Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

[Prem]

US military begins to link Afghan Taliban to Pakistani terror groups
By Bill RoggioJuly 11, 2010

Within the past several days, the US military has begun to publicly identify the Lashkar-e-Taiba and other foreign fighters based in Pakistan, as well as a Pakistani Taliban group, as constituting direct threats to Coalition and Afghan forces in Afghanistan.In what may be a dramatic shift, the official press releases from the US-led International Security Assistance Force and other Department of Defense outlets published on US military websites are starting to mention specific links between insurgents in Afghanistan and their sponsors in Pakistan.
The shift began on July 3, when ISAF announced that it had captured a Taliban commander, a Taliban facilitator, and two fighters during a raid in the eastern province of Nangarhar. "The commander is directly linked to the Taliban emir of Khugyani district and assisted with the recent influx of Lashkar-e Taiba (LeT) insurgents into the province," ISAF stated in the press release.Four days later, ISAF reported the capture of another Taliban commander who is tied to Lashkar-e-Taiba operations in Khugyani district in Nangarhar province. "The commander had direct contact with a Taliban commander detained by the security force July 3," ISAF reported on July 7. "He was also directly linked to the overall Taliban emir of Khugyani District and associated with the recent influx of Lashkar-e Tayyiba operatives into the province," ISAF reported on July7

Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... z0tPsj3vov

[svinayak]

See how slowly they are connecting India, Kashmir, AfPak and Iran as one situation.
THis author talks about bad timing even in 1947 and misunderstanding between India and Pakistan.


http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/ ... of-timing/

One of the most telling comments in the latest round of violence in Kashmir came from separatist leader Mirwaiz Omar Farouk, when he said that the protests were not about Muslim Kashmir vs Hindu India. He would not have had to say that before – the Kashmir separatist revolt at the start was always more about nationhood than religion. That he now has to deny the communal undertones highlights how far these have grown.

The latest protests also come as India and Pakistan have begun a tentative attempt at peace-making after a long diplomatic limbo following the November 2008 attack on Mumbai. Their foreign ministers are due to meet on July 15 to take the process forward. Both have an interest in trying to reduce tensions, if nothing else but because the uncertainty over U.S. policy in Afghanistan threatens new instability in the region. Yet neither country will find it politically easy to accommodate each other if Kashmir is going up in flames.

The protests in Kashmir also coincide with some fresh soul-searching in Pakistan over the role of militant groups – some of whom were once nurtured to fight India in Kashmir – following last weeks suicide bombing of one of the country’s most popular Sufi shrines in Lahore. A perception of “Indian oppression” against fellow Muslims in Kashmir has always fed into popular support for militants fighting for its “liberation” – so in another tragedy of timing, the crackdown in Srinagar is likely to make it harder for those voices within Pakistan who want to win backing against Islamist militant groups.

Anyone who has ever studied the history of India and Pakistan – right back to pre-partition days – will know that their tortuous relationship has been based on misunderstandings and bad timing. And Kashmir has always been caught in the middle. Yet even the most optimistic cannot resist the impression that the regional environment is worsening.

As one person commented on my last post – albeit in a different context about the relationship between India, Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan – using language that perhaps expressed more than a journalist can in thousands of words:

“It is all one bloody mess … isn’t it. Every one is caught in every one else’s web..”

[Airavat]

Training FC to fight Taliban

Pakistan also restricts the number of American trainers throughout the country to no more than about 120 Special Operations personnel, fearful of being identified too closely with the unpopular United States — even though the Americans reimburse Pakistan more than $1 billion a year for its military operations in the border areas. “We want to keep a low signature,” said a senior Pakistani officer.

About a dozen American trainers are assigned to yearlong duty at this training center, a cluster of classrooms and dormitories and adjacent training ranges on a large campus, which the United States spent $23 million to build, plus another $30 million for training and equipment requested by the Pakistani military. Five two-man sniper teams, trained to use American-made M24 rifles as well as how to work with a spotter, measure wind speeds and camouflage their positions, received awards from Colonel Sonntag. But five two-man teams were dropped during the training because their math skills were not good enough, another American trainer said.

Pakistani soldiers doing what they do best...playing dead.

Many more photos which could be used in the "Bositive Neuj" thread here.

[SSridhar]

Call for China-India initiative for Pakistan's Stability

A senior member of the Chinese Foreign Ministry's Advisory Group has proposed that China and India cooperate for the stability of Pakistan in the present circumstances.

The Ministry's Foreign Policy Advisory Group Member, Wu Jianmin, told TheHindu here his intention was to “present this idea to the Chinese government in due course.” He said this on the sidelines of a conference on “the role of the media in India-China relations,” organised by the Singapore-based Institute of Southeast Asian Studies and its Nalanda Sriwijaya Centre, the National University of Singapore, and the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy. The participants included India's former Ambassador to China, C. V. Ranganathan, and author Sunanda K. Datta-Ray.

On whether the idea of a China-India initiative for the stability of Pakistan would at all fly, Mr. Wu, formerly a career diplomat, said: “The rise of Asia requires peace and stability in this region. So, you can see that China's interest and the Indian interest coincide. … We [in China] do not regard Pakistan as a counterweight to India. It is not propaganda: you [only] have to put yourself in China's shoes. .... For the first time since 1840, we have a chance to modernise China. To achieve our goal, what we need is peace abroad and stability at home.”

“Trust-building is now going on between China and India, and our common interests keep growing in the economic area, in trade and in other areas.” Despite “some obstacles,” the two countries “at the leadership level, are [also] very clear that they need each other.”

About the risk that Islamabad might see any China-India initiative as a ploy to “fix Pakistan,” he said: “We [China] can tell our Pakistani friends. At the same time, India and Pakistan have their own channel of communication.” On what he termed as “rumours” relating to the China-Pakistan moves in the civil nuclear domain, he said Beijing “abides by the international rules and will not go beyond them.”

[Pranav]

Call for China-India initiative for Pakistan's Stability

Hmm ... what is the definition of "stability".

[Vivek K]

That would be Independent Baluchistan, Independent Sindh and Punjab lumped with the rest of the cr$p!!Give peace a chance, break Pakistan into small pieces.

[abhishek_sharma]

Ending the zero-sum game
Suhasini Haidar

http://www.hindu.com/2010/07/12/stories ... 290800.htm

mild-WKK article.

[Prem]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_6
Legal minds of Pakistan —Yasser Latif Hamdani

Hindu society, by and large, has never had the sort of taboos about commerce that Muslims have had and therefore amongst Indians in general and Hindus in particular you find the field of commercial and business law developed. There is, for example, not a single decent book on securitisation written by a Pakistani lawyer, but look through any proper legal library in Lahore and you will find several by Indian authors. The finest books on such basic commercial building blocks as sale of goods, transfer of property, contract law, company law, etc, are all by Indian authors. It shows, first and foremost, the different stages of evolution of the two societies. One theory, my preferred one, is that the gap between Pakistan and India in terms of intellectual, economic and social development is roughly equal to the gap between Ram Mohan Roy and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan in terms of time.

(question is how many new educationa institutes they have build after 47,seems none and still have only those old colleges and hospitals buit with the donation by Kaffir Hindus and Sikhs or may be British pf pre 47 era)

[SSridhar]

Hardly three days are left for the visit of Mr. S.M. Krishna to Islamabad. Where is the 'credible action' that Pakistan promised before his visit ? Or, as usual, was it one more fast one that Pakistan pulled on India ?

[pgbhat]

Why should they? Has India taken credible action against Naxals?? Have they arrested Advani and Modi?

[Ambar]

Why should they? Has India taken credible action against Naxals?? Have they arrested Advani and Modi?

Advani and Modi?? If you are being sarcastic,then irony has been lost on me!

[shiv]

He was being sarcastic. He is preempting and predicting Pakistan's excuses for taking no action.

[ramana]

Call for China-India initiative for Pakistan's Stability

A senior member of the Chinese Foreign Ministry's Advisory Group has proposed that China and India cooperate for the stability of Pakistan in the present circumstances.

The Ministry's Foreign Policy Advisory Group Member, Wu Jianmin, told TheHindu here his intention was to “present this idea to the Chinese government in due course.” He said this on the sidelines of a conference on “the role of the media in India-China relations,” organised by the Singapore-based Institute of Southeast Asian Studies and its Nalanda Sriwijaya Centre, the National University of Singapore, and the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy. The participants included India's former Ambassador to China, C. V. Ranganathan, and author Sunanda K. Datta-Ray.

On whether the idea of a China-India initiative for the stability of Pakistan would at all fly, Mr. Wu, formerly a career diplomat, said: “The rise of Asia requires peace and stability in this region. So, you can see that China's interest and the Indian interest coincide. … We [in China] do not regard Pakistan as a counterweight to India. It is not propaganda: you [only] have to put yourself in China's shoes. .... For the first time since 1840, we have a chance to modernise China. To achieve our goal, what we need is peace abroad and stability at home.”

“Trust-building is now going on between China and India, and our common interests keep growing in the economic area, in trade and in other areas.” Despite “some obstacles,” the two countries “at the leadership level, are [also] very clear that they need each other.”

About the risk that Islamabad might see any China-India initiative as a ploy to “fix Pakistan,” he said: “We [China] can tell our Pakistani friends. At the same time, India and Pakistan have their own channel of communication.” On what he termed as “rumours” relating to the China-Pakistan moves in the civil nuclear domain, he said Beijing “abides by the international rules and will not go beyond them.”

Quite a change in PRC attitudes. He is promising a few things if India does somethings. No bad idea to follow up. Will post in the US-PRC India thread too.

[rohitvats]

^^^Is this a case of US and Ombaba delegating the management of South Asia (read India) to the Chinese?

[ajit_tr]

^^^Is this a case of US and Ombaba delegating the management of South Asia (read India) to the Chinese?

In that case India must join its forces with China and Pakistan and pull a fast one on Ombaba.

[putnanja]

^^^Is this a case of US and Ombaba delegating the management of South Asia (read India) to the Chinese?

In that case India must join its forces with China and Pakistan and pull a fast one on Ombaba.

dude, what are you smoking? did you even understand what rohitvats was talking about? what will India gain by joining with pakistan and china when both are trying their best to pull down India together?

[Airavat]

Pakistani Gujjars want to bring Rehmat Ali's rotted remains from Britain

Referring to an earlier speech by the PML-N senior leader and ex-deputy speaker of the National Assembly Chaudhry Jafar Iqbal Gujjar, he said the government would not stop the repatriation of the remains of a leader of Pakistan Movement late Chaudhry Rehmat Ali from England. “I believe there may be some technical reasons in bringing back the remains of the late leader. The government will not create hurdles in the process,” the minister said.

[SSridhar]

^^^Is this a case of US and Ombaba delegating the management of South Asia (read India) to the Chinese?

In that case India must join its forces with China and Pakistan and pull a fast one on Ombaba.

ajit_tr, I encourage you to expand on the rather laconic comment of yours. Don't be put off by strong views here. We want to hear different viewpoints. Present your case with facts and you may be able to change the mindset of many here. Do take part in debates. I really mean it. For example, what is that 'fast one' that we can pull, and what national interests will it serve ?

[Gagan]

pgbhat, Ambar, Shiv - saars,
You all are mistaking pakistan's sincerety and sense of equality and justice in a very sarcastic manner.

Pakistan is the only nation in the world where no matter how high a leader is, he is brought to justice and humbled. All the way from presidents to prime ministers, and after Mushy, Army chiefs too have been dismissed, sacked, forced to resign, coup-ed, exiled, hanged, killed on a whim.

Thus India not doing something as simple as arresting high and mighty on a whim of the Pakistanis is something they find to be very mysterious.
________________________________________________________________________________________
This seems to be one of the Chinese' versions of taquiya to save Pakistan.
Pakistan is important to china not just because it needles India. China hopes to use Pakistan to have a land link to the mouth of the persian gulf, and as a means to quickly build up its far-western provinces. China is also using Pakistan to destabilize Afghanistan so that US and India are cut off from CAR, while it tries to build inroads there via xinjiang.
If and when Afghanistan is reasonably stable, China hopes to get a hold of its mineral wealth and a big chunk of the trade and reconstruction pie - all routed via pakistan and the Karakoram highway.

So Pakistan and its continuing unity and survival as a nation is important to china.

[naren]

In that case India must join its forces with China and Pakistan and pull a fast one on Ombaba.

dude, what are you smoking? did you even understand what rohitvats was talking about? what will India gain by joining with pakistan and china when both are trying their best to pull down India together?

Dont joo understand ? Kuffar hindustan will be humbled by Almighty China. Glorious Mughal empire will be restored. Then, the combined weight of Mughal Empire v2.0 + China can pull "a fast one on Ombaba". The white man will go back to their dark ages. Islam will once again grace this world with its bissfulness.

[darshhan]

Pakistan's population projected to reach 450 million by 2050.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -170-hh-09

That's an amazing growth rate.To give an idea if India grows at the same rate we will have about 3 billion people in this country.I wonder what is going to become of Pakistan even without all the civil strife and hostile neighbours.

This also means India will have to build up its military capabilities continuously as a desperate and starving pakistan will definitely try to deflect attention by ratcheting up Indo-pak hostilities.

[Gagan]

In that case India must join its forces with China and Pakistan and pull a fast one on Ombaba.

ajit_tr, I encourage you to expand on the rather laconic comment of yours. Do take part in debates. I really mean it. For example, what is that 'fast one' that we can pull, and what national interests will it serve ?

Sridhar Sir,

I assume that ajit_tr is from the land of the pure. And if that is true, then to expect him to present a well reasoned argument, taking all the pros and cons into consideration and thinking beyond the immediate future, is futile.

To expect a well reasoned argument is like "Bhains ke aage been bajana".

I have wondered why are pakistanis so strategically myopic? They only think of the immediate consequences, and immediate gratification, and absolutely no long term cost-benefit analysis ever occurs. This explains a lot of things - everything from Kargil to the lack of chess grandmasters from the land of the pure.
If they started thinking and using their grey matter, they wouldn't be Pakistanis.

ajit_tr,
Surprise all of us with an honest attempt at as best a case as you can put forward. You have some of the best thinking minds of the indian subcontinent and beyond as a possible audience.

[svinayak]

I have wondered why are pakistanis so strategically myopic? They only think of the immediate consequences, and immediate gratification, and absolutely no long term cost-benefit analysis ever occurs. This explains a lot of things - everything from Kargil to the lack of chess grandmasters from the land of the pure.

Because all of these actions are for somebody else. They - 3.5 friends will take care of Pakistan and hence Pakistan can afford to be myopic. It will take some time to understand this and it will open your mind.

[SSridhar]

I have wondered why are pakistanis so strategically myopic? They only think of the immediate consequences, and immediate gratification, and absolutely no long term cost-benefit analysis ever occurs. This explains a lot of things - everything from Kargil to the lack of chess grandmasters from the land of the pure.

Because all of these actions are for somebody else. They - 3.5 friends will take care of Pakistan and hence Pakistan can afford to be myopic. It will take some time to understand this and it will open your mind.

That is true. But, there is also a more underlying problem with Pakistan. That country itself willingly chose to adopt the way it has been following for 63 years now. The way it would choose to deal with India was visible much before Independence, the way in which the Muslim League developed the narrative and demands for an independent country, the opportunistic alliances it struck, the perfidious and villainous approach of its leaders, and the use of terror as a legitimate policy. All these aspects have gone into defining the Pakistani policy with respect to India and have been steadfastly followed. The RAPEs, bureaucrats, the military, the clergy, the politicians and the common man & woman on the street have the same objective wrt India.

Jinnah might have had an ego problem with Gandhi & Nehru and hence wanted to create a separate country (like how Sage Viswamitra created a paradise for Trishanku); the British might have helped in this Trishanku Swarag; the big landlords, vaderas and zamindars might have felt threatened by a more egalitarian INC and might have opted for a Pakistan; the pirs, sajida nashins and their followers in the Sind, Punjab & NWFP might have been fed with stories of how Islam was in grave danger in Hindustan; the Muslims of the Gangetic plains might have been told how the Hindus would simply swamp them with their power and how honey and milk would flow freely in Pakistan accompanied by cool breeze; the Muslim Princes might have been offered concessions and titles etc. Whatever was needed to be done was done to create this artificial entity called Pakistan and its survival depends on the hatred for Hindustan and its denizens, whether there are 3½ friends or not. Of course, the 3½ are clever enough to exploit the situation.

[svinayak]

Because all of these actions are for somebody else. They - 3.5 friends will take care of Pakistan and hence Pakistan can afford to be myopic. It will take some time to understand this and it will open your mind.[

That is true. But, there is also a more underlying problem with Pakistan. That country itself willingly chose to adopt the way it has been following for 63 years now. The way it would choose to deal with India was visible much before Independence, the way in which the Muslim League developed the narrative and demands for an independent country, the opportunistic alliances it struck, the perfidious and villainous approach of its leaders, and the use of terror as a legitimate policy. All these aspects have gone into defining the Pakistani policy with respect to India and have been steadfastly followed. The RAPEs, bureaucrats, the military, the clergy, the politicians and the common man & woman on the street have the same objective wrt India.

It is all about back stabbing behind the back for more than 100 years. But backstabbing has to be done with somebody's cooperation. It is the Anglos first before independence and then with the anglo americans after 1970s.
All these friends have been listening to Pakistan and its RAPE for more than 50 years complaining about Indians and Hindus. It was very convenient as long as it was not in their backyard. It was free for them and it helped them in their global geo politics to box in India as long as possible.

[Pratyush]

Ssridhar, Acharya, Gagan,

Myopia is always consdered as a weakness in any cultural context. What we need to find out is how to hurt the 3.5 friends of TSP for the myopia of TSP. As they may have deep pockets but they can't have pockets deep enough to keep bailing out TSP in prepetuity. Once that is accomplished only then can we have some breathing space.

JMT

[Pranav]

Ssridhar, Acharya, Gagan,

Myopia is always consdered as a weakness in any cultural context. What we need to find out is how to hurt the 3.5 friends of TSP for the myopia of TSP. As they may have deep pockets but they can't have pockets deep enough to keep bailing out TSP in prepetuity. Once that is accomplished only then can we have some breathing space.

JMT

Can't declare hostilities against all 3.5 godfathers. Saama, Daama, Bheda, Danda are applicable to actors within TSP as well as to external sponsors.

[RajeshA]

Whatever was needed to be done was done to create this artificial entity called Pakistan and its survival depends on the hatred for Hindustan and its denizens, whether there are 3½ friends or not. Of course, the 3½ are clever enough to exploit the situation.

Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.

• Pakistan's paranoia of India
• Western Europe's paranoia of Soviet Union
• Japan's paranoia of China
• Japan's paranoia of a nuclear North Korea
• Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries' paranoia of Iran

This paranoia of the neighbor is a free bonanza for the Anglo-American policy-makers. They had to spend very little capital for the persuasion of others. There was no need for either carrots or of sticks. A hollow promise of support, where the paranoia was against another ally, and a more substantial support, where the paranoia was against another, who was anyway an opponent of the Anglo-American world order.

In fact the paranoid countries have contributed enormously to the power projection of the Anglo-American combine. Every paranoid country has either paid in market access, in military purchases, in mineral wealth, or in mercenary services.

Those who have paid in market access, are the ones who have had a net gain as market access was mutual. India today is trying to integrate itself into the Anglo-American world order through this route, as well as to some extent through military purchases (read dependence). In return India also expects USA to be forthcoming on strategic issues, like on Pakistan. However market access today does not carry the same value as it did in the 1950s when a Cold War was in progress.

So America does not really feel obliged to India to an extent, that it would be willing to forsake the use of a military force of 1.5 million men, deployable in regions, where anti-American sentiment runs strong. Basically, in theory, it is still a good bang for the buck.

Paranoid states are an asset to world powers.

[shravan]

KOHAT: Casualties are feared in a suicide attack in Khawasi Banda area of kohat, Geo News reported police sources say Monday

[Pranav]

Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.

• Pakistan's paranoia of India

In the case of TSP, it is not paranoia, it is hatred of the Kuffar, and desire to dominate.

[RajeshA]

Myopia is always consdered as a weakness in any cultural context. What we need to find out is how to hurt the 3.5 friends of TSP for the myopia of TSP. As they may have deep pockets but they can't have pockets deep enough to keep bailing out TSP in prepetuity. Once that is accomplished only then can we have some breathing space.

India is doing all it can to wean away the 3½ friends away from Pakistan.

India has improved her relations with most countries across the spectrum including 3½ friends. India is trying her best to show, that the factor of Fear of India's Rise, and Strategic Tussle is not a driving force behind the support of 3½ friends to Pakistan.

The other factor is for Pakistan to be seen more of a liability to the 3½ friends than as a force multiplier.

If the countries are getting a blow-back because of their support to Pakistan, then they will sit up and take notice about their support.

This can manifest itself as trouble in China's Xinjiang Province by the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, or a proliferation of Chinese nuclear weapons gifted to Pakistan by China coming into the hands of ETIM or some other group having a grudge against China. As Pakistan becomes ever more dysfunctional and produces ever less, it would need more financial support from its 3½ friends. Would China be willing to pick up the bill. Till now it was the Americans and the Saudis who paid in dollars.

Similarly America has a 1.5 million strong Muslim military at its disposal in Pakistan. Would America give it up?!

Of course, there are voices, which say Pakistan is more of a problem, than part of the solution. That is the blow-back to America from Pakistan due to their relationship, is stronger than the mercenary services and a military platform that Pakistan provides. It is a tussle of opinion in Washington.

However an increasing amount of intelligence and media reports on Pakistan's duplicity resulting in the loss of American lives would cause the balance to shift in opinion in Washington against Pakistan.

America could decide that like in the 90s, that it doesn't need Pakistan anymore.

Similarly the Saudis may get some brunt of the anger in Pakistan for not coming to Pakistan's aid, especially when the economy of Pakistan dives. The spread of Wahabbism in Pakistan may also cause a backlash against the Saudis.

The other ½ friend, be it Japan or UK, too are coming around to the viewpoint that it is better to have good relations with India, than to encourage Pakistan to needle India.

[RajeshA]

Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.

• Pakistan's paranoia of India

In the case of TSP, it is not paranoia, it is hatred of the Kuffar, and desire to dominate.

Being on the losing wicket makes you see the world differently! Pakistan has been on the losing wicket from Day 1. Now more so than before.

[SSridhar]

Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.

• Pakistan's paranoia of India

In the case of TSP, it is not paranoia, it is hatred of the Kuffar, and desire to dominate.

The Pakistanis know/knew that they cannot/couldn't easily dominate India however much they may hate them. So, they adopted various strategies. All of them were masks put on for the purpose of justifying their aggression against India. One of them certainly was 'paranoia'. It helped in two important ways. One, it heightened the sense of alarm among the masses and made it easy for the important stakeholders to control or mould the society. Two, Pakistan justified its actions vis-a-vis India to its 3½ friends (and others who mattered or were willing to listen) on the basis of this paranoia.

[Pranav]

The Pakistanis know/knew that they cannot/couldn't easily dominate India however much they may hate them. So, they adopted various strategies. All of them were masks put on for the purpose of justifying their aggression against India. One of them certainly was 'paranoia'. It helped in two important ways. One, it heightened the sense of alarm among the masses and made it easy for the important stakeholders to control or mould the society. Two, Pakistan justified its actions vis-a-vis India to its 3½ friends (and others who mattered or were willing to listen) on the basis of this paranoia.

Right, the paranoia itself is a mask put on for the benefit of the rabble and the foreign sponsors.

Many westerners now understand that the paranoia is ludicrous ... but not too many westerners understand as yet that it is a mask.

[Gagan]

Somehow I don't fully accept the notion that Pakistan was a moth-eaten state destined to fail.

SSridhar-ji's post on promises made to the muslim princes seems to ring true it seems.
The muslim princes' main concern would have been to protect their estates and status, which I am sure the founding fathers of Pakistan promised. To this day they have not implemented land reforms as a direct result of this and moreover their inability to see through any such process.

Compare this with Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel having to strong-arm some of the states on this side of the border. Because India and the congress didn't promise a bed of roses to the princes. The approach was much more realist, the problems of a huge and impoverished nation were well understood by visionary leaders. The initial years and decades shaped India to be what it is to this day.

The pakistanis never tried to succeed, or stand up on their feet. That is because they never felt anything but hatred for India, and they've always tried to use outsider's money and support to undercut India.

[RajeshA]

Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.

• Pakistan's paranoia of India

In the case of TSP, it is not paranoia, it is hatred of the Kuffar, and desire to dominate.

The Pakistanis know/knew that they cannot/couldn't easily dominate India however much they may hate them. So, they adopted various strategies. All of them were masks put on for the purpose of justifying their aggression against India. One of them certainly was 'paranoia'. It helped in two important ways. One, it heightened the sense of alarm among the masses and made it easy for the important stakeholders to control or mould the society. Two, Pakistan justified its actions vis-a-vis India to its 3½ friends (and others who mattered or were willing to listen) on the basis of this paranoia.

Well there was some paranoia in the Muslims when they started to voice the demand for a separate nation - they were paranoid about the Hindu domination.

Today they have their own nation, but they are still paranoid. This paranoia may not be about the immediate danger of being attacked by India militarily, but there is still the civilizational paranoia: that they can dominate an ever strengthening India neither economically nor militarily, and a civilization that lives and prospers not on what it produces but rather on what it loots, cannot survive for long without the loot.

Of course, when the Muslims demanded their own nation, their paranoia of the Hindu, made them forget that, that the Muslim civilization survives on the productivity of the others. Perhaps a very big mistake indeed for them.

The hate for the Hindu, IMHO, has far more to do, with the fact, that in the new dispensation on the Indian Subcontinent, the Hindus would not need to pay jaziya nor can the Muslims simply loot the Hindu at their whim and desire.

The metaphor "Grow or Die" has a meaning in Islamic Civilization as well.

Of course the Pakistanis have used the other paranoia: that of being attacked by India, as a tool for justifying its various transgressions and policies.

But others (read Anglo-America) have also made use of Pakistan's paranoia, the civilizational paranoia.

[Suppiah]

The most important and necessary pre-condition to any Indo-Chinese cooperation on TSP front, whether in cooperation with TSP or not, is the de-fanging of TSP nukes and of course, an end of all hostility and terror. Specifically it should include disbanding TSPA/ISI at least as it operates now as a statelet.

If China cannot deliver this on the table, no point at all dreaming ourselves wet..if they can do that, GOI should seriously consider asking PRC what they in turn want, in re Unkil...chances are PRC will say help us keep Unkil out of ME/Far East and for that matter all of Asia....that is not necessarily bad bargain provided the pieces fall in place prior to that..if Unkil can sell us to TSP/Taliban and anyone and everyone bidding in the marketplace, we can do that back to them and sell them short to whoever bids for their head.

So I have to say our paki friend here has a point...but not if TSPs or the Stalinist idea of this bhai-bhai stuff is GOI merely surrendering territory (strategically or otherwise) merely in exchange of future vague promises and empty words.

[Pranav]

This paranoia may not be about the immediate danger of being attacked by India militarily, but there is still the civilizational paranoia: that they can dominate an ever strengthening India neither economically nor militarily, and a civilization that lives and prospers not on what it produces but rather on what it loots, cannot survive for long without the loot.

Of course, when the Muslims demanded their own nation, their paranoia of the Hindu, made them forget that, that the Muslim civilization survives on the productivity of the others. Perhaps a very big mistake indeed for them.

The hate for the Hindu, IMHO, has far more to do, with the fact, that in the new dispensation on the Indian Subcontinent, the Hindus would not need to pay jaziya nor can the Muslims simply loot the Hindu at their whim and desire.

Good points ... quite valid in the subcontinental context. Although what you describe is more correctly labeled as frustrated aggression rather than paranoia, IMHO.

[RajeshA]

Although what you describe is more correctly labeled as frustrated aggression rather than paranoia, IMHO.

It is indeed frustrated aggression, but if one's existence is dependent on successful aggression, than it would have shades of paranoia.

[Philip]

"F" mag says in an article that we are being made to "pick up the tab for the Angl-American war fatigue".Now we are being asked to "stabilise" Pak with mortal enemy China (pak's godfather supreme ),which is still hell bent upon destabilising India,severing Kashmir from us and along with China is playing a diabolic game of nuclear proliferataion and blackmail-the west that if it is not looked after,it might hand over N-weapons to the ungodly. There is absolutely NO way that those incharge of events in Pak can control the situ and make a lasting peace with India.Pak virtually has to renounce its history and foundation,as an Islamic state and embrace its true heritage that of thousands of years of sub-continental "Indian" heritage.This it cannot do,Therefore,only the breakup of Pak into smaller more manageable entities and a lesser threat to India will suffice.It will also be easier for the west to handle Pak's nukes.The west will never succeed in Af-Pak as long as Pak provides refuge and haven for the Taliban and for this the war must be taken deep into Pak.Unless the military rulers /ISI of Pak are brought to their knees,Uncle Obama and his NATO allies will be up the Khyber without a donkey!