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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 25 May 2012 04:02
by harbans
No Theo ji, the article that you posted says that says as you requote:
“The fact that uranium mining does not cause health hazard needs to be appropriately conveyed to the people so as to convince them and win their confidence,” the House panel said in its report reprimanding the atomic energy department.
So unless you have something that proves that the mining does cause health hazards or the House Panel is wrong, then it makes sense to quote Indian Uranium dependent NPPs production is low.

Now you say this:
DAE is heading for quick sand trying to argue the Uranium mining does not have a health hazard
.

So you've shifted the goalpost from the reported effect that Indian ore dependent NPPs running at low power to that DAE is lying and so is the House panels conviction in the article. Then that is BIG BIG news. Why post the inevitable effect of the fear that you say is rational, that the NPP is running at low output.

Since you believe strongly the House Panel and the DAE are lying and incorrect even though they have studies to prove it..you must lay out that and facts to support it. That requires you to disprove either the DAE studies or it's methodology. Else why should i take your word over DAE or the House Panel that they are heading to quicksand. The only way rational study and methodology heads to quick sand is brute irrational fear mongering and subsequent stoppage of work/ limitation of output.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 25 May 2012 06:08
by Theo_Fidel
Harbans Saab,

Hurt retire. Boss. :)

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 29 May 2012 21:38
by Theo_Fidel
DAE has released a 12-page Site selection statement.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 49098.aspx

Disclose Kudankulam nuclear reports, CIC tells govt

In an order that can open up nuclear installations for public scrutiny, transparency watchdog, the Central Information Commission, has asked the government to release safety analysis report of Kudankulam nuclear power plant minus information of strategic importance. It all started when the Nuclear Power Corporation of India (NPCIL) refused to provide safety analysis report and site evaluation report of reactors I and II of the Koodankulam plant to Right To Information (RTI) applicant SP Udayakumar, who is also leading the agitation against the nuclear plant in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu.

Kumar, who has been accused of using foreign money to fuel the agitation, filed an appeal with the transparency watchdog claiming that the information sought was wrongly denied on the ground that it was “classified”. Information Commission agreed with Kumar’s contention that terming a record as “classified” has not been stipulated as an exemption under the RTI law. NPCIL’s public information officer SK Srivastava had also claimed that information contained in safety analysis report was of strategic, scientific and security importance and cannot be shared.

Gandhi, however, said that the officer had failed to give specific reasons, as required under the RTI law, for applying these exemptions. In addition, similar information is disclosed on the government websites in United States, United Kingdom and Canada and denied of such information would amount to treating Indian citizens differently, he said. Srivastava’s only explanation was that the report contained designs of Russian manufacturers of the nuclear reactor, disclosing which may amount to breach of commercial confidence. “The PIO can severe such design details which has been provided by the supplier as per the provisions of the Act,” the CIC order instructing the NPCIL to place the information on its website, said. On the larger issue of putting such information in public domain, Gandhi said that disclosure of the reports would provide a comprehensive perspective to the citizens about holistic understanding of the Koondakulum nuclear power plant and will enable citizens to voice their opinions on nuclear safety issues. “All Safety Analysis Reports and Site Evaluation Reports, Site Evaluation reports and Environment Impact Assessment reports prepared before setting up nuclear plants should be displayed suo motto…such practice would be in accordance with the provisions of section 4 of the RTI Act and would result in greater trust in the government and its actions,” the CIC order said.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 30 May 2012 15:55
by vina
For any proponent of renewables, this must be extremely, extremely disquieting. Fundamentally, renewable as a base grid app , is not a proven business model in the long term and is backed by massive and huge subsidies all over the world.

Trouble is , what will happen when the music stops and the subsidy gravy dries up. Is it still competitive. Fundamentally, question is WHERE is the Payback economically for all that clean power investments?

The experience of Spain a world leader in renewable seems TERRIBLE.
Spain Ejects Clean Power Industry with Europe Precedent

By Alex Morales and Ben Sills - May 30, 2012

Spanish renewable-energy companies that once got Europe’s biggest subsidies are deserting the nation after the government shut off aid, pushing project developers and equipment-makers to work abroad or perish.

From wind-turbine maker Gamesa Corp. Tecnologica SA (GAM) to solar park developer T-Solar Global SA, companies are locked out of their home market for new business. These are the same suppliers that spearheaded more than $69 billion of wind and solar projects since 2004 that today supply more than 50 percent of Spain’s power demand on the most breezy and sunny days.

Saddled with a budget deficit more than twice the European Union limit and a ballooning gap between income and costs in its power system, Spain halted subsidies for new renewable-energy projects in January. The surprise move by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy one month after taking office helped pierce investor confidence in stable aid for clean energy across Europe.

“They destroyed the Spanish market overnight with the moratorium,” European Wind Energy Association Chief Executive Officer Christian Kjaer said in an interview. “The wider implication of this is that if Spanish politicians can do that, probably most European politicians can do that.”

Spain’s $69 billion of investment in power capacity from 2004 to 2011 was about triple the spending per capita in the U.S. in that period, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance data and U.S. Census Bureau population estimates. Most of the 2012-2013 spending will be for the legacy of projects approved before the aid cuts to wind, solar, biomass and co-generation.
Spending Skids

Investment in solar photovoltaic alone is headed to skid to as little as $107 million in 2013 from $879 million this year and $1.5 billion last year, New Energy Finance estimated. For new wind projects, investment should plunge to $963 million in 2013 and $244 million in 2014 from $2 billion this year.

T-Solar, which became the world’s biggest solar-farm operator by leveraging its Spanish business, currently has more than 40 running in Spain, Italy and India. While it still makes solar panels in Orense, Spain, they’re bound for Peru.

“We have an important pipeline of projects, and it’s 100 percent outside Spain right now,” T-Solar Managing Director Juan Laso, who also heads the country’s photovoltaic power association, said in a telephone interview. “If you take such a brutal measure, what you do is oblige the industry to move out,” he said of the January moratorium.
Solaria, Gamesa

Solaria Energia y Medio Ambiente SA (SLR), a Madrid-based solar panel maker, slumped as much as 19 percent today to 30 euro cents a share after restating its 2011 earnings. The company lost 96 million euros last year compared with a 6.5 million-euro profit in 2010.

Gamesa, the world’s fourth-biggest wind-turbine maker by market share according to Navigant Consulting Inc. (NCI)’s BTM Consult unit, plans to reduce the factory output of its Spanish plants to 1,000 megawatts by 2013 from 1,200 megawatts at the end of last year.

Instead, Zamudio-based Gamesa is adding capacity in India where it plans to open a third factory this year. In 2011, the company got less than 9 percent of its revenue in its home nation, down from almost 33 percent in 2009. Former CEO Jorge Calvet didn’t mention Spain on a May 10 call with analysts after announcing the company’s first quarterly loss.

“The future is outside of Spain,” said Sean McLoughlin, clean energy analyst at HSBC Bank Plc in London. “Gamesa already moved most of their business out of Spain and the moratorium only helps to accelerate and complete that process.”

Thirty-one years ago, Spain erected its first wind turbine at Tarifa, a city on the peninsula’s southern tip that juts into the gusty Straits of Gibraltar which divide Spain from Morocco.
German Model

In the 2000s, Spain copied the German clean-power aid model, as did nations from Portugal to Israel and Japan, increasing subsidies to a pinnacle in 2007. That’s when a law granted 444 euros ($556) a megawatt-hour for home rooftop solar panels feeding the power grid, compared with an average 39 euros paid to competing coal- or gas-fired power plants :eek: :eek: .

By 2009, the consumer bill for clean-energy aid had risen to 6 billion euros a year, ahead of the 5.6 billion euros in Germany, whose economy is almost four times bigger, according to the Council of European Energy Regulators.
Rolling Subsidy Cuts

After four successive reductions in subsidies since then, the government on Jan. 27 this year announced the moratorium on aid for new projects. The next month Spain saw itself drop out of the 10 most attractive markets for renewable-energy investors for the first time, due to reduced aid, on an Ernst & Young ranking. Spain led the list from October 2003 through July 2006.

“What happened in Spain is that abruptly, they changed the industry by changing the policy, and that doesn’t help build a sustainable industry,” said Stephan Ritter, general manager of General Electric Co.’s European renewables unit.

“The history of Spanish wind energy policy is ‘We’re going to keep it stable’ and suddenly out of the blue this comes, and it’s a bomb,” the EWEA’s Kjaer said.

The decline started before this year. The 75,466 renewable energy jobs that existed in Spain at the industry’s peak in 2008 shrank to 54,925 in 2010, according to the Renewable Energy Producers Association’s most recent data. Including indirect jobs, the tally slumped from 131,229 to 111,455.

Iberdrola SA (IBE), based in Bilbao, became the world’s biggest owner of wind farms, taking its Spanish experience abroad over the past decade. It campaigned for solar subsidies to be ended, because much of the power-tariff deficit sits on the utilities’ balance sheets straining their finances. Iberdrola, which also runs gas, hydro and nuclear plants, is Spain’s biggest utility.
Solar Drag

Solar energy was the biggest drag on the system, accounting for almost half of the annual 6 billion euros of liabilities and producing just above 2 percent of the power :eek: :eek: :eek: , said Eduardo Tabbush, an analyst in London at Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

With peak electricity demand at less than half of capacity, the country doesn’t need more power plants, he said. Spain has a capacity of 99 gigawatts, and peak demand of 44 gigawatts.

Spain’s power-system debt swelled to 23 billion euros as successive governments set electricity prices for consumers that didn’t cover the revenue utilities booked. Even with January’s moratorium, the electricity system racked up another 762 million euros of debt in the first two months of the year, according to the energy regulator.

Scapegoat for Policies?

“You’re making renewables a scapegoat for a problem that was created as a result of incredibly bad policies,” said Kjaer.

Spain is the world’s fourth-biggest wind energy market by cumulative installed capacity, and in solar photovoltaic power, it ties the U.S. for fourth, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The nation installed at least a gigawatt of wind power capacity every year since 2001, peaking at 3.5 gigawatts in 2007, according to the Spanish Wind Energy Association.

“At the moment there’s not a single project planned for 2013,” Heikki Willstedt, director of energy policy at the Spanish Wind Energy Association, said in an interview. “We have to keep a rhythm of installation over the next two or three years to keep the industry here in Spain.”

Solar power installations have been bumpier, totaling 550 megawatts, 2,760 megawatts, 70 megawatts, 390 megawatts and 430 megawatts for the five years through 2011, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance data.

Even before the moratorium was established, opportunities were dimming for renewable power in Spain. The so-called pre- registry of wind projects, which had been approved to receive above-market electricity prices, was set to expire at the end of 2012. And a retroactive cap was set on the number of hours when solar generators can earn higher rates.
Acciona, Abengoa

Acciona SA (ANA), a developer of wind and solar projects that in 2011 derived more than three quarters of electricity sales in Spain, has less than half of its pipeline of new projects for 2012 in Spain. Energias de Portugal SA’s renewables division, based in Spain, has less than a fifth of its pipeline there.

At Abengoa SA (ABG), the portion of revenue from Spain fell to 27 percent last year from 39 percent in 2007. Abengoa has 1,210 megawatts of solar thermal plants either in construction or in a pre-construction phase, a third of it in Spain.

“It reaches a point where if more interesting markets open up and you have to export to those markets, many times it’s better to take the factories there,” said Willstedt. “All of this know-how could be lost quickly, or it’ll move away, or it could be bought by competitors.”

In a country where unemployment in April rose to 24.4 percent, the subsidy moratorium puts more positions at stake, according to Willstedt.
’Five Years on Ice’

In its March 30 budget, Spanish Premier Rajoy’s government gave no sign of when it would bring back subsidies, and the National Energy Commission, an advisory body, has published scenarios including a suspension until 2017.

“I don’t know any sector that can be put on ice for 5 years and then be taken out intact,” said T-Solar’s Laso.

Abengoa Chief Executive Officer Manuel Sanchez Ortega said Feb. 28 in an interview he thought the moratorium would last 18 months at the most.

“Then the industry will pick up the pace again,” Ortega said. “If it lasts more than 18 months we are running the serious risk of driving all this industry out of the country.”

To be sure, Spain is headed to meet its European Union target of getting 20 percent of all its energy from renewables by 2020. The country generated 23 percent of its electricity from renewable sources in 2010.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 30 May 2012 19:58
by Neela
^^^
When the water dries up in the pool, we can then see who is nekkid hain ji?

Spain-ji, but please join the queue ji - Wind energy and UK - experiences

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 30 May 2012 20:21
by Vipul
India won't pull back on nuclear ambitions.

Ratan Kumar Sinha became chairman of India’s Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) on 30 April. A mechanical engineer and reactor designer, Sinha also heads the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) in Mumbai, where research activities include weapons-related work. He tells Nature that neither the Fukushima nuclear accident in Japan last year nor protests over safety at home have slowed India's nuclear programme: all efforts are being made to meet the country’s goal of generating 63 gigawatts of nuclear power by 2032, he says.

What are your goals and challenges as head of the AEC?

My dream is to have long-term energy independence for India through a mixture of energy options, including nuclear energy. The challenge is building a large number of nuclear power plants across the country close to population centres, while meeting high safety standards. I also dream of substantial growth in the application of radioisotopes and particle-accelerator technologies in agriculture, health care and industry.

What was the impact of Japan’s Fukushima accident on India’s nuclear programme?

We did a safety review of our plants, and concluded that existing designs are adequate to address external events such as tsunami and earthquakes. Even so, a few extra measures to introduce cooling water into the reactor from external sources, wherever needed, have been implemented or are under implementation.

India's nuclear power plants will use foreign-built reactors, but there have been delays in importing them. Will this cause you to revise the 63-gigawatt target?

No. At the moment we are not contemplating a revision in the target. There have been some delays in initiating the work on the ground, but significant progress has been made with international agreements and the domestic framework. We are hoping to launch the imported reactors during the period of India's current five-year plan (2012–17), and are simultaneously starting work on several indigenous reactors. The government has already approved enough sites ‘in principle’ to reach about 58 gigawatts.

What are the remaining hurdles?

Acquisition of land and relocation of people at some of the new sites, as well as resolution of matters related to the legal framework for vendors in India. Discussions on techno-commercial offers for two reactors in Kudankulam (with the Russian nuclear company Atomstroyexport) and another two in Jaitapur (with French energy company Areva) have reached an advanced stage. Discussions with two US vendors — Westinghouse Electric and GE Hitachi Nuclear Energy — are in progress. We are also working towards augmenting investment opportunities by incorporating joint ventures between the Nuclear Power Corporation of India and other public-sector companies. International cooperation of this magnitude in the nuclear field has been a first-time experience for us and it has, perhaps predictably, taken time to establish the rules. Hopefully, further progress will be faster.

What is the status of India’s thorium programme?

We are in the process of identifying a site for the advanced heavy water reactor, which will produce most of its power from thorium. We are also doing research into optimizing thorium fuel-cycle technologies, including ways to recycle thorium-based spent fuel.

What are India’s contributions to international projects?

Indian laboratories including BARC have been collaborating on the Large Hadron Collider at CERN near Geneva, Switzerland. India is also a member of the nuclear-fusion project ITER, for which we are participating in the fabrication of the largest cryostat in the world and all the associated components. Indian scientists and engineers are working on a Test Blanket Module for breeding tritium by nuclear transmutation under fusion neutron flux in ITER. These breeder blankets could establish the technical feasibility of heat extraction and tritium recovery.

You lead both India’s civilian nuclear programme and a nuclear-weapons lab. How do you keep the two programmes separate?

A separation plan has been formulated as part of the international civil nuclear-cooperation agreement. India has adopted the plan, meeting all its commitments.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 02:10
by RamaY
vina wrote:Cross posting.
For any proponent of renewables, this must be extremely, extremely disquieting. Fundamentally, renewable as a base grid app , is not a proven business model in the long term and is backed by massive and huge subsidies all over the world.

Spain Ejects Clean Power Industry with Europe Precedent

In the 2000s, Spain copied the German clean-power aid model, as did nations from Portugal to Israel and Japan, increasing subsidies to a pinnacle in 2007. That’s when a law granted 444 euros ($556) a megawatt-hour for home rooftop solar panels feeding the power grid, compared with an average 39 euros paid to competing coal- or gas-fired power plants :eek: :eek: .
Reminds me of an encounter with an American nuclear engineer recently -

I was flying in massa land and was reading a Telugu novel. This old man (must be in 60+) who was next to me was looking at me and the book curiously. After sometime he asked which Indian language it was. I said Telugu. He said, he figured out that it must be an Indian language because he has seen few Indian languages and they are similar.

Then he went on to praise Indian society. He opined that the society is filled with very smart and technical people. I asked him what made him to think so. Then he explained.

He was representing an american nuclear company and went to India to present their business proposal. The Indian delegation asked them that if they can sell the power at 6Rs/KWH = $0.12/KWH. His team said it is impossible!

Then the Indian team showed them Indian nuclear power plants and how they are producing the nuclear electricity at that price. 8) 8)

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 02:35
by svinayak
RamaY wrote: He was representing an american nuclear company and went to India to present their business proposal. The Indian delegation asked them that if they can sell the power at 6Rs/KWH = $0.12/KWH. His team said it is impossible!

Then the Indian team showed them Indian nuclear power plants and how they are producing the nuclear electricity at that price. 8) 8)
No wonder nobody is talking about solar projects in India with western prices. :D
US prices are determined by what the consumers can pay

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 03:55
by harbans
Ramay Ji..that was a nice experience and good to hear :)

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 05:07
by chaanakya
vina wrote:
Solar energy was the biggest drag on the system, accounting for almost half of the annual 6 billion euros of liabilities and producing just above 2 percent of the power :eek: :eek: :eek: , said Eduardo Tabbush, an analyst in London at Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

With peak electricity demand at less than half of capacity, the country doesn’t need more power plants, he said. Spain has a capacity of 99 gigawatts, and peak demand of 44 gigawatts.
Well m Solar PV power cost has already plumetted in India as the cost of SPV panels due to increased demand. Most likely grid parity would be achieved earlier than thought. Once that happens coupled with Open access policy for grid interconnect and exchange trading of Energy there would be large number of plants not dependent on subsidy. In fact if dispatch priority ( merit order of dispatch ) is given to RE I doubt any subsidy is required.

One just can not compare Indian scenario with that of Eu or USA or other countries.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 06:29
by Theo_Fidel
Meanwhile Germany is doing just fine...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/ ... FI20120526
"German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity per hour - equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity - through the midday hours on Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank said. Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry (IWR) in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power per hour fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50 percent of the nation's midday electricity needs."
------------------------------------------------------------------

Fully depreciated nuke plants without modern safety systems can inded produce power at less than 12 cents. The group of such plants also includes Fukushima for instance.

BTW said American plant is indeed being bought at crippling prices for Gujarat & Maha. So much for Indian smarts. :P

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 06:47
by RamaY
^^ Chanakya ji

I submitted proposals for concentrated solar power generation in India and at that time the proposed tariff rate was Rs 11/KWH. We didnt make it because the whole process was rigged with political favoritism and the main contention was for land allocation - 10 acres for 1MW, and not power generation.

Fast forward 2yrs and today you can buy an existing license for a price. We are yet to see a plant run for profit for more than 5 yrs. Without the implied RE business, we are yet to see a profitable business.

My criteria was Rs8/KWH and even that is not enough in a couple of years.

We are yet to see the reality.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 08:40
by Mihir
22 gigawatts of electricity per hour
That literally means that electricity generation increased at a rate of 22GW per hour.

Or that the head of the "renewable energy think tank" has no idea what the difference between a watt and a watt-hour is.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 09:39
by Amber G.
Mihir wrote:
22 gigawatts of electricity per hour
That literally means that electricity generation increased at a rate of 22GW per hour.

Or that the head of the "renewable energy think tank" has no idea what the difference between a watt and a watt-hour is.
From other sources it is 22 GW..and it is indeed impressive by any measure.

But this kind of silliness (not understanding even the unit of power) shows ddm writers and editors are clueless..

... Like one giving radioactivity not in becquerel (which means integration per second) but becquerel per hour (which makes no sense) .. (No I am not making it up this thread had many posts about that) ..

The complete lack of understanding of even the simplest units or concepts is mind boggling...Even in this thread, and even after pointing it out multiple times people not only confuse between energy and power ( Joule / watt) but even joule and coulomb or energy and thermal capacity ... ityadi..What is even worse is that ignorance is combined with arrogance..

Meanwhile for rational people .. check out ..lot of information in the report..
WHO on Fukushima doses
A preliminary report from the World Health Organisation (WHO) has estimated the radiation doses that residents of Japan have received in the year following the accident at Fukushima Daiichi. Dose rates in most Fukushima homes outside the 20 kilometre evacuation zone were comparable to reference levels for radon.
The nuclear accident at Fukushima Daiichi released significant amounts of radioactivity into the environment, with the majority of this dispersed by air along a track stretching about 50 kilometres to the northwest.
The WHO's study used radiological surveys and data available up to September 2011 and considered the location of people when the contamination occurred in March 2011. Japanese authorities acted quickly to evacuate people from within 20 kilometres of the plant and this uninhabited zone is the only part of Japan not covered by the study. Another 'deliberate evacuation area' was later declared to the northeast of the plant and it was conservatively assumed that residents stayed for four months before leaving.
The report noted that probably over 30% of the dose to Japanese citizens exposed to the contamination would have been received during the first year, with less than 70% to follow over a period of about 15 years. This is based on the experience of the Chernobyl accident of 1986, allowing for variation in the actual mix of isotopes released.
The report's headline conclusion is that most people in Fukushima prefecture would have received a radiation dose of between 1 and 10 mSv during the first year after the accident. This compares to levels of about 2.4 mSv they would have received from unavoidable natural sources, and the legal limit of 1 mSv from nuclear plants in normal operation. In two places the doses were higher - between 10 and 50 mSv.
<snip>.
For perspective, remember radiation doses in some parts of Kerala are in 20-30 mSv/Yr (even up to 70 mSv range in some places)... and in some areas in Iran up to 200+mSv /Yr ..People have been living in these area for centuries...
(Average person in USA received about 6mSv/ year in 2011 ... There are places like Chennai (or Denver in USA) where just the background radiation is higher than this..

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 09:56
by chaanakya
RamaY wrote:^^ Chanakya ji

I submitted proposals for concentrated solar power generation in India and at that time the proposed tariff rate was Rs 11/KWH. We didnt make it because the whole process was rigged with political favoritism and the main contention was for land allocation - 10 acres for 1MW, and not power generation.

Fast forward 2yrs and today you can buy an existing license for a price. We are yet to see a plant run for profit for more than 5 yrs. Without the implied RE business, we are yet to see a profitable business.

My criteria was Rs8/KWH and even that is not enough in a couple of years.

We are yet to see the reality.
RamaY Garu. 10 MW CSP project is already operational in Bikaner. You can surely find out details from google.

CSP was just a component of NSM as there is no prior experience in this area in India. You can check the target for CSP plants.

As per my understanding Land is not allotted but developer has to arrange for required land. Tariff that you indicated could be competitive but I can not refute your charges of political rigging. This business of license smacks of 2G scam.

Recently Govt has launched UNDP/UNEP GEF programme for promotion of CSP technologies. You may be aware of this. Better bet for you would be to get associated with some of the nodal agencies like Gujrat (GEDA) and set up plant in their solar park and go for REC route with open access system.
Being a nascent field lot of bottlenecks including lack of capabilities among decision makers would have to be faced. One needs to create capabilities and awareness to utilise the opportunities else political favouritism would hold sway.

However it is OT here in nook dhaaga.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 10:14
by vina
"German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity per hour - equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity - through the midday hours on Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank said. Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry (IWR) in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power per hour fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50 percent of the nation's midday electricity needs."
Problem with that is on the other hours of even Friday and Saturday, and all the other days of the week, there was a back up of that 22 Gigawatts that went idle! So really that IS the problem with a whole bulk of the renewables (wind and solar being most notorious), in that it requires a huge back up of the installed capacity! And that is monumentally wasteful in the overall scheme of things, even , if somewhere in the far far future, Solar does become economically viable with say conventional or nuclear.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 10:19
by vina
RamaY wrote:^^ Fast forward 2yrs and today you can buy an existing license for a price. We are yet to see a plant run for profit for more than 5 yrs. Without the implied RE business, we are yet to see a profitable business.
.
Yes, very astute observation . That business cannot break even , unless via direct cash subsidy or a cross subsidy from a RE business. In fact RE is the killer for this kind of vast solar farms. Just the cost of land alone will be humongous.
As per my understanding Land is not allotted but developer has to arrange for required land. Tariff that you indicated could be competitive

The peak rate for 'top tier" , all electric customers in Bangalore is of the order of close to 5 Rs or so, must be one of the most expensive power in India for domestic use. So even at Rs 8 (which wont even come close to Rs 8), you still need to give a subsidy of Rs 3 to ME, while in the current scheme of things with Rs 5 per unit, I subsidize a whole lot of people!

The entire economics will turn upside down if there was a largescale replacement of basic grid power with solar. The subsidy burden will be back breaking.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 10:29
by Amber G.
vina wrote: The entire economics will turn upside down if there was a largescale replacement of basic grid power with solar. The subsidy burden will be back breaking.
You may like to check out.. say..
Germany moves to bolster grid
Germany has announced plans to upgrade and expand its electricity grid over the next decade in order to help renewable energy sources fill the gap left by its phase-out of nuclear power. An investment of some €20 billion ($25 billion) will be needed.
According to the grid operators, "The nuclear phase-out and the increased supply of renewable energy are major challenges for the current infrastructure and require further development of the networks." Their plan identifies the potential grid investments that may be needed in the coming period on the basis of various scenarios.
On-shore high-voltage grids in Germany will have to undergo considerable expansion in the next decade, the companies say. This expansion is necessary to facilitate German's energy transition and the development of the European electricity market. In addition to the upgrading of 4400 km of existing transmission lines, the grid operators anticipate that the construction of some 3800 km of new high-voltage lines will be needed over the next ten years. These network upgrades and additions would require investment of some €20 billion ($25 billion) by 2022.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 10:41
by Sanku
A polite reminder, this is the nuclear thread, so better to perhaps focus on nuclear matters?

If there is nothing happening on Nuclear energy front due to issues with Nuclear engineering --> bad mouthing renewables is not likely to fix it.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 11:44
by Amber G.
India declined to sell nuclear technology to Iran, Iraq and Libya
New Delhi: India declined to sell nuclear technology to Iran, Iraq and Libya in the 1980s in spite of being offered "huge" sums of money, said a leading defence journal.
According to a report in the current issue of India Strategic (www.indiastrategic.in), all the three countries offered "huge" sums in the early 1980s, but the then prime minister Indira Gandhi said a firm "No". Surprisingly, then Iraqi president Saddam Hussein was most upset and when his persistent efforts yielded no response, he went to the extent of sending only a junior minister for her funeral.

Iran asked for nuclear technology as well as a military training school for its officers somewhere in India, again offering substantial monetary compensation for both, but Indira Gandhi said India would not play its friends against one another.
<snip>

Iran and Iraq were then in the thick of their long, eight-year war, which cost each side heavy casualties and meant no victory for any side. Gandhi's special envoy for the Gulf, Romesh Bhandari, in fact was then shuttling between the Iranian and Iraqi capitals of Teheran and Baghdad to forge peace.
<snip>

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 11:57
by Amber G.
असतो मा सद्गमय...

Worth reading the whole article .. some excerpts below...,

It's time to stop being scared of nuclear power
Three places: Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima. And three more: Banqiao, Machhu II, Hiakud. Most people react with horror to the first trio, while the second three locations usually draw a blank look. In fact, the latter were the sites of three major hydroelectric dam failures: in China and India in 1975, 1979 and 1980, which were directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. In contrast, the death toll directly associated with radiation exposure from the three best-known civil nuclear accidents is estimated by the World Health Organisation to be conservatively about 50, all associated with Chernobyl.

Nuclear power has had a pretty bad press recently. In the post-Fukushima world, major power companies such as the German-owned E.ON and RWE-npower have taken the decision not to invest in building new nuclear power stations in Britain, citing costs in the current economic climate.

Some activists argue that the economics of construction and operation of nuclear power stations are sufficiently prohibitive that increased investment in safe, renewable power supplies such as offshore wind projects are a more attractive option.


But why is nuclear power now so expensive? I suggest that it is at least partly due to an inflated analysis of the potential health risks associated with civilian nuclear waste in particular, and an exaggerated assessment of "nuclear risk" in general.

....
Indeed, "nuclear risk" is in a category all of its own, as was seen all too clearly last year when a major natural disaster, the Tohoku earthquake, which killed tens of thousands of people, was quickly overshadowed in the global collective consciousness by the consequent nuclear incident at the Fukushima plant, which killed no one.
<snip>

....
Nuclear technology then rapidly expanded as a result of the Manhattan Project, with the construction of superweapons capable of unleashing the explosive power of uncontrolled nuclear fission and, later, fusion. Iconic images of mushroom clouds became fixed in our minds following the devastations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And so, for many, civilian nuclear power and images associated with nuclear weapons remain intimately linked.

I believe that this emotional link between defence and civilian applications of nuclear technology constrains a rational, scientific analysis of the uses and relative benefits of nuclear power. Certainly, fears of the biological effects of invisible radiation can lead to some bizarre behaviour.

The Italian foreign ministry, for example, recommended that its citizens flew out of Tokyo to avoid potential radiation exposure in the first couple of weeks following the Fukushima leak. While the radiation levels in the Japanese capital rose significantly above normal, they remained lower than the typical average background radiation levels in Rome, leading to the bizarre situation of individuals being relocated to places with higher radiation levels than those they were leaving.

And a pervasive myth has taken hold that even tiny amounts of radiation are unsafe. In reality, this cannot be so, as humans have evolved in an invisible sea of naturally occurring radioactivity. Much of this arises from radioactive forms of potassium, uranium and thorium; remnants of the Earth's formation more than 4 billion years ago. Human bodies are bubbling with radioactivity, with around 7,000 atoms decaying each second due to radioactivity from potassium-40 and carbon-14.

Our understanding of the biological effects of radiation has been developed over more than 80 years, following the first meeting of the First International Congress of Radiology in London in 1925. Radiation-induced effects such as radiation sickness were noted to occur with exposure to specific organs only above a well-defined threshold dose. As to cancer, the probability of a malignant tumour arising is thought to be related to the quantity and type of radiation to which an individual has been exposed.


There have been three major accidents in nuclear power production in more than 14,000 "reactor years" of operational, civilian nuclear power. The reactor core meltdown at Three Mile Island in 1979 made headlines but the melted fuel remained contained within the main reactor vessel, with no measurable radiation health consequences.

At Chernobyl a steam explosion blew out the reactor-holding vessel, the reactor core caught fire and a radioactive plume belched into the atmosphere for 10 days, with an estimated five per cent of the entire reactor core released. Twenty eight people, mostly firefighters, died within a few weeks of exposure from acute radiation syndrome. According to the World Health Organisation, an additional 19 died between 1987 and 2004 of cancers which might have been radiation-induced.

In the 20 years following 1986, no statistically significant health effects on the wider population could be correlated to caesium-137 exposure from the Chernobyl release.
....
Our irrational fear of the atom stands in the way of the development of nuclear power and its potentially vital contribution to the long-term energy needs of an ever-increasing and energy-greedy world population.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 12:26
by Sanku
Amber G. wrote:असतो मा सद्गमय...
If only, if only.

Hiakud. Most people react with horror to the first trio, while the second three locations usually draw a blank look[/b]. In fact, the latter were the sites of three major hydroelectric dam failures: in China and India in 1975, 1979 and 1980, which were directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands.


Hirakud dam failure in 1980 resulting in deaths of tens and thousands ?

I really wish these people would shut up and not lose the little remaining credibility they have by making such statements.

I suggest that it is at least partly due to an inflated analysis of the potential health risks associated with civilian nuclear waste in particular, and an exaggerated assessment of "nuclear risk" in general.


So he pooh pahs the risk associated with Nuclear waste. I wonder why then the doctors associated with these fields dont realize what is happening?

I am surprised by the confidence with which a few scientists can come up and imply that all other scientists expect them are daft.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 12:58
by arnab
Actually the Banquio dam disaster in 1975 is the largest man made disaster ever. Officially China admitted (after 30 years) that it killed around 26,000 people and impacted the lives of 10 million. Other statistics cite over 170,000 being killed - much more than chernobyl.

Not sure about Hirakud - possibly some people point to its inability to control floods (leading to deaths) as the cause.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 13:03
by Sanku
arnab wrote:Actually the Banquio dam disaster in 1975 is the largest man made disaster ever. Officially China admitted (after 30 years) that it killed around 26,000 people and impacted the lives of 10 million. Other statistics cite over 170,000 being killed - much more than chernobyl.

Not sure about Hirakud - possibly some people point to its inability to control floods (leading to deaths) as the cause.
This mixing of fact and fiction to paint a particular picture is old hat. Yes The Banquio dam disaster is well known and documented. However there has been no failure at Hirakud.

Yes some time Hirakud has not been able to control floods, but that area was quite flood prone, and Hirakud has helped, if not completely solved the problem.

Such tactics raise questions about the intent and truthfulness of the author frankly.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 13:07
by arnab
Sanku wrote:Such tactics raise questions about the intent and truthfulness of the author frankly.
Why? for instance a while ago - your inability to identify Capt Saurabh Kalia correctly in a photograph did not (in your mind atleast) deter from the 'thrust' of your argument. In this case too - the thrust of the argument remains correct.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 13:22
by Amber G.
^^^ In any case, these three dams together (as was done for TMI, Chernobyl and Fukushima) did cause deaths in tens of thousands...

(And we are not even counting or talking about "suicides" which I am sure ... let me quote ....
To downplay the huge impact of Hirakud disaster, including the surge in suicides in the evacuees whose life has been destroyed and are now dying due to sheer hopelessness, is frankly inhumane, boorish and in my view "criminal"

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 14:04
by Sanku
arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:Such tactics raise questions about the intent and truthfulness of the author frankly.
Why? for instance a while ago - your inability to identify Capt Saurabh Kalia correctly in a photograph did not (in your mind atleast) deter from the 'thrust' of your argument. In this case too - the thrust of the argument remains correct.
It obvious.

The photograph spoke for itself, did not depend on the people in it for it to make the statement it did.

However whether Hirakud had a accident or not, does influence the argument he is making.

So if it is a honest mistake, it dilutes the persons basic point at word go, and if it not a mistake (like mis-identification of one person in a picture) -- then its propaganda.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 14:09
by Sanku
Amber G. wrote:^^^ In any case, these three dams together (as was done for TMI, Chernobyl and Fukushima) did cause deaths in tens of thousands...
Yes this together is a nice game, someone had posted "Nuclear and renewable to make up for 50% of new energy" and the reality "nuclear 1% and renewable 49%" was quietly hidden.

What next lump Coal and Aaloo together and make a song and dance about its calorific content :lol: ?

Silly propaganda.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 14:32
by amit
^^^^

Sanku has got a valid point. One shouldn't lump the three together.

However, there in lies the catch.

Minus Chernobyl there have been zero deaths from nuclear accidents despite more several hundred thousands of man hours of reactor power generation at around 90 per cent PLF since the 1950s. Heck even if you include Chernobyl - which used a reactor design that's been discarded - the total number of deaths is lower than any other generation type.

If I'm not mistaken weren't "thousands of Japanese" supposed to die due to radiation poisoning? I wonder what happened. But the small foot note is that a dam burst in Fukushima prefecture due to the earthquake swept away 4,000 homes.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 19:41
by Theo_Fidel
Nuclear kills over time. The fact that large chunks of the planet have been banned for human occupation is what allows nuclear to claim this. By that measure since CO2 is such a problem we should evacuate the planet. then we can claim zero deaths from coal as well. No medical professional will ever claim that zero death thing. It is only paid promoters who say such things.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 20:41
by vina
Theo_Fidel wrote:Nuclear kills over time. The fact that large chunks of the planet have been banned for human occupation is what allows nuclear to claim this. By that measure since CO2 is such a problem we should evacuate the planet. then we can claim zero deaths from coal as well.
In effect, what you are saying is that since nuclear is "dangerous" per current state , we should abandon it. However, that in my opinion is not smart and really not the route of progress.

For eg, when James Watt first started using coal to produce engines, it was EXTREMELY dangerous , boilers bursting very common, technology was crude, incredibly so, even if they they operated at around very low pressures at that time (just think of all the gigantic sizes of all the Victorian era coal driven machinery you see in museums), efficiency was terrible. Then people took the "even more dangerous" step of increasing pressure (200 psi), machine sizes shrank, enough for it to be put on carriages that ran on steel rails and on ships, which resulted in a massive revolution in transport. In search of efficiency, people started doing EVEN MORE dangerous things like super heating and now you are talking of supercritical and ultra critical boilers, where if there is even a pinhole of steam leaking, you cant see it and it will cook you alive before you can realize it, and oh yeah, if one of those things explode, it will be a massive catastrophe!

The good thing is as engineering progresses, you learn new things and apply it, making things safer and better. Codes evolve, standards developed, processes and procedures standardized, people trained, all that towards a safe and secure system, that allows you to have the cake and eat it too.

The "safety" of coal is the result of close to 200 odd years of engineering improvement . In nuclear we have hardly scratched the surface. I think progress will take care of it and in the long run, we wont be mortally scared of Nuclear, just as we arent scared of ultra critical boilers today!

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 20:46
by chaanakya
vina wrote:
As per my understanding Land is not allotted but developer has to arrange for required land. Tariff that you indicated could be competitive

The peak rate for 'top tier" , all electric customers in Bangalore is of the order of close to 5 Rs or so, must be one of the most expensive power in India for domestic use. So even at Rs 8 (which wont even come close to Rs 8), you still need to give a subsidy of Rs 3 to ME, while in the current scheme of things with Rs 5 per unit, I subsidize a whole lot of people!

The entire economics will turn upside down if there was a largescale replacement of basic grid power with solar. The subsidy burden will be back breaking.
Peak Rate is about Rs 8-11 Kwh. ( on energy exchanges)
If general tariff for contracted demand is about Rs 4 ( I am quoting old rate) and if demand exceeds the additional power is charged at 150% of prevailing rates for Industries. Coupled with Power factor penalty rates could be still higher.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 20:50
by vina
chaanakya wrote:Peak Rate is about Rs 8-11 Kwh. ( on energy exchanges)
If general tariff for contracted demand is about Rs 4 ( I am quoting old rate) and if demand exceeds the additional power is charged at 150% of prevailing rates for Industries. Coupled with Power factor penalty rates could be still higher.
In plain Inglees, industry pays the subsidy. So what happens to Industry's viability and competitiveness, without which there will be no jobs around and no demand either!

Comes back to square 1 of it not being viable without subsidy (cash, real estate, cross subsidy, anything).

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 21:02
by chaanakya
No it means you sell power at cost to Industries and charge less from Domestic consumers which is about 35% of total consumption. High T&D losses account for the rest.
Last I knew MMS was still saying India growing at rates of 6-8%

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 21:18
by Theo_Fidel
vina wrote:In effect, what you are saying is that since nuclear is "dangerous" per current state , we should abandon it. However, that in my opinion is not smart and really not the route of progress.
The steam boiler thing is inaccurate. 10 minutes later you can walk through the destroyed factory. You still can't walk through Pripyat without time limits. It's only been 26 years? Same thing with Fukushima.

Rs 5 per unit of power too is non-viable long term. TNEB has essentially gone 'bondi' trying to supply power at that rate. Debt burden of Rs 40,000 crore IIRC. German retail electric rate is ~ 25 cents a kw. Industry hasn't gone kaput nah. Even here in industrial Midwest retail electric rates are 17 cents per kw on average. More for HT. India suffers such vicious shortages because electricity is too cheap and unprofitable to produce. The only way to control loss is to not supply electricity at all.

Confidence in nuclear would improve if every 10 years or so we don't end up with a $700 Billion (latest Fukushima estimate) cleanup nightmare. Or are you saying Nuclear is good for you only hence cleanup not necessary. You know, the banana banana banana option....

The risk to reward ratio is deeply negative for Nuclear in its present form. Esp. with the DAE in charge. Everyone seems to think the people will get used to the radiation issue over time. The truth is people were very comfortable with radiation. Everyone trusted the nuclear complex include myself. It is only now after taking a deep look and having read both pro&anti books by the dozen that I realize what a house of cards it is. It the actions/arrogance of the nuclear complex that have lost it goodwill of the people. You can see the shock in KKNPP where the same church and people who welcomed them 15 years ago is now deeply resentful and bitterly opposed. At which point the folks were accused of being traitors. Yes, GOI may have cracked a few skulls and won this round but DAE has lost its most faithful constituency in TN. Opposition will get much worse in future.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 21:32
by vina
charge less from Domestic consumers which is about 35% of total consumption
I don't understand. So , who pays for the Rs 3 per unit (Rs 8 cost, but only Rs 5 charged) for the domestic consumer (who is only 35%) ,ignoring the T&D losses , if the remaining 65% (industry) dont pay , but pay only actual cost (of Rs 8 per unit).

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 21:48
by chaanakya
Who pays for Oil companies losses?

Thats how Power sector is still skewed and Non viable in the long run and would cause power companies to go bust, just as it happened to Electricity dept turned Board turned companies. If proper rates are factored , and as you say without hidden subsidy, things would be better.
Even RE would compete with best of the sources. However I would also point out that differential rates are determined on many parameters which are not necessarily subsidy oriented.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 22:15
by RamaY
Gerard wrote:Interview with Gennady Yevstafiev, retired Lieutenant General of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service.
http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_05_01/73456303/
Pertinent part for this thread...
But interestingly enough India has close cooperation with the United States in nuclear matters. So, do you think that could be a leverage for the United States to apply some pressure to India?

No, I don’t think so. You know, the agreement with Bush Administration signed with India about scientific cooperation, but mainly in a nuclear field, in 2007 is of the particular interest to the United States because they know the Indians have a huge energy program which is based mostly on, due to rather poor energy resources, it is based mostly on the development of the nuclear industry. We benefit from this idea of Indians develop nuclear industry, Kudankulam which we are going to convert into something very spectacular.

But the Indian request is huge because Indians are planning within 20-25 years to build about 50 nuclear energy reactors and American industry which is not producing nuclear reactors now for the use in the United States, they have stopped producing them to the United States industry, they badly need some market for the advanced technologies in that. By the way, French are in the same boat, though of course French industry is of a much smaller size. That’s why the fight for Indian market in nuclear technology is basically a commercial fight for the share of Indian market. But the market is going to be so big that for the next 15 years there will be enough space for everybody to work on this market.

Mind you that Indians are very serious customers and they demand a lot of set benefits when they sign agreements and these set benefits would of course sponsor the Indian industry in developing their own technologies. And sooner or later they will produce more than 50% of what they need for themselves.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 22:40
by Sanku
^^^

The tone of voice when a Rus talks about India is undeniably friendly, it is that of a equal, there is respect and appreciation.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 31 May 2012 23:16
by PratikDas
Not so sure about equal, but there is certainly plenty of respect and enough appreciation. The same cannot be said of the vast majority of other countries.