Indian Army: News & Discussion

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geeth
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by geeth »

At ths same time, the MoD said that they have in writing that 1950 is final and gen singh has said that it is the end of the debate. OTOH, Gen Singh says that 'now' consider 1951, which leagally holds true. So, this has to be resolved in law and is a matter of procedure.


Dear Saar!

Since when have the babus in MoD started asking for confirmation and concurrence of the officer cadre about their DoB? From available information, his YoB as per the Service records and matriculation certificate is 1951. I cannot forsee a situation in which DoB plays a role in promotion. All I know is your performance (represented by the ACR) and your seniority is what matters. You cannot replace DoB with date of Joining the service for the consideration of senoirity. In that respect the MoD has to clarify how the COAS has benefited by accepting his YoB as 1950.

By asking the General to accept in writing that his DoB is something other than what is shown in the service record, the MoD or the Military Secretary or both may have acted with some malafide intend. Otherwise, why would they indulge in something as specific as this?

May be they did not want him to be the COAS in the first place. They must have feared that, if they don't make him COAS, it would have ended in an ugly fight, with MoD in the losing side. So they may have thought to fix him and ensure that his successor at least is someone of their choice.

There are lots of arms lobbies, who take special interest in the affairs of MoD as well. This also may have contributed to this ugly fight.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Rupesh »

Bikram Singh seems like another Ramdas
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

To hell with the succession plan. There should be no iron cast plan. Whoever proves through seniority and competence to be the best for the situation at hand, should be promoted.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

The excellent and in-depth details of Nathu La incident from someone who was present there.

This has been taken from the website of CLAWS - Center for Land Warfare Studies (http://www.claws.in/index.php?action=de ... 56&u_id=26).

Written by: Maj Gen Sheru Thapliyal, SM (Retd), commanded the Nathu La Brigade and an Infantry Division in the Ladakh Sector

Article:
The Nathu La skirmish: when Chinese were given a bloody nose

After the debacle of 1962, nothing could have enhanced the self esteem of the Indian Army than the mauling that was given to the Chinese at Nathu La in Sikkim on 11th September 1967 and at Chola on 1st October 1967. It must have come as a rude shock to the Chinese Army and also its political leadership. And by a happy coincidence, the Indian Army leadership which got the better of this eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation was the same that went on to create Bangladesh in 1971. Maj Gen Sagat Singh was GOC Mountain Division in Sikkim, Lt Gen Jagjit Aurora was the Corps Commander and Sam Manekshaw was the Eastern Army Commander.

I too served in Nathu La. After finishing my young officer’s course, it was on 21 July 1967 that I reported to my Unit, a mule pack artillery regiment in Sikkim. Those days young officers were made to have their professional mailing by sending them on long-range patrols (LRP) for area familiarisation, take part in khad race to increase their stamina and sending them to remote observations ports on Sikkim-Tibet border for a month. Having done my share of LRPs and having taken part in the khad race, I was sent to the main Sabu La observation post on the Sikkim-Tibet Border. This observation post is about a kilometre south-west of Nathu La. It dominates Nathu La by virtue of taking on higher ground and commands an excellent view of the pass as also the Chinese defense on the feature known as North shoulder. There were two observation posts at Sabu La and had a good old radio set 62 and PRC-10 and of course line communications to the guns deployed in the rear.

Nathu La at 14200 feet is an important pass on the Tibet-Sikkim border through which passes the old Gangtok-Yatung-Lhasa Trade Route. Although the Sikkim-Tibet boundary is well defined by the Anglo-Chinese Convention of 17 March 1890, the Chinese were not comfortable with Sikkim being an Indian protectorate with the deployment of the Indian Army at that time. During the 1965 War between India and Pakistan, the Chinese gave an ultimatum to India to vacate both Nathu La and Jelep La passes on the Sikkim-Tibet border. For some strange reason, the Mountain Division, under whose jurisdiction Jelep La was at that time, vacated the pass. It remains under Chinese possession till date. However, Lt. Gen Sagat Singh, true to form, refused to vacate Nathu La. Incidentally it is at Nathu La where Chinese and Indian forces are deployed barely thirty yards apart, closest anywhere on the 4000 km Sino-Indian border and the border remains undemacrated. Chinese hold the northern shoulder of the pass while Indian Army holds the southern shoulder. Two dominating features south and north of Nathu La namely Sebu La and Camel’s back were held by the Indians. Artillery observation post officers deployed on these two features have an excellent observation into Chinese depth areas whereas from Northern shoulder, Chinese have very little observations into Indian depth areas. This factor proved crucial in the clash that ensued. At the time of the clash, 2 Grenadiers was holding Nathu La. This battalion was under the command of Lt Col (Later Brigadier) Rai Singh. The battalion was under the Mountain Brigade being commanded by Brig MMS Bakshi, MVC.

The daily routine at Nathu La used to start with patrolling by both sides along the perceived border which almost always resulted in arguments. The only one on the Chinese side who could converse in broken English was the Political Commissar who could be recognised by a red patch on his cap. Sentries of both the forces used to stand barely one meter apart in the centre of the Pass which is marked by Nehru Stone, commemorating Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru’s trek to Bhutan through Nathu La and Chumbi Valley in 1959. Argument between the two sides soon changed to pushing and shoving and on 6 September 1967 a scuffle took place in which Political Commissar fell down and broke his spectacles. These incidents only added to the excitement. I developed excellent rapport with Capt Dagar of 2 Grenadiers and a few days before the clash we had gone to Gangtok together on “liberty” to see a movie. Little did I know that within a week, Dagar would be a martyr.

In order to de-escalate the situation it was decided by the Indian military hierarchy to lay a wire in the centre of the Pass from Nathu La to Sebu La to demarcate the perceived border. This task was to be carried out by the jawans of 70 Field Company of Engineers assisted by a company of 18 Rajput deployed at Yak La pass further north of Nathu La. The wire laying was to commence at first light on the fateful morning of 11 September 1967.

That morning dawned bright and sunny unlike the normal foggy days. The engineers and jawans started erecting long iron pickets from Nathu La to Sebu La along the perceived border while 2 Grenadiers and Artillery Observation Post Officers at Sebu La and Camel’s Back were on alert. Immediately the Chinese Political Commissar, with a section of Infantry came to the centre of the Pass where Lt. Col Rai Singh, CO 2 Grenadiers was standing with his commando platoon. The Commissar asked Lt Col Rai Singh to stop laying the wire. Orders to the Indian Army were clear. They were not to blink. An argument started which soon built up into a scuffle. In the ensuing melee, the commissar got roughed up. Thereafter the Chinese went up back to their bunkers and engineers resumed laying the wire.

Within a few minutes of this, a whistle was heard on the Chinese side followed by murderous medium machine gun fire from north shoulder. The pass is completely devoid of cover and the jawans of 70 Field Company and 18 Rajput were caught in the open and suffered heavy casualties which included Col Rai Singh who was wounded. He was awarded MVC later. Two brave officers – Capt Dagar of 2 Grenadiers and Major Harbhajan Singh of 18 Rajput rallied a few troops and tried to assault the Chinese MMG but both died a heroic death. They were posthumously awarded Vir Chakra and MVC respectively. 2 Grenadier opened small arms fire on North shoulder but it was not very effective. Within the first ten minutes, there were nearly seventy dead and scores wounded lying in the open on the pass. Within half an hour, Chinese artillery opened up on the pass as well as in the depth areas but it was mostly prophylactic fire due to lack of observation and failed to do much damage. Meanwhile we as artillery observation post officers asked for artillery fire, permission for which came a little later. Because of excellent domination and observation from Sebu La and Camel’s back, artillery fire was most effective and most of the Chinese bunkers on North shoulder and in depth were completely destroyed and Chinese suffered very heavy casualties which by their own estimates were over 400. The artillery duel thereafter carried on day and night. For the next three days, the Chinese were taught a lesson. On 14 September, Chinese threatened use of Air Force if shelling did not stop. By then the lesson had been driven home and an uneasy ceasefire came about. The Chinese, true to form, had pulled over dead bodies to their side of the perceived border at night and accused us of violating the border. Dead bodies were exchanged on 15 September at which time: Sam Manekshaw, Aurora and Sagat were present on the Pass.

Every battle has its own share of heroism, faint heartedness, drama and humour. The Nathu La skirmish was no exception. 2 Grenadiers were initially shaken up due to the loss of Capt Dagar and injury to their CO but found their man of the moment in Lieutenant Atar Singh who went round from trench to trench to rally the troops and was later promoted as Captain on the spot. On the lighter side was one artillery observation post officer, my colleague at Sebu La whose radio set was damaged due to shelling and he was out of communication with his guns. He rightly decided to go back to the base at Sherathang in the depth to get another radio set. While he was on his way back, Commander Artillery Brigade was coming up. He stopped the young captain, accused him of running away from the battle and sent him back after reducing him to his substantive rank of a second lieutenant. Casualties could not be evacuated for three days and nights as any move to do so invited a hail of Chinese bullets. Some wounded may well have succumbed to cold and rain. There were awards for bravery as also court martial for cowardice. However, what stood out was the steadfastness of the commanders and bravery of the jawans and junior officers. Indians refused to blink and the mighty Chinese dragon was made to look ordinary.

The situation again flared up twenty days later when on 1 October 1967 a face-off between India and China took place at Cho La, another pass on the Sikkim-Tibet border a few kilometers north of Nathu La. Despite initial casualties, 7/11 GR and 10 JAK RIF stood firm and forced the Chinese to withdraw nearly three kilometers away to a feature named Kam Barracks where they remain deployed till date. Cho La Pass is firmly in Indian hands. Indian Army had got better of the Chinese yet again.

No wonder, Sino-Indian border has remained peaceful ever since to the extent that today Chinese soldiers come and ask their Indian counterparts at Nathu La for cigarettes, rum and tea, mail is exchanged twice in a week in a hut constructed specially for this purpose and border personnel meeting takes place there twice a year. It was my privilege to command the Nathu La Brigade many years later and conduct the first border personnel meeting at Nathu La is 1995
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Rupesh wrote:Bikram Singh seems like another Ramdas

Another rouge or another magsaysay award winner? :)
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

geeth wrote:
At ths same time, the MoD said that they have in writing that 1950 is final and gen singh has said that it is the end of the debate. OTOH, Gen Singh says that 'now' consider 1951, which leagally holds true. So, this has to be resolved in law and is a matter of procedure.


Dear Saar!

Since when have the babus in MoD started asking for confirmation and concurrence of the officer cadre about their DoB? From available information, his YoB as per the Service records and matriculation certificate is 1951. I cannot forsee a situation in which DoB plays a role in promotion. All I know is your performance (represented by the ACR) and your seniority is what matters. You cannot replace DoB with date of Joining the service for the consideration of senoirity. In that respect the MoD has to clarify how the COAS has benefited by accepting his YoB as 1950.

By asking the General to accept in writing that his DoB is something other than what is shown in the service record, the MoD or the Military Secretary or both may have acted with some malafide intend. Otherwise, why would they indulge in something as specific as this?

May be they did not want him to be the COAS in the first place. They must have feared that, if they don't make him COAS, it would have ended in an ugly fight, with MoD in the losing side. So they may have thought to fix him and ensure that his successor at least is someone of their choice.

There are lots of arms lobbies, who take special interest in the affairs of MoD as well. This also may have contributed to this ugly fight.

Posted without prejudice :)


Another POV.

the word is also going around is that 39 ACRs, Army List, the I Card and a plethora of other docs all have the 1950 dob and that the Chief gave an undertaking before his appointment that he will not raise the issue of his dob. Though the issue of dob of an individual is strictly not an AHQ issue but the AHQ paid to get the legal advice of the retired Chief Justices.

Another POV........ a bit more adventurous :)

Very simple --- Are the 40 odd ACRs rendered on Gen VK Singh during his long and illustrious career , showing under his own signature, his date of birth as 1950 ?

The General has signed them at various stages of 'growing up', 'maturing', etc . If they are all '50', the matter is deemed to be settled.

If now the General wishes to say, courtesy Court orders, that it is and always has been 1951, then, there is a case for trying the General for having falsified, under his signatures, the age recorded in his 40 odd ACRs., if the recording has always been 1950.

We have had a Lt Gen tried by court martial. Should now a full General be tried for falsification ?
There is always the option of resignation or the case to be made out for the withdrawl of the pleasure of the President.

Any which way you looked at it, the goose is cooked.

Why drag the Army's good name through the muck when on the verge of retirement??
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

rohitvats wrote:The excellent and in-depth details of Nathu La incident from someone who was present there.

This has been taken from the website of CLAWS - Center for Land Warfare Studies (http://www.claws.in/index.php?action=de ... 56&u_id=26).

Written by: Maj Gen Sheru Thapliyal, SM (Retd), commanded the Nathu La Brigade and an Infantry Division in the Ladakh Sector

Article:
... During the 1965 War between India and Pakistan, the Chinese gave an ultimatum to India to vacate both Nathu La and Jelep La passes on the Sikkim-Tibet border. For some strange reason, the Mountain Division, under whose jurisdiction Jelep La was at that time, vacated the pass. It remains under Chinese possession till date. However, Lt. Gen Sagat Singh, true to form, refused to vacate Nathu La. ....
Chinese pressure in 1965 has not been brought out before in our literature ... AFAIK.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by nelson »

^^ AFAIK there is no entry of an officer's date of birth in a CR, only dates of commission and seniority.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by anjan »

nelson wrote:^^ AFAIK there is no entry of an officer's date of birth in a CR, only dates of commission and seniority.
The ACR has a DOB field along with other dates you mentioned.

Ultimately offrs I've spoken to think highly of him. So I guess I'm content to see him fight. The Army's name gets dragged through the mud for a variety of cooked up reasons half a dozen times a week anyway. I doubt the general public cares either ways. It's far too esoteric for most people. The IAS hates the army and doesn't need a reason. So how does it matter?

Would be nice if some of the service chiefs showed the same spine fighting for issues of rank and pay.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

@Chetak:

1. I dont think it is the General who is dragging the good name of the army through anything. It is the government. If the Chief fights it out, and is vindicated, it is the government which gets egg on its face.


2. Withdrawal of the pleasure of the President could happen to a Navy chief. It cannot ever happen to an Army chief. The Babus have spent the best part of 60 years raising bogeys of coup, etc, while knowing it is fully false, to get their own way. Even though it is not true, there is sufficient residual fear created in the political class not to attempt something that can end up getting them shot in the face.

Besides, people tend to forget, that the sacking of Admiral Bhagwat caused the NDA government to collapse, when J. Jayalalitha withdrew support of her MP's over the issue. Its not such a simple thing to sack a service chief, no matter what the Babu's might like to imagine.

3. The armed forces are being emasculated at a time of great danger. Both lizard and TFTAs are flexing muscle. The time is right for the Chief and the Government to quickly settle this matter, and move on to more pressing things.

4. If previous record is anything to go by, this Chief is a fighter. He will not let his men believe that the Chief of a Million strong and proud Indian army is a liar, thanks to the machinations of some babus and a few crooked military officers who should never have risen beyond the rank of colonel. Already, all who have stood before him (Avadesh Prakash, Rath, etc), have ended up court martialled and disgraced. Who will be next?
Last edited by ASPuar on 15 Sep 2011 11:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Speaking of cooked gooses, in fine, Avadesh Prakash is going to be made to forever regret the day that he decided to take panga with VKS on behalf of Gen Deepak Kapoor. If he escapes from all this hoo-har without jail time, I will eat my hat.

Already, an inquiry has been completed to fix Avadesh Prakash under the OSA. Punishment ranges from three to fourteen years jail time. Are you surprised some people are working overtime to get rid of the General?

http://twocircles.net/2011aug24/more_tr ... etary.html
More trouble for army's former military secretary


India News
By IANS,
24 Aug 2011

New Delhi : The Indian Army's former military secretary Lt. Gen. (retd) Avadesh Prakash may soon face charges under the Official Secrets Act for allegedly removing confidential documents out of the army headquarters.

According to defence ministry sources, Prakash may be charge-sheeted and a formal decision on whether to prosecute him through a court martial on these charges would be taken soon.

A court of inquiry in the charges against him under the act has been completed, a senior army official said here Tuesday.

Prakash, who retired from service in January 2010, is already facing a court martial that convened in Guwahati in June this year in connection with the transfer of a land adjacent to Sukna military station.

The present charges relate to documents on present army chief General V.K. Singh's age getting into the public domain in recent months.

General V.K. Singh was then Eastern Army Commander based in Kolkata when he had initiated investigations in the Sukna land transfer episode for which Prakash is being court-martialled now.

Controversy is raging if Gen. Singh's date of birth is May 10, 1950, as entered in documents held by the army's military secretary's branch that handles promotions and postings, or May 10, 1951, as maintained by the army's adjutant general's branch that deals with pay and perks and is also the custodian of official documents of personnel.

Gen. Singh has claimed he was born in 1951 by presenting documents such as his school leaving certificate to the defence ministry and has sought changing his date of birth in all official records.

But the defence ministry has rejected this demand and has ordered maintenance of status quo on the age issue.

The adjutant branch has sought clarification from the defence ministry on the legal validity of its July 22 order to maintain 1950 as the army chief's year of birth.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110824/j ... 417251.jsp

Paper leak cloud on retired general


SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, Aug. 23:

An army court of inquiry has found evidence that the former military secretary and the senior-most lieutenant general to face a court martial, Avadhesh Prakash, leaked confidential papers from army headquarters.

Army headquarters is considering charging Avadhesh Prakash, now retired, with violating the Official Secrets Act, one of the gravest of offences in the armed forces.

Avadhesh Prakash is currently facing a General Court Martial headed by Lt General Philip Campose and comprising six major generals in Guwahati.

He is facing charges on four counts of using his position to influence officers to transfer land adjacent to the Sukna Military Station in North Bengal to Siliguri-based realtor Dilip Agarwal.

As the military secretary — a principal staff officer to the army chief — Prakash was in charge of postings and promotions of officers.

Prakash is understood to have told the Court Martial that his mental faculties were not what they used to be. His doctors are likely to be quizzed to find out if Prakash’s plea that he has amnesia is borne out by medical examinations.

A court martial has already punished Lt General P K Rath, former deputy chief of army staff-designate, in the same case. Rath was the commander of the Sukna-headquartered 33 corps. Prakash, who was the military secretary in army headquarters before he retired last year, is alleged to have coaxed Rath and others to give the realtor a no-objection certificate. Prakash was close to the last army chief, General Deepak Kapoor.

The attempt to transfer land illegally was unearthed by a court of inquiry in the Eastern Command when the current chief, General V.K. Singh, was the eastern army commander in Fort William, Calcutta. That court of inquiry said that the attempt to transfer the land was made overriding the strategic concerns in the Siliguri “corridor”, the narrow strip of “chicken neck” through which the Northeast is connected to the rest of the country.

Though Prakash is retired, he may still be asked to face charges of omission and commission during his tenure in army headquarters. It was during Prakash’s tenure as military secretary that the row over the age of General V.K. Singh came to a head.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Now, he seems to be crying that his mental faculties have faded. Odd how his faculties have faded so quickly after retirement!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

An interesting point of view. And an insight into how much damage the bureaucracy manages to cause to India's security policy, simply by its very existence. This is an article by Shishir Gupta, an HT Editor. Hes been on the beat for a long time, and knows a bit about whats happening. It seems that he has done some research into the goings on in the Date of Birth Issue.

http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/inside- ... uth-block/
‘Us versus them’ game at South Block

Shishir Gupta
Deputy Executive Editor

It is called the “us versus them” play and the game is unique to South Block on Raisina Hill. Played periodically for dominance, it has "hard working, honest and patriotic" bureaucrats on one side and "golf playing, whiskey swilling and pliable" officers of the armed forces on the other.

The net result is that the bureaucrat, self-declared protector of national interest, always wins with a knock-out. Both sides use skulduggery on the other, but the bureaucrat wins as he convinces the political masters that the country could do with a less number of generals as the last full-scale war was only fought 40 years ago.

The game is currently in play even though the last heavy weight encounter ended up with military getting knocked down by the Defence Ministry babus 12 years ago with Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, Chief of Naval Staff, being shown the door by the Atal Bihari Vajpayee led NDA government on December 30, 1998 on grounds of defiance. Of course, it is another matter that the NDA government lost its majority after 13 months when AIADMK led by J Jayalalitha pulled out demanding of all the things reinstatement of Bhagwat.

Fortunately, in the current game between Army Chief General V K Singh and Defence Secretary Shashi Kant Sharma over the former’s date of birth, matters have not come to such a pass. Sharma, in fact, is trying to redeem the situation that had taken a turn for the worse during his predecessor Pradeep Kumar’s tenure. The wise man of UPA II is still at the job and chances of recovery look good albeit the spin-masters of Defence Ministry are on an over drive with so-called classified personnel papers virtually lying in the corridors for anyone to pick up. This is all too familiar for those who covered the Bhagwat exit and the ensuing fratricidal war within South Block like me.

The 78,000 strong Navy is still to fully recover from the humiliation meted out to its chief at the behest of one babu called Ajit Kumar, then favourite of Defence Minister George Fernandes. It is now for the Manmohan Singh government to assess what would be the present state of the million-strong Indian Army, whose chief is now being accused of being a liar on the basis of inspired leaks from the mandarins.

The basic contention of Defence Ministry is that General Singh had accepted is date of birth as May 10, 1950 instead of now claimed 1951 before he became chief in writing and any change now would upset the succession plan at the Army Headquarters. Honest due diligence would reveal the following:

*January 21, 2008: Military Secretary (MS) under then Chief Deepak Kapoor made it clear to Gen Singh, then Ambala Corps Commander, that he would have to accept 1950 as his date of birth. The letter from Lt General P R Gangadharan said: “We are constrained to maintain your official date of birth as 10 May 1950 and the same may kindly reflected in your documents.”

*January 24: Gen Singh after talking to Gen Kapoor sent out a telegram to stating: “Whatever decision taken in organisation interest is acceptable to me.” But Kapoor and Gangadharan were not happy and wanted the reply to be specific, clearly showing the pressure mounted on Gen Singh.

*January 24: The telegram from the MS branch states that the response (from Gen Singh) was “not in conformity with response asked for” in the Jan 21 letter. “Request forward acknowledgement and confirm acceptance of date of birth as given in Jan 21 letter….If reply not received by 10.00 hours on January 25, 2008 action deemed appropriate will be taken,” the signal said. This clearly shows that Kapoor was threatening disciplinary action against Singh if he would not accept 1950 as his age. Anyone with working knowledge of Indian Army would tell you that the officer does not have the civilian option to go to Defence Minister when under such pressure. But the matter does not end here

*January 30: Gen Singh replies to Gen Gangadharan. Among other things, he states: ” In view of the above constraint and in accordance with the discussions of date, I will mention the date of birth as directed.” It is acceptance of a directive from a superior officer. But the headquarters is still not satisfied and continues coercion.

*January 31, 2008: Gen Singh is left with no options and must toe the line. He sends a two line telegram. One of them states: “Date as mentioned is accepted.”

In light of the above and given the force discipline, not one officer worth his salt would have stood up to Army Chief as this would have amounted to insubordination. The second point of succession is fallacious as convention is that the senior most army commander takes over as the next Army Chief and even in this there have been exceptions.

Just as the NDA government was stuck on making Vice Admiral Harinder Singh as Deputy Naval Chief in opposition to Bhagwat, the UPA is now stuck on making Lt General Bikram Singh as the next Army Chief as if there was a denominational basis to succession. Lest it be accused of playing politics with the military brass, it is time that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Pranab Mukherjee and AK Antony took a step back from staring at the abyss. The sagacious political leadership should not get drawn into the “us versus them” game.

One must remember that Gen Singh was awarded Yudh Seva Medal (1990), Ati Vishisht Seva Medal (2006) and Param Vashisht Seva Medal (2009) by President of India and the mentioned date of birth is 1951. He has been promoted from Brigadier (1996) to Lt General (2005) on 1951 date of birth. His driving licence, matriculation certificate, passport, election commission card all say 1951. Rather than dividing the Army any further, the PM should call al his wise men and get due diligence done on the personal record of General Singh. The statutory complaint filed by General Singh before Antony should be seen as an opportunity and not as an affront by the Manmohan Singh government.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by geeth »

^^^

I still do not understand how the DoB can affect promotion prospects. Anyway, if the ACRs mention 1950 as YOB, equally or more documents give 1951 as YoB.

I have also read reports which says the General had indeed represented about the discrepancy in the past about his DoB. What action was followed is not known.

There could also be some link between the Court Martial of Lt.Gen Avadhesh Prakash and the Chief's retirement. To have a pliable chief could be helpful in getting a favourable/less harsh punishment.

In any case, to argue that the 'succession plan' will be affected is frivolous..If the plan is going to be affected, make another plan..what is the problem? Also, you know the problem is there for the past many years. Instead of solving it, you can't wish it away.

IMO, the Chief should take up the matter to a logical conclusion one way or other. Let the Babus mess up with the Army. They have so much hatred towards the military, now they have made even the police ranks above the Army.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

geeth wrote:
At ths same time, the MoD said that they have in writing that 1950 is final and gen singh has said that it is the end of the debate. OTOH, Gen Singh says that 'now' consider 1951, which leagally holds true. So, this has to be resolved in law and is a matter of procedure.


Dear Saar!

Since when have the babus in MoD started asking for confirmation and concurrence of the officer cadre about their DoB? From available information, his YoB as per the Service records and matriculation certificate is 1951. I cannot forsee a situation in which DoB plays a role in promotion. All I know is your performance (represented by the ACR) and your seniority is what matters. You cannot replace DoB with date of Joining the service for the consideration of senoirity. In that respect the MoD has to clarify how the COAS has benefited by accepting his YoB as 1950.

By asking the General to accept in writing that his DoB is something other than what is shown in the service record, the MoD or the Military Secretary or both may have acted with some malafide intend. Otherwise, why would they indulge in something as specific as this?
+1 .


The documents mentioned in General's case are what are taken as final. If there was any doubt at any point of time the same should have been inquired into.Why was it not done.

DOB/YOB in ACR has no merit as proof of Birth date. Absolutely rubbish. Only date which matters is what is recorded in Service Book. If that is in dispute it requires to be looked into as per procedure outlined in previous post. His seniority would also not be affected. If minimum required years of service remaining is one of the criteria ( as I believe it is) then he would still be eligible even if his DOB is 1951 instead of 1950. So asking him to confirm his DOB as 1950 does not serve any purpose except to confound the matter by the then Military Secretary who closed the matter without inquiry, I think he happens to be M.Gen. Awadhesh Prakash.

As for Officers in succession plan waiting to be General , have no role to play till one of them becomes General. And what good such a succession plan would be if based on wrong records and confusion.

About Army's succession plan, is it formalised in any Law or service rules. I think Cabinet committee on Appointments and CCS would take a decision from a panel of names. Such appointments do not go merely by seniority but by competence as well.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by geeth »

Code: Select all

About Army's succession plan, is it formalised in any Law or service rules. I think Cabinet committee on Appointments and CCS would take a decision from a panel of names. Such appointments do not go merely by seniority but by competence as well.
[/b]

Not only that, the succession plan for the Army should originate from the Army itself, to be vetted by MoD and CCS and not the other way round. If the babus say they know better (they had been saying and believing so since the time of HM Patel), then it is high time they are shown their place. After all, it is the Army which is going to fight the war. Chances of success are low, but still worth trying.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

The babucracy should be chucked out of MoD, and a Railways Board/Foreign Ministry type system should be followed where officers of the services run the ministry.

The amount of harm done by the bureaucracy to national security through infighting, machinations, delay of projects and obstructionism is breathtaking.

But not just that. Defence officers are not free of blame either. The defence services mindset needs to be revamped also. The three services can barely see beyond their noses as far as interservice cooperation is concerned. Senior officers seem to be magnificently divorced from the frustrations and aspirations of junior ones. Pay, parity, and pension matters seem to be handled by people who know NOTHING at all about them.

Half the goofs on pay and parity matters were not the creation of any babu. They were inflicted by a service officers on their own brethren! Even the LtCol rank pay disaster was caused by Army HQ sending equivalencies in the new scale for Lt Colonels, at deputy secretary level pay scales, when their real pay was higher than that of a director. Its a total disaster as far as service personnel are concerned, in terms of pay and parity, and MUCH of the blame can be laid squarely at the door of the brass of the three services.

Feudal culture, ji hazoori, and lack of job security unlike in civil sector has caused sycophancy, lack of democracy, degradation of officers, and even corruption to creep in. Who is to blame?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Avik »

Besides, people tend to forget, that the sacking of Admiral Bhagwat caused the NDA government to collapse, when J. Jayalalitha withdrew support of her MP's over the issue. Its not such a simple thing to sack a service chief, no matter what the Babu's might like to imagine.
Puarji: This is a bit over the top! There were a lot of reasons for the NDA govt. to collapse. Attributing it to the Vishnu Bhagwat case, alone, is not quite correct. In the final analysis, this case mattered very little. It was just post event rationalization.
Already, all who have stood before him (Avadesh Prakash, Rath, Nanda), have ended up court martialled and disgraced. Who will be next?
Puarji: Again, I would respectfully urge you to apprise yourself about the full developments and the denouement in this case. Nanda was not at fault. The CoI proved that. Infact there is a GCM underway against the Col who made the frivolous allegations.

Sir: While I agree to your viewpoint on most things, sometimes, blind, unbridled support leads to more josh than hosh.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Ah yes, youre right. Gen Nanda was not part of this cabal, and yes, he was vindicated. I have no blind support for the General. But I disagree with the way the matter is being handled. Carry out an inquiry, and then report the result, whatever it may be, is what Im saying!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Avik »

^^^^^^

That, I accept completely
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

As to Bhagwat, of course there were other political machinations going on underneath, but it was indeed a VERY IMPORTANT factor in the fall of the NDA govt in 1999, and it became the lynchpin when J Jayalathia refused support until he was reinstated, and Fernandes sacked.

BJP did not agree (as was likely planned by Amma), and govt fell. There were other underlying issues, but this issue was very important indeed, even though attempted to be suppressed in the media back then.

http://hindu.com/fline/fl1608/16080220.htm

http://www.indianexpress.com/Storyold/88202/

http://www.hindu.com/fline/fl1608/16080180.htm

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/mar/31prk.htm
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

geeth wrote:^^^

I still do not understand how the DoB can affect promotion prospects. Anyway, if the ACRs mention 1950 as YOB, equally or more documents give 1951 as YoB.

I have also read reports which says the General had indeed represented about the discrepancy in the past about his DoB. What action was followed is not known.

There could also be some link between the Court Martial of Lt.Gen Avadhesh Prakash and the Chief's retirement. To have a pliable chief could be helpful in getting a favourable/less harsh punishment.

In any case, to argue that the 'succession plan' will be affected is frivolous..If the plan is going to be affected, make another plan..what is the problem? Also, you know the problem is there for the past many years. Instead of solving it, you can't wish it away.

IMO, the Chief should take up the matter to a logical conclusion one way or other. Let the Babus mess up with the Army. They have so much hatred towards the military, now they have made even the police ranks above the Army.
From ASPuar's post, it is clear that not MOD, but from within Army, things have been manipulated. Babus would not have had much say since Law Ministry had agreed with General's contention( which would have been put by MOD). SO let us not make it Babus vs Army type case. It is Army and Political since Attorney General had given different opinion.

an way General has good case and Govt by accepting it gracefully would do service to army and nation.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by jagbani »

Its really a great achievement that Lt.Col. Harjit Singh Sajjan, has become the first Sikh in Canada to take command of a British Columbia regiment. In a historic ceremony, a change of command in the British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) took place on September 11, 2011, at the Beatty Street Armoury in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/fulls ... 56_147715-
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Chaanakya, MOD could have easily initiated the exercise of ensuring wrong date of birth is confirmed, via media of the Military Secretary and then-chief. Who knows. An inquiry should be started.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Vinit »

Not sure if this is the right thread, but interesting to know that this happens. Personally, I think handing out senior positions like this reduces the prestige associated with them.

Indian captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni [ Images ] and Olympic gold medallist shooter Abhinav Bindra [ Images ] have been conferred with the rank of honourary Lieutenant Colonel in the Territorial Army by President Pratibha Patil

Kapil Dev is an Honorary Lt Col in the Territorial Army, while Tendulkar is an honorary Group Captain in the Indian Air Force.


http://www.rediff.com/cricket/report/ms ... 110914.htm
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

^^^

Agree 100%
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by jagbani »

yeah absolutely right i heard this in news channel that they are added into the defense
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

how do the troops feel about these honorary commissions?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by vishvak »

Vinit wrote:Indian captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni [ Images ] and Olympic gold medallist shooter Abhinav Bindra [ Images ] have been conferred with the rank of honourary Lieutenant Colonel in the Territorial Army by President Pratibha Patil

Kapil Dev is an Honorary Lt Col in the Territorial Army, while Tendulkar is an honorary Group Captain in the Indian Air Force.


http://www.rediff.com/cricket/report/ms ... 110914.htm
IIRC, Nana Patekar actually served somewhere and he is fond of shooting tournaments. Now that honorary ranks are conferred, I wish Dhoni and Tendulkar and Kapil also develop affinity with defense in some manner, and appeal to more Indians for guns.
Last edited by vishvak on 15 Sep 2011 22:09, edited 1 time in total.
chaanakya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

ASPuar wrote:Chaanakya, MOD could have easily initiated the exercise of ensuring wrong date of birth is confirmed, via media of the Military Secretary and then-chief. Who knows. An inquiry should be started.
Babus would not have the discretion once attorney general has given different opinion, not that I would defend babus in MOD. I think it is minister of defence , (if you mean Minister by MOD then I fully agree, as it seems to be political) who should really be asked as to what happened. Could someone file RTI application to see MOD notings on the matter,

I agree that inquiry should be conducted and the then MS should be taken to task. Already he is in deep trouble and could be going to jail.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Vinit wrote:Not sure if this is the right thread, but interesting to know that this happens. Personally, I think handing out senior positions like this reduces the prestige associated with them.

Indian captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni [ Images ] and Olympic gold medallist shooter Abhinav Bindra [ Images ] have been conferred with the rank of honourary Lieutenant Colonel in the Territorial Army by President Pratibha Patil

Kapil Dev is an Honorary Lt Col in the Territorial Army, while Tendulkar is an honorary Group Captain in the Indian Air Force.


http://www.rediff.com/cricket/report/ms ... 110914.htm
These are conferred by Army and have Publicity value , just like Brand Ambassadors They help attracting people towards Armed Forces. But sure , if it is felt otherwise by Rank and file, it could very well be dropped by Armed forces themselves..
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

War memorial work from tomorrow

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 987259.cms
GURGAON: To commemorate the sacrifices made by 114 martyrs who fought the 1962 India-China war at Rezang-La Pass, the state has decided to invite their family members to the foundation stone-laying ceremony of the war memorial, which will come up at the Palam Vihar Chowk in the city.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by pmund »

@vishvak, Nana Patekar DID NOT 'serve' anywhere in any capacity. Even the visit to Kargil was apparently not sanctioned by local commanders
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

^^^He did the Commando Course in Belagaum.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by vishvak »

rohitvats wrote:^^^He did the Commando Course in Belagaum.
Showbiz in Kargil:
It's true that when the Kargil conflict began in May this year, Patekar did call his army contacts and offer his services in any capacity. But the army didn't immediately send him off to the frontline to battle Pakistani intruders, as some people mistakenly think.

Instead, he received a special permit to visit the army camps there, to meet the units on active duty and to bunk with them. This was a special privilege...

But at least Patekar's intentions were genuine and heartfelt. The fact that he arrived there without a photographer in tow and was willing to rough it out with the jawans earned him a great deal of respect.
...
One of the few film makers who does command respect in the armed forces is J P Dutta. "His Border was the best war film to show how it really is in the fauj," said a veteran of two battles in the recent Kargil conflict. "The others are all big liars exploiting our achievements for their own profit. They should be shot dead."

One Kashmiri politician who attracts a great deal of derision today is Dr(??) Farooq Abdullah. One reason cited for his insincerity to his cause is the way he openly travels around with visiting film stars. "Woh heroine ke saath ghumte rehta hai (as he always has done)
according to the report.

From http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/feature ... index.html
Nana Patekar has undergone extensive training for rifle shooting. He also owns his set of rifle's which he has been practicing every week over sometime now. Nana Patekar seems to excel at this sport. It started at as a hobby but Nana started to get too engaged in it and took it up very seriously. He has set a record of scoring 560/600 points which is way to excellent for this sport.
From http://hindu.com/2004/09/05/stories/200 ... 341600.htm :
"Patekar will take part in the .22 bore free rifle prone competition. He made the grade in a State competition for novices (Capt. Ezekiel shooting championships)," said Pandit, an international shooter.

"He took to shooting just two months ago and is already passionate about it," Pandit said. "He has been training for hours at the Worli shooting range with an aim to make it to the national championship," he added.
As far as shooting championships, he is more sporty than cricketers.

A Pic:When Nana Patekar Came Calling
Last edited by vishvak on 16 Sep 2011 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by anjan »

Vinit wrote:Not sure if this is the right thread, but interesting to know that this happens. Personally, I think handing out senior positions like this reduces the prestige associated with them.

Indian captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni [ Images ] and Olympic gold medallist shooter Abhinav Bindra [ Images ] have been conferred with the rank of honourary Lieutenant Colonel in the Territorial Army by President Pratibha Patil

Kapil Dev is an Honorary Lt Col in the Territorial Army, while Tendulkar is an honorary Group Captain in the Indian Air Force.
They're meant to popularize and familiarize youngsters with the idea of the Army. They're already youth icons and this is supposed to translate. I think the Army can use all the help it can get. I don't think there is any general angst against it. They're just a handful of them and if they can get bright young men into the Army then why not?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

LAC issue: Army for resolution at earliest
The Indian Army has asked the ministry of defence to convey to the ministry of external affairs that the latter should take up the boundary issue with China immediately. Sources say this communication has come in the wake of the reported intrusion of two Chinese choppers into the Chumur
related stories

Beijing says keep off South China Sea, Delhi unmoved

area of Ladakh on August 25. The army wants such incursions into Indian territory to stop immediately.

The army has pressed for a possible demarcation of the boundary with China in the Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir and other states.

Although it denied any such incident, sources said the army too had instituted its own inquiry into the matter.

The boundary dispute between India and China was responsible for the India-China war of 1962. A large chunk of Indian territory including about 38,000 square km in the Ladakh region alone is under the occupation of China.

Varying perceptions of the borderline persist despite the Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquillity along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the India-China Border Areas of September 7, 1993, and the November 1996 Agreement of Confidence Building Measures in the military field along the LAC.

The problem of intrusion has been festering for the past two-three years.

The J&K government in 2010 stopped constructing a passenger shed near the border after protests from infiltrating Chinese troops in October 2009. Chinese troops had stepped into Indian territory in the Demchok area of Ladakh along the border to register their protest.

Construction was stopped on the directions of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police and the army.

IB chief raises red flag over China

IB chief Nehchal Sandhu on Thursday raised a red flag at Beijing’s ‘intrusive’ interest in northeastern insurgent groups, many of them known to procure weapons through suppliers based in China.

Sandhu's remarks at the conference of police chiefs from across the country are unusual, particularly since the security establishment has been coy about any negative references to the economic powerhouse in public.

Sandhu’s comments came at the conference where he was outlining the security challenges facing the country.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

Antony faces trouble for statement on army chief's age

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/09/ ... nt-on.html
A copy of the Military Secretary's Branch letter that confirms that all General VK Singh's senior promotions (from brigadier to major general to lieutenant general) were on the basis of a date of birth of 10th May 1951. The army chief has been told by the defence ministry that his official date of birth is 10th May 1950, and that he must retire in May 2012 on reaching the age of 62
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Vinit »

anjan wrote:
Vinit wrote:Not sure if this is the right thread, but interesting to know that this happens. Personally, I think handing out senior positions like this reduces the prestige associated with them.

Indian captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni [ Images ] and Olympic gold medallist shooter Abhinav Bindra [ Images ] have been conferred with the rank of honourary Lieutenant Colonel in the Territorial Army by President Pratibha Patil

Kapil Dev is an Honorary Lt Col in the Territorial Army, while Tendulkar is an honorary Group Captain in the Indian Air Force.
They're meant to popularize and familiarize youngsters with the idea of the Army. They're already youth icons and this is supposed to translate. I think the Army can use all the help it can get. I don't think there is any general angst against it. They're just a handful of them and if they can get bright young men into the Army then why not?
I hear your argument, but am not convinced.

The armed forces are well known, as are the career options and lifestyle they offer. People who want to join will join. I very much doubt that the armed forces need endorsement from the likes of Dhoni and co; that would be kind of equating them with Pepsi (and I won't choose to drink Pepsi because a cricketer tells me he's refreshed by it - let alone deciding on a career choice because he says so).

Also, any "bright young person" would know that these guys are associated with the armed forces not because they like it or have qualified for it, but because they excel(?) at a sport.

A Lt. Colonel or Group Captain carries prestige - the prestige of having made it through a tough selection process, then excelled in his career to reach a senior position. My opinion: the handing out of these positions as sops by politicians diminishes them and causes far more damage to the armed forces image than benefit.
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