Vriksh wrote:True that Culms are the most cellulose rich and need to see if there is a efficient way to convert wood chips/culms to fodder. Have not looked into it yet. However it is obvious that HYV rice and wheat are stunted/short as compared to traditional rice varieties which in turn implies that we are starving animals in India to feed humans every since the Green Revolution began with drastic consequences for human protein consumption via meat and resultant protein malnutrition.
An acre of bamboo is likely to result in more than 10 times the amount of straw (no hard data right now) resulting from Paddy alone with much less water. Mature bamboo when you regularly harvest leaves does not add on too much culm matter (again I am fishing for data on this so will not be taking any bets). If I cannot create 10 times more fodder cellulose from an alternate crop as compared to Paddy straw then yes the idea will fail.
After reading about legumes and plant based proteins they provide I remain singularly unconvinced that they are complete proteins. Some essential amino acids are more or less absent in legumes and you need to get that from animal sources (look up essential amino acids ). They have to supplied from outside. Of course if someone can bioengineer a plant to supply these amino acids without going thru an animal it will revolutionary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid
Being vegetarian is withholding essential proteins from Indians, you are welcome to hamstring yourself and your kids with morals and non-violence but we are top predators and we should not forget this. Even our shastras do not prohibit meat eating. Look around you and even in India you will find that Non-Vegetarians seem to have good health (case point the NE populations). Of course those who insist on consuming a lot of fried foods will show the consequences of that choice. However I will grant you this... eating animal protein is not as necessary in mature adults but absolutely essential for pregnant women and growing kids (<18-20 years). After that a diet of carbs and lower protein is sufficient.
Granted that there is evidence that unrestrained red meat is harmful however from my observations the most healthy populations (as defined by long life, glowing skin and good musculature) today are meat eating populations of Japan and the Mediterranean. They also seem to eat a lot of fresh vegetables and fruits along with Fish and a little Wine. Personally I was a pure vegetarian when in India and have since turned to a more Japanese/Mediterreanean diet and feel much more energetic.
Some of the above is sufficiently off topic but coming back to Fodder crops... here is a question I want solid answers to
1. Are there Native Trees or Shrubs that provide excellent animal fodder and do not need to planted over and over again and can do ok in water scarce places. Some kinds of succulent cactus perhaps?
First, a disclaimer-
My intent is not to turn everyone into a vegan or vegetarian. However, to quote Einstein, “It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”
As you would have inferred by now, I am a vegan.
I was a non-vegetarian (once in a blue-moon, only on parties type), who used to have daily intake of dairy and occasional intake of egg products (lacto-ovo diet). Well, I turned vegan more than 15 years back . I do not suffer from any chronic illness nor nutrition based deficiencies. I am 5’ 11” and weigh 75 kgs. I have felt an increase in vitality and overall health ever since I turned vegan.
I would recommend the title “Fit for Life” by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond (Warner Books) to gain and insight into why vegetarianism is not only ideal but the need of the hour. My two earlier posts on this topic in this thread (one is a news item ‘Food for thought’ from, err…TOI; but an informative one) also give some insight into this dire need.
Now, to address the issue of essential amino-acids-
After reading about legumes and plant based proteins they provide I remain singularly unconvinced that they are complete proteins. Some essential amino acids are more or less absent in legumes and you need to get that from animal sources (look up essential amino acids ). They have to supplied from outside.
Well, I should say, that we need to examine your statement a bit closely to understand it better . This data has been what has been fed to us and made to believe and is one of the biggest myths that we carry thanks to the meat and dairy lobby. I will explain further-
Now, we come to an area which needs to be understood well since it forms one of the greatest ironies on the subject of protein intake (with ref. to musculature, body mass etc . Which by the way, is more a function of heredity than diet). Protein is not built in the body by eating protein. The extent to which protein is built from protein food is how well the amino acids in that food are utilized. The idea that a piece of chicken or meat that you eat will become protein in your body is absurd. Amino acids should be understood to understand the protein issue.
The body cannot use or assimilate protein in its original state as eaten. The protein must be first be digested and split into its component amino acids. The body can then use these amino acids to construct the protein it needs. Hence, the value of protein depends on its amino acid composition.
To quote Harvey, “there are no ‘essential’ amino acids in flesh that the animal did not derive from plants and that humans cannot also derive from plants. That is why all the animals of strength (e.g.- gorilla, elephants, bison etc) have all the protein they need. They build it from the abundance of amino acids that they consume eating plant life. This is also why, except in emergencies, carnivorous animals generally don’t eat other carnivorous animals. They instinctively eat animals that have eaten plant life.”
In short, all the amino acids, including ‘essential’ ones, can be had by eating fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, or sprouts on a regular basis. This way, your body gets all the protein it needs, just like the other mammals who seem to manage without eating meat. (Two recognized authorities on the habits of gorillas are John Aspinal and Adrien De Schryver. Both have indicated that in their natural habitat, gorillas, which are much closer to humans in evolutionary cycle, are voracious fruit eaters. In fact, when fruit is plentiful, they forgo the eating of any other food until the fruit is depleted).
Some sane voices keep up the truth
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .Bc.r.html but usually it is the USD power of the meat (incidentally, the sister leather industry is several times profitable than meat; and the nutrition need myth acts as a façade which floats their boats)
“In addition to scientific verification, this information can be verified simply by putting it into practice. People who eat this way over long periods of time or even lifetimes have NO protein problems. The Hunzas, Vilcabambans, Asians, and half a billion Hindus eat very little protein food in comparison with Western populations, yet have no protein deficiencies. And not surprisingly, no weight problems!!”
There are 8 amino acids which the human body has to appropriate from outside sources and most of the fruits and vegetables contain most of the 8, there are fruits and vegetables like carrots, bananas, sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, corn, cucumbers, eggplant, okra, peas, potatoes, sweet potatoes and tomatoes which contain ALL the amino acids not produced by the body. In addition, all nuts, sunflower and sesame seeds, peanuts and beans contain ALL 8 as well.
The main reason this is being questioned is because it does not fit into the scheme of what has been traditionally taught.
Of course if someone can bioengineer a plant to supply these amino acids without going thru an animal it will revolutionary.
Sir, this is already happening as I mentioned earlier, honed to perfection by Mother Nature. Only if we humans could listen!
Now, let us look at amino acids available from meat. An amino acid chain can contain anywhere from 51 to 200,000 amino acids. When meat is ingested, the chain has to be broken down and reassembled into human protein. Amino acids are somewhat delicate. The heat of cooking coagulates or destroys many of the amino acids so that they are not available for body use. Check ->
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 652b1e974e
Hence, if at all the amino acids from meat have to appropriated, it has to be from RAW meat! Incidentally, the digestive system of humans is not designed for the same, a job better left to carnivores! (it definitely makes sense to have as much salads, nuts and seeds and of course fruits; all uncooked, for ALL your amino acid needs. Period)
(as defined by long life, glowing skin and good musculature) today are meat eating populations of Japan and the Mediterranean.
As mentioned earlier, it is more to do with the hereditary make up of the population. In fact, vegetarians have been found to have longer life than non-vegetarians in all scientific studies). We in India, perhaps would need to inculcate a lot more of fruits, raw and semi cooked vegetables and of course a variety of nuts.
Being vegetarian is withholding essential proteins from Indians, you are welcome to hamstring yourself and your kids with morals and non-violence but we are top predators and we should not forget this.
There seems to be a wrong understanding of human beings as “predators”?
To bring forth an analogy by Harvey which I found interesting- Imagine that you are on a morning walk in a garden and you find a chipmunk running around. Would your instinct be to think “Wow, there goes my juicy breakfast” and run after the chipmunk and try to have it for food or derive sadistic joy by capturing and putting it to a slow death (as a carnivorous cat or dog would do; mind you such a behavior is very natural for them) or would you rather go and tell your kids back home how cute and cuddly the chipmunk was?
On the other hand, if you find a tree laden with fruits on your walk, what would your instincts be? To extend your hand and taste it, right?
Please understand that human beings are also identified for human values like trust, compassion, kindness as well which is what makes us what we are!
We are not designed to have meat, either physiologically or psychologically! (the length of the human intestine, the pH of the digestive juices, the excretion pattern etc are not conducive for meat. Please check my earlier post in this thread)
The wrong idea of human beings as “predators” has put the fragile eco systems in the world to tremendous pressure. Millions of species have become extinct due to this attitude of “superiority” over other species. I think you will have a fair idea of how the lowly butterfly in the Amazon is equally connected and responsible to providing you food in the larger eco-system. Mess with them at your own cost…simple! And rearing meat for food is the greatest contributor of deforestation!
Even our shastras do not prohibit meat eating.
Well, for that matter, I have not seen any encouraging meat eating either. Typical of the Hindu way of thinking, the seers left it need based and on individual discretion/native wisdom. For me, their view is a very practical way for ensuring sustenance of life…Say, in a famine, there might arise a need to look to meat resources!! Adhering to a particular dogma will not work in such exigencies. The point is, when you don’t have such an exigency facing under current circumstances, there would be no need to look at extreme measures as meat eating which is detrimental to the environment and human health.
Look around you and even in India you will find that Non-Vegetarians seem to have good health (case point the NE populations).
As mentioned earlier, a lot of it depends on heredity ,lifestyle and environment. An agrarian lifestyle (plenty of exercise by way of work in the fields; low stress levels), plenty of naturally available fresh air, pure water (alkalinity of water plays a pivotal role) are other variables. Just mentioning non-vegetarianism as the contributing factor is erroneous.
However I will grant you this... eating animal protein is not as necessary in mature adults but absolutely essential for pregnant women and growing kids (<18-20 years).
Sorry, I would have to disagree. Check ->
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/healthy_l ... rians.aspx
All the folic acid, iron, calcium, amino acids and other nutrition can be had from a vegetarian diet (as an aside, have you ever seen a cow drinking milk during pregnancy? All it does for its calcium is plant diet. In fact, the rennin and lactase required to digest milk by the human body is lost by the age of 5 or so and the milk anyway goes undigested! Scandalous??? !! Yet true!
Granted that there is evidence that unrestrained red meat is harmful however from my observations the most healthy populations
I am glad that you recognize this. The meat industry had to buckle under tremendous pressure due to accumulating evidence from scientific studies and the truth had to come out. But still, the new panacea is ‘white meat’ which again is harmful to human health.
) internalise the not only the ways, words and mannerisms of the rulers, but also shun their own works in various fields from architecture to arts to literature. Similarly, in medicine, we the people supposedly free from colonial perspectives, have accepted and mentally internalised the definitions of health as stated by the west. When a westerner looks from his/her perspective or a colonialised mind looks through Western eyes and minds, ancient timeless practices of Ayurveda conjure up images of “cow urine” and such and basic tenets of V,P,K appear as madrassa science! A few white sahibs and many half white sahibs that this person met invoke many such funny theories that reminds you that people still think of India being land of sarp charmers curries, tigers and you know what.