The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 24 Jun 2011 18:37

Fact is the so many poor people are needed to keep a "reliable dumb unquestioning and pliable" set of voters in the votebank, so that they can be easily purchased when needed.This is how the politicians look at voters. if the voters began to think, it will bring change,and it will spell disaster for ruling dynasties.Can I coin an abbreviation? PRUDE-Pliable,reliable,unquestioning,dumb electorate.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Jun 2011 18:43

sanjeevpunj ji,
I appreciate your sentiments about the "potentially" revolutionary impact of the anti-corruption movement and you are spot on that it is essentially about changing the lighting in the corridors of power.

But I am sure you realize, from the background and profile of the voices which are clamouring the loudest for "change" but which must also be "led" by a particular group of activists [who themselves do not take their demands to the electorate on an election platform- obviously not sharing the much touted confidence in voter maturity being touted here] onlee - shows what it is really about.

It is a classic internal factional fight among India's elite for power. And as classically the politically "weaker" organized group takes it to the "people" to utilize some popular grievance to ride to personal power. Once they achieve that power, it will be back to square one - the reason so many other similar pious institutions started with a big thump and fizzled out to be lambasted here on this forum as having failed and needing something more "effective"! What the heck - the UP-Gujarat feudal-professional elite did it under the Brits and became Congressis, the same elite spawned the next generations of elite factional "relative deprivation" and spawned the socialists-communists under the Congress. The more things change the more they remain the same.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Jun 2011 18:47

Sanku wrote:Heee heee heee heee

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/team- ... rt/808158/

Team Anna knocks on Advani door for Lokpal support

What happened to no photos of Bharat Mata at rally, no RSS types, all political parties are chor etc, Anna Sahib.

Why dont you write to the clean PM, Shri Man Mohan and his master, Maino devi? Whom you so admired?

Reality check from Kangress?

BRD is a masterstroke from BJP to rein in the civil society towards BJP and now you can control the pakis like Medha Patkar.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 24 Jun 2011 20:13

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?725815

Some more smoke and mirrors from the government side...

Union HRD Minister Kapil Sibal today said Gandhian leader Anna Hazare was seeking to create a 'parallel government' through a Jan Lokpal bill without accountability, flouting the basic structure of the Constitution.

"Anna asks for prosecution powers without accountability for the Lokpal, which means he wants a parallel government. Did our framers of the Constitution ever think of such a situation arising now?" Sibal told a press conference here.

Sibal said Anna wanted the Lokpal to have the power to tap any one without permission, which again meant an authority unto itself. "It flouts the Indian Telegraph Authority. Is it a military institution? Are we out to make a police state?"

"The government is accountable to the Parliament and any MP can ask for explanation on Jan Lokpal bill. Any one can move the Supreme Court. These are the constitutional issues before the nation," Sibal said apparently referring to the civil society's demand for inclusion of the Prime Minister's Office and the Judiciary into its ambit.

Alleging that the BJP was not telling them about the constitutional structure and its importance to make democracy moving smoothly, Sibal accused the BJP and the RSS of deliberately creating a chaotic situation in the country by playing politics around the bill.

He claimed that the BJP was doing all this intentionally because it knew it would 'not come to power for the next ten years' after the drubbing it received during the recent Assembly elections.

"Therefore they have put (yoga guru) Ramdev upfront to create such a situation," Sibal claimed pointing out the fact that Congress had contested 356 out of 824 seats and won 171 while the BJP had contested 400 seats and won only 5 seats.

"BJP leaders are disrupting Parliament, shying away from debate, but want action. Is this democratic by not coming to the forefront and debate on national issues, and going to Haridwar to touch Ramdev's feet?" he alleged.

... and Anna Hazare's response.

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?725827

Replying to criticism that he was seeking to create a 'parallel government' through a Jan Lokpal bill without accountability, flouting the basic structure of the Constitution, social activist Anna Hazare today said all parties should decide if that was the case.

"We have decided to approach leaders of all political parties and show them the government's draft and our draft.

"We will ask them to study the two drafts and let us know if they find anything that is against Constitution in our draft. We would like to know if our draft is an attempt at forming a parallel government," Hazare told PTI over phone.

The Gandhian said civil society members would ask the leader of all parties their views on the drafts and how to go about eradicating corruption in our society.

"We will meet them and tell them to decide after reading our draft, so that no one says later that they were not shown the draft."

Today's meeting of Lokpal bill drafting committee member Arvind Kejriwal and former top cop Kiran Bedi with senior BJP leader L K Advani was a part of this process, he said.

"The meeting was very encouraging. Advani told us that the country needs an effective Lokpal. He heard us and requested us to make a detailed presentation before senior BJP leaders," Bedi said after the meeting.

Asked about Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh's reported 'warning' to him not to fast again else he may get the "same treatment" as Baba Ramdev, Hazare said "If the party is endangered, people (like Digvijay Singh) are bound to speak".

"They are bound to make attempts to checkmate the agitation and ensure that people do not participate," he said.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 24 Jun 2011 20:56

Arjun wrote: My point is simple. Any talk of 'maturity of electorate' based on election outcomes reflects classic Indian media dorkishness, the same non-rational dorkishness that results in their pseudo-liberal blather.

The same people who sing songs of "voter maturity" forget about the criminalization of politics and the HUGE percentage of chargesheeted criminals and family members in Lok Sabha (state assemblies are even worse off). So what does this mean: mature voter is putting criminals in office??? Ridiculous. The bottom line is that the "muture voter" does not have a good choice to begin with as a result of EC doing a pathetic job, inherently close nexus between criminals and political parties, and gaming of the system by political parties.

The level of unchangeable biased mindset is amazing, they will put up any crap out of their ___ to justify their bias and any crap that is contrary to their bias, can be minimized, trivalized, explained away, or simply ignored.

The bottom line is that elections in India are broken.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 24 Jun 2011 21:27

The elected have evolved. Earlier times, in good old days, as a prerequisite, some of the elected used to transition from Jail (Tihar and others) to parliament. These days, it is other way round, people get to parliament to get into Tihar Jail! Do not know which is the most coveted location anymore.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2011 21:31

You mean regressed - i.e. turned evolution backwards!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Jun 2011 23:19

some points about various things that have been said:

Naidu in AP became arrogant and abandoned the non-Urban sectors of AP. his first term was good. but later on, he became a narcissistic "dictator." and he flaunted it without any reservations. the people felt snubbed and insulted and voted him out. and YSR exploited the fundamental weakness of AP opposition parties (TDP fell from 150 seats in 1999 to 53 seats in 2004), and did enough for the people to put him in command of AP for a good amount of time and also gave him the opportunity to carve out an empire for himself and his family.

AP in 2004 is an example of what happens when politicians loose their feet on the ground and start living in aerial mansions and flaunt it to the people by openly displaying their narcissism.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jun 2011 23:56

India's corruption sleuths hounded

MUMBAI - A controversy brewing over leaving the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) outside the Right to Information Act spells more headaches to come for India's top crime-solving body, adding to long-festering ailments of manpower shortages and questions over its credibility amid claims it acts like a governmental cat's paw.

Whether suffering from too much work with too few workers, or from too much political interference, India's equivalent of the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) hogs front pages daily. It remains India's best bet in the hunt for the truth behind major crimes and the investigation of high-profile corruption cases.

But the hunter, in the eye of the storm for the unprecedented anti-corruption movement now underway underway in India, is being hunted. Communist Party of India General Secretary A B Bardhan on Thursday accused the government of keeping the CBI outside public purview. "You have a veil of secrecy over the wrongs that you are doing,'' he said, alleging that the CBI has acted as the political wing of the ruling party.

State governments and courts can call upon the CBI to investigate a case from any CBI branch in 38 cities in India, but the pressure does stop there. Senior editors in Mumbai, for instance, asked Maharashtra chief minister Prithviraj Chavan to call the CBI to investigate the June 11 murder of veteran crime reporter Jyotirmoy Dey, suspecting the local police were covering up their corrupt links to the shooting of Dey in broad daylight in suburban Ghatkopar.

Wasn't Dey the one murdered along with SSS, with whom he was co-authoring a book? Probably a job the ISI subcontracted to Dawood.

Former CBI director R K Raghavan says the government has vested interests in ensuring the CBI remains outdated and ineffective. Writing in The Hindu newspaper on February 15, 2011, Raghavan said:

"Insularity from political pressure is an absolute must. At present such insularity does not exist. The Single Directive [as spelt out by the Supreme Court in Vineet Narain] that requires government approval for even a preliminary enquiry against officers of and above the rank of Joint Secretary, considerably whittles down the [CBI] Director's authority. Worse is the dependence on the government for preferring an appeal against acquittals. The provision in the Code of Criminal Procedure in this regard, which vests authority on the government [whether or not to appeal] needs to be deleted so that the Director becomes the sole authority in the matter. At present, this authority is perceived as being misused by governments."

Raghavan, CBI director from January 1999 to April 2001, expressed his vision that the CBI should be "as powerful and esteemed as the FBI".

For the CBI be anywhere near the same league as the FBI, the Indian government would need to make a monumental investment, starting with increasing the workforce: the FBI has 35,437 employees, as of May 31, 2011, compared to 5,100 staff for the CBI. While the FBI has 13,963 special agents, 21,474 support professionals such as scientists, intelligence analysts, language specialists, information technology specialists and others, CBI director Singh has complained he does not even have sufficient financial experts to tackle money-related crimes.
[...]
Rather than fitting out the CBI with more powers, the government decided on trimming it. Unlike the FBI, which has anti-terrorism operations in the US as its leading objective, a new National Investigation Agency (NIA) has taken over anti-terrorism work. And the NIA has been given the old CBI head quarters in New Delhi to start its new life.

nikkap · Post by **nikkap** » 25 Jun 2011 00:03

My brothers & sisters in this forum. our all problems arises from our ignorance of law.i have yet to come across a person in india who have a clue what law is?what system is? Nobody knows & not even in this forum.i would love to hear all your comments on my statement because it is the key question.All this talk on AH & BRD,LOKPAL BILL,REFORMS,POLICIES are secondary things.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jun 2011 01:58

our all problems arises from our ignorance of law.i have yet to come across a person in india who have a clue what law is?what system is? Nobody knows & not even in this forum.i would love to hear all your comments on my statement because it is the key question.All this talk on AH & BRD,LOKPAL BILL,REFORMS,POLICIES are secondary things.

Everything is Doctrine. Everything. All else is a reflection of it, Laws and Justice systems..poor or good. Applying to Nations, if you have a constitution, the country reflects and works towards it. Working towards it's goals is achieved by Policy initiatives. Like the reforms and de-licensing effort. Working policies and evolving is the tough part really. But it happens. The nation always reflects the values in it's Constitution. Same with Pakistan. It want's an Islamic Constitution. Now people are struggling to achieve that. Look at the anguish of the Islamists. Blasphemers are not stoned and executed, Kafirs running amok in Paki towns and cities..The GOP doing nothing to implement Sharia and shuttlecock burkha's in full force. Sacrilege truly to the Constitution. So what do the Taliban want? Laws? No, they want implementation of the Constitutional ideals. How do you implement the constitution, Indian or Sharia? Via Policy. So ergo, Policy is supreme.

So unless you have a dispute with the Constitution of India, you must look at policy initiatives. Even Constitutional amendments are game if the executive decides. So everything is policy. That's why the focus on Policy reforms here to reflect the constitution better. Hope that helps. Plus there is a good thread started by Arjun Ji thats crystallizing the sort of Nation and value systems we seek to develop and make.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 Jun 2011 03:33

Just had to comment on another entertaining piece of Elite Iskool propaganda, that is being touted as an example of how "change within the system" is the only workable solution to India's problems. Especially when we have noble people like Sonia Maino making "good policy" from behind a purdah of zero accountability.

Apparently some new bill is to be introduced, whereby people with pending criminal sentences of "five years or more" will not be allowed to contest elections.

What a terrific "policy initiative", no?

Of course, note that the bill only says that such criminals cannot contest elections. Not that they can't be artificially elevated to positions of influence by the Mainovadis, without any need for elections. Like the traitor Binayak Sen, sentenced to life imprisonment for aiding and abetting a terrorist movement fighting a self-declared war against the Indian state. In May, Sen was appointed to the Planning Commission of India by the Mainovadi regime.

Yet another example of why all this business of accomplishing reform "within the system" through the drafting of "good policy" is a joke that has ceased to be funny. The level of absolute farce to which the Mainovadis are trying to restrict the "Lokpal Bill" is simply a case in point.

By the way, the most often-repeated canard by Elite Iskool Maino-apologists on this forum? "If you don't like INC... Wait until the next elections, and Vote it Out!"

Meanwhile, if some major corporation (part of the 9% "Growth Story" of India) opens a factory that is spewing carcinogenic chemicals into the air near your home... don't hurt the "Growth Story" by organizing immediate protests. Don't try to hijack the constitution, or blackmail the law, by making public demands that the factory be shut down.

No, work within the system instead. Wait five years instead. By then you'll have stage 4 metastatic cancer and you can take your chemotherapy like a good boy. That's a legitimate solution, one that works "within the system" (given the strange sense in which Mainovadi apologists use those words) and does not compromise the "Growth Story".

After all, this isn't about justice... it's about ensuring that the letter of the Constitution has primacy over the people whose interests the Constitution is meant to serve. It's also about ensuring that certain Elite Iskool Mainovadis have at least another three years in which to fatten their mattresses with your money (all in the name of the "Growth Story" of course.)

The fun never stops though. Yet another strawman has been flung into the din by the Elite Iskooled... the NDA regime, it seems, showed the lowest average GDP growth of all governments of India following the 1991 reforms!

No doubt, H.D. Deve Gowda and I K Gujral were far more "savvy" and "growth oriented"... on a par with certain "IIX Alumni" to be sure

But wait a minute... didn't the NDA government actually fight a war to protect Indian territory from Pakistani aggression in 1999? Didn't they test nuclear weapons in 1998, despite knowing fully well that there would be negative consequences in terms of economic sanctions? Didn't they mount and maintain Operation Parakram... putting so much pressure on the American mission in Afghanistan, that Washington forced the Pakistanis to curb their infiltration of terrorists into Kashmir almost completely?

Some of these things might have slowed down the actual rate of GDP growth during NDA's tenure; but would we rather have given Kargil to the Pakistanis, and remained an undeclared nuclear power?

If anything, the real expansion of India's interests under the NDA government even while the "GDP numbers" remained low, only serves to illustrate the real value of this "Growth Story." 9% growth doesn't mean a damn thing to most Indians if they must contend with crippling inflation and the effects of massive, systemic corruption from day to day.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 25 Jun 2011 04:25

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 984178.cms

Law minister Veerappa Moily on Friday said the government draft on the Lokpal Bill had been "evolved" after the nine meetings of the joint drafting committee and would be one considered for further consultations. The Team Anna draft was "at best a dissent note", he said.

Moily's statement is significant because so far it was felt the two drafts were parallel initiatives with some points of divergence. This assertion from one of the members of the panel and the law minister is a clear indication that as and when Lokpal Bill is taken up either at the Cabinet or the all-party meeting next month, the government version will take precedence.

Moily also released what he called a clause by clause comparison between the government's version and the civil society version. The comparative statement, though, is largely an exercise in proving the superiority of the government draft, especially with respect to the contentious provisions. In fact, under most heads, the provisions of the Jan Lokpal Bill have been replaced by just a line about how the government Bill is better.

On the matter of the selection committee for the Lokpal – an issue which emerged as a point of divergence in the meeting on June 15 – there is a detailed description of the government proposed selection committee. Where the Jan Lokpal provision should have been, there is a statement about how the government committee is wider, making the selection process "fair" and how the government Bill allows the selection committee greater maneuvering space regarding procedures.

On the issue of jurisdiction of inquiry, the column for the Jan Lokpal Bill says, "It proposes to have jurisdiction over various functionaries by defining certain expressions. The government Bill widens the jurisdiction of Lokpal to ministers, MPs, group A officers... (and) other bodies under the government or controlled or financed by the government including other association of persons or trusts."

On some sections like action on inquiry in relation to public servants not being ministers or members of Parliament, or action on inquiry against public servants or ministers and MPs, the Jan Lokpal column simply reads "Provisions differ materially". It is the same for confirmation of attachment of assets and on the power of Lokpal to recommend transfer or suspension of public servant accused of corruption.

On annual statement of accounts, against the detailed description of the provisions in the government Bill, where the Jan Lokpal provisions should have been, it says, "Detailed provisions are there in the government Bill empowering CAG adequately on this behalf. Sketchy provision is made in Jan Lokpal Bill."

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Jun 2011 09:50

Anna Hazare may get 'Ramdev treatment' if he fasts: Digvijay
In a veiled warning to Anna Hazare for his proposed fast, Congress leader Digvijay Singh on Wednesday indicated that the Gandhian might be meted out the same treatment, depending upon the prevailing situation at that time, as yoga guru Ramdev was given at Ramlila ground.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 25 Jun 2011 09:57

Interesting analysis by Shekhar Gupta on the AH-type phenomenon, especially w.r.t the "revolutionary" instincts displayed here so often, vis a vis our "rotten" democracy...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/our-s ... y/808505/0

A few of the points made are disengenuous, IMO..For example, the point on "shaking hands with a dalit, or having a dalit friend", to an audience supposedly of IIX alumni....Above all, of course, the subliminal tenor of authoritarianism thrust on the Lokpal - in the current format, it is stretching the point too much...

But there is an important point in this..

Today’s chattering classes owe their new globalised stature to this reform, which came out of our politics. Today, every chief minister, every political party talks investments, infrastructure, aspiration. Yes, there are problems with our politics and governance and both need reform. That reform is challenging and messy, and needs imagination, patience and persistence. It needs better education for the voter, not contempt for the voting classes. It needs better, deeper, wider democracy, not less of it. What will never work are these quick, elitist and even escapist solutions imposed from “outside” the parliamentary tent by a privileged few who seem to believe the TV studio is the new Lok Sabha and you don’t even have to be elected to get there.

I dont quite agree with a lot of the hypothesis, but do agree with the fact that changes cannot be outside the democratic framework - whether well meaning activism of the AH-type, or "revolutionary" internet activism

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Jun 2011 10:35

^^^

He's got it wrong. GoI is riding the same tiger as the CPC in China. They have to keep increasing opportunities for the people, as any perception of a decreased standard of living will give rise to unrest. In this, it is only the middle class (the elite when compared to BPL) who have experienced increased rewards following 1991, and who will react to them being diluted or taken away (through corruption in the present case).

Yes, it would be preferable if there is a trend towards greater democracy. But the federal government continues to rule with an iron fist through the governors.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jun 2011 11:13

somnath wrote:I dont quite agree with a lot of the hypothesis, but do agree with the fact that changes cannot be outside the democratic framework - whether well meaning activism of the AH-type, or "revolutionary" internet activism

Several of India's problems will be resolved with continued 9 - 10% growth over the next 2 decades.

Some deep-seated issues are not resolvable purely through higher growth - these include some types of corruption, need for electoral reform, the problem of dynastic politics, and the appropriate approach in dealing with exclusivist ideologies.

An appropriate timeframe should be allowed (say 5 years) by which time Indian citizens need to see some movement on these latter fronts - and they should allow for democratic processes to lead to the resolution. However if things continue to remain the same - it might then be appropriate for a rethink. If you really are an IIX product, I am sure you would agree that the focus on outcomes and results needs to remain top priority.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 25 Jun 2011 11:38

Arjun wrote:If you really are an IIX product, I am sure you would agree that the focus on outcomes and results needs to remain top priority.

Not sure how personal datum level is relevant to the discussion...

However, a country/nation-state is not a commercial entity......Commercial organisations, at the worst, can file for bankruptcy and demise, a nation-state cannot...The principles of "bounded rationality" apply much more sharply to the operation of a nation-state than it does to a commercial entity...

So I dont know what you mean by "focus on outcomes"...In a democracy, the electorate votes on the basis of a balance of outcomes for themselves...Simultaeneously, also use multiple modes of influence peddling (or lobbying) to influence selected outcomes...

Problems of "corruption", nepotism et al are seldom solved by "revolutionary" system changes - the Raza Pehlavi regime was accused of being "corrupt" - are the Iranian mullahs any less so? The Tsarist regime was famously corrupt..Were the communists any less so, finally?

On the other hand we have exemplars of incorruptibility across the "systemic" divide - from a democratic Germany/Denmark to a quasi-democratic Singapore to a totalitarian HK....Depends on the social, political and economic basis really..

Regardless of what internet warriors think, Indians love their "freedom", and the democracy....the middle class was apparently famously enthralled by the Emergency - we saw what happened...Voter participation in election, which I keep reiterating, only reinforces the same point..

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Jun 2011 11:55

Buccaneers at the helm by NV Subramanian - http://www.newsinsight.net/archivedebat ... recno=2159

In February when this magazine and this writer broadly hinted that the finance minister's conversations had been tapped, it was insinuated that prime minister Manmohan Singh indirectly had ordered it. This now appears not to be true at all. The PM was as much in the dark about the bugging of Pranab Mukherjee as he was uninformed about the Ramlila Maidan police attack on 4-5 June. Both were, in a manner of speaking, rogue operations without Union cabinet or other authoritative clearances.

An interesting aspect of the regime-sponsored pogrom Ramlila Maidan is the way the stage was set on fire. Baba Ramdev says that the people were in fact prevented from trying to extinguish the flames. So Baba Ramdev may be in fact correct in claiming that the regime was interested in murdering a large number of citizens.

Perhaps the goal may have been to use the outrage to eject MMS, so that the Mainovadis could then install Rahul Baba. It seems that MMS, by allowing the CBI to investigate the various scams, albeit feebly, has caused serious takleef to the Mainovadis.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jun 2011 12:00

somnath wrote:Regardless of what internet warriors think, Indians love their "freedom", and the democracy....the middle class was apparently famously enthralled by the Emergency - we saw what happened...Voter participation in election, which I keep reiterating, only reinforces the same point..

You haven't understood my point at all.

If you haven't already made out from my posts - I am one of the more ardent champions of true democracy and liberalism on this forum, and my only focus is on looking to achieve this. I am looking at strengthening democracy rather than weakening it.

My point is very simple.....I am bringing in basic concepts of management that apply to all governance, irrespective of whether the context is public governance or commercial.

In case you don't have a management background - these concepts include a focus on outcomes, accountability and incentivization.

Lets focus on incentivization. What incentive does the current democratic setup afford for electoral reforms when the executive and legislature has obviously been the beneficiaries of the very same faults of the current democracy? What incentive is there for elimination of dynastic politics ?

If there is no incentive - why would the executive / legislature even bother about addressing these issues? Therefore, the conundrum I am trying to address is to how one can bring about the better democracy that is required - when the current setup offers no incentive towards any such dialogue.

If you have a solution, happy to discuss on this or other threads.

Not sure how personal datum level is relevant to the discussion...

Only to the extent that I can use concepts with the confidence that you would relate to them.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 25 Jun 2011 12:51

SUN,VENUS,MOON.MERCURY and SATURN were in the Ascendant when we got our Independence on 15th August, 1947. Mars was trailing behind one house and Jupiter was in the 4th House.without getting into details of how I arrive at the predictions below, may I introduce an astrological viewpoint that might shed light on what is to come.

Global Fame,Leadership,Politically dominant on the world, strong and merciful, leading ahead in businesses. These are some general aspects that India is endowed with.
A decisive turning point in India's internal affairs will occur around 30th August 2011.(This is related to the impending Lok pal Bill). Growth and Peace are tainited by war, and Mars is insurmountable. being the planet of war, Mars forbodes bloodshed, not only for India, but for its neighbours too.Around June 2012, almost a year from now,there is a likelihood of a full scale conflict between India and its neighbour-Pakistan,and this conflict will prolong till the end of 2012.The Army needs to prepare for an eventuality in 2012 June.I am saying there is a possibility,a great possibility,as in astrology there are no certainities.Astrology is cursed by the godess of wealth Lakshmi, so money plays a crucial role in changing the direction of events always.Most of the predictions are often overturned by the use of money at the last moment.

The amount in the swiss banks is huge,and any consequential leaders of the Lok Pal Bill are likely to be bribed! Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev will be tested with wealth temptations, and if they come out of it unscathed and carry on their fight, things will definitely be different from what thay appear to be now.Percptions are constantly changing, everything is always in a state of flux.I see India standing tall in 2017 and onwards.A lot would have been overcome, including the neighbour's tantrums.
Year 2021 will usher in Mahadasha of Mars, giving moral strength to India's position globally.India's mascot is Jupiter (Brihaspati) and its guardian is Mars(personified by Hanuman).Sun,Venus,Moon,Mercury and Saturn are its key blessing planets. Specially the Sun, has wide ranging political effects, being in the Ascendant.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Jun 2011 17:44

Class is a wonderful nebulous concept. It is useful to claim spaces disproportionate to presence or any actual consciousness of such "class". However, even if we agree to the existence of a so-called well-outlined "middle" class, then history says that the middle class is essentially "reactionary", and any "revolution" it goes for is the Nazi type - if at all. The "middle" class does not want to take the risk of a "revolutionary" change that may take away their higher status with respect to the "chhota log" and what little they have managed to build up as a nest egg. They would also see some hope in being promoted eventually to the "upper class" through continued "dus percenti" growth - so they would be very much against anything that can be represented as "war-mongering/social peace disturbing/upsetting of apple cart".

So in that sense it does seem to be consistent - that the "middle class" voice would insist on status-quo of seeming "growth" which must continue without actually specifying where that growth ultimately concentrates as benefits to which "class", and that its own loud presence on social drum beats represents consensus of all "classes". This is the middle section that swings to Communist or Nazi according to whichever regime promises its continued elevation in status and continued financial benefits.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 25 Jun 2011 17:48

Arjun wrote:Lets focus on incentivization. What incentive does the current democratic setup afford for electoral reforms when the executive and legislature has obviously been the beneficiaries of the very same faults of the current democracy? What incentive is there for elimination of dynastic politics ?

Incentivisation is driven by what the voter wants...the problem is that your idea of "incentives" might be different from what the large mass of voters want....Laloo may have been "corrupt", but for a time, for a large mass of Bihar voters, he represented a chance of physical safety against the excesses of upper caste landlords/religious extremists...(Laloo's record on Ranvir Sena excesses as well as communal riots at the margin was substantially better than his predecessor Congress govts)...Now, physical safety is as strong an incentive as it gets, and as rational too (Maslow's hierarchy starts with "physical"

)...

However, the same voter decided after a time, that physical safety wasnt enough...He was agitated about lack of development, nepotism etc - and Laloo was thrown out on the basis of a completely different narrative...Laloo himself had to change his own...

So its a bit disengenuous to say that there is no "incentive" structure present in the current system...

No one issue can ever decide outcomes, unless it is a really BIG affair - Bofors was one, IG's murder was another, Gujarat riots - there are a few...but voters tend to grapple with a multitude of outcomes..Its messy and dirty in the Indian scenario, but its seldom completely irrational...Its the same system that delivered the reforms of 1991..Its the same system that delivered RTI in UPAI...The same system created an exceptional EC...

According to me the real issue is whether sponsors of the "issues" are lobbying effectively enough...People like Aruna Roy were at it for many year on RTI, and finally got the system to change..Industry lobbies often get the system to change...AH has succeeded in gettign the system to move...A bunch of IIX almuni got the system to correct itself in MMJ/Arjun Singh's time...The trick is in increasing the effectiveness of non-electoral political engagement...That is my idea of a "better democracy"...

I dont know wat you mean when you talk of, "lets give it 5 years, and then we have to look at something else"...What is this "else"? the group think here seems to be Comrade Lenin!

BTW..

Arjun wrote:Only to the extent that I can use concepts with the confidence that you would relate to them

Stuff like incentivisation and outcomes are nothing "original" to "management" thoughts (actually most of the latter is quite intuitive - Porter to Prahlad, the meat really is in identifying and explaining the trend, but that is way OT..Maybe we should start a thread on management paradigms, new and old)...So shoot away, regardless of my "management education" inadequacies!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jun 2011 18:46

Col Athale in Rediff on why he opposes the LPB, excerpts:

The whole approach of the civil society activists is legalistic, with an unbounded faith in laws as cure for all. In India we have a plethora of laws but very little law and order. It is essential that any solution for corruption must involve political scientists, management experts, administrators in order to work out laws and institutions that work, says Colonel Dr Anil Athale (retd)

.....

It is essential that any solution for corruption must involve political scientists, management experts, administrators in order to work out laws and institutions that work.

.....

The current approach to corruption via the Jan Lokpal is essentially based on creating institutions to punish the corrupt. No thought seems to have been given on measures to prevent corruption (prevention is always better than cure). In a nutshell, the preventive measures would involve,

Firstly, electoral reform, which will include state funding and two-stage elections -- a preliminary round and a run off between first two candidates.

Secondly, a strong anti-corruption law whereby the burden of proof to show that the wealth and property that is disproportionate to known sources of incomes be put on the accused. Also once such wealth/property is detected, it should be confiscated/sealed once a person is convicted and during the pendency of appeal.

This will make sure that the rich and powerful have no incentive to use judicial delay.

Thirdly, right to recall of elected representatives.

Fourthly, separate judicial accountability commission to deal with judicial corruption, directly under Parliament.

And lastly, revision of tax and other laws to remove discretionary powers.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110617.htm

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 25 Jun 2011 19:18

There is an unexplored concept of "Spiritual Communism" too.This has its examples in Ashrams and its equivalents in other religions (Kibbutz in Israel,Monasteries in Christianity,Madrasas in Islam).Shared commonwealth, yet under one religious dominance.Ashrams function on two conditions - people work together for a common purpose, and anyone who works for the Ashram gets the benefits from it.It could be shelter and food basically, and clothing. I have seen how ISKCON ashrams are spreading worldwide, how they function internally.Krishna is the central theme, and everyone works towards that.There is substantial intellectual support for the followers in the Gita and Srimad Bhagvatam, to keep the soul alive, and for the body there is prasadam and there are cheap and comfortable clothes to wear.Its a high standard of living. This concept of "spiritual communism" living in a commune, a sort of "Global Village" was exactly what Gandhi had in mind and has manifested eventually through ISKCON. With over 500 temple-ashram complexes worldwide, it provides a network for sharing food,clothing and shelter, for encouraging grrowth of intelligence through spiritual discussions, encouraging good health through good food habits,and in general encouraging a high standard of living,through affordable means.

Baba Ramdev is a product of an Ashram too.However he deviates from some set norms, so he has chosen to be rich, and is often held in envy by many sadhus, but that is quite acceptable to his followers. Anna Hazare is a self made man,who circumstances and events pushed up to the level where he is, who has ample support of illuminati, Amir Khan himself is a fan of Anna Hazare. Both these "Lok Pal gurus" are being seen by their followers as someone worth following and I don't think that will change by any actions done by the government. On the contrary it will make them martyrs while alive. In fact martyrdom, which is usually bestowed after death, is what these two are heading for, personally.They know inside their heart, they might have to face the inevitable.More is to be seen, as it happens.

Going back to the point of "spiritual communism" its worth watching this movement grow quietly and globally, as it does not bring about any violent changes in the lives of people, it is a good resort for those who need it. For those who are materially successful, and need spiritual insights, they also can find something here. For the general aam aadmi, such "spiritual communism" is a lifestyle which has already elevated them from "aam aadmi" to a very different platform, which is stable,well grounded in reality, spiritually established,and materially economical.

Looking at the classes that grew rich overnight with changes of government, the noveau rich baboo classes, their fortunes can be affected seriously by introduction of Lok Pal Bill. Definitely the outcome is seen by them clearly, so they are pushing the government to supress the Lok Pal Bill and to make it toothless.It has always been these baboo classes, who are financially better off than "aam Aadmi" but stay hidden in the garb of the same, and push their agenda through political leaders, who are hand in hand with the baboos. Even the RTI act has actually upset them a lot, and Rahul Gandhi needs to be thanked for pushing the RTI scene into focus. Many youth are now demanding information and they will have to be given information.The RTI act perhaps is the turning point, which in turn ushered the demand for a Lok Pal which had been set aside for 40 years.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jun 2011 19:46

somnath wrote:Incentivisation is driven by what the voter wants...the problem is that your idea of "incentives" might be different from what the large mass of voters want....

You've got it all topsy-turvy. I am looking for exactly what the majority wants, and the current democratic structure is the one that does not really go by the majority. Muppalla had described both the issue and solution which I have shared earlier as well...

Muppalla wrote:Fundamentally India's democracy is being ruled not by a majority. The guy who is winning gets less that 50% of votes polled. Entire strategy these days is to find a way to win with just 15% of votes polled. Create a run off election between the top two candidates to get the winner. This way one will force a real winner. Otherwise the system is open to manipulation by freebies and divisions by money power. Again no BS with complicated preferential voting systems followed by some island countries with less than a thousand people as population. Just keep conducting two rounds of election and that will wear out the current divide and rule strategy. This will force the parties to strategize on inclusiveness rather than strategies of dividing the middle classes on caste/religion while hoarding the poor by using bribes+freebies to the booths with a bonus of voting fraud at selected booths.

The current democratic structure allows for candidates to win who might have won less than 30% of the votes. Muppalla's strategy above is the one that ensures India gets what the majority wants.

somnath wrote:So its a bit disengenuous to say that there is no "incentive" structure present in the current system...

What incentive structure would allow for MPs to want to move to the more representative democratic system as outlined above, when all of them have won based on the current process which has obviously served these MPs well? Can you list out exactly what mechanism can be applied so as to make the executive + legislature see the importance of these reforms?

somnath wrote:So shoot away, regardless of my "management education" inadequacies!

Well, if you are convinced that I was focusing on some imagined inadequacies in your education, what can I say? You need to get rid of your complexes. I thought I had made it plain my aim was to ensure you were able to relate to certain basic concepts without labored explanation on my part.

satya · Post by **satya** » 25 Jun 2011 20:47

The Beginning :

Came a New King & his ministers. Few of them never seen the durbar so close nor its riches . One of ministers given a matka full of riches as 'salaam' from a Cat of the Durbar Corridor . The minister shocked , went back to his Gurudev and gave him the bhog . Unfortunately he gave the bhog in presence of Gurudev's family. One said its mine another said mine too & another kept quiet clearing the sweat from his face nervously least someone know he too had received 100s such matkas in past. Cat of Corridor told the BhogMaker of success. Bhogmaker hopes the little matka shows its maya & he can pull of the leela of his life & so he did & like Bollywood copycats followed ,Cat of Corridor can't remain for one , she enjoys group

A bit about Cat & Dogs

Once the dogs with their king Doga use to rule the durbaar corridors ............... those were the times there was honor in a mere handshake & word was everything but tht was then things moved slowly & used to take long breaks in summer then came the Cat the sign of evil & bad luck & Doga perished without heir apparent . Meanwhile Cat had wht dogs always wanted & for first time can show they too not mere anpad gawaar but can talk english walk english & the downfall since when has parai naari brought gud luck to an already married man & again the words became cheap for 1 paisa per minute value was lost , dogs lost they got tired couldn't speak english they thought they could but it was new language new demands for licking & certain other acts they never understood so when sachivs of ministers went for long time abroad ; dogs thought it was mere mauj masti but for sachivs they brought back paschimi sabhayata tht was complete strange & confusing to our desi dogs , once they had tasted some european sabhayata but the shock was such they lost one of the most lovable dog in tht since then they decided be indian for once & ever & did their prayaschit . Dogs were used to licking shoes and kissing hands no further but sachivs luv lap dance & wht not

so come the curtain down on the empire of dogs

Fast forward to not so distant past :

Bhaand of Durbar got itchy for the new cat in durbar gave them crumb & never consider them worthy of her errr' the group thingie'' while distributing matkas of artha & kama yes they too hear about increased sale of matkas in the city

. Cat had her enemies in form of residential & outerwall dogs , they asked the bhaand to do a bhandafod on the cat.

Cat was used to drinking milk from many kitchens & also giving lap dancing & stuff to masters of the kitchen & yes sometimes the house. Some not like sharing for they are the emperors of both old & new empire . Since when has new & old existed together one has to perish or so both thought & so it began wht a luck Bhaand had , he got so many matkas of so many things tht one of the bhaand had to leave for sake of others

Along came not so long ago a madari & saw excellent setting for game & so it began . Found one size fit all Maratha Bulldozer . Initially everyone cheered for attention had gone from cat & dog . Ministers come ministers go dogs remain to tell stories & write the unofficial history of durbar & bringing efficiency in its operations for long they been pushed off the streets now's there time one last act one last master stroke b4 ..................

But then madari wanted to bring in a new show with new actors , new clothes , new settings & a new date was set for the new show to begin . Only problem was The Bulldozer had no brake & too many diesel kings were pouring diesel in its engine more than madari anticipated . Madari panicked & rest is history .

Fast forward present :

New show , old players , new clothes , new dialogues , new acting :

1) Tinted glasses of high building will be tinted to the fullest no outsider errr mango praja dare to see wht's inside as b4 , commoners must only gossip never hear never see never speak the truth of ras lila tht goes on inside King's harem / durbar. Every one agree for hangover still there its not wht they like.

2) Cats will be shown their place , a few might be thrown in the pit for dogs to play .........

3) Mango employees of durbar will be taught the old lesson they have forgotten ie remember where u came from , remember there are million others willing to work in ur place for a simple end of month pay agree or perish . It will be done in a stealth manner as much as possible for the old headmasters with cane have already left for narak bhog .

4) The Watchmen will only guard the doors & windows & pipes & gutter of Rajmahal & durbar no further. For below there are other old chaukidaars who will be allowed to redeem themselves in khaadu lane posting ( dry posting/ punish posting ) & ensure the middle & lower mango employees of durbar start telling stories of so jao warna gabbar aa jayega .
This will ensure tht India will be the only country where raids for sui gayab to desh gayab will continue & mangoes will be made example of now & then .

The Bulldozer has begun to run low on diesel , the promised diesel in vicinity of durbaar NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

Pls ignore if not understood can't say or explain anymore.

Meanwhile enjoy Double Dhamaal .

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 25 Jun 2011 20:56

Arjun wrote:The current democratic structure allows for candidates to win who might have won less than 30% of the votes. Muppalla's strategy above is the one that ensures India gets what the majority wants

Its a reasonable idea in theory, though not sure if its practical at all levels of elections...The recent Assembly elections in WB was stretched for about 3 months in total - from announcement of dates to announcement of result..If there were to be a 2 stage election, we would have had a 6 monthly schedule ...And given the immense financial pressure that would put on all candidates/parties, the impact of money power will only increase....

BTW, the chestnut about "15% votes and you win" is a bit of, well, a chestnut...Can anyone point out a party that has won a majority by getting 15% of the votes? In the Prliament today, INC received 29% of the votes in 2008, but if one includes all its allies, I am sure the voteshare goes up to 40%+ range...Ditto for all assemblies as well..

Lastly, many parliamentary democracies, most of them much smaller than us, have the "first past the post system", and tey are exemplars on corruption...

Ergo, there are much more achieveable things to tackle with electoral reforms and corruption that can and should be attempted...

On electoral reforms, the 2 big deals IMO are:
1. Prevent anyone with charges framed from contesting - this is exactly what is proposed in the new Bill apparently...
2. Funding - EC should make funding unlimited, but compulsarily disclosed.....

On corruption, we have discussed many times, but the big deals really relate to creating independent regulators across the board...And there is a huge pending list of important legislations - Land Ceiling, GST, DTC - all have importnt externalities on corruption and black money....

But in the meanwhile, we have some astrological predictions as well! Between revolutionary ideas to vedas to astrlogy - this is one eclectic thread!

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 25 Jun 2011 21:08

former CEC Shri Gopalaswami also reiterated that idea - he proposed that in all assembly and parliamentary elections, where the winning candidate under 'first pas the post' system gets less than say a third of the votes cast, a run-off poll between the top 2 candidates must be held. It will help ensure candidates then broaden their appeal to always include the middle rather than dabble in a coalition of the fringes as happens way too often these days with dozens of candidates in the fray for every municipal ward seat also...

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 25 Jun 2011 21:13

Incentivisation is driven by what the voter wants...the problem is that your idea of "incentives" might be different from what the large mass of voters want....Laloo may have been "corrupt", but for a time, for a large mass of Bihar voters, he represented a chance of physical safety against the excesses of upper caste landlords/religious extremists...(Laloo's record on Ranvir Sena excesses as well as communal riots at the margin was substantially better than his predecessor Congress govts)...Now, physical safety is as strong an incentive as it gets, and as rational too (Maslow's hierarchy starts with "physical" )...

it is very coincidental that Ranvir Sena was active and at the height of its murderous activities only during the time of Laloo. surprisingly, when JD/BJP combination came to power, it has become impossible for them to carry out their activities. it is very surprising indeed that a group of villainous thugs went around carrying out murders for years and then suddenly became incapable of doing it after the political regime changed. perhaps, Ranvir Sena was seen as a useful tool to polarize the victims into a certain political camp, and therefore their activities were deliberately allowed to continue, b/c it helped the Laloo/INC regime gather votes...

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Jun 2011 22:22

somnath wrote: BTW, the chestnut about "15% votes and you win" is a bit of, well, a chestnut...Can anyone point out a party that has won a majority by getting 15% of the votes? In the Prliament today, INC received 29% of the votes in 2008, but if one includes all its allies, I am sure the voteshare goes up to 40%+ range...Ditto for all assemblies as well..

You are very good in changing what is said by someone. Kudos to you on that.

Here is what I said:

strategy these days is to find a way to win with just 15% of votes polled.

I did not say that someone is already winning with 15%. What I was trying is using all sorts of manipulation, there is a danger of one winning the election even with 15% of votes polled. The strategy can be given serious thoughts in current degradation.

In the earlier days until Rajiv Gandhi times, INC used to have a decent percentage of votes even under the voting block using KHAM. The K part is different in different state and that is the leadership (mostly feudal portions of erstwhile India) which also facilitated rest of the HAM. I understand this does not apply to casteless WB society

. Those days INC candidates used to get at an average of 30% of votes polled in UP and Bihar and in some states they used to touch 45%. Though that is not perfect that still seems to be okay. But still a minority voter based victory.

It is easy to find faults with the opposition as divided, policyless or lacking vision and in modern days as facist etc. The opposition (non-congress) was always at a disadvantage with respect to the congress party not because congress party's great work but because of the systemic structure that was created and developed to work in favor of congress party.

In 21st century, Congress inspite of loss of credibility and also several portions of KHAM to different parties, it still possess the advantage of money (scores and scores earned and stashed) and an establishment (comfortable with congress because it is always win-win to have the goodies). It is a mafia of huge money and vested interests. As econmy grew the stashed money also multipled.

Now the new strategy seems to be divide the rest of the electorate by funding multiple caste parties so that every party that it funds can get 8 to 10% of votes while it get its base. With this strategy congress can still win with its reduced base. This is a flaw in the system that is exploited using the rampant stashed money that was earned over several years of rule and more so in the last five to seven years.

In essense INC creates its opposition and manages it too. However, the parties that want to break this logjam are seriously hampered with money. No law can stop the flow of money in elections. What is really needed is systemic reform of elections. We need to find a way that winner has 50% of the votes polled. Ex-CEC Goplaswamy was of this opinion since the previous UP elections. He was the CEC at that time.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Jun 2011 22:26

Satya saheb - pranaam. It took me four days to understand you previous post. Now you have given a lot of work for this weekend (again). Are you a PHD is some form of cryptography or what?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jun 2011 23:01

What incentive structure would allow for MPs to want to move to the more representative democratic system as outlined above, when all of them have won based on the current process which has obviously served these MPs well? Can you list out exactly what mechanism can be applied so as to make the executive + legislature see the importance of these reforms?

Lets focus on incentivization. What incentive does the current democratic setup afford for electoral reforms when the executive and legislature has obviously been the beneficiaries of the very same faults of the current democracy? What incentive is there for elimination of dynastic politics ?

Arjun Ji, though you have addressed this to Somnath Ji, i'll try and have a go. It's good you've been trying to talk incentive than disincentive (legal action) which the JLPB is focusing on. I tried to give a few points earlier on the same. So while a disincentive option should be there, a lack of incentive is also essential ironically.

There should not be an incentive to be incorruptible. Corruption is a result as we well know due to undue discretionary powers, unreformed electoral mechanisms etc. Once these go the incentive to attract corrupt people into politics decreases also. SO the people who enter will also be a cleaner and more genuine.

This process is not an overnight process, it's an ongoing one. It is as you mention much like a management system that evolves, than blames. That's why i had mentioned Risk management and NASA earlier. How they manage to reduce accidents. Not by the disincentive of a blame game, but by encouraging reporting of the most minor infractions and developing a culture where these are taken seriously.

The same applies to Govt processes. Much of it is not as transparent as we would like to see. The biggest pressure is an aware civil society. The Govt acts on it because it is accountable to the voters to some extent. There is both a top-down as well as a bottom to top push. Many reforms testify to both scenario's..but a lot needs to be done.

As far as the dynasty goes, there's a huge improvement from the 1st 40 years of independence and the last 20 years. The 1st 40: The dynasty ruled almost all the time and initiated nil reform. We wallowed under the License raj. The last 20 the dynasty max has ruled, that too by proxy 7 or 8 years. So there has been an improvement on that front, you cannot deny. Scams caught before the reforms were mostly whistle blower type findings. Scams now are exposed by GOI instruments and machinery themselves. SO actually the country despite the scams perpetuated by the political mafia is on a progressive path..not regressive. Now the disgust with the Maino faction is open and hardly disguised. It's obvious that the elections will throw a lot of interesting results. Talks of revolution and usurpation of the Constitution are not commensurate with aims to reduce or eliminate corruption. On the contrary that line of thought may end up creating tremendous unintended bureaucracy, unaccountable power structures and may not touch the mechanisms that actually perpetuate corruption. So we have to be very careful in giving support to people who are riding on this wave of disgust.

nikkap · Post by **nikkap** » 26 Jun 2011 00:04

harbans wrote:
Everything is Doctrine. Everything. All else is a reflection of it, Laws and Justice systems..poor or good. Applying to Nations, if you have a constitution, the country reflects and works towards it. Working towards it's goals is achieved by Policy initiatives. Like the reforms and de-licensing effort. Working policies and evolving is the tough part really. But it happens. The nation always reflects the values in it's Constitution. Same with Pakistan. It want's an Islamic Constitution. Now people are struggling to achieve that. Look at the anguish of the Islamists. Blasphemers are not stoned and executed, Kafirs running amok in Paki towns and cities..The GOP doing nothing to implement Sharia and shuttlecock burkha's in full force. Sacrilege truly to the Constitution. So what do the Taliban want? Laws? No, they want implementation of the Constitutional ideals. How do you implement the constitution, Indian or Sharia? Via Policy. So ergo, Policy is supreme.

So unless you have a dispute with the Constitution of India, you must look at policy initiatives. Even Constitutional amendments are game if the executive decides. So everything is policy. That's why the focus on Policy reforms here to reflect the constitution better. Hope that helps. Plus there is a good thread started by Arjun Ji thats crystallizing the sort of Nation and value systems we seek to develop and make.

Thankyou harbans ji for your reply. Now everyone please read my post it’s a request.

I am going to tell you something which govt don’t want you to know. DECEPTION AT THE HIGHEST I HAVE SPEND LAST FEW YEARS STUDYING LAW FIGURING OUT WHY GOVT TREAT US LIKE GARBAGE.THEN AFTER RESEARCH I CAME ACROSS SOMEONE WHO HAS CRACKED THE CODE .SO MY BROTHERS & SISTERS HERE IS THE SYSTEM THAT YOU ALL WANT TO CHANGE LET’S WORK TOGETHER TO CHANGE IT.
LOOK AT YOUR PASSPORT WHAT DOES IT SAY REPUBLIC OF INDIA. ( FOR GOD SAKE WHY DOESN’T IT SAY DEMOCRACY OF INDIA)
OUR FOREFATHERS SHED THEIR BLOOD SO THAT WE CAN BE A REPUBLIC NOT DEMOCRACY.A REPUBLIC IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.
In the Pledge of Allegiance we all pledge allegiance to our Republic, not to a democracy. "Republic" is the proper description of our government, not "democracy." I invite you to join me in raising public awareness regarding that distinction.
A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. : if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]

NOW ONE MOST IMPORTANT THING DEMOCRACY,CITIZEN,TAXPAYER ETC YOU THINK IT IS ENGLISH THAT YOU ARE READING NO IT’S NOT IT IS CALLED legalese.(IT’S THE LANGAUAGE THAT GOVT USE TO ENSLAVE YOU)

I feel sad that you guys are so smart & yet waste your energy on childish debate (policies,reforms,lokpal etc). NOW Earth shattering statement CONSTITUTION IS NOT MADE FOR YOU.ALL OF YOU ARE ABOVE THE CONSTITUTION.You want proof I can prove it right here right now but tell me how many of you want to learn because after ramlila maidan incident when I saw govt beat children & women I said to myself enough is enough it’s time to tell govt that their masters are back & I am looking for a group of sharp minded people who can understand what I am putting across gladly I found you guys.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Jun 2011 02:57

nakkap: How old/young are you? I am wondering, if I should respond to your post.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Jun 2011 03:03

somnath wrote: Its a reasonable idea in theory, though not sure if its practical at all levels of elections...The recent Assembly elections in WB was stretched for about 3 months in total - from announcement of dates to announcement of result..If there were to be a 2 stage election, we would have had a 6 monthly schedule ...And given the immense financial pressure that would put on all candidates/parties, the impact of money power will only increase....

Who says we need direct elections for all elected posts. Direct democratic elections in India based on where India is today is best practiced at the local level. It is this local level (Municipalities, Panchayats and Nagarpalikas) where we need direct elections and preferably without the first past the post system. Other state and central level elections can be indirect. (There are multiple options here) This is at least the opinion of many learned.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Jun 2011 03:10

Muppalla wrote:Satya saheb - pranaam. It took me four days to understand you previous post. Now you have given a lot of work for this weekend (again). Are you a PHD is some form of cryptography or what?

Muppalla Ji: Once you complete the understanding, can you please translate and post, since my mind cannot read beyond fifth grade English.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 26 Jun 2011 03:29

Regarding usage of money in elections - Why should there be any limit. Remove the limits and let the candidates spend billions. Open to even third party or surrogates' spending. The control should be that the money spent should be legal money and also not foreign money. The other point should be for campaigning and not for bribing. Allow even corporates to spend openly to their favorite candidates. The current laws are non-implementable and can be only helpful to do witch hunt against bakaras. EC should get out of the business of election spending limits etc. It should only monitor if the money is being spent for election campaigning and promotions. Let the income tax and other enforcement guys take over the auditing portion of money spent is legal etc.

We have too much of Gandhian stuff that is not sustainable and then we have Anna types who ask for more regulatory stuff to oversee such things. In between all these things the establishment knows how to selectively use these laws to do a witchhunt.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 26 Jun 2011 06:11

muppalla,
but is that (free money) based power distribution sustainable? large sections of the population will not be able to compete for positions of power. that will create discontentment.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 26 Jun 2011 07:12

^^^ Must agree with shaardula here.

More immediate is the concern that there's really no way to keep phoren money and influence away. Our bourses run on black money brought back in via P-notes. Our paper currency printing system is itself mortgaged to phoren vendors for everything from raw materials (paper, ink, template designs) and the actual printing process to fraud detection machines.

Heck, we saw what an investment of a mere few 100 million USD did for cheena in clintoon's campaign back in the early 90s. Gifted them pervasive access to sensitive tech and facilities (W88 anyone?) and market access (WTO, US markets) and what not. How will we prevent our eagerly venal netas from being bought out lock stock and barrel for a few dollahs more, eh?