Indian Military Aviation

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 Feb 2009 16:39

sum wrote:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Dl2LL-s7kPU/SZgGj ... G_0124.JPG
Link not working!!!

It seems to be working for me!!
Anyways try this link, once the image has loaded click on the Magnify Glass icon near the top right of the image to see the full res image.

http://picasaweb.google.com/amitrai2000 ... 2243250434

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Feb 2009 16:45

Thanks...working now.

But, the markings on the Jag seem to be different than the sticker on the MKI. That seemed a "proper" radiation symbol which this doesn't seem to be.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 16 Feb 2009 18:27

Some notes on HAL:

1. Nothing to say about the ALH -- it has already become a wonderful machine.. WSI did some very good stuff in its display.. Lot of orders recived (~ 270). The glass cockpit Dhruv is wonderful.. Once it does well in Ecuador and HAL gets good rep by maintaining good after-sales service -- more export orders will come..

2. LCH weight is not seen as a problem by HAL designers -- it is a normal process in design.. weight optimisation will be done and reduction will be achieved.

3. HAL already got clearence for LUH.. about 187numbers..

4. HAL is developing a design for 10tonne class helo called Indian Multi Role Helicoper (IMRH). They have not yet made proposal to GoI. but when they make proposal - they expect clearence bcoz services need it..

Snippets from conversation with a HeloPilot:

The guy was a graduate of test pilots school.. a Army Helicopter pilot.. currently flying Dhruvs.. Has flown Mi35's..

- Dhruv is absolutely wonderfull.. glass cockpit is just very cool.. No other helicopter can do what Dhruv is doing at high-altitude.. Not many forces in the world operate at such altitudes - otherwise, it would have been in huge demand..

- Upgraded Mi35 is just lethal.. Night vision etc works very well.. Though the night vision helmets can be used for day ops also - they are available in smaller number, so they are just stored away and used only during night flying sorties.. the goggles and the associated stuff makes the helmet 750grams heavier..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Feb 2009 19:10

IAF, Southern Command, to hold mammoth exercise this week

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Feb 2009 19:44

Was any clue given as to which aircraft will replace the An-32s given that the MRTA is a dud, during the AI show?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Feb 2009 20:51

IAF to hold mammoth air exercise this week

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 16 Feb 2009 22:08

Ukraine won tender on modernization of An-32 aircrafts of India's Air Force

The Industrial Policy Ministry informs as Minister Volodymyr Novytskyi participated in AERO INDIA 2009.

"At the meeting with India's Defense Minister it was noted that in the context of a recent victory of the Ukrainian party in a tender on modernization of the fleet of 105 An-23 planes of the Indian Air Force, the relevant bilateral military-technical cooperation has prospects of achieving a qualitatively new level. The work on the contract is being completed now," the Ministry reported. The An-32 light multi-purpose airlifter was designed in Antonov ASTC (Kyiv). The airplane can be used in various climatic conditions. The airlifter is capable of carrying cargo for small and middle range.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 16 Feb 2009 22:51

Well I hope that the above mentioned upgradation of the An-32s includes uprated engines if and when it happens. IIRC those engines would enable a 50% increase in payload carried.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2009 22:55

merlin saab, which engines ? do you have a particular model in mind ?
I'm not sure the knocked about fuselage can handle that amount of power, the An-32 is already one overpowered beast with double the power of the an-26 it shares everything else with. and the a/c has horrendous noise levels and vibrations as a result.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 16 Feb 2009 23:03

Rahul M wrote:merlin saab, which engines ? do you have a particular model in mind ?
I'm not sure the knocked about fuselage can handle that amount of power, the An-32 is already one overpowered beast with double the power of the an-26 it shares everything else with. and the a/c has horrendous noise levels and vibrations as a result.

is it true that IAF is not happy with maintainence issues of An-32 and had to even cannibalize few for spares?
BTW why is Ukraine getting the contract, what about Antonov and russian factories?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2009 23:23

ajay, I have not heard about IAF unhappiness with it but will definitely try to find out now that you mention it.

was this recently or back in the 90's ? ukraine, I really have no idea but I guess it's only for navigation and cockpit instruments.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Feb 2009 23:30

Antonov is based out of Ukraine

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2009 23:38

^^^
how did I miss that ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Feb 2009 00:45

wouldn't be nice to have the mil transport planes to be coated with RAM paints.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 17 Feb 2009 00:48

SaiK wrote:wouldn't be nice to have the mil transport planes to be coated with RAM paints.

Has this been done anywhere? Any ideas on how much would we be able to reduce the RCS by?

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 17 Feb 2009 06:27

Sai K - nice, but futile. To reduce the detection range by 1/2, you have to reduce the RCS to 1/16th. No amount of RAM is going to help it. Add to that two massive spinning sources of radar reflection in the props, and your efforts are doomed. This is where ducted S-shaped inlets in stealth aircraft come into play.

Much cheaper armouring them against small-arms fire, fitting defensive countermeasures like jamming and decoys (I would love to see towed decoys on them) and of course, escorting them in and out of hostile airspace.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 17 Feb 2009 11:18

DARE – SPJ

DARE is going great guns of EW systems & avionics.

- Mig27 upgrade details we all know. Mig27’s after upgrade have an external SPJ – Tusker pod (generally not shown on the Mig27 upgrade brochure, for obvious reasons)
- Upgraded Jags have an Israeli external SPJ – integrated by DARE
- Su30 has an external SPJ Russian (there is so much electronics already inside Su30 – it is better to have external SPJ)

But DARE is moving onto to a new integrated system in which they are bringing the RWR and SPJ together. The system is called RWJ – Radar Warner Jammer (Codename not revealed)

They are developing RWJ for Mig27, Mig29 & LCA.
So ultimately LCA will have an internal jammer in the form of RWJ – at least in Mk2 versions.
(I think he said PV1 was designated as the platform. Or was it GTRE person who said PV1 will be the platform for Kaveri – memory is slightly clouded)

They have moved on from 386 processors to 486 processors for all new systems

The new RWR systems called R-118 will be retrofitted on all fighter aircraft except Su30MKI slowly.. May be on newer Su30MKI but probably they will leave Tarang Mk2 on older Su30MKI.

Tarang mk1 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -55dBM signal
Tarang mk2 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -65dBM signal
R-118 system – RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS

MSWS – Multi Sensor Warning System includes MAWS + LWS
The R-118 system combines RWR+MAWS+LWS. Tested extensively on Hack. Will be retrofitted onto most fighter aircraft starting with Mig27.

Summary:
- RWR system has matured far beyond Tarang
- DARE developed SPJ was tested against all fighter a/c in IAF inventory and worked well. We are doing very well on RWR & SPJ systems.
- New generation RWJ (internal jammer) is ready to be deployed on Mig27’s. Will also be developed for Mig29 & LCA.

Rajat · Post by **Rajat** » 17 Feb 2009 11:44

could someone please point me to any discussion on the f-35? i'd like to know what the pundits feel about it, since i profess to being impressed with it. well...with its description, anyway...

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Feb 2009 12:14

Rahul M wrote:merlin saab, which engines ? do you have a particular model in mind ?
I'm not sure the knocked about fuselage can handle that amount of power, the An-32 is already one overpowered beast with double the power of the an-26 it shares everything else with. and the a/c has horrendous noise levels and vibrations as a result.

Not sure of which exact engine but wasn't there a proposal to upgrade with some Rolls Royce engine? I remember reading some article in some magazine, don't recollect which one now that said that payload would increase from around 4t to 6.5t or so.

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 17 Feb 2009 16:37

rakall wrote:TIDBIT

Looks like Upgraded Jags have 2052

Rakall ji looks like Prasun Sen Gupta is seconding your view on the radar bit.

http://**************/2009/0 ... r-iaf.html

In the above he mentions:

The above-posted brochure is self-explanatory, except for the fact that this re-engining is only one component of the upgrade package for the Jaguar IS/IM, which is being proposed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), and which will include the third-generation DARIN-3 navigation-system system and an integrated defensive aids suite, both of which have been designed and integrated by the DRDO's Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), using several avionics LRUs originally developed for the Tejas LCA. The cockpit, shown at the Aero India 2009 expo, will now feature the same HUD as that on the Tejas LCA, along with three large MFD-55 AMLCDs supplied by THALES-Samtel Display Systems, and HOTAS controls, all utilising a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus. It remains to be seen if these upgraded Jaguars (about 120 in all will be upgraded and will be in service till 2022) will also be equipped with the fly-by-wire flight control system, which was tested out by BAE Systems way back in the mid-1980s on the Jaguar. By the way, these upgraded Jaguars are also due to be fitted with multi-mode monopulse radars for which the EL/M-2052, Captor-E and Seaspray 5000e are being proposed

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 17 Feb 2009 17:14

Anantz wrote:
rakall wrote:TIDBIT

Looks like Upgraded Jags have 2052
Rakall ji looks like Prasun Sen Gupta is seconding your view on the radar bit.

http://**************/2009/0 ... r-iaf.html

In the above he mentions:
The above-posted brochure is self-explanatory, except for the fact that this re-engining is only one component of the upgrade package for the Jaguar IS/IM, which is being proposed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), and which will include the third-generation DARIN-3 navigation-system system and an integrated defensive aids suite, both of which have been designed and integrated by the DRDO's Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), using several avionics LRUs originally developed for the Tejas LCA. The cockpit, shown at the Aero India 2009 expo, will now feature the same HUD as that on the Tejas LCA, along with three large MFD-55 AMLCDs supplied by THALES-Samtel Display Systems, and HOTAS controls, all utilising a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus. It remains to be seen if these upgraded Jaguars (about 120 in all will be upgraded and will be in service till 2022) will also be equipped with the fly-by-wire flight control system, which was tested out by BAE Systems way back in the mid-1980s on the Jaguar. By the way, these upgraded Jaguars are also due to be fitted with multi-mode monopulse radars for which the EL/M-2052, Captor-E and Seaspray 5000e are being proposed

I was reading some of his posts now and he seems to have got the complete opposite on LCA radar.. He says LCA radar will have 2052 antenna with rest of our stuff.. It just turns out we have it otherway round -- MMR antenna with other Israeli stuff..

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 17 Feb 2009 17:31

What I was pointing out was for the Jaguar radars. What do you think would be the actual reason for the IAF wanting such an advanced radar on the Jaguar? It can't be for AA capabilities. It must be more in tune with very high resolution mapping (SAR), surface moving target detection and tracking and A/G ranging. But then why didnt they decide on that earlier. They had just added a host of new sensors for the DARIN II upgrade and now a whole new set with the RADAR immediately after. Moreover if MMRCA is to do the same, then why add it to the Jaguar fleet too...
JMT

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Feb 2009 18:26

rakall wrote:
I was reading some of his posts now and he seems to have got the complete opposite on LCA radar.. He says LCA radar will have 2052 antenna with rest of our stuff.. It just turns out we have it otherway round -- MMR antenna with other Israeli stuff..

Prasun Sengupta is a twirp.

Vayu confirms what you said and what I heard in my conversation with Cmdr Balaji

The all important Multimode Radar (MMR) is being integrated in LSP-3, this being a joint development combining the antenna and radome from LRDE, scanner from ECIL with Elta's 2032 power amplifier unit

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 19:22

Courtesy Vayu Jan 01 - 2009

MiG 27 UPG

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 17 Feb 2009 19:28

There are no visible sensors in the Hawk nose. IIRC it was to be equipped with the same suite that is housed in Jaguar IS?

What are the strike capabilities of the Hawk and how would it compare to Hawker Hunter in Kargil-like scenario?

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Feb 2009 19:33

The all important Multimode Radar (MMR) is being integrated in LSP-3, this being a joint development combining the antenna and radome from LRDE, scanner from ECIL with Elta's 2032 power amplifier unit

Didn't Rakall mention it the other way around?

ECIL/LRDE supplied antenna and indigenous Power Amplifier unit with rest of radar and its modes etc being 2032....

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 17 Feb 2009 19:36

Anantz wrote:What I was pointing out was for the Jaguar radars. What do you think would be the actual reason for the IAF wanting such an advanced radar on the Jaguar?It can't be for AA capabilities. It must be more in tune with very high resolution mapping (SAR), surface moving target detection and tracking and A/G ranging. But then why didnt they decide on that earlier. They had just added a host of new sensors for the DARIN II upgrade and now a whole new set with the RADAR immediately after. Moreover if MMRCA is to do the same, then why add it to the Jaguar fleet too...
JMT

I find it odd that Jaguars will get 2052s while upgraded mirages and Mig-29s will have mech scanned arrays.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Feb 2009 19:38

ajay_ijn wrote: I find it odd that Jaguars will get 2052s while upgraded mirages and Mig-29s will have mech scanned arrays.

Must have to do with French and Russian conditions....

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 17 Feb 2009 19:50

sum wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote: I find it odd that Jaguars will get 2052s while upgraded mirages and Mig-29s will have mech scanned arrays.
Must have to do with French and Russian conditions....

if british can allow foreign radars on their birds then why not french. also if HAL can integrate 2032 with Harrier,Jaguar then doing it with mirage or 29 with an AESA Radar also should not be a problem.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 17 Feb 2009 19:53

sum wrote:
The all important Multimode Radar (MMR) is being integrated in LSP-3, this being a joint development combining the antenna and radome from LRDE, scanner from ECIL with Elta's 2032 power amplifier unit
Didn't Rakall mention it the other way around?

ECIL/LRDE supplied antenna and indigenous Power Amplifier unit with rest of radar and its modes etc being 2032....

It is HAL/LRDE antenna + ECIL/BARC developed APL + indigenous power amplifier (dont know which agency) + Radome from NAL -- all this indigenous stuff with all the signal & data processing from Elta (most probably the full back office of 2032)

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 18 Feb 2009 09:52

rakall wrote:DARE – SPJ

DARE is going great guns of EW systems & avionics.
-
They have moved on from 386 processors to 486 processors for all new systems

The new RWR systems called R-118 will be retrofitted on all fighter aircraft except Su30MKI slowly.. May be on newer Su30MKI but probably they will leave Tarang Mk2 on older Su30MKI.

Tarang mk1 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -55dBM signal
Tarang mk2 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -65dBM signal
R-118 system – RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS

MSWS – Multi Sensor Warning System includes MAWS + LWS
The R-118 system combines RWR+MAWS+LWS. Tested extensively on Hack. Will be retrofitted onto most fighter aircraft starting with Mig27.

A) The -65 dBm is good spec, but key question is what modulations can it detect/resolve? {this is key to differential non-threat RF broadcasts}
B ) and how small are the frequency bands that have an individual -65dBm detector channel?
C) How good it is against AESA that is using pulse compression?

Any insight?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 18 Feb 2009 20:01

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/IAF_ ... latestnews

IAF fighter squadrons to rise to 42 by 2022: Antony
18 Feb 2009, 1911 hrs IST, PTI

NEW DELHI: Defence minister A K Antony on Wednesday said that by the end of the 13th Plan period, Indian Air Force's
combat fleet would be of 42 squadrons, which is more than the strength sanctioned by the government.

"During the period 2007-2022, the strength at the end of 11th, 12th and 13th Plan periods is expected to increase to 35.5, 35 and 42

squadrons respectively," Antony said in a written reply to a query in Rajya Sabha.

Government has sanctioned the IAF to have a total of 39.5 squadrons of fighter aircraft.

He said that the Air Force will reach the peak of strength with the induction of Su-30 MKIs, Jaguars, Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA), Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Antony said at the beginning of the 11th Plan period, the force had only 32 squadrons.

Defence minister added that the IAF was in the process of carrying out upgrades in its existing fleet of Mirage 2000, MiG 21, MiG 27, MiG 29 and Jaguar fighter aircraft and adding force multipliers such as the Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) and mid-air refueling aircraft.

Antony said that induction of new aircraft and replacement of existing aircraft as well as enhancing operational capabilities to meet the prevailing threat scenario were an ongoing process in the force.

Replying to another question, he said the LCA would be inducted in the IAF by 2010-11.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 18 Feb 2009 20:36

Courtesy Vayu 01 - 2009

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 18 Feb 2009 20:37

Courtesy Vayu 01 - 2009

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 19 Feb 2009 22:29

A bit late, but going through my collection of Vayu, I came across this article.

Lot of nice tidbits on the stunts pulled by brits to sniff on the BARS radar.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 19 Feb 2009 22:31

IAF in NWFP

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 19 Feb 2009 22:37

Courtesy Vayu

List of all aircrafts from inception of IAF till present.

Pragadeesh · Post by **Pragadeesh** » 20 Feb 2009 02:19

Thank you very much NayakJi.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Feb 2009 03:02

Janes :: Jan 2, 2009 :: EL/M-2052 (Israel), Airborne fire-control radars

Noted as being applicable to the F-15, MiG-29, Mirage 2000, Su-30 and India's ADA Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft), the EL/M-2052 active phased-array fire-control radar is described as being designed for the establishment of 'air-to-air superiority' and the execution of 'advanced' strike missions.

SuKan · Post by **SuKan** » 20 Feb 2009 14:55

LCA has completed 1052 test flights.

http://www.ada.gov.in/Others/CurrentNew ... -lca_.html