Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[samuel]

Could you kindly elaborate on the class structure of Indian communists?

[brihaspati]

from the proceedings of the 7th Congress of the CPIM (1964),

class No. of delegate
Middle Class 204
Middle Peasants 106
Rich peasants 30
Landlord 21
Working class 62
Poor peasants 44
Agrarian workers 16

You can work out the percentages - only the last three come under classical "proletariat" category. I forget the exact refernce, but I think in the 1969 WB state committee of the CPIM, as much as approxinately 3/4 belonged to the "three higher castes" (Brahmin, Kayastha,Vaidyas - probably from a lot of Sens/SenGuptas) - all university educated, and almost none ever worked manually - same for the State secretariat.

The picture remains unchanged and has even worsened since 1978. Source : the Party Congress documents, and internal lists, not always available to the public.

[brihaspati]

Roughly 10 years ago, the state comm of one state had none of working class/small-marginal-landless peasant origin - and by my reckoning roughly 85% were from the "upper castes", the key posts were held by "Brahmins and Kayasthas" from traditional ruling elite background. The communists also show a peculiar lack of confidence in women as leaders at the topmost levels - and there is also a tendencey to "marry" off "promising" "female leadership" to even "higher male leadership". The picture improves with the diminishing membership sizes over the states, and very left-hostile scenarios show more "proletariat" proportion. In all committees at every level, the key posts were held by someone of elite background. I also found that traditional negative sterotypes about Brahmins, mostly concerning ego/power appeared to hold true more within such committees than in the general society. In youth and student frontal organizations picture doies not change much either. Kerala I think is better off than WB, but somehow in accommodating the class balance - it has also brought in traditional clan/caste divides in a hidden form - within communist parties personal rivalries usually take the outward form of polemical battles.

[ramana]

I have this theory that class leadership has ensured that the Indian commies wont take up violent struggle. I recall the Andhra Naxalite leader quoting the Srimad Bhagavatam to describe the depredations of the officials to justify their 'struggle'.

[brihaspati]

Ramanaji,
I am not so sure about the non-violence bit. The early Naxalite leadership was almost entirely "upper caste". Even now there is a steady stream of "upper-caste", highly educated, youth from the "majority community" eager to join in the "violent/armed insurrection" branch of Indian communism. They typically get recruited in the elite engineering/medical institutions - more so in the engineering campuses. If you think of it, most of the campuses I know of, are in proximity with tribal belts, remote and difficult terrain. Most of India's elite institutes have groups in touch with Naxalites for recruitment purpose. I have never seen Muslim youth being recruited into Naxal leadership but it could happen at some levels - most unlikely though as you don't find Muslims in remote/unfertile/forest areas. My impression was that this was youth from a class used to being comfortable with power/taking initiative - and this is just a promise of profound change from alienation that they might feel in their immediate surroundings. The Leftists, irrespective of where they lie w.r.t the parliamentary road, also split the potential leadership from the youth of the majority community. This does not damage the "minority" communities. This I feel is one of the most damaging aspects of the communist movements in India - and a comprehensive strategy should be worked out to prevent recruitment.

[Dhiman]

...It is not clear how far such support will amount to in real terms - at a preliminary level it could simply be permanent tracking systems but manned under US control (like the advanced radar based systems supposed to be put up in Israel over which Israel itself will have no control).

brihaspatiji,

Some of your ramblings are starting to sound loonier and loonier day by day. First you said something about all Hindus converting to either Islam or Christianity (thereby changing Islam and Christianity and homogenizing India), now you are talking about US control of Indian defense assets. Which cloud are you floating on? Definitely like to smoke whatever you are smoking. As far as I know this forum is called "Bharat Rakshak", i.e in defense of "Bharat" not "irreparably change the culture, security scenario, and culture of Bharat." Please be more realistic instead of weaving palaces in air. If I had to hunt out "spies" on BRF, you would be on the top of the list

[RayC]

To be frank, the title of the thread is:

Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent.

We seem to be playing hop scotch!

Or have I missed something?

[brihaspati]

Some of your ramblings are starting to sound loonier and loonier day by day. First you said something about all Hindus converting to either Islam or Christianity (thereby changing Islam and Christianity and homogenizing India), now you are talking about US control of Indian defense assets. Which cloud are you floating on. Definitely like to smoke whatever you are smoking. As far as I know this forum is called "Bharat Rakshak", i.e in defense of "Bharat" not "irreparably change the culture, security scenario, and culture of Bharat." Please be more realistic instead of weaving palaces in air.

These comments were simply a plain attempt to show what the corresponding postor's ideas meant if implemented.
Someone else wrote about "missile shield discussions withe US" referenced here by a BRfite - I was simply trying to show the possible fallouts and absurdities - these are not my recommendations

Regarding "Hindus converting to ,,," etc., you have to read up the earlier discussions. Someone found a particular minority religion sceintific, and because I gently protested about relevance, was given a lesson in obedience to authority. Moreover, the issue apparently was whined about where a novel method of discovering "Hindutva" chaps was discovered. I was smoking perhaps, but not on substance abuse, but in anger. And I simply wrote out the fallouts of such attitudes - if you feel anything which you dub "Hindu" to be evil and find the revealed traditions more scientific and fit to be practised - and you have to base your nationalism on the rejection of the roots of your birth culture without perhaps even knowing all the elements of your birth culture - and still claim to homogenize - then these are the possible methods

These are not my personal leanings or my preferred options - and if you read carefully, you will notice that in each case I have included one option which differs from the others - the "uncompromising with the revealed traditions" ones, and if you read all of my postings you will realize where my sympathies lie.

Anyway, we have moved away from the religious discussions - gone into another of the "pseudo-religions" - communism, surely at least there you find clearly from my comments what side of the ideological spectrum I come from.

We are not playing hop-scotch, we are disposing of ideological difficulties in the way of national consolidation - we started with certain religions which some of use felt were in the way and which others then felt the need to protect. We have not resolved the issue, but someone meanwhile also raised the issue of communism which we have taken up. These are ideological and related problems that are causing and will continue to be of strategic concern. In spite of ignoring them and beliitling them or defending them or justifying them - they do not seem to go away, simply because we do not like discussing them and fixing responsibility for them. They are absorbing huge amounts of national resources and causing substantial damages and show no signs of abating. Therefore they are important issues of strategic concern for the future.

[brihaspati]

Reposting for clarification for those confused about the source substance inspiring the delirium:

(1) Ideological :
(a) religion in the subcontinent is one factor that prevents consolidation of the core, in the sense of inter-religion perceptions of conflict, the three major contenders in this are certain sections within "Hinduism", most sections within Islam, and Christianity. The most divided in reaction is of course the "Hindus" and not all Hindus are concerned about this conflict and and some Hindus may even prefer or admire elements in other "contesting" religions or follow elements of these other religions in their daily life. There is little or no such tendencies within Islam or Christianity. Given the Hindu propensity to protect, defend or admire the other "contesting" creeds, could have been expected to lead to a syncretic common ideology by now, which could have been a consolidating factor. Somehow, all Hindu admiration or even following/adopting of contesting religious practices have not led to this consolidation. This creates a divided society, where sections of populations affiliated to the three main contenders continue in not-always-obvious mutual distrust. These divisions in themselves need not have been a problem where external policy was concerned, if no contenders were seen to have external affiliations that predominate their thoughts or behaviour.
Unfortunately at least for Islam and Christianity, with their professed affiliations to centres outside the core, and in the case of Islam having overlapping connections with Pakistan, preserves mutual distrust. This in turn creates pressures and tensions on any elected government when it comes to deciding about concrete actions with respect to external entities that may affect the centres to which one or more religions may have affiliation to, outside of India.

Possible solutions :
(i) encourage the syncretic faction within Hinduism, the largest group - to admire and adopt elements of two other contesting religions so that interfaith distance decreases overall. Historical and current experience suggests that there is less hope of imitating this behaviour from within the two other faiths. In the past ex-Hindu converts into Islam have played pivotal role in the spread of Islam, and such people could again help in the religious homegenization of the core. Once everyone comes under Islam or Christianity the homeogenization problem is solved. (sarcastic, not my preference)
(ii) specifically ask each religion to formally declare themselves against explictly stated elements in their claimed core texts, that are incompatible with a modern society. For religions having centres outside of the subcontinent, these elements should also have to be specifically chosen strategically so that it diassociates the members in the core from these external centres. Better still if the elements are so crucial in the external centre's thought process, that declaring aginst them would make the subcontinetal followers themselves the targets of external centres. (my preference)
(iii) declare that religion is not important for future strategic thinking about the subcontinent, and enforce this thought with authority. If successful, it can possibly get us out of any trouble with religion as an obstruction to consolidation of the core. This of course depends on the existence of authority figures acceptable to the majority of the populations, but if such authority exists, then they can cover for the growth of determined minorities who can take over the entire population in the name of any one particular religion when they are ready.(sarcastic, not my preference)


(b) non-religious political ideology : the primary division in the non-religious political ideology sphere is that between Marxism and anti-marxism. Most purely political divides fall in between the two extreme positions. An extreme pro-Marxist interpretation has been seen by some as a solution to the core's problems, leading to various Left experiments. Each of the splits in the CPI have actually occurred at dissatisfaction with parent party's lack of radicalism. This has resulted in Naxalism taking roots in large tracts of the core. The anti-Marxist position sees all Leftist positions as "evil" - for a variety of reasons ranging from economic inefficieny to anti-spiritual to foreign. The Leftist position on the other hand primarily sees only one "evil" on the subcontinent - the problem of "Hindutva", the only problem that is an ideological problem similar to Fascism while all others including Islamic or other forms of extremism as merely reaction to this Fascism or traditional exploitation and purely economic in origin. This conflict creates obvious problems in formulating clear or aggressive policies against terror seen to supported by religions or cultural values, and paralyzes the core.

possible solutions
(i) allow the Naxals to expand, as they have shown themselves to be successful at retaining leadership in the hands of elements originating from the elite within the majority Hindus, (a surname list of the top leadership usually reads like a whos-who of "top-order" Hindu "castes"), at enlisting interfaith support - from Islam and Christianity and claim to be based on scientific, modern and progressive dogma. They have the potential at least in theory to overcome all class, religious, and ethnic divides - they may even solve the political fracture problems as whereever their model has succeeded, they simply "liquidated" such problems. Their expansion will consolidate the core. (sarcastic, not my preference)
(ii) try a live-and-let-live formula with leftist extremism and make alliances with parliamentarian Left, proclaiming that Left-non-Left conflict was not a significant issue for the strategic future of the subcontinent. This will allow the Naxals (more than the Left parliamentarians) to ultimately exapand and take over the core completely resulting in consolidation of the core. (sarcastic, not my preference)
(iii) put in place immediate encirclement and liquidation campaigns to finish off military power of Naxals, and simultaneously launch an economic charm offensive to remove popular support. Isolate the Left parliamentarians by consolidating the Right, with the ultimate aim of removing popular support from them. (my preference)

(c) question of reconstructions of history :
Historical reconstructions by the Thaparite School of Indian history creates tensions and fractures within the core in two ways - first it clashes with the oral traditions and folk memories of atrocities, and secondly it creates modern justifications for protection of certain religious thoughts formally under whose cover other, hidden violent elements can flourish. This also encourages self-hatred, and extreme anger at one's own origins perhaps if a core member comes from the only evil religion/culture as per hsitorical reconctructions. Such members are also causes of tension and fracture because they are in two minds about their affiliations and try to compensate by espousing the non-evil ideologies.

possible solutions
(i) enforce the Thaparite version compulsorily, which will weaken the "Hindus" sufficiently given that they are already quite fractured and confused over reactions to other ideologies, and the more vulnerable among them will use their "fanaticism" or love for power to liquidate any contrary opinion. This results in a homogenized and consolidated core dominated by more authoritarian and relatively far less confused ideologies like Islam or Christianity which are rarely unsure about their agenda. (sarcastic, not my preference)
(ii) insist on a public discourse, and educational access to core texts and narratives, without the benefit of editing and misrepresentations or whitewashing under interested "preachers" - (after all, the most vociferous of those who are deemed experts on the niceties of and lack of barbarity in Islam in India, like Prof. Romilla Thapar did not study in Madrassahs to become experts on historical Islam) besides formal and modern interpretations from exact sciences - archaeology, genetics, etc. This will bring a convergence of opinions about the past and place it on solid, really "scientific" basis - not based on individual claims of scientific basis of individual ideologies or versions of history. This can also weaken affiliations to staunch and particular positions on divisive religious and cultural identities, (my preference)

[Dhiman]

I was simply trying to show the possible fallouts and absurdities - these are not my recommendations

Well these ideas are still bouncing around in your posts when they should actually be bouncing in a place called "loony land" where the rains go up and the smoke comes down.

if you feel anything which you dub "Hindu" to be evil and find the revealed traditions more scientific and fit to be practised - and you have to base your nationalism on the rejection of the roots of your birth culture without perhaps even knowing all the elements of your birth culture - and still claim to homogenize - then these are the possible methods

Wow, this just made perfect sense.... in loony land Care you break it up in simple sentences next time. One point per sentence?

Nothing personal. Have fun.

[ramana]

You have anything to contribute except that?

[RayC]

I think we are saying the same thing in the thread: Strategic leadership for the future of India

and that thread is very coherent and very illuminating.

The issue here is the strategic scenario. These were the specific issues raised:

Specific Questions (as raised by you to open the thread and very valid and contemporary):

(1) How far will the periphery develop new interconnections among themselves with respect to the core?
(2) How far will the core's existing strategic thinking need to change with respect to the periphery as a comprehensive unit?
(3) What should India's strategic thinking be about the future of the area currently known as Pakistan?
(4) How will (3) be related/affected/affecting the rest of the periphery?
(5) Is an Afghan front of war against terror opened by the core strategically necessary and beneficial when thinking in terms of the entire periphery and not just about Pakistan?
(6) Can a consistent policy for the entire periphery be developed with long term strategic goals not just for the internal territory of the current core but also for the entire periphery that leads to a sutainable setup?

I appreciate that there can be a plethora of aspects that would influence the strategic scenario. Therefore, when a new angle is thrown up, it should not appear disjointed and instead a continuation of the discussion. Right now, it appears that that continuity is being sacrificed, albeit for very profound thoughts!

I don't think dubbing things 'Hindu', where relevant is incorrect, but it must be used in its correct perspective, without making non Hindus feel 'small'. It is not that non Hindus are pure and pristine, it is just that the country is secular and with the way there is a surge of religious problems, one wonders if there is any requirement to get the hackles up since that loses the importance of what one says.

Also, if one puts the idea that one wants to convey in short sentences and syntax that many would feel comfortable with, then one would win the day! Right now, it appears esoteric!

[RayC]

"culture" like China which claims Tibet is part of Chinese cultural heritage to hold on to it and jeopardizes the top priority "rights" like "free speech" for Tibetans.

Brihaspati,

The Chinese do not claim that Tibet is a part of Chinese cultural heritage. They are trying to make the Tibetans and Uighurs part of the Chinese cultural heritage.

One has to understand China from the Chinese standpoint and their history.

China has expanded their Middle Kingdom (Zhōngguó) through conquests.

Han Chinese culturalism arose to distinguish between the culture of the Han, or inner people (nei ren), and the "barbarians," the outer people (wai ren). The Chinese social institutions and their feeling of cultural and aesthetic superiority have provided the reassurance to the Han people in the face of barbarian penetration or conquest.

The concept of Han culture started with the Shang Dynasty whose political centre was North of the Yellow River. They inculcated the sense of Han superiority into the population and designated the surrounding peoples as ‘barbarians’. The surrounding peoples who assimilated the Han culture were termed as ‘cooked barbarians’ (shufan) and those who refused to assimilate the Han culture were termed as ‘raw barbarians’ (shengfan).

Barbarians were given generic names: Yi barbarians to the East, Man to the South, Rong to the West and Di to the North.

Names of the ‘out groups’ (wai ren) were commonly written with animal radicals: Di, a northern tribe was linked to the Dog, Man and Min of the South with the reptile, and the Qiang with the Sheep. This reflected the Han mindset of linking civilisation and culture. This practice was stopped after 1931.

Rather than outright conquest of outsider, China (the Middle Kingdom), the theory of ‘using the Chinese way to transform the barbarian’ (yongxiabianyi) was used. Through cultural absorption and intermarriage, a barabarian could become a Han Chinese (handhua).

What China is doing in Tibet and Xingjian is but using the Chinese way to transform the barbarians. Unfortunately for them, the world order has changed and peoples all over the world are aware of the nationalism and subnationalism and are fiercely guarding the same as in the case of Tibet and even Xingjian.

Another issue that one must understand is their concept of Legalism.

Legalism was a pragmatic political philosophy that does not address higher questions like the nature and purpose of life. It has maxims like "when the epoch changed, legalism is the act of following all laws", and its essential principle is one of jurisprudence. "Legalism" here has the meaning of "political philosophy that upholds the rule of law", and is thus distinguished from the Western meaning of the word. The school's most famous proponent and contributor Han Fei believed that a ruler should govern his subjects by the following trinity:
1. Fa (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law or principle"): The law code must be clearly written and made public. All people under the ruler were equal before the law. Laws should reward those who obey them and punish accordingly those who dare to break them. Thus it is guaranteed that actions taken are systematically predictable. In addition, the system of law ran the state, not the ruler. If the law is successfully enforced, even a weak ruler will be strong.
2. Shu (Chinese: 術; pinyin: shù; literally "method, tactic or art"): Special tactics and "secrets" are to be employed by the ruler to make sure others don't take over control of the state. Especially important is that no one can fathom the ruler's motivations, and thus no one can know which behaviour might help them getting ahead; except for following the 法 or laws.
3. Shi (Chinese: 勢; pinyin: shì; literally "legitimacy, power or charisma"): It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself or herself, that holds the power. Therefore, analysis of the trends, the context, and the facts are essential for a real ruler.


China will not change from their ancient philosophies that have held them in good stead. China’s rejection of talks with the HH Dalai Lama’s people indicates the contempt they hold for ‘out group/ outsiders’ as also the total disdain they displayed during Mao Tse Tung’s tenure. The fact that the Three years of Natural Disaster and the Cultural Revolution or the Tiananmen Square massacre evoked no national outrage is indicative of the Philosophy of Legalism working. The Han people will remain the sheep they are.

The manner in which the Hans are crushing religion in Tibet and Xingjian indicates that the Chinese Communists fear religion, which is a binding factor and hence are worried about the power and authority of the Dalai Lama. As it is, they have spirited away the chosen Panchen Lama and put in their fraudulent Panchen Lama. In Xingjian, the Moslem clergy as is with other religions in China are cleared by the PRC government and they can give sermons that are approved by the State. In Xingjian, no Islamic education can be imparted to children below 18 years of age and till one is 18, no Moslem can enter the Mosque!

The Chinese are in an overdrive to root out religion of the ‘barbarians’ and replace it with Han culture, so that it opens up the path for conquest through the “Chinese way”.

I am sorry that I am also contributing to veering the thread away from the main questions addressed by you.

This is off topic and is only to explain that Tibet and many areas of China are not historically their cultural preserve.

Let it not derail the discussion.

[brihaspati]

This is off topic and is only to explain that Tibet and many areas of China are not historically their cultural preserve.

No this is not derailing the topic, and very relevant. Actually, I did not try to say that "it is part of Chinese cultural heritage" but that the Chinese try to say that Tibet "is an integral part" of China and that this is by long historical tradition. There is some historical evidence showing that the Chinese desperately tried out alliances with the then independent kingdom of Kashmir, and other kingdoms in the north and south of India to checkmate the rising power of Tibet.

As for the other issues - the question of dealing with religions, and communism, comes up simply because they appear to divide our society in formulating consistent strategies to deal with the initial items that you quote. For example, even though the public face of religions as well as spokespersons from the Left have condemned the Mumbai attacks - the mobilizer behind the attacks still seem to be a matter of dispute for some among them. All condemn attacks, but from among ideologically commited, we still see a refusal to place responsibility and identify the common source - the country and the ideology which uses each other to mount terror. This then becomes a key issue, which needs to be addressed. Thats all!

My only contention was if religions insist on "not integrating" and dividing up societal unity on questions of future strategic choices, we have to force the religions to "fall in line". Any loyalty or affiliation, that gives priority to centres or interests outside that of the core, have to be dissolved. Religious cultures cannot claim immunity from forces of modernization - and have to publicly forego elements that are out of place with a modern humane and fair society. By making religious claims of immunity and distinction subservient to national/core interests we can bring a national focus to issues of national importance.

I hope we all realize that by avoiding discussing the need to force religions or ideologies like communism to modify themselves (or if unable to modify - to go) we simply postpone having to deal with the problem. The longer we wait the more it gets out of hand.

[brihaspati]

In discussing the communist problem in the subcontinent, I mentioned that ethnic identities are used by the communists for support. In fact, we will probably see a pattern. Ethnic divide = religious/caste divide = communist/non-communist divide. Most of the periphery have formed into independent countries again based on this sort divides, and claimed distance or separation from the core.

We are yet to have a clear-cut policy with regards to ethnic separatism. This becomes significant, if we are thinking of supporting Balochi independence sometime in the future, but refusing ULFA or Karbi-Anglong demands, and remaining silent on PVK's dance in SL. Wherever possible, religious groups as well as Leftist extremists are using this to farther their own cause. Within the core itself, we have had reoerganizations and sub-sub-sub divisions to accommodate ethnic or cultural identities and demands for autonomy. Just like in the peripheral countries, we are not thinking of whether such smaller units are viable on their own or not.

Any ideas?

[RayC]

It might sound rather unpatriotic, but if one visits the NE, one would really feel that Delhi subscribes and rubs it in that Delhi really is bahut door!

That is why there are the insurgencies. If you feel neglected, you will do something to show that you, too, exist.

One could read Lt Gen John Mukherjee's book "Insurgency in India's North East". He is married to a Mizo and was the Colonel of the ASSAM Regiment and he wrote this book while in service! He has commanded a Division in the NE and retired as the Chief of Staff, Eastern Command.

[Rudradev]

Has anyone noted that, in the aftermath of Swami Laxmanananda's murder in Orissa, there has been a split among the CPI-Maoist group responsible?

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 301023.htm

There are reports of a group of Hindu Maoists splitting from the CPI-Maoist wing led by Sabyasachi Panda (who justified the Swami's assassination by saying that many of the Maoist cadres were Christian).

In light of some other things mentioned on this thread about the potential of Maoists to contribute to India's political destiny by virtue of the grassroots space they occupy... we may want to think about why this has happened. Indians who take up the gun out of desperation still remain Indians; and there are symbols which will move them more profoundly than any "Little Red Book", or even Missionary funds, because those symbols carry the civilizational heft of many thousands of years.

In this context, we may also want to study the little-told story of the Iranian revolution of 1979 (rarely told, because it leaves the CIA smelling like garbage for their support of the Pehlavi Despot).

That revolution's intellectual and political impetus was initially generated by Left-Wing and Marxist intellectuals against the Shah's regime. They were the organizers, the dissidents, the political prisoners, the media voices of the anti-Shah resistance. The Ayatollahs diverted the cascade of events once it had reached the point of no-return, channeling the process in favour of an Islamic revolution... and they were able to do this because the symbols they represented had been speaking to the popular consciousness of the grassroots Iranian for centuries longer than the leftist intellectual elite... five times every day from the nearest minaret. Even the leftists who initially were in charge of the revolution, reconciled themselves to the Islamist re-direction of the revolutionary movement, recognizing that the common Iranians needed religion as a rallying symbol to promote cohesion.

[Rahul M]

It might sound rather unpatriotic, but if one visits the NE, one would really feel that Delhi subscribes and rubs it in that Delhi really is bahut door!

that is very true.

ND has meted out step-motherly treatment to the NE since independence, virtually continuing on the colonial policies of the british in treating this populace as sub-human.

I have some idea about the psyche of people from NE (manipur to be exact) albeit anecdotal, and it is a pain to hear the sheer frustration that these people have to live through due to the apathy of the ruling elite in delhi.

[samuel]

There is plenty of, IOW, unintegrated periphery within the current boundaries of India itself that we need not just yet set our eyes on the braided bunch. The obvious danger being, of course, that these go too, thanks to action at our boundaries. Can we mid point the future and look at how the core expands to J&K and the NE?

S

[brihaspati]

Regarding J&K, and NE, is it possible to think of applying "dependent development"? Somewhere else I broached the idea (probably reinventing the wheel) that J&K's main economic product - Kashmir valley's agricultural products, could be sent to agro-based industries - for producing value added fruit products say, in Jammu. Jammu would be easier to develop for industrial infrastructure. Similarly Ladakhis could be encouraged (and financially helped) to take to animal husbandry at least for the state markets or if possible for larger markets. Modern business methods could turn traditional products into attractively packaged and promoted commodities for the greater Indian markets.

I know it sounds cynical and mischievous : But if we can justify policies that deliberately promote mutual economic dependence and necessary partneships in prosperity, it can go a long way in absorption into the core. I am not simply asking for investments or aids - I am also asking for economic policies that promote both growth and dependence. The same could also go for NE.

What has been mentioned here about "neglect of NE" is definitely true. No attempt has ever been seriously made to incorporate the NE in mutual dependence with industries or markets in the rest of India.

[samuel]

But Is economic co-dependence (or interdependence) merely necessary or is it sufficient for integration, too?

[brihaspati]

Rudradev wrote
That revolution's intellectual and political impetus was initially generated by Left-Wing and Marxist intellectuals against the Shah's regime. They were the organizers, the dissidents, the political prisoners, the media voices of the anti-Shah resistance. The Ayatollahs diverted the cascade of events once it had reached the point of no-return, channeling the process in favour of an Islamic revolution... and they were able to do this because the symbols they represented had been speaking to the popular consciousness of the grassroots Iranian for centuries longer than the leftist intellectual elite... five times every day from the nearest minaret. Even the leftists who initially were in charge of the revolution, reconciled themselves to the Islamist re-direction of the revolutionary movement, recognizing that the common Iranians needed religion as a rallying symbol to promote cohesion.

This is true. In fact a similar process happened in Iraq. In both cases the religious establishment hijacked public dissatisfaction to ultimately promote their own agenda.

Question is, which religious establishment in India has the vision/agenda/determination to take over the wayward flock of ex or current communists? It will be similar to riding a tiger. Since EJ's have already tried it out, there are only two other potential contenders. One of these are relatively absent within communist movements in general, (very few, the last youth state committee I remember had just 2 out of about 56 - much less than the state population proportion of 1:4). This religion also did not spread/settle much in tribal areas in remote forest/unproductive areas - the strongest recruitment area of extremist communists. So that leaves the "majority community".

It will be an astute move from such organizations. But, how far will it be successful and how far will it go? A dilution of strict hierarchies and refornulation of the basic ideological structures from the "majority" can succeed, and is perhaps the best way forward anyway. Thorny and tricky questions of "caste" and "tribal hierarchies/antagonisms" have to be answered and cannot be done from within the "religion" as commonly still formulated. This can be changed, and probably will have to be done anyway (my point about "religions must fall in line" ) . But without the required reformulations, it can all simply degenerate into confirmation of divisions whereas we need more homogenization (I am fearing more entrenched "caste/jati" feelings).

I think we have to be pragmatic about it. Using a modification of the majority culture (and not necessarily the textual claims of the formal religion by certain schools of priesthood) as the starting point allows least departure for the majority of the populations. But this reformulation must carefully remove all factors that promote division. It can then become the basis for drawing in all "marginalized" people. If such a method is being applied to draw in the "Maoists", well and good - if not, it should stop. We have had enough mischief from divisions and hierarchies imposed in the name of supra-human authority.

[Prasad]

But Is economic co-dependence (or interdependence) merely necessary or is it sufficient for integration, too?

This intra-state economic interaction can be likened to trade between two countries. More trade would mean more interaction and more flow of people from one place to the other. This would mean better understanding of cultures and more acceptance of the people and culture as commonplace. Since its within a country, movement of people etc wouldnt be hindered to a great extent.

However, given the current state of the NE, the GoI needs to sink in a lot of money for basic infra so that trade can flourish with other parts of the country. That is the big question however.

Is it sufficient for integration? No. But does it help? Yes in a big way.

[brihaspati]

But Is economic co-dependence (or interdependence) merely necessary or is it sufficient for integration, too?

I do not think it is sufficient, but necessary. The British used it on a grand scale for India-UK relations. It did not guarantee continued political control for the British. However, it still had a long-lasting dependence effect at least on the ruling elite - which we still see and suffer consequences of. Learning from the British, it ultimately probably also brings in questions of "common culture" or mutual cultural absorption, marital admixture (the greatest blurr-er of divides - ), use of common languages - but cultural and philosophical homegeneity. Sufficiency ? - Homogeneous physical or anthropometric appearance - brings in "kinship" assurances perhaps hardcoded into human brain! theres a hint about how it can be achieved!

[samuel]

Isn't the problem that we are facing in J&K and NE a lack of cultural assimilation as opposed to economic interconnections, which in fact appear strong enough, or is that not true? I mean who else does NE & JK trade with (ignoring the recent overture to PoK)?

Let me suggest an algorithm for expansion of the core. It is a pretty straightforward algorithm that describes process but not the machinations necessary for its application.

Let us call it the frontier propagating smoother. It works like this (demonstrated on a line, but true in arbitrary dimensions of geopolitical features):

Assume that there are knots on a long string starting left to right, which we shall call the whole interval. The knot on the left is the core at the beginning. The knot next to it is its closest neighbor in some well-defined sense.

After the Kth assimilation step, the first K nodes are the core, the K+1th is periphery and K+2 is external.
What you do then is

1. Place a boundary between K+1 and K+2. This is the outer frontier.
2. Run a smoother from 1 to K+1, ensuring that no information transfers between K+1 and K+2.
   1. The smoother takes information from 1 passes it to node 2. Node 2 blends incoming info with its own and passes the result to 3. 3 does the same and in this way information reaches all the way to node K+1. This is called the forward sweep of the inner frontier.
   2. Then information is passed back from K+1 to 1, smoothing differences back to 1. This is called the reverse sweep of the inner frontier.
   This process typically converges after a few forward-reverse sweeps, especially when the outer frontier well-separates the core and periphery from external. In the end, there is a smooth connection from 1 to K+1 and all information has been absorbed by all nodes. When node K+1 is assimilated, we are ready for the next step. Note: information means democratic, cultural, religious or economic values that define connection between elements of a core.
3. Node K+2 is prepared for assimilation by being flooded with information, weakening it using the enormously large mass that 1...K+1 represents. The idea is to ensure the polarity of correlation between the core (1...K+1) and K+2 is positive (this may require a military solution), so that assimilation of the latter does not weaken the core.
4. The outer frontier is moved between K+2 and K+3. Repeat.

This method of assimilating complex information topologies works like a charm in amazingly different kinds of networks. It can be shown that in many cases that this is optimal and in those cases where it isn't, the method is an excellent approximation.

What's the idea then? Stop samjhauta'ing. Secure your boundaries. Integrate JK and NE. Ensure that the nation's needs are understood by them and address their grievances sincerely. Make them part of our culture and absorb theirs. With that kind of unity developed, pick a neighbor to move the frontier to. Weaken them.
- Repeat.

There obviously are variations, complications, but the proposed, I think, is a reasonable and general approach for expansion of the core.

JMT.
S

PS: You may note the similarity to minimax optimization.

[Rahul M]

Samuel ji, problems of NE and J&K have some superficial similarities in that both have terror groups with long running separatist agendas. But the similarity ends there.

Only nagaland and NSCN, has some passing similarity as it strove to create an independent state based upon religion aided by foreign vested interests.
The other insurgent groups are more on the line of unemployed youth finding a livelihood in militant organisations.
In any other place what would have been called a thriving mafia cartel is given a political colour in the NE because of some political slogans uttered by the godfathers in the days of antiquity.

The objectives and modus operandi of today's insurgents in the NE is little different from that of a well-organised crime ring.
The lack of cultural assimilation with RoI is much over-hyped IMO, whatever dissimilarities there are doesn't weigh upon the populace like a millstone, the lack of religious blinkers unlike kashmir being a possible reason. The similarities too, are nothing insignificant.
The insurgent movements in the NE at the moment are fueled by and large by the discontent and dissatisfaction with lack of development and absence of employment opportunities. The Indian growth story is something that has the capacity to address both these problems and inter-state trade relations might just be the magic pill to solve much of the problems in NE.

One reason why such movements always get a political overtone may be rooted in the fact that the proportion of educated unemployed is much larger in the NE, which in turn is a reflection of the high literacy rates there.
All of the NE states have a literacy rate higher than the national average with mizoram leading the country at 91%. In spite of that, the average manipuri or tripura-vasi has little enmity towards the RoI and that I believe is testament to the fact that there is little fundamentally divergent in the interests of an average manipuri or an average jharkhandi, for example.

JMT.

[Dhiman]

ND has meted out step-motherly treatment to the NE since independence, virtually continuing on the colonial policies of the british in treating this populace as sub-human.

I have some idea about the psyche of people from NE (manipur to be exact) albeit anecdotal, and it is a pain to hear the sheer frustration that these people have to live through due to the apathy of the ruling elite in delhi.

Having lived in Shillong (Meghalaya) for around 2 years (while smuggling goods back and forth from the country formerly known as Burma ), I tend to think that your statement regarding GoI continuing colonial policies (or even the extent of step-motherly treatment) is somewhat mistaken.

From the perspective of people who live in Meghalaya (Khasis and Garos), the primary issue of concern is how they can best maintain their unique cultural and ethnic identity without getting overwhelmed by people who come/visit from the "plains". To allay these concerns GoI has had long standing policy here of not letting people from outside the state to buy land; however, given their "relatively" small population size, they are still very concerned about any potential loss of culture and identities.

Any proposal to build a direct air and rail link by GoI (and there is pretty much an open offer by GoI on this) is rejected outright as it may lead to influx of outsiders. Marriage of women with "outsiders" is another cause for concern (specially as women have started going to bigger cities for education and jobs) that is on their radars since inheritance of land and wealth is along maternal lines (as opposed to being along paternal lines among "outsiders") and may potentially again lead to loss of identity as property falls into outsider hands.

So the issue, in my opinion, is not that GoI is being step motherly or worse colonial, but how NE can be developed, integrated, and jobs created without threatening unique cultural and ethnic identities. However, the people who live in Shillong are very well aware of their identities as "Indians" also. They dislike TSP as much as anyone from "plains" will and would be able to give any jingo here a good run for their money.

Meghalaya is not the only area where "outsiders" are not allowed to buy land. some other areas that fall into this category are J&K, much of NE, A&N islands, Lakshdweep, Himachal Pradesh, and probably more. I doubt it if GoI would be doing this if it had "colonial" tendencies.

P.S: The idea or even the consideration of somehow homogenizing India is "loony". Will never happen and I don't see what could be the benefit that comes out of it. We are inherently heterogeneous so much so that being heterogeneous is part of our collective identity.

[AKalam]

Now, this is what I call Territorial Cosmopolitanism in practice, a system that is more akin to EU. An exact opposite to PRC. My brief analysis of PRC and Han Chinese:

A powerful large system today in the world stage is rising China. How did today's China become a large system? Han Chinese who are 92% of PRC population (1.2 billion), actually became a nation in an integration process lasting for more than 1800 years, starting from Shang in 1600 BC to the end of Han around 220 AD. Since then it remained intact during Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming and Qing (pronounced Ching) dynasties. During Mongol and Manchu dominated Yuan and Qing dynasties, Tibet, Mongolia and Xinjiang regions were added, although Tang had a hold on Xinjiang area as well. So the Historical Continuity of Han Chinese with its huge population, united as one nation for more than 2000 years and living under a single imperial ruling dynasty (although the dynasties changed) is remarkable. It has however some major weaknesses. For the last eight hundred years it was subjugated twice, once by Mongols and a second time by Jurchens allied with Mongols. Mongol rule was particularly harsh, where the Han were treated as fourth class citizens and under Jurchen (Manchu) Qing, the Han were treated slightly better but still as second class citizens, with no permission of intermarriage with Manchu officials. Saving Han majority from oppressive Manchu rule was one of the rallying cry of Sun Yat Sen, one of the founders of Republic of China. To summarize, I should say that the Han Chinese civilization is one of the largest in number in the world, one of the oldest and as a result a highly integrated group. But at the same time, it was devastated twice and lived under foreign domination under Mongol Yuan and Jurchen/Mongol alliance Manchu Qing. Finally after WWII it was again devastated under a foreign idea imported from Europe called communism, which created further devastation for Han Chinese. As of today the Han Chinese are still subjugated and under spell from this strange idea that came out of the head of two unique individuals (Marx and Angels) and modified to Chinese sensibilities and circumstances by Mao as Maoism. Lately China has been moving more towards capitalistic market economy. Sometimes I wonder if communism was a way to defeat the entrenched Manchu land owners, aristocrats and feudal lords and create a new Han elite under communist rule, may be someone more knowledgeable can elaborate on this. So we could safely call Han Chinese a wounded civilization, still a little lost, but slowly getting back to its former greatness. The occupation of Tibet, Xinjiang and South (Inner) Mongolia, against the will of these non-Han people, and the ongoing demographic invasion to secure these regions against any potential "splittist" rebellion is a major symptom of a people insecure about its own ability to hold on to these occupied areas whose native inhabitants could not be trusted. In addition an attempt to sinify these three non-Han or non-Chinese people by suppressing their own ancient culture, tradition and religion and replace their identity with a Han identity is violation of fundamental human rights and goes against UN mandated Universal Human Rights and is a serious international offense.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[Rahul M]

akl, situations in all the NE states are different from the others and a generalisation is bound for pitfalls. meghalaya is of course quite a bit different from the other states in NE and my comments in the 2nd post on NE do not apply in general.

that said, I would like to know what you think GoI has done for development of meghalaya, since you are contesting the "step-motherly" phrase.

[brihaspati]

Ownership of land is a crucial issue wherever, land remains the single largest source of production, value and income. Although this is not the main thrust of this thread, the land question is repeatedly coming up recently - as in numerous peasant and tribal movements (of course with interested political groups giving them focus and particular confrontational shape). However restricting our attention to the critical peripheral regions, like J&K and NE, we have that becuase there has been no alternative development of creation of value in economic terms - land remains a crucial asset. Only when liquid assets become more desirable, does fixed assets like land decrease in importance.

These require some new financial paradigms, and ideas exist, but this is not the thread perhaps to discuss them. Regarding Kashmir, valley, I will only say that it is important to explore the semi-feudal land relations that exists in the valley. I happen to know, that the complicated feudal/semi-feudal land relations structure in the valley has continued under protection of Article 370. A lot of the merry dance that we see now originally started as an attempt to protect large-landowner-agrarian-business nexus, and used Islam and so-called Kashmiri nationalism as well as Pakistani indigestion to preserve their own status. The so-called protective legislations need to be discussed and explored threadbare to see, exactly whose real interests they serve. It is because the political establishment at the federal centre of the core, (1) does not want to risk investing in areas they see as alien/risky - there are much better opportunities near "home" that benefits "deshoali bhais" (2) icompromises on the traditional family-to-family mode of doing politics - and comes to a mutual protection of interest agreement with local diminant elite in the periphery (3) basically allows the ruling elite in the periphery to protect their land-based interests sometimes, yes, against even their "own people".

I am sure those who have experienced life first hand in NE, have come across what I am pointing to. I spent brief but regular periods as parts of intensive "explorations" for adventure sports, as well as academic studies, when I deliberately and was also forced to, stay in close contact with remote villages. I am speaking from first hand experience. My idea of the Valley on the other hand comes from personal interviews during my "adventure" trips to the "North". There is a "class dynamics" there that is not being exploited - and it was quite clear to me why article 370 will not be repealed by the current federal ruling elite.

[Rahul M]

P.S: The idea or even the consideration of somehow homogenizing India is "loony". Will never happen and I don't see what could be the benefit that comes out of it. We are inherently heterogeneous so much so that being heterogeneous is part of our collective identity.

of course I agree wholeheartedly with your admirable sentiments but what baffles me is why now and why here ?
may be we should avoid strawman arguments ?

[Dhiman]

akl, situations in all the NE states are different from the others and a generalisation is bound for pitfalls. meghalaya is of course quite a bit different from the other states in NE and my comments in the 2nd post on NE do not apply in general.

that said, I would like to know what you think GoI has done for development of meghalaya, since you are contesting the "step-motherly" phrase.

I haven't been there in ages now as my smuggling operations have moved elsewhere, but Shillong's perceived traditional strength in the north-east is in the area of education and tourism. Traditionally, it has indeed been an educational hub with people from all over north-east come to study their. Also, from what I can gather, it has also started to attract quite a bit of tourism in recent years. The local population there seems to be comfortable with educational and tourism development there as they feel it does not impinge or threaten their unique culture/identity.

North-Eastern Hill University was established there a couple of decades back. Recently an IIM was also setup there and CDAC has setup a super-computing center. Currently 3000 delegates are attending the Indian Science Congress which is going on right now in Shillong. It may very well emerge as a major eduational/tourist center.

Culturally, the problem with NE is that while many of the people there see themselves as Indians, the rest of the India tends to see them as "different". There are fairly well-educated people in Shillong upto the extent that we should not be telling them "what should be done there", but rather asking "how can we help"

brahaspati: land is a distant secondary concern and this concern is often expressed only in the context of culture/identity concerns - the primary concerns.

[Rahul M]

Culturally, the problem with NE is that while many of the people there see themselves as Indians, the rest of the India tends to see them as "different". There are fairly well-educated people in Shillong upto the extent that we should not be telling them "what should be done there", but rather asking "how can we help"

not only shillong, all of NE is fairly well-educated, % of grads and above is higher than most places in RoI I believe.
but the fact remains that only the GoI can jump start development because of the resources required especially that of infrastructure.
that doesn't mean imposing development from above, which never works anywhere.

btw, who are the 'we' in your remarks ? please avoid the very pitfall you were describing :

the rest of the India tends to see them as "different"

You and I don't make policies, the babus at north block does.
and as far as policies are concerned myself and a resident of shillong both constitute 'we' with the babus at delhi and the state secretariat being 'them'.
only the fact of limited resources of a meghalaya goverment compounds the problem to something the RoI doesn't face.

[brihaspati]

Homogenization need not be taken to absurd limits, and no one is claiming to do so. Homogenization with respect to a core set of modern human values not much distant from that of the majority of the populations of India, with respect to attitudes towards issues of crucial importance to the nationa as a whole, uniform socio-economic fairness etc., are all that we are looking for. These are very much achievable. Strict endogamy under various pretexts/cultural/economic/religious helps maintain community divides. A lot of the so-called cultural fears are actually driven by fears of economic or sexual dispossession - not only in the periphery but also in the "core". Your point is noted, and I think we can come to a compromise about looking at both cultural and economic factors together in a comprehensive whole.

My personal experience is that the general peripheral non-elite populations are not that militantly concerned about their culture (except the most obvious in "direct insult" to a "custom") unless the peripheral elite turns it into that direction.

[brihaspati]

Samuelji,
I think there is only one edge now connecting K to the rest of the network. This single edge is controlled by a militant-separatism/Congress monopoly over K elite connections dynamic. No other information can pass over this single edge under the current setup. You have to model this as a bottleneck with limited capacity.

[brihaspati]

Just to jog people a bit - a question I have raised before, but now becomes more pertinent. With PVK getting increasingly squeezed in SL (the airstrip, and land bridge recovered by the SLA), the possibility becomes real that PVK and his core shifts to the TN, or other areas of the South. Tactical needs will keep him close to Jaffna - this may mean the TN or other belts in the south where the Tamil sympathies may allow him to continue to operate, or he may move to the Maldives (not entirely impossible given the Pakistani educated Maldivean Islamic fundamentalists recent upsurge). PVK could get help from TSP now or in fact TSP could use him to create an "outrage" somewhere in the South in return for "help" to continue his "struggle".

What are the future strategic scenarios given either PVK gets neutralized or survives in India or the Maldives? The main concern will be the possible links to Naxalites, NE extremists of the ULFA variety, and TSP itself. Also the effects on Tamil political mobilization have important consequences for the core.

[samuel]

My algorithm will require that:

1. We ensure that those who wish to exit SL can. Except those we need to prosecute,
safe passage and harbor are offered in secret. Those we must prosecute are offered
safe passage to India and guaranteed no capital punishment.
2. We can ensure SL's victory thence.
3. We ensure there is a sufficient movement left in SL to continue a struggle nonviolently
and we are involved in arbitrating that process, especially using people from TN.
4. Prabakaran and those directly responsible are "caught" a few years down the road in India,
and prosecuted for their crimes against India. But they are never left to be had by the Lankans.
5. We actively manage this relationship from now on.

S

[RayC]

Regarding J&K, and NE, is it possible to think of applying "dependent development"? Somewhere else I broached the idea (probably reinventing the wheel) that J&K's main economic product - Kashmir valley's agricultural products, could be sent to agro-based industries - for producing value added fruit products say, in Jammu. Jammu would be easier to develop for industrial infrastructure. Similarly Ladakhis could be encouraged (and financially helped) to take to animal husbandry at least for the state markets or if possible for larger markets. Modern business methods could turn traditional products into attractively packaged and promoted commodities for the greater Indian markets.

I know it sounds cynical and mischievous : But if we can justify policies that deliberately promote mutual economic dependence and necessary partneships in prosperity, it can go a long way in absorption into the core. I am not simply asking for investments or aids - I am also asking for economic policies that promote both growth and dependence. The same could also go for NE.

What has been mentioned here about "neglect of NE" is definitely true. No attempt has ever been seriously made to incorporate the NE in mutual dependence with industries or markets in the rest of India.

In Kashmir, there is govt projects for mushroom, sericulture, hops and vegetables of western origin (that would sell for a Prince's ransom in Delhi), apart from the traditional apples, apricots etc. I will be frank - Kashmiris are a lazy lot and it is recorded in Lawrence's "Vale of Kashmir" and is not my opinion alone! They believe in the dictum - Thele pe karun sheen (then there will be black snow!).

In Ladakh, there are sheep breeding farms and the DRDO has set up farms and have given the know how to the locals for vegetables. What is grown in Ladhak is scary! A cauliflower would be as big as two footballs!

Kashmir is a fantastic. The political will is merely required!

[brihaspati]

RayCji,
just a question: do you mean that the lack of political will is not allowing such industrial connections to develop (for value added products within the greater Indian market and even for export)? My experience was that there did not seem to be a lot of processing facilities mid 80's and late 90's. And these products, even in the fresh form did not find their way much into even the greater north Indian markets, except some dried products. For the "export" market the Kashmiris seemed to concentrate on woolen products, and a lot of my Kashmiri friends used to work quite hard as salesmen of such products in distant cities of India. There was also little or no infrastructure to use the agricultural products in Jammu for processing - I mean Jammu did not have any benefits from the agricultural production except tertiary service sectors supporting trade-transport.

Maybe OT, but just as a curiosity for others : one of my Kashmiri Muslim friends complained to me in private, that some of his other "plains" majority community guests had requested beef, of him. JH (initials) was literally outraged - and said that his reply was that he was "prepared to cut his hand off for meat" and as much "chicken" they wanted - but not "beef", for cows were very important and precious, and many families did not take beef at all. I have no reason to distrust his sincerity.

[brihaspati]

Samuelji,
I like your algorithm. I am slightly concerned abour PVK himself - he does appear to be a vicious loose cannon. Can he or will he be actually amenable to such an agreement? Moreover what if he chooses to set sup shop in some remote corner of the Maldives? Or worse follows the example of D-company and sets up shop somewhere in Karachi?