J & K news and discussion

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Sep 2010 06:51

shiv wrote:
brihaspati wrote:There is an intensive demand, and sought to be viciously imposed wherever ideas are exchanged - that the Kashmiri separatist type of violence should always be explained away by economic demand, life aspirations, neglect, supposed repression or feelings or repression, needling from "outside" - but never ever linked to "inside", from within one's faith, from within the country and region, from within its historical continuity, aspirations that developed in a different period of barbaric sway of one faith over others. Search everywhere else but the real reasons - if you do you are demonizing a faith.
Not jut India - but there has been a global level dhimmitutde in tippy-toeing around what is a very ancient Islamist tactic. That is to pick up a grievance - organize a mob, ensure some deaths and then convert one grievance into two (original one plus mreder and suppression).

In modern times this Islamic state, Islamic republic state is a fake and does not have a basis on modern political theory. It is is just a totalitarian state with a sharia under a constitution to intimidate and coerce the general population. The ruling regime is a cartel of the elite of that race,region. The anglo empire created this modern version of Islamic state to fool the rest of the world(Indians/Hindus) and mostly for creating Pakistan to partition India their prime possession.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Sep 2010 06:54

Folks an appeal at first, can we give it a rest bashing Indian political parties here? The problem is Islamist hijacking the Kashmiri Sufi protests. This is my second request.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Sep 2010 07:20

ramanaji,
"Sufi" protests in the past of Kashmir comparable to what it started of as in the modern period! moreover the record of "sufism" in Kashmir is not above board either.

Tarikh-i-Kashmir was written by Haidar Malik Chadurah, was a Kashmiri aristocrat in the service of Sultan Yusuf Shah (AD 1579-1586) and purports to give the history of Kashmir. Earlier portions are based on Kalhana’s Rajatarangini with some additions in the later period. It was begun in AD 1618 and finished sometime after 1620-21.

Sufi Mir Shamsuddin Iraqi of Kashmir was a sufi of the Kubrawiyya sect who came to Kashmir first in AD 1481, next in AD 1501, and finally in 1505 in the reign of Sultan Fath Shah. He found it convenient to work as a member of the Nr Bakhsh Sufi sect. Tarikh-i-Kashmir says:

“…Baba Uchah Ganai went for circumambulation of the two harms (Mecca and Medina)… in search of the perfect guide (Pir-i-Kamil). He prayed to God (to help) him when he heard a voice from the unknown that the ‘perfect guide’ was in Kashmir himself… Hazrat Shaikh, Baba Uchah Ganai… returned to Kashmir… All of a sudden his eyes fell upon a place of worship, the temples of the Hindus. He smiled; when the devotees asked the cause of (his smile) he replied that the destruction and demolition of these places of worship and the destruction of the idols will take place at the hand of the high born Sheikh Shams-ud-Din Irraqi. He will soon be coming from Iraq and shall turn the temples completely desolate, and most of the misled people will accept the path of guidance and Islam… So as was ordained Sheikh Shams-ud-Din reached Kashmir. He began destroying the places of worship and the temples of the Hindus and made an effort to achieve the objectives.” [Tarikh-Kashmir, edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, pp. l02-03. ]

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 19 Sep 2010 07:22

Ramanaji,
I am compelled to counter you.What Bji says so succintly(and our venerable Shivji agress) is this Sufi thing is just a cover for the real thing-the fundamental incompatibility of Islam(whether the followers or the ideology) to come to terms with modernity/reality/history particularly in Bharata Varsha because it is rooted in 7th century Arabia and it 'seems impossible' for a significant number of its followers to come to terms with other thought processes except through raw subjugation and violence.

I am preaching to the leader of the choir.We should not obfuscate with Sufism/kashmiriyat.The Cashmere protests are natural evolution of the ideology.Infact the despised/corrupt NC are the Indic remnants-relatively moderate/relatively secular/corrupted by kufr ideologies(meaning the attractions of Life itself) lacking the dead certainity of Islamism.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 19 Sep 2010 07:43

Cashmere problem is a 'distraction'.The real epicentre is Rawalpindi supported by China.We shouldn't be 'wasting' so much time on the 'greivances,autonomy' and all this crap.India's writ will run.The Kshatra element(IA) has made that clear. No more kow tow to ragtag elements in our polity.

No more power will be ceded to NC.The NC is now repaying for all the bribes received.No other go.It is called Karma.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Sep 2010 07:48

I had communication from my KM friend [who incidentally happens to be 15 years my senior] to the intent that his eldest son has been "lost" to the movement. This is a man who refused to serve beef and who acknowledged his ancestry from the "Pundits". It was he who first opened my eyes to the track record of the "Sufis" in Kashmir. His words were that those among the KM who shunned the Islamist path were actually following their pre-Islamic Kashmiri Pundit or Hindu ethos of avoiding fanaticism and hence were no match for the determined and planned violence and standard Islamist expansion strategies that were the reason for Islamist success in the first place in Kashmir. Further, that deception was a core part of Islamist behaviour and this created a fundamental dilemma for the "Hindu ethos" which considers such behaviour "adharmika". His lament in the communication was that he was being torn between parental love and guilt that he could not inculcate his own values into his son.

He is aware that I have changed much in my views in the decade we have not met in person, and says that he congratulates me for my realization. He hopes that we do not repeat the mistakes his ancestors made. They had a chance of being reabsorbed [there was a specific point in history] but were refused by the "unconverted" Pundits.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Sep 2010 07:56

svenkat wrote:Cashmere problem is a 'distraction'.The real epicentre is Rawalpindi supported by China.

..er not to forget the world's only superpower who has done a magnificent job in supporting the cause. Nations build icons to their heroes. The US has a symbol of its power named "USS Ronald Reagan" - the very man who described the parents of today's stone throwers as "freedom fighters"

I think we are doing a great disservice to ourselves by letting off the US's role lightly. China's pre eminence today rides piggyback on the US's chicanery. More of this in the China threat thread.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Sep 2010 08:15

Shiv, perhaps the (European, Western) colonial impulse has a great deal in common with Islamism.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 19 Sep 2010 08:16

ramana wrote:Folks an appeal at first, can we give it a rest bashing Indian political parties here? The problem is Islamist hijacking the Kashmiri Sufi protests. This is my second request.

Let's all cut the crap about the super-amazing Sufism - it's just a fake canard to allow Muslims to pat themselves on the back all day. The beloved Sufis have done their share of ethnic cleansing against infidels.

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Sep 2010 08:21

How to win friends and influence people, in the typically arrogant Israeli style. ………….. Namely one of never letting the fact that large swaths of the world are lined up to exterminate you get in the way of providing a platform to those not lined up to exterminate you as long as they take a swipe at those lined up to exterminate you

.

In the frenzy to take a swipe at the Arabs, the Jerusalem Post provides a platform to those who take a swipe at India

:

Why isn’t India a pariah state?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 19 Sep 2010 08:30

Why assume that vina was saying Sufis are "nonviolent"? Sufis exist throughout the Islamic world in all the places that have been conquered by Islam's sword. It is not a phenomenon specific to India or Kashmir.

I think the idea of Sufism being "peaceful" arises partly because the Left/Secularists are themselves apprehensive and alienated from Islam, and want to promote an idea of "Sufism" to IMs...but I don't think vina has ever suggested that Sufism is "nonviolent", but simply that it is part of the native Islamic (Persian) tradition as opposed to the newer arrivals in the past 25 years. In a phenomenon that is widely observed, we've seen native versions of Islam from Chechnya to Indonesia eradicated or marginalized in favor of Saudi backed versions fuelled by Saudi money.

The KM separatists are not really Wahhabi, but vina is quite on the mark with saying that the rise of separatism has to do with the rise of foreign influence - that is Pakistani backing, Arab funding, and the initial spark given by the training of the mujahideen in Afghanistan a hundred or so miles away.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 19 Sep 2010 08:52

TOI takes to romanticizing terrorists - all in the name of peace of course....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 582708.cms

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Sep 2010 08:57

Must consider past pledges to J&K: Chidambaram

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Must-cons ... 01945.aspx

"Over the years, several promises have been made to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and we should act on those
promises," Chidambaram (65) told Hindustan Times. “Based on the agreements and accords of 1952, 1975, and 1986, we must address these promises.

Chidambaram indicated that Delhi would consider more autonomy for Kashmir. “The content of the demand for autonomy is a matter for dialogue and discussion,” he said.

wig · Post by **wig** » 19 Sep 2010 09:02

meanwhile amidst all the weighty discussions going on we have an article that shows the kashmiri leadership in its disgraceful reality, read on-

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100919/main2.htm

As Valley kids suffer, separatists’ wards thrive in safe havens
While the separatists want the children of the common man to come out on the roads to protest and leave their studies for a ‘bigger cause’, their own children and family members are getting the best education in other parts of the country and even abroad.

The Tribune has a list of some of the senior separatist leaders whose children and relatives are studying in other parts of the country or abroad.

Nayeem Geelani, son of the chairman of the hard line faction of the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Syed Ali Geelani, who has been spearheading the agitation for the past more than three months, is a medical practitioner in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. Nayeem’s wife is also in the same profession there.

Geelani’s second son, Zahoor Geelani, along with his family lives in New Delhi. Izhaar Geelani, grandson of Syed Ali Geelani, is a crew member of a private airliner in India, while his daughter Farhat Geelani is a teacher in Jeddah and her husband is an engineer there. Gulam Nabi Fall, a cousin of the octogenarian separatist leader, lives in London.Rabia Farooq, sister of chairman of the moderate faction of the Hurriyat Conference Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, is a doctor and lives in the USA. Jugnu, son of Ghulam Mohammed Sumzi, general secretary of the Geelani faction, is a management student in New Delhi. Abid Sehrai, son of Mohammed Ashraf Sehrai, another general secretary of the Geelani faction, is a computer engineer in Dubai.

Mariyam Andrabi, sister of head of the radical Dukhtran-e-Millat Asiya Andrabi, along with her family lives in Malaysia. Asiya wanted to send her elder son to Malaysia for further studies, but he was denied a passport.

Rooma Maqbool, son of head of Mass Movement Farida Behanjee, lives and works as a medical practitioner in South Africa. Iqbal and Bilal, sons of head of the Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Liberation Party Hashim Qureshi, live in London.

Sarwar Yaqub, son of a spokesman for the Geelani faction, Ayaz Akbar, is a management student in Pune, while two sons of another leader of the Geelani faction Abdul Aziz Dar, Umer Dar and Adil Dar are studying in Pakistan.

While for the past three months the education of the children of common people in the Valley has suffered a severe blow due to the ongoing unrest, a majority of the separatist leaders in Kashmir have made it sure that their children get quality education outside Kashmir. More than 100 persons, mostly youths, have died in the ongoing unrest in the Valley.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Sep 2010 09:22

Kashmiryat, Pakistaniyat and Indutva

http://epaper.indianexpress.com/IE/IEH/ ... tml?Mode=1

Normal URL isn't working

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 19 Sep 2010 09:40

Where does Seperatists gets money from ? Pakistan ? They are begging already ? Then whom whom ?

Many young stone-throwers on the frontlines do not appear like Islamic radicals. They dress well, like music, cellphones and girlfriends are often discussed. Do they do what they do because they believe or does, as the police often allege, money play a part?
“We earned Rs 200 to Rs 300 as daily wage labourers,” says one of a group of masked young stone throwers. “Now we get between Rs 1,000 to Rs 1,500.” Who pays them? “The separatists,” one offers. In a quiet, two-room home with open drains outside, 20-year-old street icon, Owais Ahmed ‘Mandela’, freely admits to receiving money. Where does it come from? He shrugs.
Refer - http://www.hindustantimes.com/We-the-Ka ... 01933.aspx

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Sep 2010 10:00

Thomas Kolarek wrote: Where does Seperatists gets money from ? Pakistan ? They are begging already ? Then whom whom ?
Refer - http://www.hindustantimes.com/We-the-Ka ... 01933.aspx

[/quote]

sigh..

All 180 million Pakistanis are not poor. the army and the islamists corner most of the money in Pakistan ensuring that they are rich. You could well ask - "If Pakistan is poor, how can Zardari have a palace in France?". Pakistanis beg to get more money. Not because they are poor. Many Pakistanis are very very rich at the expense of the poor.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Sep 2010 10:22

Omar must know Army is not the enemy
M J Akbar

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... -the-enemy

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 Sep 2010 10:23

Karan M wrote:......... pandits,Its what happened to the hindus in bangladesh,many Hindus being killed, molested, mutilated, and attacked purely because they were Hindu,.......but exists across Bengal, the North East, Central and even South India

........There are riots in Maharashtra when a Hindu organization puts up a banner on Afzal, Shivaji. A hindu organization is attacked in Chennai by a prominent Muslim leader when they showcase what Aurangzeb did to non Muslims. Taslima Nasreen is phsyically attacked in Hyderabad by a legislator and his goons at a public conference. All these occur in that perfectly fine, secular India.

....... If one were to read your post, the conclusion would be that bigotry in Kashmir really took off thanks to the Persians and things were hunky dory before. And now suddenly, India is in the midst of the global islamist surge which has reached its nadir.

Quite a long litany of complaints, but all that basically comes down to two points..

1) That is that insidious effects of a Arabized fundamentalist islam that tears apart the social fabric of long settled and local muslim communities in the pursuit of an irredentist fundamentalist Islamic Ummah. The roots of that is is in the Gulf with their new found oil money and influence. India in fact caught the first wave of that , thanks to the procivilities of the Pakis who actively wanted it and elements of the local muslim community who are given towards fundamentalism.

2) There is a tremendous modernity deficit in EVERY muslim society and this WITHOUT EXCEPTION, compared to their neighbors of other faiths. Note , this is true at an AVERAGE and of course there will be individual muslims and groups who are as modern (in the larger sense of thought and civilizational aspirations and not the crude modern = wearing trousers and women wearing skirts and bikinis) as anyone else.

Yes, this modernity deficit is striking. Whether is is the east like malaysia /indonesia , India, middle east (christian and jew compared to muslims in ME, even among say Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqi etc) to west (Balkans) and even Stalin failed to modernize those societies (chechnya for eg) despite such coercion . Yes, the Shah of Iran and Ataturk in Turkey recognized that and tried to crash modernize their countries with varying degree of success (more successful in turkey, disaster in Iran) . It is striking when you talk to even folks like Albanians and others who you would have thought they were "modern" people like their neighbors from greece, croatia, slovenia etc, but it is jarring to hear stuff like blood money and diyas and other such medieval stuff. All the Turks I knew in US were the high brow , secular, pork eating and living near Bosporus Turks who would detest their more traditional country cousins.You just have to speak to Germans and French about the class of immigrants there and some of the complaints we tend to make in India about muslims being ghettoized , self segregated , unable to fit are all exactly the same.

That is the problem. That modernity deficit and the lack of any achievement to be proud of in the modern world gives rise to the cognitive dissonance in Islamic societies. They are given the self image that as the "last" revealed religion that they are the top of the heap , with say Islam Ver 5, Christanity Ver 3, Judaisim version 1 and others Ver 0 or something. Now when reality shows that you are zero and every other society is racing forward, that gives serious pisko logee takleef and that fundamentalism is I think a major defense response.

Into this is where the Arabized islam spread from the Middle East kindles the unsettled muslims in local societies.

Look at the latest on this here TODAY Radical Muslims on the rise in the Balkans . And F. Yugoslavia was one of the most integrated and well settled muslim socieites

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 19 Sep 2010 10:44

It’s not enough to simply survive. Poets and philosophers may beg to differ, but a benign strategy of live and let live, though popular over the centuries, has always failed. Always.
Can't they ban Hurriyat quietly. Drain their resources, stop all the loopholes of money laundering, distribution.
Stop being pu**y. Act like a regional power. Crush with out mercy.

abhishek_sharma wrote:Must consider past pledges to J&K: Chidambaram

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Must-cons ... 01945.aspx

"Over the years, several promises have been made to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and we should act on those
promises," Chidambaram (65) told Hindustan Times. “Based on the agreements and accords of 1952, 1975, and 1986, we must address these promises.

Chidambaram indicated that Delhi would consider more autonomy for Kashmir. “The content of the demand for autonomy is a matter for dialogue and discussion,” he said.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Sep 2010 10:57

abhishek_sharma wrote:Omar must know Army is not the enemy
M J Akbar

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... -the-enemy

Guys, mother India's territorial integrity, indeed the idea of mother India itself is more sacred than my puny bombastic boast of "I predicted so". The bloody chutiyas like Nivukula (who had the gall to call Kashmiri Pandits as "communal fascists", thoo), Bakara, Sagarika, Noornai, ARoy etc, don't even have a clue on the diabolical game being played by TSP. As I told you when this stone-pelting started, TSP's game plan is to wean away Indian army, the only entity that can defend India from TSP's and USA's machinations. M.J. Akbar says so more eloquently

to weaken the Indian Army in Kashmir is to weaken India.

Thanks to fellow BRites for posting other brilliant articles by Vir Sanghvi and Sudeendra Kulkarni. The bold-faced lie perpetuated by the western racist madarch**ds is that "Hindu India" is denying Muslims their right of self determination. When the bold-faced truth is that what India is doing is preserving the noble idea of pluralism that forms the core of Indian nationhood, the core of Hindu civilization. This fact must drilled into the western boneheads who support and sustain the Harried rats in the valley and their demented demands of secessionaism rooted in Islamic fascism.

PrasadZ · Post by **PrasadZ** » 19 Sep 2010 11:01

JMT
The secular Indian state tries to draw a fine line between opposing terror in the name of Islam and opposing Islam itself. To me, the forum reads as if the members believe there is no distinction between islam and terror - one, inevitably, leads to the other. For proof, forum members will refer to the many wrongs committed against "Indic values" by the followers of Islam - some historical, some current.
Is it a surprise that you preach to the choir, dear Sirs?
In today's India, religious affiliation is just one amongst many possible and that right should be available to the Kashmiri as well. Calling out every terrorist act of the Kashmiri youth as driven by Islam ensures you get no hearing from the 13% non hindu in India and a lukewarm hearing from the overwhelming majority of hindus who dont see their faith lessened by the choice of a few people like the Kashmiris.
The issues, IMHO, we need to discuss is the political space available to us, not the religious space they may or may not have.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Sep 2010 11:09

abhishek_sharma wrote:Must consider past pledges to J&K: Chidambaram

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Must-cons ... 01945.aspx

Interesting gambit by PC to quell the temperature, which is the last thing TSP wants. Lets see how TSP responds. For sure (another prediction from me), MMS & Co are going to announce some major concessions. Despite PC's "saffron terror" nonsesne, I am confident that with people like him at the helm, MMS/Sonia won't be able to sell India out with their "South Asia" dream of joint administration of the valley with TSP.

AbhishekD · Post by **AbhishekD** » 19 Sep 2010 11:35

Mr PrasadZ, what do you know about the Kashmiri terrorism. The first thing these people did was ethnic cleansing of hindus. If ethnic cleansing of hindus is not religious bigotry then I am not sure what is religious bigotry.

People such as navlakha are sold out people or demented who do not understand the difference between appeasement and peace.

Kashmir will always remain a part of India and this fight will be fought till its bitter end and god forbid if it indeed happens that Kashmir valley goes its own way then with it India's pluralism will also go and a soul of India. We are fighting to the essential and foundational principles in Kashmir, howsoever clumsy that fight maybe

Abhishek

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 19 Sep 2010 12:01

PrasadZ wrote:To me, the forum reads as if the members believe there is no distinction between islam and terror.

There is a distinction between Islam and the many modern ideologies of Islamism, and the latter are responsible for terror and genocide in J&K and the wider world.

If you have an issue with the posts of members, report them to moderators. Kindly don't derail this thread.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Sep 2010 12:25

PrasadZ wrote: Calling out every terrorist act of the Kashmiri youth as driven by Islam ensures you get no hearing from the 13% non hindu in India and a lukewarm hearing from the overwhelming majority of hindus who dont see their faith lessened by the choice of a few people like the Kashmiris.

These are words of heavy import and wisdom. However the words carry the implicit threat that if we keep talking like this we will be ignored. How can you speak for everyone else?

Nobody should ever miss or deny an Islamic link to terror if it should ever occur again because people who hold moderate, civilized, wise, secular and enlightened opinions such as you do would be less likely to call Islamic terror as Islamic terror. That fear is higher on this forum than the Islam provoked violence.

If I get hit on the head and am walking around with a bleeding head wound and I go to a doctor insisting that he should look at and bandage my hand, my leg, my butt and anything but my head, my wound is likely to fester from negligence and denial. That is precisely the problem.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Sep 2010 12:45

[quote="CRamS"]

The bloody chutiyas like Nivukula (who had the gall to call Kashmiri Pandits as "communal fascists", thoo), Bakara, Sagarika, Noornai, ARoy etc, don't even have a clue on the diabolical game being played by TSP.

[quote]

CRamS ji,

Whatever gave you this very quaint idea??

From you often erudite writings here, I really would have thought that this would be absolutely the very last conclusion that someone like yourself would draw.

Of course they all have that very same idea!!! They are furthering the "gameplan" as instructed.

The object of the exercise is to see how best to insidiously plant this very idea into the minds of the majority without revealing "his master's hand".

Take a good look also at the magsaysay award winners who pollute our public life to get some more idea of how the system works.

Come on CRamS ji!!!

Consider this ramachandra guha creep.

In the space of one sentence on wiki, this guha character has gone from cricket historian to well known historian. Mind you he does not have ANY formal training or qualification in history.

This distasteful scum is an artificially manufactured creature, inseminated and created by the powers that be as a dhimmi to further their vested interests and undermine the idea of the Indian nationhood.

Just like all the others that you have mentioned above. Take a look at all of them closely and you will see the same assembly line manufacturing process, differing somewhat in the minor details but foisted on us as opinion makers with ready access to media.

Look at guhas insemination and evolution as a "historian"

Padma Bhushan?? Yikes!!

[quote]Awards and recognition
His essay, "Prehistory of Community Forestry in India", was awarded the Leopold-Hidy Prize of the American Society for Environmental History for 2001.
"A Corner of a Foreign Field" was awarded the Daily Telegraph Cricket Society Book of the Year prize for 2002.
He won the R. K. Narayan Prize at the Chennai Book Fair in 2003.
The US magazine Foreign Policy named him as one of the top 100 public intellectuals in the world in May 2008.[4] In the poll that followed, Guha was placed 44th.
Padma Bhushan for 2009, India's third highest civilian award[5].

=================

Ramachander guha.

From wiki

In 2000, Guha penned an essay critiquing an article[1] written by writer and activist Arundhati Roy opposing the Narmada Dam. Roy espoused the cause of the Narmada Bachao Andolan, a cause Guha is also a supporter of. However, he questioned her expertise in the relevant field and argued that her activities and writings undermined rather than helped the cause.[2] Roy responded in an interview, saying that Guha was a cricket historian who had missed the boat.[3]

In 2009, Guha joined several other well-known historians in signing a petition that criticized the functioning of the prestigious Nehru Memorial Museum and Library (NMML) in Delhi.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Sep 2010 13:23

Shiv Sena govt in Maharashtra tried helping displaced Kashmiri Pandits by reserving some seats in colleges. No such favour for Kashmiri muslims. Maybe that's why all KPs as a community are fascists who robbed KMs of their fair share.

PrasadZ · Post by **PrasadZ** » 19 Sep 2010 13:26

"Nobody should ever miss or deny an Islamic link to terror if it should ever occur again because people who hold moderate, civilized, wise, secular and enlightened opinions such as you do would be less likely to call Islamic terror as Islamic terror. That fear is higher on this forum than the Islam provoked violence. "
Shivji, I wish the fear were unfounded. FWIW, many WKK sympathisers like me re-evaluated the situation after suffering 26/11.
IMO, the discussion of historical wrongs is tangential to understanding the modern situation. Of course, its understandable why the discussion delves into centuries ago history and many times, I find them instructive (isnt that why I lurk

). My apologies if you (or Airavat) think I derail it

"Mr PrasadZ, what do you know about the Kashmiri terrorism. The first thing these people did was ethnic cleansing of hindus. If ethnic cleansing of hindus is not religious bigotry then I am not sure what is religious bigotry."
Of course, it is religious bigotry. The answer, IMO, is to remove religion from the equation, not by introducing another.

"Kashmir valley goes its own way then with it India's pluralism will also go and a soul of India."
To be honest, I see Kashmir as geo strategically important but a pain in the butt. Of course, as an ordinary civilian, I have no idea whether thats the popular perception. take it as you will. For myself, I havent seen a convincing case for Kashmir as essential to India's pluralism and I am always surprised so much is made of their rantings

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Sep 2010 13:32

Indian Iftaar parties: is it more politics than fellowship?

Disturbing images of Iraq, Afghanistan, Gujarat, Mumbai and Srinagar keep crowding the psyche of civil societies and Muslims. Ramadan is a month of cleansing of the body and the mind by observing fast and austerity. Politicians have changed its pristine philosophy to a mechanism to exploit sentiments and creating divisiveness among Muslims, ignoring justice and governance for them, confronted with stubborn red lining, communal attacks, loss of life and property. But the party must go on.

Expensive, piping hot delicacies have their own magnetism. Though hardcore Hindutva elements fume and fret in private, the BJP's spin doctors smile at the spectacle without forgetting the core communal agenda: abrogation of Article 370, enforcement of a common civil code and a Ram temple at the demolished Babri Masjid site. Pragmatists counsel: Iftaar ki raftaar mein sab chalta hai! ‘All is permissible in the race for Iftaar!'

(The writer was professor in the HCM Rajasthan State Institute of Public Administration and is currently Member, Rajiv Gandhi Social Security Mission, Rajasthan. His email is [email protected])

The only reason i posted this article is because of the bolded part which caught my eye...
The author is a "moderate" IM who has done well in life but his article quotes the scenes in J&K as hurting muslim psyche and cites the abolition of Art 370 ( which is J&K specific onlee) as a sign of Indian communalism.

Do most IMs view the J&K issue as evil Hindus v/s innocent KMs? If so, we are screwed in future onlee if 20% ( 15 of IMs + 5 of lefties and assorted loonies) of the population is against J&K integrating better with India...

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Sep 2010 13:34

shiv wrote: Sum.. I find it amazing that you can actually sit it out through these shows. The people are selected to fight and I think it's called big fight also.

What to do, Saar? It seems to keep dragging me towards it like a forbidden fruit!!

I try changing the channels when such shows are on but cant resist a lookie for a minute or two every 15 mins!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Sep 2010 13:52

jamwal wrote:Shiv Sena govt in Maharashtra tried helping displaced Kashmiri Pandits by reserving some seats in colleges. No such favour for Kashmiri muslims. Maybe that's why all KPs as a community are fascists who robbed KMs of their fair share.

jamwal ji,

Many states in India have quotas for kashmiris. This is utilized generally by the KMs.

I agree with you. KPs are fascists who have robbed the poor innocent "sufi" KMs of everything.

The valley, omar and his inept government could certainly use some bata style management. Size 12 preferably.

Imagine!! Between India and kashmir, we have the will of the babalogs being enforced. A billion and more people can go to hell as long as yuvraj supports omar.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Sep 2010 13:58

sum wrote: The author is a "moderate" IM who has done well in life but his article quotes the scenes in J&K as hurting muslim psyche and cites the abolition of Art 370 ( which is J&K specific onlee) as a sign of Indian communalism.

Do most IMs view the J&K issue as evil Hindus v/s innocent KMs? If so, we are screwed in future onlee if 20% ( 15 of IMs + 5 of lefties and assorted loonies) of the population is against J&K integrating better with India...

I am very much sure that they do. They keep quiet so as not to lose the sarkari benevolence.

If we don't act decisively now, we will wind up with a lebanon like situation soon.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Sep 2010 14:02

chetak wrote:
Many states in India have quotas for kashmiris. This is utilized generally by the KMs.

There needs to be a separate quota for victims of ethnic cleansing.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Sep 2010 14:05

Pranav wrote:
chetak wrote:
Many states in India have quotas for kashmiris. This is utilized generally by the KMs.
There needs to be a separate quota for victims of ethnic cleansing.

Dangerous slope... Will be renamed 'Rajiv Gandhi/ J.Nehru swaabhimaan trust" and Gujarat IMs will be given 100% of the seats everywhere ( ok, few Kandhamal people also might be given some) since they faced the most brutal cleansing ever in Indian history..

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 19 Sep 2010 14:14

sum wrote:Indian Iftaar parties: is it more politics than fellowship?

Disturbing images of Iraq, Afghanistan, Gujarat, Mumbai and Srinagar keep crowding the psyche of civil societies and Muslims. Ramadan is a month of cleansing of the body and the mind by observing fast and austerity. Politicians have changed its pristine philosophy to a mechanism to exploit sentiments and creating divisiveness among Muslims, ignoring justice and governance for them, confronted with stubborn red lining, communal attacks, loss of life and property. But the party must go on.

Expensive, piping hot delicacies have their own magnetism. Though hardcore Hindutva elements fume and fret in private, the BJP's spin doctors smile at the spectacle without forgetting the core communal agenda: abrogation of Article 370, enforcement of a common civil code and a Ram temple at the demolished Babri Masjid site. Pragmatists counsel: Iftaar ki raftaar mein sab chalta hai! ‘All is permissible in the race for Iftaar!'

(The writer was professor in the HCM Rajasthan State Institute of Public Administration and is currently Member, Rajiv Gandhi Social Security Mission, Rajasthan. His email is [email protected])
The only reason i posted this article is because of the bolded part which caught my eye...
The author is a "moderate" IM who has done well in life but his article quotes the scenes in J&K as hurting muslim psyche and cites the abolition of Art 370 ( which is J&K specific onlee) as a sign of Indian communalism.

Do most IMs view the J&K issue as evil Hindus v/s innocent KMs? If so, we are screwed in future onlee if 20% ( 15 of IMs + 5 of lefties and assorted loonies) of the population is against J&K integrating better with India...

Look how he talks of Iraq & Afghanistan as well. Why should the psyche of an Indian be affected by scenes from Iraq & Afghanistan? Unless ofcourse, its the RoP inside them that is affirming itself. I can assure you it is not a one off article, social networking sites, most notably the kitab-e-chehra, have been littered with 'modern' and 'secular' IMs heaping insults upon insults on the Armed Forces & the GoI for being communal & cruel to the 'Muslim' youth. Very frustrating to see IMs use the words "your Army" for the IA. Wonder how many years before Islam starts asserting itself in India more aggressively.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Sep 2010 15:34

I wasn't aware that KMs could utilise that quota too.

Chandragupta saar,

Islam has started asserting itself aggressively for quite some time now. What do you think of events in Kashmir, Gujarat, Assam etc ? In J&K, Islamist have been screwing non-muslims since a long time and it's only a matter of time that this plan is implemented elsewhere in India. They tried it in Gujarat and succeeded to some extent in the way that all the blame was heaped upon Hindus while muslims were portrayed as the victims. Similar anti-India psy-ops is happening in J&K and succeeding quite well.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Sep 2010 16:08

jamwal wrote:
Chandragupta saar,

Islam has started asserting itself aggressively for quite some time now. What do you think of events in Kashmir, Gujarat, Assam etc ? In J&K, Islamist have been screwing non-muslims since a long time and it's only a matter of time that this plan is implemented elsewhere in India. They tried it in Gujarat and succeeded to some extent in the way that all the blame was heaped upon Hindus while muslims were portrayed as the victims. Similar anti-India psy-ops is happening in J&K and succeeding quite well.

jamwal ji,

All dhimmi undie tv like channels have squarely laid the blame on the GOI for this mess even though the state government and omar in particular are solely to blame. No effort from the GoI to put forth its POV, except to stupidly and publicly debate the withdrawal of the AFSPA. Thus they have foolishly vacated the media space and instead empowered the separatists by acts of omission.

Idiotic spokesmen like manish tiwari and tom vaddakan have desperately tried to side track issues and drag the BJP into the mix.

This has given enormous media space to the jehadis and geelani, sajjad lone and mehbooba have gleefully accepted the much unwarranted DDM coverage to pitch their jehadi agendas. Media coverage is the lifeblood of any terrorist enterprise.
Why does the GoI permit such widespread coverage of enemy activity?? Who stands to benefit?? This cannot be justified by simple right to free speech excuses.

This is a religious onslaught on the nationhood of India and the GoI and the press are actively suppressing this fact as usual, preferring to see it in terms of islamic victimhood.

Sad for the dead kids but why has no effort been made to go after the ringleaders or clamp down by taking "leaders" into preventive custody and moving them out of the valley??

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Sep 2010 16:13

CRamS wrote:
I watched this debate in its entirety. For once, India's free press at its best. I mean Vikram Chandar did an outstanding job getting every shade of opinion, from the odious Gellani and Gautam Nivukula, to supreme patriot Chandan Mitra. I have watched many a so called debates in the bastion of democracy and "free press" USA; nothing would even come close. Whenever US "debates" on issues of national security, its a self satisfying monolouge, but it can get away with such a charade given its power.

<SNIP>

The best line in the debate I thought was from Vikram Chandra. When the Uber RAPE Sajjad Lone dismissed the opinions of Shias, Pandits etc who are not interested in "azadi", Vikram Chandra shot back saying why should India with a billion+ care 2 hoots about what a gang of Sunni Kashmiri Muslim pervert want . Therein lies the solution.

CramS sahab,

Evem I watched that show late last night (IST). The fact that Vikram Chandra was moderating the show helped a bit.

But one thing that struck me most was the vehement opposition to Kashmiris and their azaadi - If channels like NDTV, which are like WKK personified, air such views, then Kashmiri Wahabis have completely lost the plot. Now, it is very much possible that signals came from powers-that-be to dicredit the latest 'peaceful demonstration' and that is how the script of this show was written but then it means that someone has taken an opposing veiw of development in Kasmir.

I really liked the way VC questioned Gautam Navlakha about his comments on Pannun Kashmir and them being communal. And why? Because they want IA to have free hand in Kashmir.

The anger from the Pundit participants in the show (and there were many) clearly highlighted the rift in state and dicredited the moderate face of these Sunni wannabe Wahabis.

The more Islam is brought to fore in these discussions, lesser appeal will these idiots have. Because suddenly, a human rights issue and self determination becomes a religious issue. And IMO, the tiger of Islamism has been mounted and cannot be got off now. Otherwise, how ill these idiots sustain these peaceful demonstrations?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 19 Sep 2010 17:05

PrasadZ wrote:

"Kashmir valley goes its own way then with it India's pluralism will also go and a soul of India."
To be honest, I see Kashmir as geo strategically important but a pain in the butt. Of course, as an ordinary civilian, I have no idea whether thats the popular perception. take it as you will. For myself, I havent seen a convincing case for Kashmir as essential to India's pluralism and I am always surprised so much is made of their rantings

Prasadz Kindly do not harbor such apprehension's.India's pluralism never finished in a century and even after Partition. Even if we loose Kashmir to the radical's don't worry we will be pluralistic onlee.Only way to stop us from being pluralistic is to balkanize us into various parts as many in the world would like to do.