Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

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Aditya_V
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Aditya_V »

Forget the judiciary, will our elite and media allow. Such a policy can always has a risk of few innocents getting killed. Are you prepared for that?
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by merlin »

shiv wrote: The Congress government is unable to make the bold political move required to hit Pakistan and cause pain and be ready to feel some pain in return.
I'm beginning to think that no government will ever be able to make this bold political move. The NDA folks seem to be as affected by the wet pant syndrome wrt khan as the UPA ones, only the degree matters. But I agree that the current dispensation is less likely to make these moves compared to the previous ones.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by AdityaM »

if the govt is intent on pursuing peace talks with TSP, then it can not allow such 'minor hiccups' to uspset its peacecart.
That can only be done by ensuring that the investigative trail doesnt lead back to TSP. this can be done in 2 ways:
1- Point to a native indian org like IM and keep it limited to them only
2- Point to right wing yindutva
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by vasu_ray »

Aditya_V wrote:Forget the judiciary, will our elite and media allow. Such a policy can always has a risk of few innocents getting killed. Are you prepared for that?
hope you know how ruthless was the state against the naxals, there was no elite nor media, not seeing the same against the Islamic terrorists for saving vote bank? I don't know, what I know is on the overall diabolical scale, these terrorists rank very high relatively

are you worried about innocents potentially in judicial custody who might get into the van or the passers by?, how about focusing only on the waiting for the gallows kind (does kasab count?)

just want the GoI talk whatever Hafeez Sayeed and the likes talk and understand
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Chandragupta »

No Government in India would be willing to go for a full blown war with Pakistan, because none of them would want to go down in history as the party under whose rule India was nuked, something that has a high probability of happening if the war is taken to its logical end, meaning that Pakistan as an entity is wiped off the face of the planet. One option short of that is a limited war, which some claim does not achieve any thing that will justify it, however, I believe that it can achieve the following objectives -

a. Considerable destruction of Pakistan's war fighting ability
b. Huge loss of H&D
c. Huge dent in average Pakistani's belief in their Jihadi Fauj

But a war will also involve an economic & human cost that this government (and the people) is not willing to pay anytime in the near future. Another issue that needs to be looked into is the use of TNWs on Indian forces in a limited war by Pakistan to prevent the loss of H&D, will the government retaliate with a nuclear whitewash of Pakistan or will it be found wanting in the balls department & cower in their dhotis? That would mean a total loss of credibility & a spectacular success of Pakistan's nuclear blackmail strategy. How many would bet that India would retaliate with nuclear weapons once Pakistan uses nukes on Indian forces as a warning and starts sabre rattling against India, repeating their now well ingrained line of "Hum to doobenge, tumhe bhi le doobenge"?! How many Indians will back the government to retaliate & how many would beat their chests in front of PMO like they did in 99?!

Wouldn't that leave only one option, to absorb their blows & wait for them to implode, at the same time fortifying internal security & quashing any misadventures at home. However, something tells me that this government would not only shy away from helping them to implode but in their pursuit of pathetic vote bank politics will even shield the perpetrators. With the economic strength that we have, how tough it is to fund & support separatist movements in Pakistan? Not above our capability surely, but that would require the GoI to stand up to the US which I don't think this PM is capable of.

Jmtc
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: The Congress government is unable to make the bold political move required to hit Pakistan and cause pain and be ready to feel some pain in return.
Is it because the Indian elites basically want to stay alive and to party. If they hit the Pakis then there is danger of the Indian elites getting hurt.

So the unwritten understanding is that the Pakis confine their attention to the commons, and the Indian elites are permitted to stay alive and party.
Rahul in party mood soon after Mumbai crisis
Mail Today Bureau
New Delhi, December 1, 2008

Even before the tears of Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan’s mother could dry up, Congress general secretary and heir apparent Rahul Gandhi went partying with his pals at a farmhouse on Delhi’s outskirts.

The Prince partied hard, till 5 in the morning, on Sunday at the ‘sangeet’ for the forthcoming wedding of Samir Sharma, his childhood friend. They were at a sprawling farmhouse at Radhey Mohan Chowk, the haven of people who lead charmed lives beyond Chhatarpur.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... risis.html
Be that as it may, I am not necessarily an advocate of overt and conventional retaliation.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by derkonig »

Even socialist racist Oz gets it right on how to deal with terrorism..but our sekoolaars will still pussyfoot around Muslim terror.
Muslim terrorists get jail terms in Oz
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: To Indians human lives are expendable.
I would suggest that to deracinated and westernized Indian elites, lives of commons are expendable.

After all, corrupt Nehruvian economics has killed more people of malnutrition and lack of medical care than Hitler killed in WW2.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Virupaksha »

Pranav wrote:
I would suggest that to deracinated and westernized Indian elites, lives of commons are expendable.

After all, corrupt Nehruvian economics has killed more people of malnutrition and lack of medical care than Hitler killed in WW2.
excuse me!! Are you talking of India only or thinking of Mao and China??
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Karna_A »

Chandragupta wrote:
How many would bet that India would retaliate with nuclear weapons once Pakistan uses nukes on Indian forces as a warning and starts sabre rattling against India, repeating their now well ingrained line of "Hum to doobenge, tumhe bhi le doobenge"?! How many Indians will back the government to retaliate & how many would beat their chests in front of PMO like they did in 99?!
Jmtc
The only real threat that has a chance of success against TSP is destruction of KSA.
If Riyadh, Jeddah, Damman etc. are threatened together with TSP Slums, there would be no use of Nookes by TSP.
TSP slums alone are not sufficient as no one likes them and no one will miss them. Even TSP elite diplomats are known to take illegal refuge in decadent west, which is almost unique for any country.
Last edited by Karna_A on 15 Feb 2010 14:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

US had warned of attack in Pune, Mumbai

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 573845.cms
Top intelligence sources have confirmed that days before US defence secretary Robert Gates's visit to India last month, the US had warned New Delhi that al-Qaida-influenced elements were likely to carry out an attack in Pune and Mumbai. The US agencies, however, failed to give any real reason for the specific mention of the two cities, merely referring to the CD in which an al-Qaida leader, Abu Mustafa Yasid, had threatened terrorist strikes.

This CD was later released to the media but it did not mention the names of Pune or Mumbai. "In hindsight, it does appear that they must have had more authentic reasons for insisting that Pune or Mumbai was likely to be targeted. While we couldn't have forced them to disclose the exact source of information, authorities in Maharashtra were immediately alerted," said a top intelligence official, adding that this information was also the provocation for Gates telling defence minister A K Antony that al-Qaida was trying to provoke a war between India and Pakistan.

The fact that the incident took place despite the strong alert, the official said, had once again proved that India still lacked assessment capabilities and the mechanism to ensure adequate follow-up action.

Sources said the Pune blast has forced security agencies to have a closer look at the little known Islamic Students Congregation (ISC), an organization headquartered in Pune and comprising Arab students. The ISC is said to have branches in Hyderabad, Mumbai and Bangalore too.

...

The intelligence official said this organization first came on the Indian security radar in 2007 when a Sudanese member of al-Qaida visited Pune and stayed there for a month interacting with members of ISC.

...

While Pune's association with Abu Zubaidah, Osama bin Laden's No.3 man, is well known, the fact that Pune was likely to be targeted by al-Qaida became obvious in August 2006, when three al-Qaida operatives were arrested in Algeria. "These three men had then disclosed that the same year in March, all three of them had visited Pune on a reconnaissance mission. It then became clear that Pune was on al-Qaida's hit list," said the official.

...

Meanwhile, after the Pune blast, the US has again extended a travel alert for its citizens in India saying that it continues to receive information that terrorist groups may be planning attacks in the country.

...
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Pranav »

ravi_ku wrote:
Pranav wrote:
I would suggest that to deracinated and westernized Indian elites, lives of commons are expendable.

After all, corrupt Nehruvian economics has killed more people of malnutrition and lack of medical care than Hitler killed in WW2.
excuse me!! Are you talking of India only or thinking of Mao and China??
Very much talking about India. There was a study comparing Indian infant mortality, to what infant mortality could have been if our education, health, nutrition had been managed without corruption.

The difference is the number of people killed by government apathy / malignant corruption.

The head of government, by his personal dishonesty, sets an example for the whole government and country to follow. In independent India, the rot began with Nehru and Krishna Menon. As the ancient saying goes, Yatha Raja tatha Praja.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by skaranam »

vasu_ray wrote:+1
good idea Karna! since judicial process doesn't allow it, (NOT a fan of current judicial setup either), transport these scum in a nice vehicle and blow it up with exact same recovered RDX

kinda tired of our chanakian inaction or the inefficient five year plans to deal with development or terror
This kind of thing is not possible politically. I think the Babus should come out with some brilliant scheme to get this done. Can we search for some precedents in Indian polity? If i recall the RAW ops in Nepal to get rid of Paki elements is one.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Philip »

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by JwalaMukhi »

merlin wrote:
shiv wrote: The Congress government is unable to make the bold political move required to hit Pakistan and cause pain and be ready to feel some pain in return.
I'm beginning to think that no government will ever be able to make this bold political move. But I agree that the current dispensation is less likely to make these moves compared to the previous ones.
Perfectly correct. Congress has better data analysts than others. Data does not lie. One can slice about how it is incorrect to generalize yada yada, but the cookie crumbles and the conclusion that the data yields are far reaching. This data analysis capability and utilization of that is best accomplished by congress.
The voting pattern by the minority - data will reveal, that on the whole for a simple process as excercising one's vote does not involve any independent thought process but depends heavily on what the mullah dictates. In effect, the mullahs are defacto holders of how the mass of minority behaves. Who and what can keep mullahs happy will deliver. Mullahs receive funding from the most interested parties, this would also mean external funding, to further the agenda of mullahs. Any political party has to match or better the funding that mullahs receive, in order to gain favors. To match such a funding it is easy to rob peter to pay pal by politicos, because fundings are substantial. Apart from that mullahs are driven by ideological underpinnings. If those underpinnings are catered then it will also help in being good books with mullahs.
The NDA folks seem to be as affected by the wet pant syndrome wrt khan as the UPA ones, only the degree matters.
That is debatable. That is a charitable view that Amrikhan pressure is preventing GOIs of any dispensation to act decisively. Partly true. But not complete. The domestic political vote bank far outweighs any amrikhan pressure. As can be seen by the voting data pattern, some dispensations are more prone to exploit what data reveals than others. Hence some dispensation would be more hamstrung in taking decisive action than other dispensations.
Abhi_G wrote:Does this make sense?
3. amirkhan's pressure leads GoI to soften stance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: In absence of amirkhan in af-pak, it is a field day for pak army. The strategic depth is re-achieved. The faithful has defeated two superpowers in 30 years. And therefore, a resurgence of jihad in India. It seems amirkhan existing (current) or non-existing (pre 911) does not deter pak army's aim of jihadi operations against India.
Amrikhan pressure is less important than local vote bank politics. The support base in India, depends entirely on how mullahs react. The average masses do not and consistently do not excerise independent thoughts far beyond what mullahs say. Exceptions occur, but that is insignificant to make any difference. If not, the voting pattern data would reveal different conclusions. If mullahs find takleef then there will be takleef, whether it is genuine or otherwise.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by kulhari »

Philip wrote:
They under no circumstances want the neighbourhood "nuked",for theywill be also nuked in turn.
absolutely correct.
...However,the Yanquis seem to have some sort of prevention plan for that dangerous eventuality....
Alas we are seemingly happy to put our lives in the hand of yankee plan. What is it fails? US plans have not been fail proof in the past.
What the Pakis really fear is limited military strikes by India that are too small to justify an all-out war and which could set their economy into a fatal downwards spiral which will beggar the country leading to huge social unrest.Most of their talk about using their N-wepons is mere bluff and bluster.
This I wish GOI understands some day..
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by skaranam »

'Waiter at bakery saw Pune bomber'
Sources said Paras Rimal, identified as a waiter at the bakery where the bomb blast took place on Saturday evening, has given details of a suspect to the National Investigation Agency (NIA) and the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS).

He has reportedly told the investigators that at about 6.30 pm on Saturday he noticed a red and blue 'air bag' on a front-row seat at the crowded bakery. It kept nagging him that nobody was taking it away.

Soon, he alerted the manager of the eatery about the unattended bag. He was told that somebody must have forgotten it and asked to keep it aside.

But, as Rimal went to pick up the bag a person rushed towards him with two Rs 100 currency notes and asked him to fetch a bottle of packaged drinking water.

The waiter went to get the bottle of water, forgetting all about the bag. He has told investigators that the bomb went off soon after the man rushed out.

The Leader of Opposition in the state Assembly Eknath Khadse quoted investigators to say that Rimal was a key witness as he had seen the person who might have kept the bag with the explosives and then tried to distract the waiter. "Paras should be protected like the Gateway of India blasts witness Shivnarain Pandey," he said.

Pandey was given a new identity and rehabilitated at an unidentified location by the government. {Our version of Witness Protection}
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by sum »

Pandey was given a new identity and rehabilitated at an unidentified location by the government
Didnt know we did this.

Is this also new after Chidu took over?
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Gerard »

derkonig wrote:Even socialist racist Oz gets it right on how to deal with terrorism..but our sekoolaars will still pussyfoot around Muslim terror.
Muslim terrorists get jail terms in Oz
Err.. don't Muslim terrorists get jail terms in India? I seem to recall the SC affirming death sentences recently? Oz doesn't have the death penalty.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Philip »

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Hari Seldon »

sum wrote:
Pandey was given a new identity and rehabilitated at an unidentified location by the government
Didnt know we did this.

Is this also new after Chidu took over?
Heartening if true to know that a US style witness protection program is available at the least.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by CRamS »

TSP is no joke as far as India is concerned. Consider TSP's approach to securing its interests Vs India's. I wrote on these very pages soon after 9/11 when Mush GUBOed to Amritiraj that India should put its foot down and demand that terror must be all encompassing. Had India made enough noises then itelf that India will not accept USA and TSP differentiating between good & bad terrorists, and India will not be a safety valvel for TSP to quench its blood thirst as US forces it take on Taliban & Al Queda dregs. And by India going along with US fraud in return for this toothless nuke deal, TSP has been able to preserve its India specfic terrorist assets. I mean even the narrative on the war on terror does not include India as a victim; its India TSP equal equal, and this, even as it unleashes attacks with impuntiy. Hats of to TSP for pulling it off. Also contrast India's pussilanimity with TSP's aggressiveness in Afganisthan right from the beginning. They went into a neurotic tizzy right from the start and today, India's good work doesn't count for much in contrast to TSP's ability to create mayhem through Taliban, and is able to keep its interests intact.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by jjambunathan »

Elements of 313 Brigade might have a role in the bombing

http://atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LB13Df03.html

"Asia Times Online has received a message from top guerrilla commander Ilyas Kashmiri, whose 313 Brigade is an operational arm of al-Qaeda. The message arrived on Monday morning, shortly after the deadly weekend bombing of the German Bakery in the western Indian city of Pune. The message does not specifically claim responsibility for the bombing, but implies the Brigade's involvement."
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by ramana »

Have they figured out the design or is it still speculation?

To me the interesting facts are:

- Location: A German bakery in front of the OSHO site. Site figures on Headley's scouting trip. Pointer to non-state actors from TSP. Same genre as Mumbai Attack of 26/11/08
- Reports of RDX. Point to TSP as its a military explosive.
- Local suspects. Could be a false flag operation for locals dont have access to RDX. Provides plausible denialbility.
- Only one blast with report of another defused. Could be a signal as a warm up and could have done more.
- GOI again ignoring high placed warnings from US due to untenable reasons. Headley is in US custody. Headley scouted areas in India. At minimum should have those places on alert after warning.

All point to a warning blast below the threshold of triggering response from GOI. And same time show up the incompetence/helplessness in India despite the talks.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:
- Location: A German bakery in front of the OSHO site. Site figures on Headley's scouting trip. Pointer to non-state actors from TSP. Same genre as Mumbai Attack of 26/11/08
Just had a call with Pune now. The location is near the Blue Diamond Hotel which is landmark.
It is 200 mts from the Hotel.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by ramana »

I think GOI should make formal request to US to interrogate Headley. Its clear he had a secondary connection to this blast.

Its important to show the people that US is doing its bit to support the UPA govt in its difficult times. Denying access to Headley after the Pune bomb attack could mean there is something being held back.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by preeshcode »

Investment in Homeland security technologies becomes paramount. Indo-Israeli cooperation in mass producing HS technologies for a number of cities and integration of police databases becomes urgent now.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by ramana »

preeshcode wrote:Investment in Homeland security technologies becomes paramount. Indo-Israeli cooperation in mass producing HS technologies for a number of cities and integration of police databases becomes urgent now.
Before commiting to the investment in those unobtanium technolgoies its imperative that GOI gets access to Headley ASAP.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by preeshcode »

In the article, it says that someone opened an unattended package. Does this point to a casual attitude which has not translated into: "see something, say something"? Perhaps, a lot more public education is required about exercising caution in crowded places, social gatherings, keeping an eye out for rogue elements and unusual movements etc. How much of this could have been avoided if the people had security in place and/or were alert? I remember the Pentagon hired an Israeli ex-army operative to formulate public awareness schemes post 911 and he suggested something along similar lines. An aggressive public could prevent a lot of these incidents. Not sure if it will work in India due to the sheer density of population there.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by shyamd »

Sad to say more such events will occur if India doesnt start to increase its HUMINT levels. CIA faced similar position in the late 80's. They were getting tricked left right and centre. Just because IB/RAW intercepted conversations talking about Pune, it could easily be a bluff.

Added later: We can keep blaming PC, Intel failure, but ultimately the problem is lack of aggressive policy towards terror and a lack of HUMINT. Yindu's are cowering in their dhothi's at this point in time.

MHA has shown aggressive intent in J&K operations recently, Army clearly say the top leadership have told them to target the Terror leadership, hence the huge hits over the last month or so. Can we have same aggression against TSP?
Last edited by shyamd on 16 Feb 2010 00:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Karna_A »

vasu_ray wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Forget the judiciary, will our elite and media allow. Such a policy can always has a risk of few innocents getting killed. Are you prepared for that?
hope you know how ruthless was the state against the naxals, there was no elite nor media, not seeing the same against the Islamic terrorists for saving vote bank? I don't know, what I know is on the overall diabolical scale, these terrorists rank very high relatively

are you worried about innocents potentially in judicial custody who might get into the van or the passers by?, how about focusing only on the waiting for the gallows kind (does kasab count?)

just want the GoI talk whatever Hafeez Sayeed and the likes talk and understand
Well, a lot of the present situation is to do with multiple safari suit per blast Patil and other assorted politicians with Vote Bank to Swiss Bank politics.
http://arunshourie.wordpress.com/
But for any of this to happen, the society has to be clear in its mind. This is, it has for 20 years been, war. It can be won only by overwhelming the adversary — not by running after the terrorist, as K.P.S. Gill says, but by out-running him, indeed by over-running him. Not an eye for an eye. For an eye, both eyes. Not a tooth for a tooth. For a tooth, the whole jaw. Human rights? Yes, we will respect the human rights of the terrorists and their sponsors and their local supporters to the extent that they respect the human rights of our people.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by RamaY »

^^^

That strategy by KPS Gill ji is a proven approach, unlike the johollawallah's strategies on internal security. I still fail to understand why this strategy is not applied in JK and NE or even against Maoists. Is it because these are supported by foreign ideologies?
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by ramana »

There were some clever games being played by all the players (TSP, US and GOI) so lets not rush to conculsions. The surest thing is that GOI did not go beserk about the warning from US in either 26/11 or now.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Chinmayanand »

Ramana guru , if GoI was playing clever games , the ministers and bureaucrats should have put their own family in the line of fire. They have no right to play with the lives of innocent and powerless Indians.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by pgbhat »

DNAIndia wrote:Kerry arrived from Doha on Sunday, a day after theattack on German Bakery in Pune. He is batting for USinterests in the region, which is to ensure Pakistan’s military can concentrate on the fight against al Qaeda and the Taliban without worrying about India.
DNA India is not even mincing words. :lol:
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by shynee »

Al-Qaeda chief delivers a warning

By Syed Saleem Shahzad

ISLAMABAD - Asia Times Online has received a message from top guerrilla commander Ilyas Kashmiri, whose 313 Brigade is an operational arm of al-Qaeda. The message arrived on Monday morning, shortly after the deadly weekend bombing of the German Bakery in the western Indian city of Pune. The message does not specifically claim responsibility for the bombing, but implies the Brigade's involvement.
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Post by Rudradev »

merlin wrote:
shiv wrote: The Congress government is unable to make the bold political move required to hit Pakistan and cause pain and be ready to feel some pain in return.
I'm beginning to think that no government will ever be able to make this bold political move. The NDA folks seem to be as affected by the wet pant syndrome wrt khan as the UPA ones, only the degree matters. But I agree that the current dispensation is less likely to make these moves compared to the previous ones.
I respectfully disagree with your statement about NDA and UPA. NDA may not have shown as much spine to khan or TSP as we would have liked, but it was a damn sight better than UPA by any yardstick. NDA conducted the Pokhran tests of 1998, which the previous Congress (I) government of Narasimha Rao (which had MMS as finance minister) deferred. NDA fought and won the Kargil war.

NDA also mounted the exercise in brinkmanship known as Parakram, and while there are people who say the deaths of 500 soldiers in Parakram were not worth the results, I can't see how they arrive at that conclusion.

Consider the following table: http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... alties.htm

There is a dramatic increase in J&K terrorism-related fatalities from 1991 to 2001; then a clear decline from 2002 to the present.

In other words, average deaths in J&K terrorism for the 8 years 1994-2001 were 2,945 per year and rising; average deaths for the 8 years 2002-2009 were 1,490 per year and falling. I can't see any other reason for this change in the game, other than Parakram (which convinced Unkil that we would go to war and destroy Unkil's Afghanistan plans rather than be a quiescent "safety valve" to absorb Pakistani terrorism). Even things like border fencing and so on were made possible because of the cease-fire following the televised GUBOing of Musharraf, whose pants were browned by Parakram.

So when people say the deaths of 500 soldiers in Parakram was somehow not worth that result, I have only to ask them what (lower cost) alternative can they propose which would have been at least equally effective?

And for that matter, what has the UPA administration done that changes the game to even a fraction of the extent that Parakram did? They haven't even come close. All they have done is Sharm-el-Shaikh and dossier-rattling.

When people say that Parakram was a failure because India did not actually go to war, I have to ask them: how many more (than 500) soldiers would have died if Parakram had actually led to war, how many civilians would have died also, and most importantly: what would have been the increased benefits, as opposed to the increased costs? What game plan was there militarily had we crossed the LOC/IB? Grab Lahore? Seize POK? Would we have been able to consolidate those gains? What cost would those gains have come at, considering Unkil was helping the TSPA with satellite intel already, and would surely have helped them with more than that if it came to war?

Nobody seems to know the answer but we're quite happy to criticize the NDA and Parakram regardless.

We had few options in 2002 and while many aspects of Parakram were not pleasing to us, it undeniably achieved the effect of reducing Paki infiltration and terrorism in J&K.

By contrast, the UPA (despite our stronger economy today than 2002) has done nothing but pander, placate and jeopardize Indian interests while Indian citizens die in terrorist attacks.

So yes, it is a matter of "degrees" between NDA and UPA but so is everything else. Nobody has perfect solutions, and in an imperfect world degrees are all we have to distinguish the acceptable from the unacceptable.
Last edited by Rudradev on 16 Feb 2010 02:29, edited 1 time in total.
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