Indian Military Aviation

[nachiket]

Right.
I said that the airframe and engine ( "same thirsty and underpowered M-53s" ) will be unchanged. I am not sure which radar will be fitted to our M2000 UPG. Could it be a ESA ?

K

The radar will probably be the RDY fitted on the M2k-5s. It is a mech-scan radar. I don't know of any French ESA radar unless we get the RBE-2 itself, which is extremely unlikely.

[karan_mc]

deleted.

[Cain Marko]

Right.
I said that the airframe and engine ( "same thirsty and underpowered M-53s" ) will be unchanged. I am not sure which radar will be fitted to our M2000 UPG. Could it be a ESA ?

MICA may be a part of the deal but I doubt if we get the Scalp. If we do then o boy we are great !!
K

Kersi, expect some change to the airframe - added lifespan, wingspan strengthening and set up for 9 hps. Currently afaik, the IAF M2ks are wired for 6 hps. LIke Nachiket pointed out, the radar will probly be the RDY-2 suitably upgraded although a PESA RBE might just make it too.

All in all, the upg. will focus on making the Vajra a better weapons delivery platform than anything else imho. Using the strengths of the bird in terms of exceptional uptimes and dependability, they probly will use it to deliver some exotic/expensive stuff (half of it under wraps prolly) on high value assets.

Air superiority, interception, point defense, escort, CAP will not be primary roles. These are probably better handled by upgraded fulcrums, bisons/LCA, MKI. JMT.

CM.

[P Chitkara]

Any idea, how much time will AMCA development cycle is expected to take from the time it officially starts? Looks like it will be positioned in the JSF segment. If that is what is being targeted, there will be an array of systems and technologies that will have to be developed that can fit into the AMCA. Some of it is going to come from FGFA but rest (stuff we cannot miniaturize enough to fit in AMCA for example) will have to be developed regardless.

It will have to be very well planned and coordinated endeavor for it to arrive on time.

Can anyone list out key areas or challenges that will need attention?

[Bala Vignesh]

Kersi, expect some change to the airframe - added lifespan, wingspan strengthening and set up for 9 hps. Currently afaik, the IAF M2ks are wired for 6 hps. LIke Nachiket pointed out, the radar will probly be the RDY-2 suitably upgraded although a PESA RBE might just make it too.

All in all, the upg. will focus on making the Vajra a better weapons delivery platform than anything else imho. Using the strengths of the bird in terms of exceptional uptimes and dependability, they probly will use it to deliver some exotic/expensive stuff (half of it under wraps prolly) on high value assets.

Air superiority, interception, point defense, escort, CAP will not be primary roles. These are probably better handled by upgraded fulcrums, bisons/LCA, MKI. JMT.

CM.

Cain Sir,
As it is, the M2k is not called in to perform these roles generally.. They are generally reserved for carrying out long range PGM attack on High Value targets.. My guess is the upgrade is to enhance its survivability in the modern battlefield... And of course to sharpen its talon and teeth for a better attack...
JMO

[Juggi G]

Column : India’s Antiquated Forces

Column : India’s Antiquated Forces
Deba R Mohanty
Posted: Monday, Oct 18, 2010 at 2250 hrs IST

Chief of the Indian Air Force ACM PV Naik has gone on record recently to admit that half of the Indian aerospace fighter arsenal was obsolete. The defence minister, AK Antony, subsequently tried to play down the condition by urging that the Indian defence industry must be encouraged by the state to improve the degree of self-reliance and fight obsolescence in this fast-paced technological environment. If this was not enough, ACM Naik has warned the country that the security situation in and around India was like a ‘volcano’, which necessitated an extremely high level of preparedness by the air force, in particular, and the entire armed forces, in general. If unstable security conditions as well as strategic global aspirations necessitate India to build a formidable military capability, ‘obsolescence’ is one problem that should not have affected the armed forces as badly as it has today.

Let’s see how prepared the Indian armed forces are for any situation. Not only the Indian aerospace but also land and naval arsenals are fast becoming obsolete. Consider this: IAF has a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons, yet is barely 30 squadrons strong now, and aims to have a 45 squadron strength in the near future, if former ACM Fali Major is to be believed. If four to six squadrons of MiGs are to be phased out in time and the 126 MMRCA and LCAs are not replenished in time, India is likely to manage with about 26 fighter squadrons for the next six to seven years! Even acquisitions of Su-30s would not be able to compensate for some time and the joint development of the fifth generation fighter (with Russia) can only happen by the early 2020s, if everything goes according to plan. Transport, trainers, heavy lifts, medium and heavy choppers, mid-air refuellers and others are also in short supply, if the desirable level of Indian aerospace power is taken into consideration. The situation is worrisome.

The land-based arsenal looks no better. Former Army Chief VP Malik’s famous admission—we will fight with whatever we have—is not passé. General VK Singh’s immediate predecessor General Deepak Kapoor has gone on record saying that 80% of the land equipment is night-blind. Apart from night-blindness, the land forces are in short supply practically on every front—from infantry and weaponry to larger land systems. Heavy tanks may be an exception; India lacks light and medium tanks, and varieties of artilleries, the latter being a hostage to ‘Bofors’ syndrome. Artillery and air wing have been worst affected as tender after tender has been cancelled in recent years, thanks primarily to non-military reasons (read, allegations and counter allegations by vendors and so-called technical reasons mentioned by the MoD). The Navy seems a little better off among the services, yet its projected plans to have an aircraft carrier fleet, sufficient numbers of submarines, frigates, destroyers and other smaller warships are also in short supply, although to a lesser degree in comparison to its counterparts. Most worrying is a scenario in which even if the MoD is able to acquire 90% of the systems that it envisages for the planned long-term military modernisation programme, ‘obsolescence’ could still be more than 40%—10+% larger than any ideal arsenal should possess.

Obsolescence and numeric deficits in the Indian arsenal are a result of a host of factors, spanning from defence planning to procurement processes. The blame game is easy within defence establishments as any stakeholder can accuse the other without much accountability. However, the worst sufferer is the end-user whose modernisation programme is hit badly, which leads to further obsolescence. Speak to Any Military Leader—while they may Put on a Brave Face in Public, They are Quite Worried!

India has been fighting technological obsolescence for several decades as it is not only capital intensive but also involves consistent scientific and industrial endeavours. That’s why you have only five-odd aero-engine manufacturers who have held hostage the fighter components of aerospace power in the world. That’s why you see only a handful of countries devoting scientific and financial resources towards aerospace and unmanned systems. Where does India stand—its indigenous Kaveri aero-engine programme now looks towards either GE-414 or EJ-200; its aerospace engineering programmes attract less and less talent, its futuristic programmes are not adequately funded (DRDO budget is $2 billion). The private sector is kept at an arm’s length since they are branded ‘strategic’ and hence have no place for private enterprise! This is despite the fact that Godrej & Boyce, Tata Power, Larsen & Toubro, and other companies have supplied critical components to many Indian strategic military programmes. Long planning processes coupled with delays have also contributed significantly to technological obsolescence. As a former IAF officer put it, by the time LCA is ready, it may well become a trainer instead of a fighter! If LCA takes decades, acquisitions do not happen in two or three years either. The 126 MMRCA deal serves as a case in point.

ACM Naik and AK Antony are true to their words—the former lays out the problem and the latter a possible answer. Betwixt the two lies the great Indian tragedy of a lack of strategic vision and political courage, rigid institutional mechanisms, complex procurement procedures and virtually no accountability in the defence sector.

The Author is a Senior Fellow in Security Studies at the Observer Research Foundation. These are his personal views.

[Juggi G]

Chak De Phatte !

The IAF’s (N-) Strike Mirages - Sharpening the Teeth

After protracted discussions and negotiations, upgradation of the Indian Air Forces (IAF) current inventory of fifty-one Mirage 2000H/TH is imminent, the total project cost estimated to be around US $2.2-billion. The first two IAF Mirages will be upgraded in France, while the balance forty-seven will be equipped with state-of-the-art avionics, radar, mission computers, glass cockpits, Helmet-Mounted Displays (HMD), and Electronic Warfare suites, jam-proof communication with datalinks. Integration of Weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems and MICA Active-Radar Homing (ARH) and Infra-Red (IR) Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) will then be cleared.

The Project Cost of US $2.2 Billion has Raised many Eyebrows yet, In Context of Sensitive Operational Roles Performed by IAF Mirage 2000H/TH Platforms, it is Well Understandable. From around the mid-1980s India strived hard to configure a selective contingent of nuclear-capable strike aircraft that, being dual capable platforms are deployed without any fanfare and in exactly the same fashion as all the other conventional strike aircraft in the IAF’s inventory. In their nuclear strike role the IAF fighters would be assigned the role of delivering a punishing “second strike” on any potential rogue nuclear aggressor and also be capable of delivering a “pre-emptive strike” on enemy nuclear arsenals or on their Communication, Command & Control (C3) nodes, to disable them from launching a “first strike” on Indian forces or homeland. Moreover as key military and industrial targets and air bases are situated within a radius of 500-km from Indian air bases of Jodhpur, Jamnagar and Bhuj, the operational range and capability of IAF Mirage 2000H/THs and Jaguars permit interdiction of every key Pakistani target. Hypothetically it was anticipated that nuclear strike operations need to be conducted against Pakistan at the later stages of a conventional conflict, in response to a desperate Pakistani nuclear strike just prior to its military and political collapse. It was likely that the Pakistani air defence net would be all but decimated by that point allowing the IAF fighters full operational freedom of action in its nuclear strike operations.

The IAF started practicing nuclear toss-bombing techniques as early as in the late 1980s that reportedly commenced with MiG-23BNs. The IAF at some point of time evaluated the Anglo-French Jaguar as a potential candidate for nuclear strike operations as these rugged twin-engine strike fighters qualify for high-value missions of nuclear delivery. Moreover the Jaguar was designed from the outset for tactical strike missions and its airframe, engines and Flight Control System (FCS) was optimised for high performance at low altitudes and, at one point of time, was meant to defeat the formidable Soviet air defence network. However despite such positive attributes, according to one respectable defence analyst, the Jaguars were found inadequate for the first-generation of Indian nuclear weapons that included 15-Kt nuclear gravity bombs even though the novel undercarriage design “rides” the fighter higher than an average fighter of its size. Unfortunately, the Jaguars were inherently incapable of conducting nap-of-the-earth penetration of enemy airspace in absence of terrain following/obstacle avoidance radar.

The IAF, however, soon discovered although initially designed for proficiency in air defence role, Mirage 2000H/TH platforms could make a mark as a true multi-role fighter, and successfully prosecute the surface strike securing all the advantages of delta wing platform including high fuel storage, low drag, increased manoeuvrability, fewer control surfaces and reduced Radar Cross-Section (RCS) while minimising most of the instabilities that arise when the aircraft carries significant external stores during low-altitude missions.

The FBW controls in particular provided the Mirage 2000H/TH fleet remarkable manoeuvrability at low altitudes. The Mirage 2000H/THs are capable of flying fast and low, deliver ordnance on targets with a high degree of accuracy and capable of taking on opposing fighters on the way back.

The Mirage 2000H/TH fuselage centreline and two inboard wing pylons are each capable of carrying 1800-kg loads, capable for carriage of nuclear ordnances. The Mirage 2000N in French Armee de l’Air servie usually carry the nuclear-tipped ASMP in the centreline pylon along with two drop-tanks under the inboard wing and Magic-2 close-combat missiles (CCM) under the outer wing pylons. Targeting pods and Electronic Counter Measures/Electronic Support Measures (ECM/ESM) suites are carried in addition for penetration of hostile airspace. The ASMP missile is slated to be replaced by the newer ASMP-A.

It has long been suspected, but never confirmed that the IAF judiciously converted some of its Mirage 2000H/TH platforms for the nuclear strike role thus initiating operational deployment of nuclear deterrence. These fighter types provide the more flexible arm of India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) created on 6 January 2003. As per policy no particular squadron was earmarked to carry out a possible nuclear retaliatory strike, but dedicated strike platforms were mixed with air defence oriented ones. As the IAF started converting the Mirage 2000, the standard livery generally associated with air defence variants briefly changed to “camouflage” body paint. It was once rumoured (albeit denied by IAF authorities) that Dassault Electronique/Thomson-CSF Antilope 5 terrain-following radar as on French Mirage 2000N nuclear strike platforms permitting automatic flight down to 61-m and altitude-contrast updating of navigation system had been installed on selective IAF Mirage 2000H/TH along with reinforced radomes and twin Inertial Navigation System (INS). ( Gurus True that or )

For self-protection, the comprehensive Remora ESM/ECM suite backs the formidable defensive weaponry of Magic 2 CCMs and Super 530D BVRAAMs. All these multiple attributes enable the IAF Mirage 2000 “strike packages” to ingress hostile airspace if felt necessary with minimum number of “supporting platforms” for escort and sweep missions.

An important integration has been the Israeli Litening airborne infrared targeting and navigation pod. Designed to improve both day and night attack capabilities, Litening presents pilots with real-time, Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) and CCD imagery in combination of laser designator and laser spot designator and is thus effective in both diurnal and nocturnal operations even in adverse weather conditions. With Litening 2 pods entering IAF service in numbers, air enhancement in strike capability is assured.

Thus although unconfirmed reports indicate an upgrade programme similar to the Mirage 2000-9, the exact nature of upgrade remains a closely guarded secret. The operational roles, avionics and armaments of IAF Mirage 2000H/TH platforms remain open to wide range of speculations, all aircrafts being “based” at the centrally located Maharajpur Air Force Station (AFS) at Gwalior. The exact nature of upgraded equipment will only be apparent (if ever) in the time to come.

Source : Magazine Scan


Shorty Legs problem solved to the extent possible.

[Juggi G]

No Defence Agreements During Obama's Visit

No Defence Agreements During Obama's Visit
Ajai Shukla
New Delhi October 18, 2010, 0:34 IST

Officials coordinating next month’s visit to India by US President Barack Obama have been told to rule out a big-ticket signing ceremony for two defence safeguards agreements that Washington has pressed for.

Senior defence ministry sources told Business Standard that Defence Minister A K Antony, during his visit to Washington last month, Bluntly Told US Defence Secretary Robert Gates that India would not Sign the Agreements, which Washington calls the “Foundation” for Transferring High-Tech Communications Equipment to India.

The two agreements are a communications interoperability and security memorandum of agreement (CISMOA) and basic exchange and cooperation agreement for geo-spatial cooperation (BECA).

In addition, Antony also conveyed India’s unwillingness to sign a logistics support agreement, or LSA, which would allow either country’s military units to plug into the military logistics infrastructure of the other anywhere in the world, with accounting on a book-debit basis.

Remarked a defence ministry official, who was present at the Washington meetings: “People that believe Mr Antony is a mild-mannered man, who does not take strong positions, should have seen the clarity with which he told the US delegation that India sees no benefits in signing these agreements.”

Advising Antony not to sign the CISMOA and BECA is India’s military. The Indian Air Force believes that these seemingly innocuous agreements — binding India to safeguard communication equipment and codes that the US military also uses — would ensure that US-sourced equipment with the IAF, such as the C-130J Super Hercules and the C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft, remains interoperable with US forces.

“The US is keen to operate with us,” explained a senior IAF air marshall. “We see no benefits in being interoperable with them. So, why should we be hustled into signing these agreements?”

The Pentagon has been arguing that, without the CISMOA and BECA, India would get Less than Cutting-Edge Electronics on the Systems that it Buys from the US. During a visit to New Delhi in January, Gates had remarked, “[These Agreements] are Preponderantly in India’s Benefit, because they give High-Tech Systems Additional High-Tech Capabilities… are Enablers, if you will, to the Very Highest Quality Equipment.”

But on Thursday, IAF head Air Chief Marshall P V Naik rejected that logic, insisting that the absence of CISMOA and BECA “will not make any substantial difference to our operational capabilities”.

Now, Leaked Contract documents appear to support the air chief’s viewpoint. A draft contract for the six C-130J Super Hercules transporters that India bought from Lockheed Martin (posted on Indian military blog Livefist and verified as correct by Lockheed Martin sources) reveals that just five items have been denied to India as a result of not signing CISMOA and BECA.

The draft contract notes that the five items “are deleted/changed from the C-130J India Air Force (sic) configuration at this time. These items may be added when CISMOA is signed between USG (US government) and government of India.”

These items are all communications interfaces between the aircraft and friendly forces on the ground. Since the C-130J is customised for special forces operations — especially air-transporting commandos to a landing area that has been secured by friendly ground forces — the aircraft needs secure communications links between airborne and ground forces, including an identification system to ensure that an enemy radio cannot lure the C-130J to an unsecured landing ground through a fake message.

The IAF believes it can make do with commercially available electronics fitted in the C-130J as alternatives to the US Air Force safeguarded systems.

[shukla]

The IAF’s (N-) Strike Mirages - Sharpening the Teeth

Juggi buddy, can you please attach the original link along with articles?

[Juggi G]

IAF's C-130J-30 Special Forces Super Hercules

General Characteristics
Crew : 3 (Two Pilots, and One Loadmaster)
Capacity :-
128 Passengers
92 Airborne Troops
8 Pallets
97 Litter Patients with 2 Medical personnel
2–3 HMMWVs or an M113 Armored Personnel Carrier

The Famous In-Flight Refueling da Danda

[Kartik]

Thanks for that article on the Mirage-2000H/TH JuggiG !

Now we hear that both Airbus and Boeing are not really sure whether they want to participate in the IAF's newly re-bid tanker contest. If both will not participate, I wonder what happens ? Since a sole vendor contract may require the entire process to be scrapped, the IAF may need to eventually have to go in for more Il-78 Midas tankers, but after a long delay. This whole big jhamela is thanks to the MoF's refusal to agree to the A-330 MRTT purchase.

As for the IAI offering of a 767-200ER based tanker, this is based on the 767-200ER that they flew recently for the Colombian Air Force(which also bought some ex-IsAF Kfirs)..I wonder if they're offering re-builds from existing commercial/freighter 767s or new builds ?

Anyway, the best platform out of the list is clearly the A-330 but looks like we need to be ready for some more setbacks in this deal.

By Neelam Mathews [email protected]
NEW DELHI

Airbus Military and Boeing remain undecided whether they will participate in India’s program to buy six midair refuelers, which has a proposal deadline of Dec. 15.

“On the basis of our [past] experience, we are thoroughly analyzing and reviewing the situation,” says Barbara Kracht, VP, Communications, Airbus Military.

Boeing also has received the request for proposals (RFP) from the Indian government, “but not made a decision as yet to participate,” according to Vivek Lall, head of Boeing Defense, Space and Security in India. Should it decide to participate, Boeing could offer a variant of the KC-767 Tanker Transport.

India’s indecision led to the cancellation of a previous contract to buy A330-based refuelers from Airbus on Dec. 30 of last year (Aerospace DAILY, Jan. 12). The program was rebid in September 2010.

Given the much larger scope of the ongoing tanker replacement program in the U.S., an analyst says it is likely that Airbus and Boeing’s interest in six refuelers for India could be waning.

The other contenders for India’s six Multi Role Tanker Transport include Russia with the Il-78 and Israel Aerospace Industries, which recently began flight trials of the single Boeing 767-200ER that it converted to a multi-mission tanker transport configuration for the Colombian air force.

The new refueler needs a variety of interfaces and a true multirole capability, which the A330-200 can provide, says Peter Scoffham, vice president of defense capability marketing for Airbus Military. Airbus says the A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport can be equipped with a combination of the Aerial Refueling Boom System for receptacle-equipped receiver aircraft, Cobham 905E/805E under-wing refueling pods for probe-equipped receiver aircraft, and a Universal Aerial Refueling Receptacle System Installation for self-refueling.

There is a concern in India that because price negotiations began last year with Airbus Military for the A330 after the Il-78 was rejected for having an incomplete bid, prices are now known to competitors, a military official says.

link

[nachiket]

As it is, the M2k is not called in to perform these roles generally.. They are generally reserved for carrying out long range PGM attack on High Value targets.. My guess is the upgrade is to enhance its survivability in the modern battlefield... And of course to sharpen its talon and teeth for a better attack...
JMO

Bala, the M2Ks were jury rigged to perform those roles during Kargil because we had no other fighters capable of performing them (barring the Jags perhaps). When the M2ks were bought they were intended to be the IAF's primary Air-superiority fighters (the only ones at the time capable of matching the PAF's F-16s). Ground Attack/Precision bombing are secondary roles for the M2k. But as you say, that may change now since the IAF will have a fair number of upgraded Mig-29s and Su-30s along with BVR capable Bisons.

[Aditya G]

.... However despite such positive attributes, according to one respectable defence analyst, the Jaguars were found inadequate for the first-generation of Indian nuclear weapons that included 15-Kt nuclear gravity bombs even though the novel undercarriage design “rides” the fighter higher than an average fighter of its size. .....

What is the source of 15 KT figure?

[Kartik]

While the matter of the IAF’s 51 Mirage-2000 H/TH’s that will be upgraded is up, we might as well look at and discuss (rationally only) another stop-gap solution that might be attractive for the short term at least, to rapidly allow the IAF to build up 3 squadrons of multi-role jets that it has had more than 2 decades of experience operating.

With the UAE seriously looking to buy a new 4th generation fighter like the Rafale or Super Hornet, there is a very high likelihood that their 62 Mirage-2000-9s (30 brand new Mirage-2000-9s and 32 Mirage-2000s that were upgraded to -9 standards) will be up for sale whenever they finalise their new purchase.

As per a Greek poster by the name of Aspis (one of the most level-headed and clear-thinking Greek posters on Keypub forums), a Greek defence magazine is stating that there is momentum building up within Greek defence circles to buy these Mirages instead of upgrading its oldest F-16 Block 30s.

The figure being thrown around is $25 million per Mirage-2000-9 and the total deal includes 62 jets, associated spares, maintenance and support equipment and weapons, all for 1.6 billion Euros (2.24 billion $).

Some of these (the 30 new build Mirage-2000-9s that UAE purchased) are the youngest Mirages in the world and have definitely got plenty of airframe hours. The 32 Mirage-2000 older ones were refurbished and then upgraded to -9 standards also less than a decade ago.

While the IAF will upgrade its 51 Mirage-2000H/TH to what is nearly certainly -9 or -5Mk2 standard, it will take time before the entire fleet is in operation. If the contract is signed when Sarkozy is here, then the first 2 are to be upgraded in France over a period of more than a year (beginning 2011 and ending sometime in 2012). Dassault being the main integrator will first source the upgrade equipment from the different vendors (much of it is costlier as it hasn’t been in serial production for a while now), integrate it and then flight test it to see that everything works well in unison. Then HAL will start upgrading the remaining at the rate of ~12 per year after it trains its technicians and engineers at Dassault facilities and gets the required tools and jigs from them. At the beginning, my guess is that they will upgrade only 5-6 over a year’s period (I’m sure of some hiccup) and after that ramp up to 12 or so per year. That might mean that the last upgraded Mirage-2000-5H will re-enter service in 2017 or so, not any earlier.

If we do purchase these 62 UAEAF Mirage-2000-9’s, they can be quickly dual tasked for the Strategic Force Command’s nuclear strike role, as well as for regular air defence and strike duties for the IAF.

My reason for suggesting this is that the current nuclear role is performed by the Mirage-2000 units, and its pilots will be the ones most experienced in nuclear mission practice compared to even Su-30MKI pilots who might have also started training for the nuclear strike role. Tactics, methods of weapon delivery (toss-bombing techniques) and mission profiles would’ve been elaborately practiced by these pilots and perfected on the Mirage. I can bet that they’re the most proficient in the IAF in this role, having been tasked with that duty for more than 2 decades now. This existing cadre can train more pilots in this role on the existing Mirage platform quicker than any other aircraft IMO, which is why I feel that the best bet is to invest in more Mirages. They are safe (attrition wise), capable, reliable and importantly, much cheaper to operate than the Su-30MKIs. I for one feel that with 270 MKIs, the IAF is already quite top heavy and needs more single engined fighters to make up the numbers rather than just buying more and more Su-30MKIs for each and every role. Plus, HAL will be hard pressed to deliver any faster on the MKIs which are scheduled to be delivered till 2017 and the only option will be direct imports from Irkut. If the MRCA is a twin-engined jet then it will raise the IAF’s operational costs even further, so for the short term and for the SFC’s nuclear strike role, these Mirages will serve the purpose till 2025-30 at least.

These would be available quite quickly assuming the UAE actually signs up for something next year and then gets its first jets in 36 months time. As soon as the UAE starts retiring them in batches, these can be flown over to the HAL BRD that will be upgrading the 49 Mirage-2000H/THs and quickly brought to a common standard, communications and IFF wise. After a quick and light refurbish, HAL can install our own IFF, communications sets and then these can be handed over to a newly raised Mirage-2000 unit whose staff can comprise of the more experienced hands from the existing 3 Mirage-2000 H/TH squadrons. After familiarization with the equipment that may differ from the other 51 H/THs, these squadrons will very quickly be up and fully operational. AND, these can be shared by both the IAF and the SFC, rather than dedicating 2 squadrons of sparsely available fighters to the nuclear role, which is IMO, a waste of money and resources.

Even if the thought of purchasing 62 second-hand Mirage-2000-9s is not attractive to others because the IAF is spending more than $12 billion on the MRCAs, surely the 12 Qatari Mirage-2000-5s are still an attractive proposition. We know that the Qataris recently evaluated the Super Hornet and are likely to look for a new fighter soon. The IAF could approach them for their 12 Mirages and make an offer similar to what the UAE is asking for its Mirages. the first time around, the MoD had offered $350 million for these 12 Mirages and their weapons and the Qataris were demanding around $600 million back then. Now, with a likely UAE sale saturating the market and reducing their options for possible customers, they may be more amenable.

Buy them, recondition them quickly and use them as 2 dedicated flights for the SFC. Solely tasked for the nuclear strike role, with 24/7 availability of at least 2-4 Mirages and crews. Later on, when the MRCA is mature and the IAF has built up its squadron numbers to nearly 40, they can look for more numbers of dedicated MRCAs for the SFC and these Mirages can rejoin the IAF and be re-distributed among the existing 3 squadrons and serve out the rest of its service life.

[Cain Marko]

^ Plus 1.

I have advocated a purchase of the UAE M2ks AND the Qatari birds for some time. These are good birds - the Qatari ones and some of the UAE a/c are quite new and have ample life left in them.

This would be a very good way to immediately arrest the downfall in numbers. My guess is that the French/US would probably make good on at least 20 a/c in 2-3 years, which would allow the UAE to part with as many M2ks. So, if nicely planned, the IAF could gain a solid 2 sqds of Mirage 2000-5/9s in 2 years. They have the infrastructure already in place and induction should be relatively quick. Also somewhat diversifies the fleet.


JMT.

CM.

[Indranil]

^^^ Make that plus 2.

Infact, this is the only decision where I don't understand why we are not showing worthy attention.

[Kartik]

^^^ Make that plus 2.

Infact, this is the only decision where I don't understand why we are not showing worthy attention.

indeed. A nation that is quite practical in this matter is Chile. They cannot afford more than 10 new build Block 50s, so to build up F-16 numbers, they simply purchased surplus refurbished MLU'ed Dutch F-16s. Got them for cheap along with spares and support for fixed period, and that allowed them to build up F-16 numbers quickly and take care of the next decade.

Not advocating these types of purchases just for the heck of it, but the Mirage-2000s on the market should be quickly bought up. they're the cheapest and fastest way to bring up numbers while getting a jet that can tackle even the latest F-16 Block 52s that the PAF is getting and handle the SFC's nuclear strike requirement as well. Anyway, after 2025 there will be the PAK-FA and MRCA to bulk up so if they need to be retired, they'd have served their purpose well.

[Surya]

guys - most people here would agree to go for the M2Ks from UAE\Qatar - heck many in the IAF want to.

From Krishnamurthy's days they have been trying to get addnl M2Ks

obviously something is preventing it coming to fruition

[Vivek K]

make that plus 3

[Dmurphy]

obviously something is preventing it coming to fruition

May be they're being asked by babus "why do you want additional M2Ks when we're procuring so many much more advanced MMRCAs? Afterall we did forgo M2Ks in lieu of MMRCAs.

[Viv S]

The figure being thrown around is $25 million per Mirage-2000-9 and the total deal includes 62 jets, associated spares, maintenance and support equipment and weapons, all for 1.6 billion Euros (2.24 billion $).

Some of these (the 30 new build Mirage-2000-9s that UAE purchased) are the youngest Mirages in the world and have definitely got plenty of airframe hours. The 32 Mirage-2000 older ones were refurbished and then upgraded to -9 standards also less than a decade ago.

Sounds like a bargain given that we're paying roughly the same amount just to upgrade our 51 Mirages.

[Kartik]

obviously something is preventing it coming to fruition

May be they're being asked by babus "why do you want additional M2Ks when we're procuring so many much more advanced MMRCAs? Afterall we did forgo M2Ks in lieu of MMRCAs.

We had to do that because the MMRCA competition's timeframe was such that no new-build Mirages would be available since the line was idle and had no orders and had to be closed. This is a different case- order them to get 3-4 squadrons quickly and make up numbers. With the worrying grounding of MiG-27s due to crashes, the option would be to possibly re-engine them and that is something that will cost us millions of $ anyway. If that comes up in the future, it would've possibly been a better option to buy these and solve 2 problems at one go.

[Kartik]

The figure being thrown around is $25 million per Mirage-2000-9 and the total deal includes 62 jets, associated spares, maintenance and support equipment and weapons, all for 1.6 billion Euros (2.24 billion $).

Some of these (the 30 new build Mirage-2000-9s that UAE purchased) are the youngest Mirages in the world and have definitely got plenty of airframe hours. The 32 Mirage-2000 older ones were refurbished and then upgraded to -9 standards also less than a decade ago.

Sounds like a bargain given that we're paying roughly the same amount just to upgrade our 51 Mirages.

But keep in mind that the weapons that UAE will sell have already used up a portion of their shelf-lives and their value has depreciated. What the IAF will get with the 51 Mirages upgraded are new weapons that will serve out the rest of these Mirages' lives.

[Cain Marko]

Well one obvious problem that could prevent such a procurement is AFAIK the UAE Rafale/Shornet deal is not a sure thing. IOWs, are those birds really available or is it just another story?

Frankly, at least those Qatari M2ks should be bought, even if the price is a little steep. Screw the weapons (if that is what makes them really exhorbitant) although I have no idea what the Qataris will do with them.

Another reason for not looking at the UAE deal imho (if it is available in the first place) is the timeline. When will the UAE make a decision? When will they get their first birds? When wil the IAF receive the first M2ks? Optimistically, if the UAE signs a deal in 2011, the new birds arrive by 2014, they get rid of the M2ks by 2015-16. In such a case, where is the attraction for India? There is a good chance that the MRCA and the LCA will be coming in numbers by then. Expect a sqd or two of MRCA, plus 2 sqds of LCA-I, and a large number of upgraded Vajras already in service by 2015.

The urgent need is by 2012. Post 2015, such acquisitions seem to offer few rewards.
CM.

[nachiket]

Another reason for not looking at the UAE deal imho (if it is available in the first place) is the timeline. When will the UAE make a decision? When will they get their first birds? When wil the IAF receive the first M2ks? Optimistically, if the UAE signs a deal in 2011, the new birds arrive by 2014, they get rid of the M2ks by 2015-16. In such a case, where is the attraction for India? There is a good chance that the MRCA and the LCA will be coming in numbers by then. Expect a sqd or two of MRCA, plus 2 sqds of LCA-I, and a large number of upgraded Vajras already in service by 2015.

The urgent need is by 2012. Post 2015, such acquisitions seem to offer few rewards.
CM.

Another way to look at this would be that if we make them an offer for the M2ks, maybe the sheiks can be persuaded to take a decision sooner. But India has to show a firm interest. Only problem is with the LCA + MRCA + extra MKIs + Mig-29 upgrade deal + the expensive M2K upgrade deal, the IAF may not have any money left over for these M2ks. Sad situation really. As Kartik said, they are the ideal candidates for filling the shoes of the Mig-27s which seem to spend more and more time grounded these days. I don't see a re-engining of the Mig-27s happening either. If it was going to happen we should have seen some noise about it by now.

[Dmurphy]

We had to do that because the MMRCA competition's timeframe was such that no new-build Mirages would be available since the line was idle and had no orders and had to be closed.

Kartik, AFAIR, the French had offered us the entire assembly line of the M2Ks with the freedom to market and sell them if we wanted to - in case we went in for 126 M2Ks. But the IAF let it be, citing much more advanced fighters on offer if they were prepared to wait a little longer.

[Singha]

M2ks major issue is with a heavy conventional payload it doesnt have the range to match the MKI. perhaps in such a2g loadouts its combat radius is half of the MKI, and the MKI has no drag penalty/risk of drop tanks to dump if facing opposing fighters. MKI can also carry more self protection aam's with the same bombload. and being a 2-seater has the luxury of a dedicated guy to lase targets or guide weapons and direct the ECM. there is just no contest for the MKIs and Strike eagles of the world in the DPSA conventional role.

we cannot afford a couple billion $$ of inventory just for a nuclear strike role. we are not khan with money to burn in keeping B-36 and B-52 bombers airborne with nukular weapons round the clock.

its a very paki-specific kind of plane imo for a2g ; and effective for A2a but so will be the Tejas and MRCA by 2015.

[andy B]

M2ks major issue is with a heavy conventional payload it doesnt have the range to match the MKI. perhaps in such a2g loadouts its combat radius is half of the MKI, and the MKI has no drag penalty/risk of drop tanks to dump if facing opposing fighters. MKI can also carry more self protection aam's with the same bombload. and being a 2-seater has the luxury of a dedicated guy to lase targets or guide weapons and direct the ECM. there is just no contest for the MKIs and Strike eagles of the world in the DPSA conventional role.

we cannot afford a couple billion $$ of inventory just for a nuclear strike role. we are not khan with money to burn in keeping B-36 and B-52 bombers airborne with nukular weapons round the clock.

its a very paki-specific kind of plane imo for a2g ; and effective for A2a but so will be the Tejas and MRCA by 2015.

GD saan fully agree.

CM, Karthi, Nachiket et all - I reckon the M2Ks would have been a perfect solution had the option been excercised in late 90s. Sine the 2000s with the big spurt in eco development combined with the view of India's majorly expanding role in IOR and also increasing Chini threat perception the M2ks would be far fetched to match up with their escorts if deployed in those regions IMVHO.

Having said that given the high level of sophistication that these Mirages would come with combined with our own Vajras upgraded they would still provide some very useful strike assets for specialised strike roles read delivery vessels for long range precisson strike munitions. Morever the Mirages have proved to be very good high in the mountains

Question is how would their operational role be affected by the limited range is say deployed in the North East and if strikes were to be executed in the TAR region?

So far as pakis are concerned if the said UAE/Qatar Mirages were to be procurred and pressed into service they would create a situation where in case of a conflict a flight of Mirages would be able to independently penetrate deep with minimal escort support and really hurt where it counts. Bar the Blk 52 Solahs there would be little that would stand in their way.

JMT

[Kartik]

We had to do that because the MMRCA competition's timeframe was such that no new-build Mirages would be available since the line was idle and had no orders and had to be closed.

Kartik, AFAIR, the French had offered us the entire assembly line of the M2Ks with the freedom to market and sell them if we wanted to - in case we went in for 126 M2Ks. But the IAF let it be, citing much more advanced fighters on offer if they were prepared to wait a little longer.

yes yes indeed the entire assembly linen was to be transferred to India if we went in for 126 Mirages. But it was not the IAF's decision to wait longer- it was the Congress govt. that decided to open up the competition and that effectively meant a delay that basically made the Dassault offer void since they didn't want to keep the line idle any longer.

[Prem]

obviously something is preventing it coming to fruition

May be they're being asked by babus "why do you want additional M2Ks when we're procuring so many much more advanced MMRCAs? Afterall we did forgo M2Ks in lieu of MMRCAs.

There was rumor that Q Royal family dont like paying commision twice !!

[shukla]

Despite bitter experience first time around, Airbus plans to bid again for IAF mid-air refuellers!
Airbus Military mulls plan to bag multi-billion dollar India deal
The Hindu reports..

India is seeking to buy six more air-to-air refueller to augment its fleet of six Russian IL-78 tankers and the European consortium Airbus Military said it would offer its new Multi-role Transport Tanker aircraft A330 MRTT “at competitive prices.”

The European tanker would come with Aerial Refueling Boom System (ARBS), a technology which only the Americans have so far. The ARBS system enables refueling even in adverse weather and day or night. It uses the stereoscopic vision and laser based infrared lighting system - a distinct advantage for India as it is set to acquire 126 advanced fighters. “The Russian refuellers with IAF don’t have this capability,” Airbus officials said.

“We are offering the new A330 MRTT as it provides the best value for money,” said Peter Scoffham, Vice President, Defence Capability Marketing for Airbus Military. “No other aircraft comes close to A300 MRTT as aircrafts designed in 1970’s cannot be compared with those being built now,” Scoffham told PTI at the Airbus Military facility in Getafe, a metropolitan area in southern zone of Spanish city of Madrid.

“The new technology on offer to India bridges the gap between strategic and tactical tanker,” he said, adding “it would be “at competitive prices“. India has so far relied on the Russian technology in acquiring its first air tankers, but the defence planners are now insisting that the IAF be armed with the most updated technology. India has issued Fresh Request for Proposals (RFP) for six in-flight refuelling aircraft, reviving the tender worth around Rs 6,000 crore that was cancelled in January.

Besides the Airbus, the American Boeing and Russians are in the contention for one of the biggest military tenders to be floated by India.Even as Scoffham refused to give details of the new RFP, he said “India has emerged as one of the largest defence market in the world”, and like all other major defence industries, “Airbus Military is looking to India to sell its products which are the best in its categories“. A300 MRTT has comprehensive AAR system, including both Hose and Drogue and the ARBS. Following its last-minute failure to ink the lucrative deal earlier this year, Airbus Military, a business unit of Airbus responsible for all military transport aircraft, said the civil and military certification for the A330 MRTT strengthens its case.

Australia's third Airbus Military A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport takes off on its first flight on Oct. 12, 2010, in Brisbane, Australia. (Airbus Military)

Other related news..
Airbus Military flies third tanker for Australian Air Force

Airbus Military's third A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport for the Royal Australian Air Force made its first flight last week, EADS North America announced Monday. The plane flew for four hours on Oct. 12 from Brisbane, Australia, reaching 41,000 feet and performing trials of test equipment, handling qualities, performance and systems. Two A330 MRTTs for the United Kingdom's Royal Air Force also are flying. Airbus Military is scheduled to start delivering tankers to Australia this year.

EADS North America would assemble its tanker in Mobile, Ala. It said Qantas Engineering's tanker-transport conversion of the Australian planes in Brisbane underscores Airbus' "ability to successfully transfer A330 MRTT production and outfitting around the world." EADS North America said it is "the only competitor offering the Air Force a tanker that is already flying, refueling and fully certified today."

[Willy]

When they can spend billions on the CJ heavy lifts why cant the MOF spend 1.9 Bill for the Airbus tankers?

[jai]

he figure being thrown around is $25 million per Mirage-2000-9 and the total deal includes 62 jets, associated spares, maintenance and support equipment and weapons, all for 1.6 billion Euros (2.24 billion $).

Great thought and makes sense, considering that such sales would interest the Pakis as much - may be worth it just to deny them the capability and for all the other advantages mentioned by Kartik;maybe we should offer some more money to persuade the sheikhs to part with them much sooner as the IAF needs quality replacements as of the last decade !!

but seems unlikely IMO considering the record of MOD Babus.

IMO Other SFO contenders could be SU 34 or even surplus stock TU 22M3 MKI'ed to Indian spec equipment.

[nrshah]

When they can spend billions on the CJ heavy lifts why cant the MOF spend 1.9 Bill for the Airbus tankers?

That makes me wonder what specialized equipment does a cargo aircraft carry as compared to refuelers that makes price almost 1.5 times of refuelers?

[abhik]

M2ks major issue is with a heavy conventional payload it doesnt have the range to match the MKI. perhaps in such a2g loadouts its combat radius is half of the MKI, and the MKI has no drag penalty/risk of drop tanks to dump if facing opposing fighters. MKI can also carry more self protection aam's with the same bombload. and being a 2-seater has the luxury of a dedicated guy to lase targets or guide weapons and direct the ECM. there is just no contest for the MKIs and Strike eagles of the world in the DPSA conventional role.

we cannot afford a couple billion $$ of inventory just for a nuclear strike role. we are not khan with money to burn in keeping B-36 and B-52 bombers airborne with nukular weapons round the clock.

its a very paki-specific kind of plane imo for a2g ; and effective for A2a but so will be the Tejas and MRCA by 2015.

While we deride the M2k's capabilities, theres also the issue of the Jags. I still don't understand why we are trying to upgrade what is basically a (pimped out) 2.5 generation aircraft. I'd rather have a light mrca like the gripen (and any additional M2k) replace the Jag's and Mig-27's role while have the LCAs do the same with the Mig-21s. It will also reduce the number or fighters in service some thing the ACM has talked about recently . Its better to have a smaller but more capable force than have a plethora of less capable aircraft. Also we must remember that the IAF has problems not only with aircraft numbers but also human resources i.e. pilots.

[Lalmohan]

^^^ the new jag configuration offers a phenomenal low level day/night/ most weathers deep strike platform with significant range, without a revealing mapping radar. still very viable

[Juggi G]

A-330 MRTT

Once Bitten, Airbus Stresses Economy In Indian Tanker Re-Bid
Livefist

Once Bitten, Airbus Stresses Economy In Indian Tanker Re-Bid

Indian Wire Service PTI has a Report today quoting Peter Scoffham, Vice President, Defence Capability Marketing for Airbus Military as saying, "We are offering the new A330 MRTT as it provides the best value for money.No other aircraft comes close to A330 MRTT as aircrafts designed in 1970's cannot be compared with those being built now."

In September 2009, the Indian Finance Ministry had rejected the Indian Air Force/MoD selection of the A330 MRTT, calling it way too expensive. Reports at the time suggested that the final pricetag on the A330 MRTT package for six aircraft was Rs 8,000-crore ($1.8-billion), as against the IL-78M package that came with a pricetag of Rs 4,800-crore ($1.08-billion). The budget for the procurement was reportedly pegged at Rs 5,000-crore ($1.12-billion). The Finance Ministry wouldn't hear of the anything over that figure.

In the re-tender, the budget for the procurement has been hiked to Rs 6,000-crore ($1.3-billion). The competition is likely to be fought between Airbus and the Boeing 767 tanker. Though the latter hasn't officially committed to fielding its tanker in the competition, it is likely that it will. The IL-78M will compete, but the IAF doesn't want it. OverWhelming Serviceability and Support Problems Continue to dog the IL-76 Platform, a situation that was partly responsible for the IAF choosing not to exercise a follow-on order of six more IL-78Ms, and instead float a fresh tender in 2006.

So
Final Pricetag on the A330 MRTT Package for Six aircraft was $1.80 Billion.
Comes out to $300 Million per Aircraft

Final Pricetag on the IL-78M Package for Six aircraft was $1.08 Billion.
Comes out to $180 Million per Aircraft

Old Procurement Budget for Six aircraft was $1.12 Billion.

New Procurement Budget for Six aircraft is $1.30 Billion.


A330 MRTT = $300 Million
IL-78M = $180 Million

[Rahul M]

guys - most people here would agree to go for the M2Ks from UAE\Qatar - heck many in the IAF want to.

From Krishnamurthy's days they have been trying to get addnl M2Ks

obviously something is preventing it coming to fruition

you mean Krishnaswamy ?

[SriSri]

Uff yeh nakhrein!

Airbus, Boeing Remain Undecided on Indian Air Force Mid Air Refueling Aircraft Contest

[srai]

A-330 MRTT...
Once Bitten, Airbus Stresses Economy In Indian Tanker Re-Bid
Livefist

Once Bitten, Airbus Stresses Economy In Indian Tanker Re-Bid
...

In September 2009, the Indian Finance Ministry had rejected the Indian Air Force/MoD selection of the A330 MRTT, calling it way too expensive. Reports at the time suggested that the final pricetag on the A330 MRTT package for six aircraft was Rs 8,000-crore ($1.8-billion), as against the IL-78M package that came with a pricetag of Rs 4,800-crore ($1.08-billion). The budget for the procurement was reportedly pegged at Rs 5,000-crore ($1.12-billion). The Finance Ministry wouldn't hear of the anything over that figure.

In the re-tender, the budget for the procurement has been hiked to Rs 6,000-crore ($1.3-billion). The competition is likely to be fought between Airbus and the Boeing 767 tanker. Though the latter hasn't officially committed to fielding its tanker in the competition, it is likely that it will. The IL-78M will compete, but the IAF doesn't want it. OverWhelming Serviceability and Support Problems Continue to dog the IL-76 Platform, a situation that was partly responsible for the IAF choosing not to exercise a follow-on order of six more IL-78Ms, and instead float a fresh tender in 2006.

So
Final Pricetag on the A330 MRTT Package for Six aircraft was $1.80 Billion.
Comes out to $300 Million per Aircraft

Final Pricetag on the IL-78M Package for Six aircraft was $1.08 Billion.
Comes out to $180 Million per Aircraft

Old Procurement Budget for Six aircraft was $1.12 Billion.

New Procurement Budget for Six aircraft is $1.30 Billion.


A330 MRTT = $300 Million
IL-78M = $180 Million

Why was the first tender only budgeted $1.12 billion? How did the IAF come up with this budget? IMO, it seems like IAF (or whoever) just looked at the 6 in-service IL-78M price tag ($1.08 billion) and estimated the $1.12 billion budget. So MoF cannot be completely blamed for refusing since it was like 60% over budget. Now the new procurement budget ($1.30 billion) has not gone up that much ... which is still quite below $1.8 billion quote for the Airbus 330 MRTT. I doubt they can submit a new bid at 30% less, unless the IAF has changed the rules in the new RFP by including lifecycle costs and minimum capability requirements.