Indian Naval Discussion

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Jul 2012 20:37

Austin wrote:New variant of RD-33MK will be useful for Mig-29K.

RD-33: output on the rise

At the same time with the full-rate production in Moscow, Klimov JSC in St. Petersburg continues to refine the RD-33MK and RD-93. According to Klimov, the company’s jet engine priorities are the development of the modified RD-93MA with the thrust enhanced to 9,300 kgf for a foreign customer and the development of the upgraded RD-33MKM with a thrust of 9,500 kgf for the MiG corporation.

for the JF 17 s for PAF ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Jul 2012 21:19

Austin,

The Russian magazine you posted (cover YAK-130), IIRC, stated that the RuN is purchasing some MiG-29Ks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2012 22:12

The RD-93MA engine will go for JF-17 and RD-33MKM will go in into RuN Mig-29K and possible Mig-35

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jul 2012 06:19

V.interesting report on Oz's Collins class refits and future plans,including long av clip of the Collins class,and featuring
Rear Admiral Rowan Moffitt talking about the use of submarines in Australia,comparative designs,Oz's needs,etc.

Xcpt:

Green weed covering its black sides, rust streaks on its hatches and fittings, HMAS Collins is in from a rough winter ocean patrol at the Stirling naval base, near Perth.

Most of the crew have dispersed on shore leave. ''We don't smell each other when we're at sea,'' says the watch officer Sub-Lieutenant Dan O'Connor in a tour of the sub's narrow confines, including its crammed bunkrooms, tiny shower and toilet compartments and single washing machine for up to 75 crew and trainees. ''When we step off, partners tend to reel back.''

Soon, the 16-year-old sub will go to Adelaide to be hauled out of the water at the Australian Submarine Corporation shipyard for its second eight-yearly full refit, emerging in a couple of years with rewound electric motor and generators.
Collins Class Submarine HMAS Sheean

Shipshape ... workers help refit HMAS Sheean at the asc dockyard in Adelaide. Photo: Ben Rushton

The Collins will also have a new Raytheon combat system linking its Mark 48 torpedoes and Harpoon missiles with the targeting data from its electronic intelligence receivers, the sonar receptors placed around its hull and the long cable towed from its ''stingray'' tail and, more traditionally, its optical periscope.
Advertisement

The Collins refit will complete the upgrade of the class that bears its name, putting all six vessels among the best ''front-end'' submarines in the world, with attack capabilities matching those of the US hunter-killer fleet, says Rear-Admiral Rowan Moffitt, in change of Australia's new submarine program.

''No other navy uses that combat system than the United States and us, or the weapon,'' Moffitt says. ''Other navies who use the Mark 48 have the export version. We don't. We have the same one as the US Navy, because we developed it with them.''

Widely seen as ''dud subs'' after well publicised problems - unreliable diesels of a unique design from a now-defunct manufacturer, faulty electrical trains, vibrating telescopes, noisy hull flows, cavitating propellers and a combat system that wouldn't talk to the rest of the sub - the Collins class may bely that reputation.

The vessels even have some of the capabilities seen for the fleet of 12 ''future submarines'' envisaged in the 2009 Defence white paper. They can carry Tomahawk land attack cruise missiles and launch them through their torpedo tubes, lay mines (if we had them), and (quietly) land special forces for precision operations.

Sub fleet chief Commodore Greg Sammut, and the chief executive of shipbuilder ASC, Steve Ludlam, insist availability will soon be up to a respectable three of the six submarines at any time; that they can serve out their planned 30-year service life; and quite possibly be kept in operation a bit beyond that. The hard learning experience with Collins colours selection of the replacement submarines - but not in ways that most people think.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/subma ... z205AGV6OY

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 09 Jul 2012 06:24

Austin wrote:The RD-93MA engine will go for JF-17 and RD-33MKM will go in into RuN Mig-29K and possible Mig-35

Are these RD-33MKM going to be fitted on rest of 29Ks ordered by IN?

Why didn't IAF go for these engines for Mig 29 upgrade?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 09 Jul 2012 10:37

Scrappy Indian Navy Copter Bid Nears End

Nothing seems to sail smoothly

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/07/scr ... nears.html

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 09 Jul 2012 18:42

MiG-29s Begin Sea Trials Aboard India’s New Aircraft Carrier
July 9, 2012, 1:30 AM

Open-sea testing of the new Indian Navy aircraft carrier Vikramaditya and her primary weapons, in the form of MiG-29K/KUB deck fighters, means that the MiGs won’t be making appearance here at the 2012 Farnborough International Airshow. The ship has been bought from Russia to replace the former British-built HMS Hermes, which India acquired in 1986 and renamed Viraat. “Resources of our flight-test department are heavily engaged in the carrier trials, and this is why we are not able to demonstrate our aircraft at this year’s show at Farnborough,” Elena Fedorova, spokeswoman for Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RAC MiG), told AIN.

Following completion of extensive refit and modernization work, the Vikramaditya departed Severodvinsk harbor on June 8, 2012. She will spend the rest of the year in the White and Barents seas, ahead of anticipated delivery to the customer in time for Indian Navy Day on December 4.

The Vikramaditya is a “through-deck” carrier of the Stobar (short-takeoff but arrested-recovery) type with a complement of 1,924 crew. Originally a heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser, in 1978 the ship was delivered to what was then the Soviet navy, with which is served under the name Admiral Gorshkov until 1998.

Then the cruiser was offered to India as an alternative to an Invincible-class “Harrier-carrier” available from the UK. A deal was struck in March 2004, leading the cruiser into Russia’s Sevmash dry dock in December 2005 for conversion, which has included significant content from UK systems suppliers, as well as equipment from Croatia, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Japan, Finland, France, Norway, Poland and Sweden. She was relaunched in November 2008 as a Project 11430 aircraft carrier, and now features a 14-degree ski ramp and three arrestor wires.

At face value, India’s new aircraft carrier will not compare too badly with the new carriers ordered by the British Royal Navy, and has certainly worked out a lot cheaper. With the inclusion of separate contracts for training, ground equipment and shore infrastructure installations, the bill totals approximately $1.9 billion. By comparison, the bill for the UK’s new Queen Elizabeth-class carrier is in the region of $4.7 billion.

The new Royal Navy carrier has the same 920-foot length as the Vikramaditya, but a larger full displacement at 65,600 metric tons, versus 45,300 metric tons, and a larger hangar to house a fleet of more than 40 F-35 Lightning II fighters, plus Merlin and Lynx Wildcat helicopters. The Indian carrier will accommodate a mix of between 30 and 34 MiG fighters and Kamov helicopters.

None of the Indian Navy’s fleet of aircraft will be deployed for the sea trails of the Vikramaditya. Instead, RAC MiG has provided MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB prototypes. Also involved in the sea trials is a MiG-35D demonstrator believed to have been outfitted with an arrestor hook–a decision influenced by the crash of a purpose-built MiG-29KUB at the Russian defense ministry firing range at Akhtubinsk in June 2011. The MiG-29K lifted by crane onto the Vikramaditya’s flight deck last year and serves as a full-scale mockup. First flown in 1988, this veteran aircraft had an extensive operational life before being grounded.

New MiGs

India took delivery of 16 MiG-29K/KUBs in 2010-2011. They replaced Sea Harriers in the Black Panther squadron at Hansa naval airbase in Goa province. Last year it firmed up an option for 29 additional MiGs, which are due for delivery between now and 2014.

The MiG-29K/KUB differs from the classic MiG-29 Fulcrum in having a reworked airframe with 15 percent more composite materials. It comes with a larger folding wing with extensive high-lift surfaces for shorter takeoff and landing distances. Maximum gross weight has been increased to 24.5 metric tons and the weapons load to 4.5 tons.

The latest MiG-29s also feature higher-thrust Fadec-equipped Klimov RD-33MK engines with smokeless combustors, digital fly-by-wire flight controls, open-architecture systems on the MIL-STD-1553B databus and a lowered radar signature. Increased range is achieved through enlarged inner tanks and in-flight refueling system. The aircraft can be refueled in flight using the PAK-1MK pod.

The Russian defense ministry ordered 24 deck fighters from RAC MiG in February 2012. Deliveries are scheduled for 2013-2015. MiG’s general manager, Sergei Korotkov, said the ministry order came after the company spent many years on development, testing and setting up series production of the MiG-29K. “The MiG-29K and other versions derived from the baseline model shall ensure a stable workload for the company in the middle term,” he added.

AESA Radar

The Russian Navy aircraft will differ from the Indian Navy MiGs. “These airplanes will be made to a new technical specification that complies with [Russian] defense ministry requirements,” the manufacturer said. A new radar with active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) is expected to take the place of the Phazotron Zhuk-M with a slotted antenna and mechanical radar beam scanning, the radar fitted to the Indian MiGs.

Vladimir Barkovsky, chief of the MiG engineering center, said that in the course of RAC MiG’s unsuccessful bid for India’s medium multi-role combat aircraft competition, the company demonstrated the performance of the Zhuk-MA on the MiG-35D demonstrator: “We demonstrated that the radar actually works in air-to-air and ground-mapping modes,” he explained. “It can select, discriminate and track targets. During these trials, the MiG-35 launched a missile that destroyed a drone using radar data for targeting.”

On the company’s marketing strategy, Barkovsky said MiG will “aggressively promote” both naval (MiG-29K/KUB) and land-based (MiG-29M1/M2/35) models sharing a common platform with state-of-the-art avionics, improved engines, advanced construction materials, larger fuel stores and new weapons. “We believe this platform has a lot of potential and can generate sales over a long period of time,” he said. “We will develop this platform further [with] more fifth-generation technology insertions, such as the active radar, new optics and other sensors, state-of-the-art ECM and so on. We have already implemented fully digital fly-by-wire on the MiG-29K and flight-tested AESA radar and the newest composite materials on the MiG-35.”

Having secured a place on the carrier deck, the MiG is seeking to sell advanced Fulcrums to ground-based forces. With this in mind, the prototype of the MiG-29M2 twin-seat land-based fighter commenced flight tests in December. A single-seat MiG-29M derivative joined the testing last February.

Syria placed an order for 24 MiG-29M1s/M2s in May 2008, with deliveries due in 2012-2014. It remains to be seen whether this contract will be completed, in view of the current unrest in the Middle Eastern country, although Russian authorities have yet to indicate any intention to block military exports to the government of President Bashar Assad.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... ft-carrier

Why didn't we go for AESA for the second batch?

member_19969 · Post by **member_19969** » 09 Jul 2012 18:51

US, India inch towards naval partnership

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Jul 2012 21:11

krish.pf wrote:Why didn't we go for AESA for the second batch?

When the requirement was formalised for Mig-29K first or second batch the AESA radar of Zhuk-AE was not ready and it still isnt if you read the interview in the latest take off magazine the full 1064 T/R module is still not ready and they are yet to evalute it ... opting for a unproven and costlier new system with all the gains and risk involved was not something IN thought was worth compared to proven but slotted array Zhuk-M .....once its ready and inducted in RuN and proven we can think of fitting AESA on IN Mig-29K ...same for RD-33MKM engine it is still not ready.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 09 Jul 2012 22:03

Oh! Didn't see the magazine.
They said back in 2009 that they are working on it to improve its range to 200km for 5m2 http://vijainder.sawfnews.com/news/60169.aspx / Then recently they released a placard saying they had achieved 160km for 3m2(or 182km for 5m2, close to the initial 200km assessment). So assumed it's all ready to be plugged in.

Thanks for the info.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 10 Jul 2012 00:20

India finalizing US $ 10 billion mega stealth frigates’ project

The seven new frigates will be ``longer, broader, faster and stealthier'' than the three 6,100-tonne Shivalik-class frigates that have a range of 5,000 nautical miles at a cruising speed of 18 knots.

There has to be Barak 8 maybe with ER of 100 Km and the 4x4 VLS Brahmos. What else would be the Radar and Armaments of the P17A?

There is a Mistake. Shivalik cruises at 30 Knots not 18.

John · Post by **John** » 10 Jul 2012 01:37

30 knots is its top speed not cruising speed.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Jul 2012 02:14

The contract should have been signed years back. Even after much delay, last of the 3 Shivalik frigates is due for commissioning later this year which means workshop/birth is sitting empty waiting for next order P17A.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 10 Jul 2012 05:13

Hawk eye on Malacca strait

~~PS: Map in link above~~ See post below for map.

New Delhi, July 9: India is set to commission its latest military post named Baaz (hawk) on its south-eastern fringe in the Bay of Bengal to oversee a sea lane through which a quarter of the world’s trade passes, an Indian Navy source told The Telegraph on Monday.

In April this year, the navy had upgraded its detachment in the Lakshadweep Islands in the Arabian Sea to the level of a full-fledged base. Named the INS Dweeprakshak, the base is in the island of Kavaratti.

Together, the INS Dweeprakshak and the naval air station, Baaz, are set to be India’s western and eastern-most sentinels.

But it is the Baaz that is of greater significance to the world because its location gives it a hawk eye over the Straits of Malacca after US defence secretary Leon Panetta said in Delhi last month that its military was “re-balancing” to the Asia-Pacific.

Campbell Bay, where Baaz has come up, is closer to Indonesia than to the Indian mainland.

To be opened this month-end by the outgoing navy chief, Admiral Nirmal Verma, whose mission it has been, naval air station (NAS) Baaz will be based in Campbell Bay at the southern tip of Great Nicobar island. Spread over nearly 70 hectares, Baaz will eventually be capable of turning around all kind of fighter and transport-troop carrier aircraft.

NAS Baaz sits astride the Six-Degree Channel between Nicobar and the coast of Aceh that is known to sailors around the world as the mouth of the Straits of Malacca. The strait connects the Indian and Pacific Oceans and the economies of China, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore are largely dependent on it.

Last month, a Hercules C-130 aircraft, newly acquired by the Indian Air Force, flew non-stop for 10 hours from the base at Hindon, east of Delhi, to Campbell Bay. That was a trial sortie that indicated that operations were about to begin at NAS Baaz.

Battered by the tsunami of 2004, Campbell Bay, with its fragile ecosystem, is now set to become one of India’s most strategic forward operating air bases. It now has a 3,000ft runway that is likely to be extended and will eventually be able to handle airlifters like the IL-76 and the larger Globemaster III that the IAF has contracted.

Fighter aircraft can operate from the base even now but, with its commissioning as a full-fledged station, it extends their reach. Indian air surveillance in and around the Bay of Bengal, apart from the coastline, has depended on sorties from Port Blair — about 550 nautical miles north of Campbell Bay, roughly the distance from Delhi to Bhopal — that made it difficult to sustain the watch over longer periods of time.

With the commissioning of Baaz, Indian military aircraft would now be able to spend more time in surveillance of not only the Straits of Malacca but also the Straits of Sunda and Lombok. China’s Peoples Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) rates its strategic interest in the Straits of Malacca on a par with the importance it gives to Taiwan.

The commissioning of NAS Baaz on the southern tip of Great Nicobar island will be followed by an upgrade of NAS Shibpur at Diglipur on the northern tip of the Andamans.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Jul 2012 05:52

Nikhil T wrote: PS: Map in link above

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2012 07:44

the IAF version of Barak8 which I guess is not yet started has a target range of 120km.....but let the barak8 come first. rafael will surely ensure the tubes on P17A will be deep enough to take both.
our UVLS that takes Klub and Brahmos should be adapted to Nirbhay and more tubes added (atleast 16) so it P17A can add some land strike power

8 x brahmos2 (move them into inclined stealth tubes amidships if foredeck volume is an issue)
16 x nirbhay / brahmos depending on mission
48 barak8
32 barak1-v2
4 x Ak630/oerlikon
2 x 3TT HWT varunastra

the P15B could up the meat to 64-72 barak8 using a second VLS just ahead of the helicopter hangar.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 10 Jul 2012 13:19

^^I think our surface combatants should also have ASW-strike capabilities i.e. ASROC/Klub 91RE1-type. So we need more UVLS units to give us greater flexibility.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 10 Jul 2012 14:14

New radar network to track vessel movement off Chennai

The system, Vasan said, would be akin to a black box in an aircraft, recording and displaying data from radar and AIS with Very High Frequency (VHF) voice. The AIS is used to locate vessels using electronic data. AIS information supplements marine radar and is used as a primary method of collision avoidance besides checking the position, course and speed of vessels.

The system, already installed in ports like Mumbai, will also detect oil spills. Underwater surveillance, web server coordination for data sharing with the Navy and Coast Guard are the other advantages.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2012 16:35

^ true jaeger sir. RBU is not a standoff weapon. we should maybe reduce the nirbhay on some ships and use those cells for Klub ASW missiles.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 10 Jul 2012 18:51

Darth Singha, no sir-shir for this fellow stormtrooper.

In an ideal situation, I would like to see the creation of an Indian 24" dia., 8.5m. length UVLS that would then accomodate BrahMos, Klub, Nirbhay, Barak-II quad-packed (27cm/11" body diameter) and then future iterations of AAD (21", 7m).

P-15B -
6x8 Bow UVLS, 4x8 Hangar UVLS = 80 cells
32x1 (8x1 quad-packed) Barak-II
8x1 Klub 91RE2 ASM
8x4 AAD derivative
8x4 BrahMos/Nirbhay CM
...gives a good balance of MR SAM, limited ABM, good SSM strike and basic ASM strike. This doesn't count CIWS and TT's.

P-17A
6x8 Bow UVLS = 48 cells
32x1 (8x1 quad-packed) Barak-II
8x1 Klub 91RE2 ASM
8x4 BrahMos/Nirbhay CM
...clear focus on reasonable MR-SAM, basic ASM and powerful SSM. Again, CIWS and TT's not counted.

What do you think?

John · Post by **John** » 10 Jul 2012 19:43

Unlikely Barak-8 and Brahmos/Klub are ever integrated to have same launch mechanism: Brahmos uses cold launch where as at least with Barak-1 Hot launch ("safer") was utilized and i doubt the Russians and Israelis would be willing to allow integration of both weapons. As for the P-17A if it is based on modified FREMM design it is unlikely it can carry anything more than 8 Brahmos and 32 Barak-8 unless the design is significantly stretched. Also there is no data yet available on Barak-8 launchers are they the size of Sylver A50 or much bigger and based on Mk 41?

Bergamini Class Frigate

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2012 20:37

I was reading about older carrier planes, when reading about the Breguet Alize, realized what a brilliant design it was and could still be useful in a patrol/harassment role in the island territories and offshore bases.

- based on the Vultur BR960 that had a RR Nene turbojet in the back and a turboprop in the front for economical cruise and higher combat radius!!...when Alize was designed the turbojet was replaced with a retractable radome.
- sonobuoys in two wing nacelles
- internal weapons bay can take homing torpedo or depth bombs
- two underwing pylons for addl weapons
- pilot and radar operator side by side
- system operator in a side facing seat behind them

length - 13.9m
span - 15.6m
height - 4.75m
engine - 1975shp RR dart turboprop
weight empty - 5700kg, max - 8250kg
max speed - 460km at sea level
ceiling 20,500ft
range 2500km
endurance 4 hr 30 mins

imo if this design is resurrected.
- a modern turboprop put in
- composites in airframe
- modern cockpit, with a slight stretch to accomodate some racks in place of the systems operator
- the radome in back some sea search radar borrowed from helicopters

this thing will be far cheaper than a NH90/EC725 used for the same job and be capable of hanging around over large areas in a CG/IN type offshore patrol mission..............its the kind of thing the Rus/Cheen would do to squeeze some value off a proven design.

http://prototypes.free.fr/fr1/images/br960_05.jpg
breguet vulture - one of the few with a turbojet, turboprop mix.....the B-36 also had this wierd combo of 4 turbojets and 6 radial engines

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 10 Jul 2012 22:43

Hit at home, China's ghost fleet sails high seas --- Reuters Dated 5-July-2012

This is article about the economic impact of Chinese coastal vessels entering the world freight business. But that is not why this article is important

China, the world's biggest coal producer, is also the biggest single coal and iron ore importer and freight user.
China's coastal trade existed for decades on a small scale, but began to boom when power generation needs in the country's south took off due to mass industrialization and coal was urgently needed from the northern mines.
China's coastal coal trade soared by 88 percent from 2006 to move 639 million metric tons (704 million tons) in 2011, according to securities group Jefferies. Shipbroker Clarksons estimates China's coastal trade of coal, steel, grains and fertilizers at over 1 billion metric tons.
....
The total number of vessels involved in China's coastal trade is estimated at 1,500-2,000 with deadweight ranging between 10,000 and 50,000 metric tons. Many of the 20,000-tonnes or smaller ships are unregistered and unclassified anywhere. "These smaller ships don't get released into the spot market, they're often very old and only fit to hug the coast," said one shipping source. Two-thirds of the fleet are up to 20 years old but it is the remaining third which worries industry players as they are newer, bigger and more fuel-efficient vessels.

Makes sense, after all a ship can move goods more economically than a train can. Put it simply it is more cost effective to ship goods then truck or sent them via rails.

There are two aspects to the above information. One china has a massive number of ships which will become a factor once PLAAN/PLAAF are able to secure the taiwan straits against Taiwan+USA. We should not forget that China has a home advantage as far as Taiwan Strait is concerned.

The second is juicy aspect as far as India is concerned. If we are able to shut down this trade using Akula class submarines, armed with Brahmos missiles then we will be able to squeeze a very important economic life line for PRC. Consider the fact that the coal that is sent from north china is sent to produce electricity. If we are able to shut down the flow of coal then we shut down or reduce the electricity generation. Which will directly impact the chinese economy and its ability to fight a war with India. For obvious reasons we cannot use Diesel submarines. But nuclear attack submarines, not boomers, are a different class all together. Till now we have been focused on second-strike capability. But our money will be well spent on hunter killers rather than on boomers.

In history two countries tried to suffocate their opponents using submarines. One failed spectacularly (the Nazis against the US+ Britain) while the other succeeded (US against the Nipponese). One of the most least acknowledged aspects of the war in the pacific was how USN hunter packs of submarines literally chocked Japanese shipping. We can repeat this against China.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Jul 2012 23:32

Yak-130 for Indian Navy ?

link

The industrial team behind the project also hopes to sell a dedicated trainer version to the Russian and Indian navies.

titash · Post by **titash** » 11 Jul 2012 02:17

Re: Singha

I had thought of the same thing regarding the Alize a few weeks ago; interesting to see that quite a few of us think alike

The reason in all probability is the maintenance footprint. The Alize were used in the 60s from the Vikrant. The light Alouette III helos (MATCH role) came a few years later and operated from both the Vikrant and the Whitby/Leander frigates (in the 70s). The heavy ASW Sea Kings came in the early 70s and were operated from the Vikrant as well as the last 2 Leanders (in the late 70s/early 80s). Since then, every frigate/destroyer built in India has been designed around 2 heavy ASW Sea Kings

Clearly, the Alize was begining to show its age, and coupled with the low flexibility i.e. fixed wing ASW is not possible from a frigate/destroyer, the Sea King was the better choice. It also didn't make sense to have 2 parallel ASW aircraft fleets and associated maintenance infrastructure for two small carriers

The USN on the other hand had 14 large carriers during the cold war and each carried 8 - 10 S3A vikings. Once the USSR collapsed, the submarine threat all but disappeared and the S3A were converted from an ASW to ASuW role. However the 188 vikings built constituted a large fleet that could operate globally from 14 flat tops, i.e worth establishing a dedicated maint. infrastructure for

I think the same problem persists today for the IN. The flexible choice is to operate heavy ASW helicopters from the new carriers and the new frigate/destroyer/corvette(s)

One interesting fact is that all our new frigates and corvettes are much heavier than the ships they will replace. The Kamortas at 3000 tons are significantly larger than both the old petyas they are replacing (in role) as well as the Leanders. They will also operate a single heavy ASW helicopter

Thanks,

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2012 07:43

^titash - makes sense for the embarked airwing. but I was thinking more of a CG/IN land based patrol role in the A&N, laccadive, kutch or any overseas territory we can setup a shop. the CG operates some Do228 & Islander a/c and this is where I was seeing it....if we can cheaply produce it and flood the place. unlike the Dornier this will have a ability to attack small ships and drop a single LWT also. a El-cheapo defence against midget subs and littoral SSK.

^christopher. shallow depth of china brown water belt is unsuitable for submarine ops and a few SSN salvos wont even take a bite off coastal shipping. its better to hit the power plants themselves using stealthy SLCMs.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Jul 2012 07:52

Base support ship INS Tanaji commissioned.

Indian Naval Ship (INS) Tanaji — a career management centre for sailors, a database and human resources unit — was today commissioned by Admiral Nirmal Verma, Chief of Naval Staff, at the Mankhurd Naval Base in an eastern suburb.

With the education, expectations and demands of Indian Navy sailors being significantly greater than before, “we need to draw attention to their aspirations,” Verma said. The real strength of the Navy is its sailors, he said. “That is why we can’t afford to lose focus. Human resources management is about people and we need to retain that human touch. At the same time, we need to emphasise on the veteran community that built this edifice. That is why 2012 is dedicated as the year of servicemen.”

In another development, Defence Minister A.K. Antony will attend the commissioning of naval warship Sahyadri on July 21 at the Naval Dockyard in south Mumbai.

While naval presence has normally been associated with south Mumbai, it was as early as World War II that the navy commenced its presence in the eastern suburbs with the establishment of the Naval Armament Depot in Trombay, followed by the Weapon Equipment Depot, store house of Material Organisation, production centres of Naval Dockyard, and the Bureau of Sailors. “From its origins, Mankhurd station has grown in size and presence, much like the city, into a full fledged naval station employing over 1,000 employees,” Verma said.

INS Tanaji will be a base support ship for all the allied units of this station, providing administrative and logistics support. The commissioning of Tanaji is a natural progression of the Western naval command of having an independent organisation to look after the needs of these units, an official said.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Jul 2012 08:30

Rather than manned heavy helicopters., unmanned helicopters are more versatile., redudant and the mother vessel would be able to carry more for combat and surveillance .

titash · Post by **titash** » 11 Jul 2012 09:30

@ Singha:
I did some wiki searching. Turns out the Dornier 228 / Islander both have a MTOW of 6.5 tons. For these aircraft to become useful ASW/AShW assets, they will have to carry a weapons payload (depth charges/torpedos/AShM), a comprehensive sensor payload (MAD boom, surface search radar, and several dozen sonobouys) in addition to comprehensive signal processing electronics weighing in at several hundred kilos and a minimum of 3-4 crewmembers. The Dornier's current MTOW/payload only caters to the maritime surveillance role

Among the smaller flxed wing ASW aircraft, the Alize had an MTOW of 8 tons, the Gannet/S-2 Tracker around 11 tons, but the comprehensive and persistent ASW solution was delivered by the 23 ton S-3A

The SeaKing/SeaHawk/NH90 are all in the heavier 8-10 ton MTOW range and offer most of the above in addition to embarkation flexibility and SAR capability (more relevant in peacetime)

I am not sure if a helicopter's dunking sonar is a better sensor than sonobouys carried by fixed wing ASW, but prima facie, it appears that decent fixed wing ASW need to be somewhat larger aircraft...which probably means they have to be designed around larger engines (do we have any suitable turbofans/turboprops available locally?). More importantly, you're looking at a production run of 15-20 aircraft at most

Regards,

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 11 Jul 2012 20:50

Where does the Arihant fit in exactly?

Will · Post by **Will** » 11 Jul 2012 20:53

Wouldnt everyone like to know that?

Dont think anyone other than Russia knows that at the moment

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 11 Jul 2012 21:00

with due respect since this is our first venture it might be between DELTA III & AKULA I

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 11 Jul 2012 21:03

Breach of National security detected MODS plij to do waji-bull-cutlet some posts here

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jul 2012 03:46

July 11, 2012 :: First P-8 For Indian Navy To Be Tested at Canadian-U.S. Test Range

Boeing P-18 for India successfully tested (DDM alert in title)

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Jul 2012 05:19

Indian Navy Ka-28 anti-submarine helis to be upgraded by Russia with Italian help

Russia plans to develop airborne maritime patrol platforms fitted with Italian intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) systems. The corresponding agreements were signed between Russia's arms trade agency Rosoboronexport and Finmeccanica's subsidiaries Selex Elsag, Selex Galilieo and WASS at the Farnborough air show on June 11. The cooperation also involves the modernization of the Russian aircraft that are already in service with foreign customers.

The first project of its kind will be the upgrade of 10 Kamov Ka-28 antisubmarine warfare helicopters of the Indian navy that will receive Selex Galileo ATOS tactical observation and surveillance systems. The deputy head of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, explained that the talks with the Indian customer are expected to be completed in half a year. Design efforts will start after that.
...

link

Some details on the Selex Galileo ATOS

link

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 12 Jul 2012 07:30

Its at the tip of the arrow head

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2012 08:21

Can someone analyze this ship concept and its potential role for IN?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/12/world ... picks=true

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 12 Jul 2012 08:53

INS Vikramaditya on final sea trials : Russian Mig 29s will do Flight Tests before Delivery

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 12 Jul 2012 13:24

Vikie

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Jul 2012 13:39

^^Why is an Su-33 landing on it?