Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[ramana]

Couple of quick points

1. IA's requirement is NOW so NG Javelin won't do.
2. NG Javelin JV is a carrot to get us to buy the current Javelin.
3. If after investment by BDL/Tata if imported seeker/exotic material is denied then all our investment will go down the drain. So to be sanction safe and safe from price gouging .. FULL tot only will do.
4. My suggestion as stated before to buy these (Javelin or Spike or whatever works) off the shelf. Meet the immediate requirement.
5. That still leaves us with ample opportunity to go for a desi mpAT down the line. mpAT shortage is ~26,000 but the current order is just for ~10,000.

This is an example of balanced decision making that is woefully absent.

Kudos.

[Sagar G]

NRao even by your own acceptance we don't need any kind of hand holding from USA because thanks to there perfidy we have matured and matured well enough to take care of our industrial capability. Other than intentional bad policies of MoD and GoI to keep the gravy train running there is nothing that stops us from developing our own strong public-pvt. MIC so unless and until those policies aren't changed how come you expect to gain anything from any kind of deal whether you make it with USA or God himself ??? Yes we lack technology, yes we have technological gaps so what ??? Shall we start renting ourselves out on some verbal assurances given by the most perfidious nation on earth ??? When you know that ultimately it's the much abused SDRE engineer/scientist who is going to develop the critical techs that we want then why shall we waste our hard earned money on developing American industry and supporting American jobs ??? Where is the logic in doing so ???

Then there is the other dimension, a longer or much, much longer term, which includes such esoteric topics like R&D, Project Management, Manufacturing, Procurement and Supply chain. Co-development. Here India should not expect core technologies to be parted with: no nation will do that (Snecma did not want to co-develop a core for the Kaveri - it is natural. Wonder if the T-90 gun barrel falls into this cat too). India will get some of these core techs in a black box. Things MAY change, but both getting techs in a black box and change are to be expected. I just hope DRDO and teh Labs have a healthy view of the situation.

You are absolutely right no nation parts away with core tech but comparing the actions of Russia and USA even after considering the bitching by Russia it's still far far better than USA and they have helped us develop technology even if that may not be state of the art but that at least gave us a stepping stone. What is the USA's record regarding this ??? Remember LCA CLAW team ??? You are absolutely right about DRDO labs having a pragmatic view about this considering they were burned most badly by those scums, I quote again

“The DRDO welcomes co-development of advanced weapon systems, provided there is real technological collaboration involved. India needs to fill its technology gaps and co-development should ensure that both partners build upon their mutual strengths.”

I THINK it is worth looking into co-development ONLY because co-development with the US offers FAR more than just R&D. India could REALLY do with PM, manufacturing, procurement and supply chain. I can tell you that there is no other nation that can provide that list.

This is a wrong perception USA has pretty much ****** up in various projects recently being the F-35 a PM disaster also read about there aerostat effort, but because USA has a lot of successful products hence people quickly tend to forget that they also face the same developmental problem that any other nation faces. Yesterday I was reading about M777 ULH and was surprised to know that the project has been going on since the 80's !!!! Frankly I don't believe anyone can teach us the things you want USA to teach everybody learns them by trial and error only IMHO.

I would lend them an ear about this "co-development" BS if they transfer all the critical Javelin tech to India without any strings attached so that we can us manufacture the complete missile on our own. If they are willing to part away with the tech then only India must think about any "co-development" otherwise we should plainly say GTFO.

[Sagar G]

Yesterday I had asked,

Who is this Ashton Carter ??? What is his history regarding stance over India ???

Today I found a bit about Deputy Secretary of Defence Ashton B Carter whose words are sounding so "melodious" right now. A bit OT but nevertheless we must also know the person throwing verbal assurances at us especially if he is American

US wary of Indo-Pak nuke arsenal, cites no mechanism to prevent use

“Pakistan and India, obviously, have a history of very tense relationships. Both countries possess nuclear weapons, which I know the Indian government recognises is the kind of weaponry that makes war really unthinkable, yet another reason for making it more unthinkable,” said Deputy Secretary of Defence Ashton B Carter.

“I think the leaders on both sides recognise that,” said Carter.“Therefore, our principal concern is that there not be any mechanism that could lead inadvertently to the use of nuclear weapons or resort to nuclear weapons. That’s my principal worry, as was during the Cold War (the) principal worry with respect to the US and the Soviet Union,” he said.

Awww so sweet of you look how much he loves India no (assuming that all of you also have sudden amnesia forgetting that the nuclear tech transfer to Pottysthan happened under the watchful eyes of uncle sam)........but wait what's this

Ahead of a visit to the region, including Afghanistan, India and Pakistan, Carter said the Obama administration is trying very hard to keep the momentum going with Pakistan which it regained about five or six months ago.

“We all need, I think, a good security relationship with Pakistan. They have internal challenges, and I think they’re increasingly seeing that the internal insurgency in Pakistan is a threat to the Pakistani state,” he said.

“And that, in turn, is a threat to Afghanistan, because those insurgents (come over the) border in Afghanistan, and that’s a threat to India, because those groups have shown the willingness and the capability to make attacks in India.”

The US is continuing to “work very hard, including with the new Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif”, on the defence relationship with Pakistan and to emphasise that “Pakistan’s relations with its two neighbours are very critical, not just to Pakistan, but to the US, and obviously to India and to Afghanistan”, he said.

Responding to questions, Carter made it clear the US is not leaving Afghanistan at the end of 2014.

Reminds me of the HIV virus, once infected never leaves.

Oh and don't miss the rest of the article about the usual "rebalance"/"balance" and how joo ess yeayyy is going to bring "peace" to Asia crap.

[kit]

DRDOs cream of missile engineers will soon start working for US companies. As soon as the american companies collaborate with any entity outside the US this has happened and shall happen in India as well. Forget about collaboration when the going is good , remember you never had it when you needed it the most ! DRDO will be well advised to stay put and collaborate with any other company/corporation outside the US !

If they had to leave then nothing is stopping them even now to leave so your fear is misplaced, though some might move away to greener pastures but it won't be as catastrophic as you are imagining it to be. By the way reverse migration also happens.

Maybe not.But Khan has a way of identifying the best talent which they can access only when working with the groups and a very good method of targeted canvassing ... have seldom seen anyone not getting bowled over.Have seen it literally !

And they do have eyes on 3 particular establishments in the country ., DAE ,ISRO and DRDO. Did you see NASA making noises at ISRO collaboration ?

[ramana]

NASA already migrated many ISRO folks in the early 90s. A fact that UR Rao mentioned to Al Gore when he complained about ISRO people going to work for DRDO!!!!
URR suggested put sanctions on NASA before DRDO!

[pragnya]

few things - assumptions, to ponder -

1. guess MOD/GOI must have taken the inputs from the DRDO and that DRDO is in no position to develop and productionise a Man portable ATGM in the immediate future.

2. IA is using an older gen Milan 2T which needs an immediate replacement.

3. the proposal, if any, is wrt Javelin NG 'not' the present one.

.....................

if 1, 2 and 3 is true and 'conditional to' TOT (atleast that helps DRDO) being transferred for the present gen Javelin - i don't see any harm in going forward on this.

also note DRDO while responding tongue in cheek -

A senior DRDO source confirmed the US offer. “DRDO welcomes co-development of advanced weapon systems, provided there is real technological collaboration involved. India needs to fill its technology gaps and co-development should ensure both partners build upon their mutual strengths,” he said.

so unless they get somethinng substantial for the NG Javelin, it is not going to be favoured.

[Karan M]

This is a political proposal and if approved, will be a political decision forced on DRDO et al. Same way the LR/MRSAM was foisted on them by a couple of influential folks, same way T-72s were foisted on IA due to politics, same way US became the preferred partner for the LCA. This is a political move and the only person in the way, theoretically is Antony. So question is what can you make out of a bad deal.
FPA seeker tech will not be transferred. US doesn't do that, not even to its frontline munnas. At the end of the day, it's something India has to do on its own-Saraswat once mentioned the org had been asking for a fab from a decade plus, and the cost had gown up from crores to tens of crores to a few hundred crores and now even more. Instead Indian MOD goes around looking for tech from every company out there seeking magical shortcuts. As if even the TI and NVD procurement has occurred. They too are stuck for pretty much the same reason. Unless you radically increase the RandD budget, and invest in core infrastructure, test and integration, the US, Israel etc will always be ahead in some sensor or the other and we won't even have a Gen1 equivalent let alone a miniaturised Gen3 or whatever. Another example, Incidentally, when this plea for increasing the budget was made it was shot down by folks like Tyagi. Then of course his service bemoaned that the LCA was stuck because of HAL unwillingness to fund the series production. So whether it be myopia, arrogance or a dodgy reason, fact of the matter is we lack sensor tech to make a fully local FandF missile.

[ramana]

If GOI sanctions a bribe budget for DRDO and Public Sector companies then by magic everyhting will be bought locally!!!!.
None of this MOD seeking small companies abroad which is really quest for bribes to feed the insatiable hunger for the politicans to get bribes.

[Viv S]

Show me a military deal where the buyer has made more money off than the seller.

The UK invested $2.5-3 billion into the JSF program as the sole Tier I partner (perhaps somewhat more after accounting for inflation) and received a workshare of 15% of each $100-150 million F-35 produced. That's each F-35, from the 42 aircraft to be exported to Japan to the 2443 to be acquired by the USAF, USMC and USN.

They don't own the bulk of the tech/IP and can't independently modify their aircraft, but the industrial windfall will still keep an estimated 25,000 people employed.

[pankajs]

They can have the cake and eat it too .. the politicos that is .. just allow DRDO the freedom to choose it partner from the private sector. These firms will apply whatever grease is needed to get the procurement wheels moving. If we cannot get rid of the grease then let us apply it for the maximum benefit of the country.

For that we will have to do a couple of things first.

1. Willingness to buck the DPSU unions.
2. Setup strict export control compliance procedure.
3. Set up special rules on M&A .. DRDO retains IP, Sensitive div. needs to be fire-walled from the rest of the org and hived off into a separate entity if the parent entity gets acquired .. and other such details. DRDO chief did bring up some of these points in his interview.

[ramana]

Also read these moves along with that RT interview posted in BK's blog.
While US allows nuke technology to go missing to PRC, they want to tie up India with a two bit anti-tank missile to show the world India is on their camp.

[NRao]

Was recently informed that Indian underground economy is thriving: 1:3 good:bad. (Around 1980 it was 1:1.) Yatha raja, thatha praja or yatha praja thatha raja.

That article on nukes was meant for Paki consumption.

There is very little overlap on co-prod, co-dev, strategic issues, etc. I would not waste time on trying to connect dots between them and then extrapolating. (BTW, getting Javelins NOW = co-production. Javelin NG = co-development. Prior could have ToT, latter no need for ToT)

5 years ago we could have not even mentioned co-XXXX with the US. Today Indian ships get impounded by Iran!!!!!

I would wait till the MMS-Obama meet occurs to see what is actually on the table - even then things are subject to change.

Q: Can you fall asleep before your head hits the pillow? Or, can you catch sleep whenever you want to?

[ramana]

Latter.

[VijayN]

Hello folks, long time lurker, etc etc.

My 2 cents on this AT topic.

We seem to be covering all aspects of this AT procurement/development, however can someone throw more light on why our forces should consider a specific platform? Does everyone Konkur that Milan with US makes sense w/r to Javelin or Spike the relationship with Israel!! The part I feel missing is, what capability/platform is really required in direct contrast to the threats that our honorable neighbors bring to the table. Sorry if this sounds like a newbie query but honestly, why use a sword when you can beat them with a stick?

Khans/others will no doubt stymie our indigenous efforts, they know very well what our strengths and weakness in our R&D. We should buy/make based on short term threats and long term strategic needs (Duh!, nothing new here but wanted to understand what really can a relationship bring to the table, time we stood up and stood strong).

O/T
Cheers folks, I pretty much spend hours on this forum reading. Thought would say a quick hello, and hey don't delete this message

[Karan M]

Fire & Forget...easier to operate at range, safer for AT crews as tank armament and optics get longer ranged. SACLOS missiles are hard to hit targets with, at range plus expose firer to a stationery position.

[svinayak]

Also read these moves along with that RT interview posted in BK's blog.
While US allows nuke technology to go missing to PRC, they want to tie up India with a two bit anti-tank missile to show the world India is on their camp.

Any tie up with India on defence is to stall it, to create chaos, to reduce India's capability, to styme Indian R&D

[NRao]

May I suggest that people do some very high level, simple comparison between where India was in 2000 (just picked that from thin air) and in 2014 - from an Indian need point of view.

Please correct me (or add) if you feel so. I feel that India has matured in many areas (we would have loved to see even more progress, but it is what it is). Missile technologies, 4/4++ Gen air craft, tank, naval productS, etc, etc, etc. India does need help in some areas, but it is not that without such help India will fall apart. India, I believe, has matured enough - both financially and technically - to be considered as a very serious partner. I could not say that in 2000. Comments?

As far as I can tell India is operating without those acronymed agreements, right? IF true, then that should be an indicator to take into serious consideration. Would India be the only nation in that predicament?

If one made the argument, in 2000, that some nation would kill an industry in India I would give it serious consideration. Today, if it were to happen I would blame it on the political system, really nothing else. And, politics (and corruption) ................. dunno, I have no answer for that, Indians need to handle that.

Also, there is another dimension that has surfaced: both India and the US are the only nations (outside of some yahoos in Africa perhaps) that have real threats. They both have been independently chasing solutions to very similar issues facing their armed forces (less for the US now that they are winding down in A'sthan, etc) and internally. Nonetheless, there is a boat load of commonality just due to the scale at which they would like to operate.

However, like I mentioned earlier, I would wait to see what happens in the MMS-Obama meet in a couple of weeks.

[pragnya]

Karan M,

The MK2 being spoken of, will be a game changing missile for the IAF more in the class of a Meteor. At any rate, they can get that done leveraging tech from MRSAM etc (dual propulsion, booster) once the MRSAM gets done and Astra MK1 is finished.

here is what tarmak reported in dec 2011 -

India has already developed a dual-pulse rocket motor (enahances the range) for Astra Mk-II. "Self reliance in air launched missile and particularly air-to-air system is of strategic importance considering the new paradigm of air superiority warfare," sources said.

The missile will use 'Agat' seeker from Russia which will be produced in India through a total transfer-of-technology process. The development programe will see about 100-plus missiles produced intially, thanks to the two variants and different platforms.

Tarmak Link

[koti]

Quote:
India has already developed a dual-pulse rocket motor (enahances the range) for Astra Mk-II. "Self reliance in air launched missile and particularly air-to-air system is of strategic importance considering the new paradigm of air superiority warfare," sources said.

I guess this is similar/same to the dual pulse motor developed for the LRSAM?

[pragnya]

Quote:
India has already developed a dual-pulse rocket motor (enahances the range) for Astra Mk-II. "Self reliance in air launched missile and particularly air-to-air system is of strategic importance considering the new paradigm of air superiority warfare," sources said.

I guess this is similar/same to the dual pulse motor developed for the LRSAM?

either same or may be a minor variant. remember the dual pulse rocket motor for LRSAM is DRDO contribution among others.

[pankajs]

Boost for Navy as Arihant gears up for arms trial

After years of joint research and development by India and Israel on the Rs 2,600-crore long range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) project, one of the naval warships has now been fitted with the launcher to test the new missile, which would be one of the mainstay weapons for Indian warships.

Parallel work is going on to arm the indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant with the LR-SAM, which will be one of the key components of the carrier’s protective suite.

<snip>

Chandra said Agni V had an accuracy in the range of 100 metres but scientists were working to improve the accuracy of long range missile within 10-15 metres. This means, even if the missile is fired from a distance of 2000-3000 km, it should hit within 15 metres of the target.

The news on LR-SAM is confusing wonlee .. But then DRDO chief's word should be good.

[Sagar G]

Show me a military deal where the buyer has made more money off than the seller.

The UK invested $2.5-3 billion into the JSF program as the sole Tier I partner (perhaps somewhat more after accounting for inflation) and received a workshare of 15% of each $100-150 million F-35 produced. That's each F-35, from the 42 aircraft to be exported to Japan to the 2443 to be acquired by the USAF, USMC and USN.

They don't own the bulk of the tech/IP and can't independently modify their aircraft, but the industrial windfall will still keep an estimated 25,000 people employed.

Your "example" of a buyer (UK) making more money off than the seller (US) only reinforces that it never happens. I guess you also remember that USA wasn't willing to share the AESA tech with there "only Tier 1 partner" and UK did a lot of hai hai uncle sam about that. Putting the reality of queen in the words of an american presidential candidate

I feel badly about the British. They're our dear friends, but they're no longer a world power. It's just a fact of life.

[Sagar G]

Also, there is another dimension that has surfaced: both India and the US are the only nations (outside of some yahoos in Africa perhaps) that have real threats. They both have been independently chasing solutions to very similar issues facing their armed forces (less for the US now that they are winding down in A'sthan, etc) and internally. Nonetheless, there is a boat load of commonality just due to the scale at which they would like to operate.

This is utter crap, America faces enemies which it has created itself and to top that keeps funding Indian enemies so as to keep India in check. I respect your view NRao but now you are getting desperate to pass your view and in the process creating such inherently flawed arguments.

[Sagar G]

IIRC dual pulse propulsion was available in Trishul itself but DRDO site mentions "dual thrust propulsion" don't know whether they are the same or different things.

[NRao]

Also, there is another dimension that has surfaced: both India and the US are the only nations (outside of some yahoos in Africa perhaps) that have real threats. They both have been independently chasing solutions to very similar issues facing their armed forces (less for the US now that they are winding down in A'sthan, etc) and internally. Nonetheless, there is a boat load of commonality just due to the scale at which they would like to operate.

This is utter crap, America faces enemies which it has created itself and to top that keeps funding Indian enemies so as to keep India in check. I respect your view NRao but now you are getting desperate to pass your view and in the process creating such inherently flawed arguments.

Which is fine, no quarrel with what you have posted.

However, one has to be careful to differentiate between political and defense angles. The decision to make trouble is a political one. To face those troubles is the job of the Services. I am talking of the Services. Irrespective of who creates these problems the Services have to face them. Services rarely can go to the political wing and scream and yell to find meaningful solutions - although it has happened.

So, if you have the capacity to isolate the two and concentrate on the Services may be we can come to some agreement. But if the discussion is on who created or creates problems and for whom, then I have nothing to add. R&D, co-dev or co-rpod, manufacturing, supply chain, etc - the core of what I consider to be the discussion - have no meaning then.

[Sagar G]

Which is fine, no quarrel with what you have posted.

However, one has to be careful to differentiate between political and defense angles. The decision to make trouble is a political one. To face those troubles is the job of the Services. I am talking of the Services. Irrespective of who creates these problems the Services have to face them. Services rarely can go to the political wing and scream and yell to find meaningful solutions - although it has happened.

So, if you have the capacity to isolate the two and concentrate on the Services may be we can come to some agreement. But if the discussion is on who created or creates problems and for whom, then I have nothing to add. R&D, co-dev or co-rpod, manufacturing, supply chain, etc - the core of what I consider to be the discussion - have no meaning then.

Now you are sounding more ridiculous, so Aman ki Asha type pappi jhappi BS is all kosher since Pakistan/America sponsored Islamic terrorism is all political only and it's the job of the services to face them but at the same time the country which they serve can indulge in such display of tamasha totally disregarding the sacrifices that they make since it's there "job" !!!! By the way the American proposal had nothing to do with the interest of our services but was a R&D proposal with the actual intention of scheming off India with billions of $. I am done discussing perfidious uncle sam now.

[NRao]

- self deleted -

[pragnya]

This is a political proposal and if approved, will be a political decision forced on DRDO et al. Same way the LR/MRSAM was foisted on them by a couple of influential folks, same way T-72s were foisted on IA due to politics, same way US became the preferred partner for the LCA. This is a political move and the only person in the way, theoretically is Antony. So question is what can you make out of a bad deal.
FPA seeker tech will not be transferred. US doesn't do that, not even to its frontline munnas. At the end of the day, it's something India has to do on its own-Saraswat once mentioned the org had been asking for a fab from a decade plus, and the cost had gown up from crores to tens of crores to a few hundred crores and now even more. Instead Indian MOD goes around looking for tech from every company out there seeking magical shortcuts. As if even the TI and NVD procurement has occurred. They too are stuck for pretty much the same reason. Unless you radically increase the RandD budget, and invest in core infrastructure, test and integration, the US, Israel etc will always be ahead in some sensor or the other and we won't even have a Gen1 equivalent let alone a miniaturised Gen3 or whatever. Another example, Incidentally, when this plea for increasing the budget was made it was shot down by folks like Tyagi. Then of course his service bemoaned that the LCA was stuck because of HAL unwillingness to fund the series production. So whether it be myopia, arrogance or a dodgy reason, fact of the matter is we lack sensor tech to make a fully local FandF missile.

Karan M, while i agree with you, the point to be noted is even the new DPP rules require the services/MOD to scan first for the local capabilities and then move on to the buy & make if not feasible. AKA also is 'not' perceived to be pro US - remember he opted out of the US driven/led naval block of Japan, Australia and India against China.

besides DRDO won't keep quiet if the same can be achieved locally. IIRC USA also evinced interest in the ABM for joint development but as can be seen it has not been acted upon. DRDO chief is also the SA to the RM and is on record (both ex chief and the present have spoken about it) that 'indigenous' does not mean every system/every item of a system is done locally because there are tech which can be realised/not realised by DRDO in a 'reasonable' time. DRDO is more realistic in approach now but they may need assistance in for ex - miniaturisation of the seeker, warhead, materials or such. so net net, i guess, if the go ahead is given the following are built into the decision -

1. it helps DRDO at least in some areas where there is a need.

2. we get 'reasonable' TOT on the present Javelin.

3. India becomes the manufacturing hub for the Javelin/NG on account of being cheaper. India's pvt sector gains in terms of tech base + jobs.

4. IA gets the missile it wants. remeber IA had reservations wrt Milan 2T.

..........................

if this proposal is not acted upon then i take it for sure, DRDO might spring a surprise by gifting a MANPORTABLE NAG to the nation as they did with PRAHAR in the near future.

[Viv S]

Your "example" of a buyer (UK) making more money off than the seller (US) only reinforces that it never happens.

I'm not talking about the geopolitics. Britain's standing as a world power is not germane to the discussion. My post had to do with economics of it. Period.


The UK received a workshare can be valued at upwards of $40 billion for an investment of about $3 billion at development stage. No amount of spin can present that as a bad investment.

[Sagar G]

I'm not talking about the geopolitics. Britain's standing as a world power is not germane to the discussion. My post had to do with economics of it. Period.

The UK received a workshare can be valued at upwards of $40 billion for an investment of about $3 billion at development stage. No amount of spin can present that as a bad investment.

The geopolitics is decided by the strength of your military which in turn depends upon the strength of your economy, both department UK is falling.

That's right "received" like a second fiddle it is in the programme, the world knows very well whose program F-35 is. I have higher/better dreams for India which can only be achieved by sheer hard work and dedication, maybe you are content with India playing second fiddle I am not.

We have already discussed enough about america in this thread let's get back to Indian missiles now.

[Viv S]

The geopolitics is decided by the strength of your military which in turn depends upon the strength of your economy, both department UK is falling.

That's right "received" like a second fiddle it is in the programme, the world knows very well whose program F-35 is. I have higher/better dreams for India which can only be achieved by sheer hard work and dedication, maybe you are content with India playing second fiddle I am not.

We have already discussed enough about america in this thread let's get back to Indian missiles now.

You've neatly sidestepped the crux of debate i.e. economics of investing in a joint development program with emphasis on production workshare (which Karan M was in favour of), by bringing up irrelevancies like UK's military, economy, nationalism etc.

And this remains relevant to the thread in the context of possible Indian involvement in the Javelin ATGM program.

[Sagar G]

You've neatly sidestepped the crux of debate i.e. economics of investing in a joint development program with emphasis on production workshare (which Karan M was in favour of), by bringing up irrelevancies like UK's military, economy, nationalism etc.

And this remains relevant to the thread in the context of possible Indian involvement in the Javelin ATGM program.

I would have discussed "joint development" if USA was willing to share technology but what we have is verbal assurances from a US diplomat about a paper missile in return of which they want an order for Javelin missile but no word has been spared on the most important issue of technology transfer. If you have evidence of US willing to share technology put it in front, I am more than willing to take a look at it. All you have done till now is post about a USA poodle state and how much they will earn by dancing to the tune's of there master. Also don't forget to take a look at the following post of Karan M.

Bottom line is give me proof of USA's willingness to share critical technology with India and I will listen otherwise you are going ga ga goo goo over nothing.

[ramana]

Folks its getting off topic.
Thanks, ramana

[Viv S]

I would have discussed "joint development" if USA was willing to share technology but what we have is verbal assurances from a US diplomat about a paper missile in return of which they want an order for Javelin missile but no word has been spared on the most important issue of technology transfer. If you have evidence of US willing to share technology put it in front, I am more than willing to take a look at it. All you have done till now is post about a USA poodle state and how much they will earn by dancing to the tune's of there master. Also don't forget to take a look at the following post of Karan M.

Bottom line is give me proof of USA's willingness to share critical technology with India and I will listen otherwise you are going ga ga goo goo over nothing.

We're talking about investment and workshare. They may not grant total access to technology to us. They may not agree to cede the state of Colorado to us. That's not being offered as the proposal's primary merit.

This is your statement that started this debate -

'Show me a military deal where the buyer has made more money off than the seller.'


Having been shown one, instead of acknowledging it (even as a one-off) you insist on discussing poodles, doodles, dancing, masters-slaves, babytalk and so on.

[Sagar G]

Viv S my reply here

[Karan M]

Karan M, while i agree with you, the point to be noted is even the new DPP rules require the services/MOD to scan first for the local capabilities and then move on to the buy & make if not feasible.

All the rules get bent, overlooked or merely given a token acceptance, provided the Govt of the day or the decision maker of the day decides on something. Its always been the case. CAG then busts them up after the fact.. whether it be purchasing a Trenton or a T-90..

AKA also is 'not' perceived to be pro US - remember he opted out of the US driven/led naval block of Japan, Australia and India against China.

Which is why I said the only person theoretically in the way is Antony..

besides DRDO won't keep quiet if the same can be achieved locally. IIRC USA also evinced interest in the ABM for joint development but as can be seen it has not been acted upon. DRDO chief is also the SA to the RM and is on record (both ex chief and the present have spoken about it) that 'indigenous' does not mean every system/every item of a system is done locally because there are tech which can be realised/not realised by DRDO in a 'reasonable' time. DRDO is more realistic in approach now but they may need assistance in for ex - miniaturisation of the seeker, warhead, materials or such.

The question is whether that assistance will even be given. Based on current/prior details, expecting the US to assist India with any critical tech is to expect the impossible. At best, expect "build to print" model with limited TOT from the US. Typical stuff which our DPSUs are happy with SKD/CKD/limited TOT etc. But DRDO/DPSU R&D would require far more than that, which is not going to come our way. Since all that is subject to US laws as well, which prevent even TOT to frontline munna's.

AS is very gung ho on the US because like many services guys he is fed up with Russian arm twisting in terms of prices and constant haggling over TOT, and the US appears very reasonable and corporate. It will take time for him to realize the grass is not always greener..

That apart, the influence of DRDO is pretty overstated.

They were slagged/attacked publicly - media egged on by a defence mandarin, ex services- who is now Governor of a state, and the MOD did nothing.
They can't even make a DPSU cooperate on a national aircraft project, beyond a point. License production is deemed more important. MOD watches.

DRDO has basically learnt not to pick fights. They accept fait accompli's and try to make the best out of bad deals that are foisted onto them.
So if the services really want to import something and DRDO doesn't have anything ready - DRDO does not object, as versus offering to develop it etc. Similarly, if the lord and master, the MOD says something, the DRDO will comply.
Similar is the case for the DPSUs. They of course, depending on the DPSU in question, are far more restricted. As long as they keep getting production orders from MOD, all is well.

so net net, i guess, if the go ahead is given the following are built into the decision -

1. it helps DRDO at least in some areas where there is a need.

So far, DRDO has got very little from the US, words apart. Saraswat said as much a couple of years back. Similar claims of "different era" etc had been made before that. The limited assistance during the mid-stage of the LCA program is the only notable stuff and after that, came the sanctions and arm twisting.. hence, judging by the reports, the organizations wariness regarding all these new "offers"..

2. we get 'reasonable' TOT on the present Javelin.

3. India becomes the manufacturing hub for the Javelin/NG on account of being cheaper. India's pvt sector gains in terms of tech base + jobs.

4. IA gets the missile it wants. remeber IA had reservations wrt Milan 2T.

Well, that's what - one can hope that even without any magical/critical TOT, at least some commercial advantages to the industry accrue from the deal. Something like doing airframe, ancillary work for Boeing, as versus making complete jetliners, still good business..

..........................
if this proposal is not acted upon then i take it for sure, DRDO might spring a surprise by gifting a MANPORTABLE NAG to the nation as they did with PRAHAR in the near future.

Well the SAMHO, should technically be a manportable missile.. Nag will have to be heavily redesigned to be lighter, manportable is another thing entirely.

[Karan M]

Boost for Navy as Arihant gears up for arms trial

After years of joint research and development by India and Israel on the Rs 2,600-crore long range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) project, one of the naval warships has now been fitted with the launcher to test the new missile, which would be one of the mainstay weapons for Indian warships.

Parallel work is going on to arm the indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant with the LR-SAM, which will be one of the key components of the carrier’s protective suite.

<snip>

Chandra said Agni V had an accuracy in the range of 100 metres but scientists were working to improve the accuracy of long range missile within 10-15 metres. This means, even if the missile is fired from a distance of 2000-3000 km, it should hit within 15 metres of the target.

The news on LR-SAM is confusing wonlee .. But then DRDO chief's word should be good.

Then its probable the Defense News stuff regarding the LRSAM was half baked rubbish. And that the jury is still out on the missile performance.

[Karan M]

So ultimately it's SDRE's slopping there asses off to develop tech that we want, when at the end of the day we are going to develop ourselves the tech I think then you will agree that we must not pour money in developing American industry. Instead that money should be poured on our industry so that we achieve what we want.

These deals are political deals. They are basically done to "secure" future cooperation etc. Ideally, we'd do everything ourselves.
Question is whether there is business benefit in a political deal even so, and it can be made useful to some degree, even if not ideal. If negotiated well, the answer is possibly.

The same thing can be done by changing our chootiya policies as well. Tell me saar is there anything stopping us from building our pvt. military industrial capability than our MoD ???

Its not just the MOD but the Govt as a whole which does not understand the importance of having a proper MIC and how it can contribute to the national economy, if properly harnessed (of course with proper checks and balances). Only guy who seems to get it so far is Modi.

Show me a military deal where the buyer has made more money off than the seller.

If its a JV, both make money, not just one side. Even without JV, if we get license rights to make Javelin and re-export, plus codevelop the NG version and re-export, we could make money. All depends though on how the deal is drafted, US actions post deal signing and the Indian partner executing on the deal, well.

[Karan M]

Karan M,

The MK2 being spoken of, will be a game changing missile for the IAF more in the class of a Meteor. At any rate, they can get that done leveraging tech from MRSAM etc (dual propulsion, booster) once the MRSAM gets done and Astra MK1 is finished.

here is what tarmak reported in dec 2011 -

India has already developed a dual-pulse rocket motor (enahances the range) for Astra Mk-II. "Self reliance in air launched missile and particularly air-to-air system is of strategic importance considering the new paradigm of air superiority warfare," sources said.

The missile will use 'Agat' seeker from Russia which will be produced in India through a total transfer-of-technology process. The development programe will see about 100-plus missiles produced intially, thanks to the two variants and different platforms.

Tarmak Link

Thanks - interesting and backs up the premise that MRSAM tech could be leveraged for the MK-II. The Agat seeker -wonder whether we chose a more powerful seeker than that on the current R-77s or its the same..

[Sagar G]

Karan M my reply here