakistan Army made was to create another Kabila... the Taliban... in an attempt to colonize and subdue the people of Afghanistan. Taliban Kabila, being a classic, mobile, hard Kabila, was able to gain control over the prime Kabila-land of Afghanistan in record time back in 1996. However, with the force of historic inevitability... they have utterly lost regard and affinity for the soft, settled Kabila of the TSPA. They see no reason why they should take orders from this decadent, less-pure Sultanate; they have enjoyed repeated military successes over the TSPA over the past ten years; and worst of all, they have seen the TSPA do the bidding of the Kaffir by comfortably abetting the slaughter of Momin perpetuated by the Americans since 2001.

As a result, not only the Taliban, but many sections of the Kabila-apparatchik mullahs (who would ordinarily remain loyal to a strong, hard-Kabila) have turned against the soft and decadent Kabila of the TSPA.

Perhaps the most curious thing is how the TSPA and the Paki elite have responded to this state of affairs. Being themselves of Bharatvarsha... they have begun to do the classic Hindoo thing! "Fine", they say, "let the fundoos have FATA/KP, after all we have much more productive land".... "fine, let them have a presence in Karachi/Quetta/Peshawar, not a blade of grass grows there"... "fine, let them expand into southern Punjab, after all we should keep them close so we can keep an eye on them." Rationalization after rationalization is articulated by these Pakis while their circle of influence shrinks; so far will our bounteous mother Bharat let them retreat into the welcoming folds of her sari that they blindfold themselves ever more tightly with her pallu and convince themselves that all is well.

Rudradev ji,
Excellent piece!

Basically your piece also throws light on how to push back the Islamic occupation of Western Bharat! At a disadvantage is the side which tries to settle down and build their societies. The "Kabila" is mobile, doesn't care much about consolidation of land but keeps its focus on securing key centers from their adversaries, usually by making control of those centers untenable for the opponent. The work is distributed between the Ghazi and the Mullah! The Ghazi breaks the hold of the opponent on a key population center whereas the Mullah under the premise of diplomatic, nay religious immunity incites the local population against the adversary! The Mullah is the veritable intelligence, subversion and propaganda arm of the "Kabila"!

NATO could not win in Afghanistan, simply because NATO could never purge the various population centers of the various subversion arms of the Taliban which operated under the guise of freedom of religion! And the Ghazis were not trying to hold on to any population centers because they already had kept control of these centers through their Mullahs! They were free to conduct a guerrilla war, attack and retreat!

Secondly the second reason for their mobility is because they do not need to fear for the safety of their families. The code of war of civilized countries do not include any retaliation against the family and kin of the "Kabila" soldiers, a code they themselves do not need to observe!

The "Kabila" would be forced to occupy and hold a strategic population center only if its intelligence, subversion and propaganda assets, the Mullahs, are packed up and thrown out or their families are threatened! When the "Kabila" try to hold a population center, then they become vulnerable to the same tactics they use! They become an immovable target!

[bahdada]

India will become a pole by taking the Pak by the horn and the process of fixing it

How is that possible with their ~200million islamotards and our own subset of 5th columnists? Not to mention the Islmaobongs who creep into our society by the thousands daily?

[Agnimitra]

The "Kabila" worked very well in the lands where Islam originated, and where it spread in the early centuries of its expansion. Why? Because the lands themselves were amenable to being governed in this form. In the deserts of West Asia, the arid mountains of Persia and the steppes to the North, the circumstances of nature favour a form of political dominance which relies on armament, maneuverability and mobility. This is because resources are scarce and concentrated in a few areas... an oasis here, a valley there. With a strong group of highly mobile armed men on horseback, you can easily forge an empire in such places. All you have to do is seize control of the few well-defined supply centers, the market centers (city states) and the trade routes between them. Most of the land is junk anyway. Once you're able to do this, and especially to destroy any civilizational affinity to pre-Islamic forms in the market centers (hence the Islamic obsession with temple breaking and idol smashing) you have, effectively, an empire. It doesn't matter if the thousands of useless square miles in between are physically under your domination or not; as long as you have no challengers in these particular small foci of power, you're an unchallenged monarch.

Rudradev ji, loved your post! However, consider some changes in the "cosmological" scale of earthling civilization today...

The era of Islamism was the era in which the armed, mobile, rapacious and rootless semi-nomadic hordes prospered at the cost of the old settled civilizations. The Arab, Turk, Mongol, certain African tribes, etc. were the parasitic beneficiaries, whereas Persia, Egypt, India, Byzantium were the host. These older settled civilizations were the sacrificial lambs that allowed these barbarous races to be brought into the light of civilization. In many cases they admittedly made great cultural progress, e.g. Persianized and Hellenized Arabs, Mughal India, Ottoman Turkey. So that's a positive view of the last 1200 years of history, where the old order paid the price to bring the raw ones out of the darkness into the light. Now that that's done, the aspirations and inclinations of the majority of Arabs, Turks, Mongols, etc are different from their ancestors. Only in some really screwed up corners like Afghanistan does one still find the old Qabila meme in full blossom. For that matter, the Western Roman state was the host on which the modern West European barbarian tribes fed and civilized themselves as feudal overlords.

One reason for that is that technology has shortened the vast geographical and cultural spaces and inhospitable distances that the Qabila relies on for its cultural and logistical seige. Today it takes an extraordinarily violent strain of prolonged war and destruction to sustain that meme -- even in a place like Afghanistan or Somalia. IOW, the historical dice are loaded against the Qabila meme in this age.

How much more war can the US engage in in the Mid East? Its beginning to affect their own economy, their own society. Unless one assumes that the Western elites aren't rooted or caring about their own populations and countries, its not a sustainable method of dominating Asia.

[ramana]

Carl, Its in TSP the Kabila meme is strong. Afghansitan is paying the price for that.

[ramana]

Newsinsight.net article

LoC as border
Embracing this would work to Pakistan's long-term advantage, says N.V.Subramanian.

6 February 2012: Pakistan's prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has said that the Kashmir issue has to be resolved through diplomacy and dialogue. He says Pakistan cannot afford to fight another war with India in this century.

Gilani's statement made on a so-called "Kashmir Solidarity Day" which is a public holiday in Pakistan is unexceptionable. Pakistan's anti-India military may not readily accept the logic and perspicacity of what the PM has said. But war can never be a solution.

By keeping Kashmir at the core of its disputes with India, Pakistan has warped itself since its independence. From its founder, M.A.Jinnah, down, every one of its principal leaders have sought a military solution to the Kashmir problem, hurting Pakistan in the process.

Because of the profound accent on gaining Kashmir by force, the Pakistan military and particularly its army was privileged. This privilege the army took as right, grabbed power, and reduced the politicians to second-class status. The consequent militarization of Pakistan lead, among other things, to the genocide in East Pakistan and the creation of Bangladesh.

Pakistan's nuke programme also came in consequence of this militarization. It is hardly surprising that the military controls Pakistani nukes and the entire weapons' production programme with no civilian oversight. Nowhere in the world is it so. Militarization spurred the easy location and operationalization of jihad and jihadis in Pakistan first against Afghanistan in the late 1970s and in Jammu and Kashmir in the late 1980s with disastrous blowbacks for Pakistan.

This obsession with Kashmir and the consequent militarization and jihadization of Pakistan has lagged the country way behind India. India is not one of those powers that gloats at this. But you cannot prevent a country from committing hara-kiri time and again.

For example, what is the point of commemorating "Kashmir Solidarity Day" year after year, making it a public holiday, observing it in mosques, publicizing it by way of human chains, and poisoning schoolchildren with it? If wars and Pakistani terrorism have not separated J and K from India, nothing will.

No Indian government has the mandate to alter or modify the boundaries of the country. There can be no map-making on Jammu and Kashmir, which is inalienably Indian. There is an Indian parliamentary resolution that claims Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir as well. So the longer Pakistan remains tied to its Kashmir obsession, the harder it will be to purge the military from politics, and it will keep the country stunted and abnormal.

The Palestinians lost by spurning the state that was given to them alongside the creation of Israel. Conversely, Kemal Ataturk in the course of rebuilding Turkey befriended neighbours like Russia. Until Pakistan ceases meddling in Afghanistan, withdraws its terrorist forces from India and pro-actively pursues peace in South Asia, it is condemned to destruction.

Perhaps all this is bitter medicine that Pakistanis cannot readily swallow. But there is no other option. Pakistan cannot hope to strengthen its democracy by seeding revanchist hatred in generation after generation. All those who matter in Pakistan know Kashmir is a lost cause. Pakistan is far from being the ideal state anyone would want to join. Unless Pakistan begins a long-overdue process of self-correction, it is doomed.

The Asif Ali Zardari-Geelani dispensation is involved in some corrective exercise. By being bold, they prevented a military coup. Pakistan's judiciary is opposed to deposing democracy. Broken ties with the United States have brought the state to near-bankruptcy. This is as good a time as any to pursue democratic reforms.

A key component of that is to remove Kashmir from the national agenda. Only the ruling alliance cannot do it. All political parties have to cooperate. Kashmir should not be the basis of competitive politics. To that end, the so-named "Kashmir Solidarity Day" should no more be observed.

Yousuf Gilani correctly says the Kashmir issue should be resolved through dialogue and diplomacy. A solution already exists, which (the late) Z.A.Bhutto had accepted in principle in 1972, which is to convert the Line of Control into an international border. If this gains national consensus, it would be Pakistan's doughtiest democratic accomplishment.

[Prem]

http://awesternheart.blogspot.com/2012/ ... istan.html
The steady decline of Pakistan

For 65 years Pakistanis have been conducting one of modern history’s great experiments: Can a nation conceived as Islamic be free and democratic-- the vision of Pakistan’s founding father, Muhammad Ali Jinnah? Or will Pakistan’s identity be defined by “forces that want us to live in fear—fear of external and internal enemies."The words quoted above were spoken by Husain Haqqani to the Wall Street Journal’s Mira Sethi. Until November, Haqqani was Pakistan's ambassador to Washington where he was a popular figure, a proud Pakistani patriot and a liberal-democratic Muslim intellectual tirelessly making the case that Pakistan should be seen as an important ally deserving of respect, moral support and material assistance.When I was last in Pakistan, two years ago, on a visit sponsored by the State Department, the U.S. Congress had just approved – thanks in large measure to Haqqani’s efforts – a $7.5 billion aid package. To my shock, this elicited little gratitude and much grumbling. Why? Because American envoys were to ensure that American taxpayer dollars would be spent to alleviate poverty and fight terrorists -- not for other purposes. People were angry with Haqqani for having accepted such “conditionality.”I recall the U.S. ambassador getting grilled on a Pakistani television program and sounding apologetic. I told anyone who asked – and some who didn’t --- that aid is not an entitlement; that we Americans have every right to specify how our money should be spent; that Haqqani was correct not to complain about such commonsensical restrictions; and that if other Pakistanis disagree they can tear up our checks. No hard feelings....During my last visit, however, Pakistan was different. Over the course of a single week, four terrorist attacks were carried out -- one of them targeting the Pakistani equivalent of the Pentagon where Taliban insurgents, armed with automatic weapons, grenades, and rocket launchers, fought for 22 hours. I expected such violence to outrage Pakistanis – to make them implacable foes of terrorism and the ideologies that drive it. But that was not necessarily the case.
A too-common view: The Taliban that attacks Pakistanis should be condemned but the Taliban that attacks Americans may be condoned. America, after all, had wronged Afghanistan by abandoning it after the Soviet defeat, and then had wronged it a second time by returning. The self-contradiction in these indictments generally went unrecognized.

[Agnimitra]

Carl, Its in TSP the Kabila meme is strong. Afghansitan is paying the price for that.

Ramana ji, yes, this is also Western-funded garrison culture at work. TSP is able to maintain and nurture the qabila meme because of the violence of partition and all the historical violence that has gone before. The public there is given the feeling of being threatened by India all the time. In addition, they are told gory tales of killing and rape by India's 700 million soldiers stationed in Kashmir, whose people are supposed to be one with TSP in body, mind and soul. So this constant feeling of war and violence is needed to keep the qabila meme alive, whether in TSP or Afghanistan.

In order to perpetuate war, the West is going to have to keep pumping in money, bolstering the TSPA, etc. Remains to be seen how much longer that can go on. If that can be reduced to a trickle, then a new iteration in TSP may be possible.

[RamaY]

OK. I got new ideas.

First of all the Kabila meme is not that new. Various Asuras in Indic history used this approach before from a IEDeological as well military strategy perspective. Bharat resolved those problems, periodically in its eternal history. We can learn from the old examples (Mahishasura, Raktabija, Ravana, Tripurasura etc.,) if we want, are willing to realize what we are and are capable of doing the right thing. Asuric forces are part of humanity and certain ideologies and religions represent those forces in certain times/places.

Secondly, few refreshing ideas to manage Pakistani failure

[Serious]

1. Entire Bharat converts to Islam - That would remove the religious angle from this problem and make it a pure law-and-order issue and GoI can resolve this issue as per Shariah laws.

2. Declare Pakistan as a stream of Hinduism - It would transform the Paki issue into a saffron terror issue, which can be suppressed easily by a secular GoI

3. Declare Bharat as a Christian nation - This will earn many western supporters and hopefully west will stop sponsoring Pakistan, leading to a peaceful submission of Pakistan or even better return of Jesus.

[\serious]

[ramana]

India already declared itself to be a secular nation state in 1975 and that didn't solve the problem of perception as Dar Ul Haram! And secularism is Christianity without Church.


So those ideas wont work.

[ShauryaT]

And secularism is Christianity without Church.

Pls repeat this everywhere a million times.

[harbans]

Ramay Ji, why not declare India a Dharmic state constitutionally. Not Hindu, Chrisitian, Islamic, Secular..but Dharmic? Fundamentals behind a Dharmic state will be a simple constitution based on Truth, Equality, Compassion, Humility and Equanimity. Do you think Muslims in India or Christians in India will oppose these fundamentals? Will anyone say they are not Dharmic? Dharma will certainly unify Sikhs, Dvaita, Advaita, Jain, Shaivites, Vaishnavites all sections of Indics. A constitution based on Dharma will not derail pluralism, but will set limits based on Truth, Equality, Compassion, Equanimity and Humility. Judgements will not be delivered with a rag on one's eyes, it will be based on all the fundamental values that constitute Dharma. Why not give more meaning to the Chakra in our flag and our national motto Satya Meva Jayate..?

[member_20617]

Carl, Its in TSP the Kabila meme is strong. Afghansitan is paying the price for that.

Ramana ji, yes, this is also Western-funded garrison culture at work. TSP is able to maintain and nurture the qabila meme because of the violence of partition and all the historical violence that has gone before. The public there is given the feeling of being threatened by India all the time. In addition, they are told gory tales of killing and rape by India's 700 million soldiers stationed in Kashmir, whose people are supposed to be one with TSP in body, mind and soul. So this constant feeling of war and violence is needed to keep the qabila meme alive, whether in TSP or Afghanistan.

In order to perpetuate war, the West is going to have to keep pumping in money, bolstering the TSPA, etc. Remains to be seen how much longer that can go on. If that can be reduced to a trickle, then a new iteration in TSP may be possible.

Carl

TSP is playing a two fold game:

(1) As you have written above, Pakis are constantly told lies about rape & killing by Indian soldiers as well as threat from Indian army.

(2) But there is also an Islamic agenda to subdue India through '1000' cuts and ultimately convert India to an Islamic state. This is their ultimate goal.

[RajeshA]

USA-Taliban Moves

Just some thoughts on a possible evolution of American policies in Pakistan.

I have been seeing some additional American interest in Baluchistan lately. Secondly I see that USA has opened a dialogue with the Taliban ostensibly to try to ease the departure of American forces from Afghanistan, and I see that USA has built up ANA and even some special forces of Afghans which work directly under the American command.

All this has started me thinking, that there is another game for America in this whole business.

What has been clear as the sun in the sky is the alliance between USA and the Pakistani Kabila aka Pakistani Army. USA could use the Kabila for its various projects in Central Asia as well as a pressure point against India. But since the last 6-7 years, the Pakistani Kabila has completely moved out of American control into the hands of Islamists who do not like to work with America, and in fact are willing to harm USA.

So if this Kabila in which USA has invested so much does not measure up to America's demands, can America just adopt another Kabila and dump the Pakistani Kabila.

After all, the alliance between USA and Saudi Arabia is intact and strong. Through Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, various Islamists living in London and elsewhere in the West, USA can hope to extend control over another Kabila!

As ANA is being built up, this possibility does rise, that ANA could be that Kabila, but ANA is under control of Americans independently of Saudi Arabia. America may like to get control over another more virulent Kabila, and for that Taliban does fit the bill! But bringing the Taliban to America's side is tricky, as it has had a very close relationship with Al Qaeda, America's sworn enemy.

So for a USA-Taliban understanding these assorted Al Qaeda people would have to be deposed. To a large extent, at least in the past, when Musharraf was President, Pakistan has helped USA do just that.

So here is the deal that America is offering to the Taliban:
a) They put a stop to drone attacks on the Taliban. To some extent the drone attacks have already come down, even if that is being explained as either to assuage Pakistan's feeling post-Salala incident or to facilitate talks with the Taliban in Qatar.
b) They give the Taliban a piece of the pie in Afghanistan. Some power-sharing arrangement in Kabul, and according to the Blackwill plan, the Americans retreat to Non-Pushtun Areas of Afghanistan giving the Taliban more or less control over the Pushtun areas.
c) They could entice the Taliban with encouraging a split in Pakistan with the Pushtun areas (perhaps together with Baluch areas) separating from Pakjab and Sind!
d) Financing of Taliban's new Emirate in Pushtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The Kabila in Rawalpindi has been flirting with the Chinese, and now that the Chinese have become competitors for American power, America might have thought that it is best to break Chinese power projection over the region by taking down its own paltu kutta - the Pakistani Army, and instead build up another Kabila which is outside the control of China, and can be controlled only by those who have an alliance with Saudi Arabia - the home of Wahhabi Islam.

Control over the Pushtun may be the better option than say control over the Pakjabis. The Pushtun fight. The Pakjabis have only Fauji Cement factories and produce corn-flakes. So what use is a Muslim Army which does not like to get its hands dirty, has become a nuisance for 'American partners like India', and is flirting with a strategic competitor - China?

But the Pakistani Army has made itself useful too for the Saudis by giving them the option of having a nuclear arsenal! Now if USA wants to disarm Pakistan of its nuclear arsenal, it first has to convince the Saudis that they do not need their own nuclear arsenal to defend itself. So the Saudis say, "what about Iran?" And the Americans say, we will take care of Iran! Thus there is an understanding between GCC, Israel and USA that Iranian nukes would have to go!

Question is: does this understanding extend to Indians as well? It is hard to say, because India is not ready to move against the Iranians. We think, we need Iran to have an independent policy option in Afghanistan! Pakistan too thinks it needs Iran to have its own nukes, so that Pakistan becomes indispensable to the Saudis. That is why A.Q. Khan gave the Iranians that nuclear tech!

Basically India is still not convinced about this project, even though it would entail USA splitting Pakistan down the middle and letting Indians handle a watered-down version of the Pakjabi Army!

[RajeshA]

USA-Taliban Moves

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

Top US envoy 'met Taliban leaders in Qatar': Telegraph UK

The delegation includes Tayeb Agha, former secretary to Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar, who has acted as go-between with American and German diplomats for more than a year.

Mr Grossman’s meeting, if confirmed, would be the first known contact made between the Taliban and a senior, named member of the Obama administration since the start of the Afghanistan war over ten years ago.

Rights violations shame Pakistanis at Congress hearing: Dawn

Code: Select all

http://www.dawn.com/2012/02/09/rights-violations-shame-pakistanis-at-congress-hearing.html

WASHINGTON: Guilt and shame were the two dominant feelings that overwhelmed many Pakistanis at a US congressional hearing room on Wednesday as witnesses detailed human rights abuses in Balochistan. Some were also troubled – while some felt elated – as all five US lawmakers who attended this unusual hearing of the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations stressed the Baloch right to self-determination.

But this emotive session – which often drew warm applause from Baloch nationalists – offered little insight into how to resolve this difficult issue. Perhaps, that’s not even the intention of those who had organised the meeting. They wanted to highlight Balochistan as a possibly explosive spot close to a US war-theatre and they succeeded in doing so.

There was some score-settling as well, particularly from US lawmakers upset with Pakistan over Osama bin Laden’s discovery in Abbottabad and with Islamabad’s decision to close Nato’s supply lines to Afghanistan.

“They sheltered the man who master-minded the slaughter of 3,000 Americans. Those who still believe Pakistan is a friend, they need to wake up,” said Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, a Republican, who organised and chaired the hearing.

Dr. M. Hosseinbor, a Baloch nationalist scholar, assured the Americans that the Balochs were natural US allies and would like to share the Gwadar port with the United States, would not allow the Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline through their lands and will fight the Taliban as well.

Ralph Peters, a retired US military officer, urged the US administration to break up its ties with Pakistan and support the Baloch struggle for freedom.

C. Christine Fair, an assistant Professor at Georgetown University, in her written statement, disagreed with the suggestion, saying that given the ethnic diversity of the province, its complicated history, and the existing geographic constraints, an independent Balochistan was untenable.

But such comments on Baloch politics were not what shamed the Pakistanis, and others, in the room. It was rampant human rights violations by both sides that shamed them.

According to the statistics submitted at the hearing, around 6,000 people were displaced and scores killed in 2005 around Dera Bugti district alone.

...

Congressman Rohrabacher declared that the hearing was no stunt, and that they wanted to start a national dialogue on what US policy should be in that part of the world.

What the US wants in the region is a Muslim Army at America's beckon and call, using which America can influence the dynamics of Central Asia and the Asian Periphery (Russia, China, India, Iran), and which allows America some plausible deniability.

It is not necessary for America that that Muslim Army should be TSPA. It can be ANA. It can be Taliban even. What America wants is complete control. TSPA is not amenable for complete control especially as its strategic interests and those of USA differ, especially viz-a-viz War on Terror, India, China, and Nukes.

Through American proxies in the Gulf, USA can control the Muslim Army of any virulence. Virulence is not the issue. Control is the issue. Now the Americans are busy trying to bring Taliban under US control. It could be an interesting situation for India were USA to change their allegiance and dependence from TSPA to the ANA/Taliban!

Ralph Peters Map for Western and Central Asia is the Blueprint. Much thinking has gone into making it! How the USA acts may seem sometimes being contrary to the creation of that map, but the USA is preparing the field in complicated ways with enough smoke and mirrors to claim that not they, but history itself had ordained the creation of that map!

For India of relevance is that Western Pakistan would move away from Indian claims, and not just that but also Gilgit-Baltistan would become part of a Greater Afghanistan. I presume, one reason why USA is interested in Gilgit-Baltistan is because it gives them access to needle China in Xinjiang as and when they please using Taliban-allied assets - ETIM. That may be one of the reasons that China has moved in into Gilgit-Baltistan. Not to mention, that USA would also get to control the temperature in the Kashmir Valley through Afghanistan.

So in many ways, Ralph Peters Map is advantageous for India. We get rid of TSPA and the nuclear threat. On the other hand we lose our civilizational rights to much geography if Pakistan loses its claim to that geography as well. I personally believe that the benefits in the short term are greater for India if the Ralph Peters Map becomes a reality! If India continues to grow at that speed we may still get control over PoK and Afghanistan at some later date when India would be able to challenge American and Saudi hold over the area!

[shiv]

What the US wants in the region is a Muslim Army at America's beckon and call, using which America can influence the dynamics of Central Asia and the Asian Periphery (Russia, China, India, Iran), and which allows America some plausible deniability.

The USA realised, as Britain did earlier, that of all the stupid brainless suicidal groups in the world who will do your job of getting killed Muslims are the most brainless, pliable and useful. Mullahs demand stupidity and death from followers and if you buy up the mullahs - Muslims will die for America.

Congratulations, Pakistan. Congratulations America.

[Agnimitra]

RajeshA ji, that was a wonderful and encouraging news item. Let's hope it translates into concrete action to save the Baluch people from the constant oppression of Pakistan. Stop this slow-motion genocide!

So in many ways, Ralph Peters Map is advantageous for India. We get rid of TSPA and the nuclear threat. On the other hand we lose our civilizational rights to much geography if Pakistan loses its claim to that geography as well.

I don't think we lose any "civilizational rights" to Baluchistan if Pak breaks up. We have civilizational rights to Gandhara too, which is in S. Afghanistan. We have civilizational rights to parts of Tajikistan also. In one sense, we have civilizational rights to the whole Indo-Iranian spectrum.

Its got nothing to do with the legacy of leftovers of the British Indian Empire.

In fact, if Baluchistan becomes independent, India will actually be able to increase its soft power presence in that state. So our civilizational footprint there will expand and deepen.

Ralph Peters map's plan for Gilgit Baltistan is not in India's interest. And if the US makes a tool out of the Taliban, that may not be in India's interests either, IMHO.

[RajeshA]

Ralph Peters map's plan for Gilgit Baltistan is not in India's interest. And if the US makes a tool out of the Taliban, that may not be in India's interests either, IMHO.

Carl ji,

That is however the price!

USA would make that move (splitting Pakistan as per Ralph Peters) only once it is assured/convinced that it has a replacement for TSPA. They would want PoK in order to maximize the uses of that Taliban Army as an access route to China soft underbelly.

You're of course right about Indian presence in Baluchistan. The splitting of Pushtunistan and Baluchistan from Pakistan would however be justified by saying that Pakjab is part of Indian Subcontinent, whereas Pushtunistan and Baluchistan belong more in the Iranic sphere of influence, though not under the influence of the current regime. I was referring to this narrative that Indo-Iranic Region are two separate entities. The narrative would be needed for the split. I've heard such narrative from an American earlier.

Of course, after Pakistan splits, as India grows we can again rubbish this narrative about Indo-Iranic Region being split along Sind-Baluchistan border.

[RamaY]

India already declared itself to be a secular nation state in 1975 and that didn't solve the problem of perception as Dar Ul Haram! And secularism is Christianity without Church.


So those ideas wont work.

Rji

Turkey's JLN tried to implement secularism there. After ~50 years we see the reverse trend.

India too can come back to its roots. There is a possibility.

Constitution is not Gods word to be permanent. The >50 amendments so far have already proved that point. When time is right, anything is possible.

regards,

[ramana]

What the US wants in the region is a Muslim Army at America's beckon and call, using which America can influence the dynamics of Central Asia and the Asian Periphery (Russia, China, India, Iran), and which allows America some plausible deniability.

The USA realised, as Britain did earlier, that of all the stupid brainless suicidal groups in the world who will do your job of getting killed Muslims are the most brainless, pliable and useful. Mullahs demand stupidity and death from followers and if you buy up the mullahs - Muslims will die for America.....

RajeshA, Lord Kitchner was supposed to have reorganized the British Indian Army in early 1900s with its high Pakjabi component building on Lord Roberts "martial races" theory, the canal building in West Punjab (gives a modern iqtadari system), to prepare for taking on Czarist Russia in Central Asia. Even the capital was moved from Calcutta for these big plans.

WWI intervened and all things fell apart.


I guess the TSP formation should be looked at this angle.

[Prem]

Bigriya Tigriya da Danda Pir. Find a way to halal them. All the intellectual stuff is beyond Poaq culture. permanent solution calls for permanent measures. The moment we can take certain loss of life and money , just call for meeting in Bahraich and finish the problems for generations to come. 47 solved half the problem 2027 calls for cleaning the rest of the mess in the West.

[sukhish]

the work will have to be done primarily by india. U.S will not abandon pakistan as long as it can have some control over its military.
it's all about control. geo politics will determine the fate. Also I'm not sure pakistan failing as the name of thread implies. bangladesh gor independence wit india's support. India will have to provide a covert support . India relations with iran will be crutial.

[ramana]

See the Pak military has changed from its early inception when they were projected as the rent boys for the Anglo Saxons.
However the Anglos Saxons have not changed from their original goals.

[RajeshA]

See the Pak military has changed from its early inception when they were projected as the rent boys for the Anglo Saxons.
However the Anglos Saxons have not changed from their original goals.

ramana garu,

We cannot expect that they would change their goals unless they themselves come to this judgment. But what one could hope for or even work for is to change their perception of HOW they achieve their goals, i.e. depending on whether we can agree on some common denominator for those goals.

So the question is whether the Anglo-Americans could consider ANA/Taliban/ANA+Taliban as a replacement for Pakistani Army! There was a sudden change in case of Shah of Iran. They have allowed Mubarak to fall. Qaddafi had become a partner. Sure all these cases have their own history, but overall the possibility cannot be ignored. And if there is a possibility of a change in the medium for the realization of the interests of Anglo-Americans (from Pakistani Army to something else), then India has to see if it suits our interests and if yes whether we should encourage this change.

[CRamS]

Guys, just a piskological question. Assume TSP were broken up into smaller pieces, but with the single largest still being pakiJabis along with their nukes & pigLeTs, and Talibunnies, and US support. I am not sure, even then the pakiJabi threat to India will diminish. Thought?

[RajeshA]

CRamS ji,
Pardon me for saying so, but that has been the subject of intense discussion on BRF in the last 4 years since I have been on BRF and probably earlier too! Of course, perhaps due to an alternative focus you may have missed the party!

Summarizing my own thoughts on this:
I definitely think Indian threat from Pakjab would start diminishing as Pakistan starts breaking up. However Baluchistan's break up from Pakistan would not provide the death blow! The death blow comes from the break up of lower Sindh from Pakistan as Pakistan/Pakjab loses access to sea! Separation of Gilgit-Baltistan from Pakistan would also go a long way in ensuring the desired change to Pakistan, as Pakistan also loses access to China.

Progressive partition of Pakistan becomes easier the more Partitions it has had - 1) Bangladesh 2) Baluchistan? 3) Pushtunistan? 4) Gilgit-Baltistan? 5) Muhajirstan ...

A Pakjab without access to Sea and Friendly Borders would become dependent on India completely and would have to let go of its nuclear weapons!

JMHO

[brihaspati]

I would rather make tremendous gestures of love and peace towards the Paki regime onlee when I have prepared for the death blow to the Paki regime. No point in shoing such camaraderie when there is no preparation to destroy the regime completely and ensure that it cannot be revived ever in any form. That does mean Indian sovereignty on the whole area - since without that, all the usual suspects we are whining about here - will return and restore status quo. The Brits could form Pakistan because they had sovereignty over the land, and had a standing army that remained largely loyal even if possibly secretly rebellious in the middle to lower ranks.

I dont see the need to be obsessed about USA or allies. Let us keep in mind that USA plays around, but they could not have played around if Pakis were not available to play around with.

We tend to emphasize too much the elite government roles on behalf of nations. The key to overthrowing the regime in Pakistan and containing the aftermath lies in studying its demographics, the internal forces that can tear apart Islamist pretensions, and look at what we can do to prepare the society itself for eventual destruction of its regime and merger with India.

One of the key things is to destroy the power base of the feudals and army - the land ownership pattern. Next comes compulsory modern education, and enticement towards aspirations of which 99.99% Pakis never come in touch with because their Dawaist+criminals+feudals+army keeps them away from even acquaintance with alternatives.

Its societal structure has to be destroyed, its ideological institutions destroyed, right to its roots. You cannot do it by waiting for USA to get weaker, or piously preach that mere trade and prosperity will solve everything.

[RajeshA]

brihaspati garu,

if one has all the effective firepower on the ground and a rhetoric to portray some group as the enemy of the people, one can drill any XYZ ideology into them!

Important in a post-break-up scenario is that India has direct but invisible control over all armed gangs in Pakjab, and all which are not under our control be eliminated mercilessly! In the beginning the gangs may even be Islamic or criminal or mafia or ethnic or caste-based or Maoist, but over time one can play the scene to bring them into the Indic mold.

[harbans]

A Pakjab without access to Sea and Friendly Borders would become dependent on India completely and would have to let go of its nuclear weapons!

Right!.A Pakjab dependent on Sindh for hinterland access, Gas from Baluchistan, Water from India would have to let go nukes. Plus such a small state with an economy possibly 50 Billion US will not be able to afford even maintaining an arsenal and a missile delivery system.

In it's hinterland disputes with Sindh it would have to leverage India to let Sindh take it easy, in Sindh's disputes on water with Pakjab they would have to leverage India to let Pakjab take it easy. India will have considerable leverage in such a scenario.

Its societal structure has to be destroyed, its ideological institutions destroyed, right to its roots. You cannot do it by waiting for USA to get weaker, or piously preach that mere trade and prosperity will solve everything.

Correct, In a United Paki union, the problem with complete all round vocal and overt display of hostility against US by India is economic depravity, a large number of people joining the bandwagon of MSA's ideals when he says stuff like India-Pak will face the world together. The Aman tamasha folks gaining large leverage..and subsequent ending of India's communal issue by faster, subsequent irreversible Islamization of India. The solutions most times are simple, don't really require brainwaves of an impending flash of doubtful genius.

The ideological roots that forge the conflict with the Kafir will have to be taken down completely. There is and should be no compromise with that effort. That is not a one method way to do it, it has to be done on multiple fronts for example preventing hounding of persons who dare criticize figures etc. A dhimmified approach is a sure way our national interests will sink down the drain of Islamism and Pakistaniyat.

[brihaspati]

RajeshA ji,
just redistribute the land. You will see the fun.

[RajeshA]

RajeshA ji,
just redistribute the land. You will see the fun.

brihaspati garu,

I did think about that many months ago, and I was of the opinion that if Dharmic non-state groups with some Indian state backup came to occupy and control large tracts of lands in the region, and a land redistribution scheme is started and if it were promised that Dharmics would be allotted land plots before those of the currently native ideology, I am sure one would see a mass rethinking among the population of the cosmological underpinnings of the universe!

[Prem]

Bring the feudals and other conrolling families to the path of Dharma and rest will follow.

[darshhan]

What does going "easy" on US mean? Unless you are an Uncle Tom, no self respecting Indian

You got it real quick bro.Maybe this is the issue.

[harbans]

Bring the feudals and other conrolling families to the path of Dharma and rest will follow.

Well said..Dharma has to be central to India's battle against Tsp, not anything else. That also should be central to uniting Indians under an umbrella and not any other religion or ideology. The significance of that is hard to put into words, but it's effect in terms of bringing coherence to polity, thought and purpose in the Nation cannot be underestimated. Action on the basis of that will have massive support and can be continually graded up in proportion. There are no short cuts here. Nothing Chanakyan. Straightforwardness of approach in dealings brings more tangible benefits, rallies more trust than anything else.

If one does have to deal with someone or some nation not to one's liking for economic or other interests even that must be truthfully put forward. Worse is lying saying ' Hey we are great friends and hence we deal with each other'. Deals are pure business and not necessarily approval of one's closeness in polity. Unless India unites under that banner it will be difficult to rope the RAPE in too, or anyone for that matter. In such, the underlying fundamentals of Pakistaniyat must be splashed all over much like BENIS achieves..

[devesh]

we are talking about effecting Paki land ownership patterns!!! how are we going to do that *before* actually being the supreme armed force in Pakistan?! without sovereignty on Paki land, how can we redistribute the land?

[member_19686]

One of Banda Bahadur's revolutionary acts was abolition of zamindari, of course in those days many of the oppressed peasants were Hindus and Sikhs with the landlords being Muslims.

So it has been done before but now both the peasants and the landlords belong to the same religion, that is the only difference.

Of course Banda's campaigns are unpalatable to modern secular Indians (lets just say that many "innocent" Muslim civilians got a taste of their own medicine after a long time when he felt the need for it), there is a reason the mullah class and muslim chronicles were very abusive towards him.

So unless we have the might and willingness to back up the talk with actions it will remain just talk.

[chetak]

Bring the feudals and other conrolling families to the path of Dharma and rest will follow.

would not pest control be a better option?

[shiv]

Bring the feudals and other conrolling families to the path of Dharma and rest will follow.

Well said..Dharma has to be central to India's battle against Tsp, not anything else.

May I suggest, for starters, two things that strike me
1. Dharma per se is non religious and need not necessarily step on any religious toes
2. Can someone cover any natural dislike/disgust he may feel and make a list of dharmic acts which are in consonance with Quranic teachings?

In the absence of "common ground" I can see little hope of progress.

[RajeshA]

Bring the feudals and other conrolling families to the path of Dharma and rest will follow.

I went into one scenario on that premise sometime earlier, under the title "Breaking the Islamist Hold"!

One post specifically of relevance is here!