Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 May 2013 14:03

^^^
Very friendly and readable article by the Telegraph. There's also a very appreciative and balanced article by the Economist correspondent in India called "Immensity of India" in the Times of India. Surprisingly good stuff in light of the British media's alleged 'hate India' fest!

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 14 May 2013 16:27

Varoon

do you have a link please?

kish · Post by **kish** » 14 May 2013 17:54

UK launches 'super-priority' same-day visas for Indians

Britain has launched a new "super priority" same-day visa service for urgent travellers from India, the first-of-its-kind service to be launched by the UK anywhere in the world.

The Super Priority Visa Service had been announced by British Prime Minister David Cameron during his visit to the country in February this year.

The first-of-its-kind service to be launched anywhere in the world by the UK Home Office is open for appointment bookings in India from Tuesday.

I don't know how long before pakis would ask for this 'super-priority' visa.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 May 2013 18:05

they have one already - it involves a pick up at home by special limosine by 4 burly chauffeurs at any time of the day or (preferably) night. a rapid ride to the transit hub in afghanistan and then a convenient long haul flight to a 'hotel' in Poland where you can enjoy a 'manicure' or a refereshing 'bath' or 'electric therapy' and some friendly conversation before you are flown by private jet to your destination.

this visa was pioneered by the US, but has caught on

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 May 2013 19:24

Giggle.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 15 May 2013 01:19

All the rapists are of Pakistani origin:

Oxford exploitation trial: Guilty verdicts over child rapes

The jury at the Old Bailey considered the evidence for two-and-a-half days and returned the following verdicts.

Kamar Jamil was found guilty of five counts of rape, two counts of conspiracy to rape and one count of facilitating child prostitution.

Akhtar Dogar was found guilty of five counts of rape, three counts of conspiracy to rape, two counts of child prostitution and one count of trafficking.

Anjum Dogar was found guilty of four counts of rape, two counts of child prostitution, two counts of conspiracy to rape and one count of trafficking.

Assad Hussain was found not guilty of rape and guilty of two counts of sex with a child.

Mohammed Karrar was found guilty of two counts of conspiracy to rape, three counts of rape of a child, one count of using an instrument to procure miscarriage, two counts of trafficking, one count of assault of a child by penetration, one count of child prostitution, one count of rape and one count of supplying a class A drug.

Bassam Karrar was found guilty of two counts of rape, one count of conspiracy to rape a child, one count of rape of a child, one count of child prostitution, one count of trafficking and one count of conspiracy to rape.

Zeeshan Ahmed was found guilty of two counts of sex with a child.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 15 May 2013 01:27

The Daily Telegraph:

The Rise of India 2.0

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 May 2013 01:30

The opinion of the British media towards India - good or bad, should be considered as irrelevant considering Britain's own increasing irrelevance.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 May 2013 01:57

The opinion has become a liability and also dangerous

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 15 May 2013 02:06

You're not going to believe this...

Macaulay: Pioneer of India's Modernization [Kindle Edition]
by Zareer Masani

Thomas Macaulay is most famous for having introduced the English language as a medium for learning in India, creating a class of westernized Indians who are sometimes derisively referred to as ‘Macaulay’s children’. Was this an act of cultural imperialism or a modernizing move far before its time? Macaulay has always inspired both admiration and hostility in India. Ever since he served on the Supreme Council of India in the 1830s, his thinking and policies have had a profound, transformative impact on the subcontinent. Today, some Dalit activists even celebrate him as their liberator from caste tyranny. Macaulay is the first biography of this vastly influential figure for the general reader, giving a vivid sense of a brilliant, eccentric, contradictory man and his complex times. In a portrait that is as elegant as it is intriguing, Zareer Masani traces Macaulay’s fascinating journey from child prodigy, historian and parliamentary orator in London to imperial administrator in India, and then a revered elder statesman back in Britain. The reader is allowed a glimpse into what it felt like to be at the centre of power in a global empire, ruling over hundreds of millions of Indian subjects and shaping the destiny of a subcontinent.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 15 May 2013 03:01

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 019189.cms

Haresh, here it is!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 May 2013 04:48

Agnimitra wrote:You're not going to believe this...
Macaulay: Pioneer of India's Modernization [Kindle Edition]
by Zareer Masani The reader is allowed a glimpse into what it felt like to be at the centre of power in a global empire, ruling over hundreds of millions of Indian subjects and shaping the destiny of a subcontinent.

Basically a false narrative is being setup.

Dr Zareer Masani (son of the late politician Minoo Masani) has an Oxford doctorate in Modern History (with a thesis on Indian nationalism) and is the author of three very successful historical books on India: Indira Gandhi: A Biography (Hamish Hamilton, London, 1975); Indian Tales of the Raj (BBC, 1987); and India From Raj to Rajiv (BBC, 1988, with Mark Tully). He worked for two decades as a current affairs producer for BBC Radio and is now a freelance author and broadcaster. Dr Masani is currently researching a new biography of Lord Macaulay, the 19th century, imperial statesman and historian who introduced English education to India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 May 2013 05:01

The "Torygraph" has always been pro-India,and Cameron's govt. right from the start has been keen on establishing amodern close relationship with India,right from education,cultural ties to hard-headed business relationships.What is accelerating the thrust,is the fact that the PRC has badly treated the BBritish PM for meeting HH the Dalai Lama and has openly snubbed him and also invited the French Pres. with all the dragon and fire-cracker frills.While M.Hollande enjoys his dim sum ,supping with the Zhongnanhai clique in Beijing,the only Chinese food that Mr.Cameron will get is at Soho!

However,there is much to be gained from the Indo-Brit relationship,as Mr.Tata and Mittal have found out.The large hardworking lo9yal Indian diaspora in Britain is an asset to the crown,unlike the ungodly species of rabids,the least said of them the better.Indo-Brit networking using the innumerable contacts that exist,will benefit both nations immensely if properly handled.The "super-priority " same day visas will be a boon,particularly to British diplomats in India,who can now recommend the instant visas for qualified individuals.This was a big controversy earlier on when the Border agency vetted visas to the frustration of the diplomats who could not overrule them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 May 2013 23:59

The ripples of the Litvinenko assassination haven't ceased as going by this report.The petty Russian defector worked for MI6 and Spanish intel ,and was a pal of Russian oligarchs living in the UK.His mysterious death is now being allegedly covered up by none other than the British For.Sec. Russia has consistently denied having anything to do with his death,analysts raise doubts too of a Russian state role,as he was a petty defector of little trouble to the Kremlin.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ma ... nce-secret

Litvinenko inquest coroner agrees to keep crucial evidence secret

Foreign secretary accused of sabotaging inquest into 2006 death of former Russian spy as coroner says proceeding might now end up 'incomplete and misleading'
Luke Harding
The Guardian, Friday 17 May 2013 18.41 BST

Alexander Litvinenko died in November 2006 after two former KGB agents allegedly slipped radioactive polonium into his tea at London's Millennium hotel. Photograph: Alistair Fuller/AP

William Hague has been accused of sabotaging the inquest into the death of the Russian Alexander Litvinenko, after a coroner upheld his application to keep crucial evidence secret.

The coroner, Sir Robert Owen, reluctantly agreed on Friday to the foreign secretary's request to hide material which suggested Russia's state agencies were behind Litvinenko's cold war-style killing. Owen also agreed to exclude other documents that examined whether UK officials could have done more to prevent the murder.

In his ruling, Owen said the inquest might now result in an "incomplete, misleading and unfair" verdict. The coroner said he was considering inviting the government to hold a public inquiry instead, which would hear the sensitive evidence buried by Hague.

Litvinenko died in November 2006 after two former KGB agents – Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun – allegedly slipped radioactive polonium into his tea at London's Millennium hotel. The Kremlin has refused to extradite the two spies, who have both vigorously denied Litvinenko's murder.

Relations between London and Moscow have recently thawed, with David Cameron last week warmly praising Vladimir Putin following discussions on Syria. The prime minister and the Russian president bonded last summer at London's Olympics, when they watched the judo together.

Litvinenko's widow Marina said she was disappointed with the coroner's ruling. Her lawyer, Ben Emmerson QC, had previously accused Hague of attempting to stage a cover-up and of placing Britain's trade interests with Moscow ahead of justice. Both Hague and Cameron were shamelessly "dancing to the Russian tarantella", he told a pre-inquest hearing.

Speaking on Friday, Litvinenko's close friend Alex Goldfarb said it was now apparent that Hague was indeed hiding evidence in the case in order to appease the Kremlin. "It's obvious: the government is trying to protect its relations with Putin. They have their reasons. They want Russian co-operation and investment. But in this case it's being done at the expense of justice."

Goldfarb said it was practically meaningless to soldier on with an inquest if it could no longer examine the role of Russia's spy agencies, nor damning evidence indicating that the polonium used in the murder plot came from Russia. He added: "They [Hague and Cameron] appear more concerned about chemical weapons in Syria than polonium spread around the streets of London."

In his ruling, the coroner said the secret evidence held by the British government "does establish a prima facie case as to the culpability of the Russian state in Mr Litvinenko's death". This evidence will now not be revealed. Owen made clear his unhappiness with this situation.

Litvinenko's widow and other interested parties now have 14 days to challenge the coroner's decision. But they have little chance of success – not least because they have been kept in the dark as to what the secret evidence includes. Hague's lawyers have shown "samples" of the controversial material in closed-door hearings held over several days.

National newspapers and the BBC have joined forces to oppose Hague's secrecy application and on Friday expressed their dismay at the ruling. Jan Clements, a lawyer acting for the Guardian and other media groups, said: "It would mark a low point in open justice if evidence concerning the responsibility for and preventability of the killing of Litvinenko were only heard in a secret hearing."

Earlier, Alex Bailin QC, the lawyer acting for the media, said "the public and media are faced with a situation where a public inquest into a death … may have large amounts of highly relevant evidence excluded from consideration by the inquest. Such a prospect is deeply troubling."

Hague applied for a public interest immunity certificate (PII) on 7 February. His lawyer argued that if sensitive evidence were revealed it might damage the UK's "national security and/or international relations". Critics complained this wording was excessively vague. The coroner did eventually reject a part of Hague's PII claim, but the subject was redacted and is shrouded in mystery.

The government has consistently refused to say what evidence it wants to hide. But it will almost certainly include revelations made at a hearing in December that at the time of his death Litvinenko was working for the British secret services.

Litvinenko was also a "paid agent" of the Spanish security services. MI6 encouraged him to supply information to the Spanish about Russian mafia activities, and alleged links between top organised criminals and the Kremlin, the hearing heard.

In 2006, a few months before his death, Litvinenko travelled to Spain and met his MI6 handler, "Martin". The fact Litvinenko – a former Russian spy – was working for MI6 raises embarrassing questions as to whether British intelligence should have done more to protect him. Litvinenko had a dedicated phone to contact "Martin" and received regular payments to his bank account from MI6 and Madrid, it emerged in December.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 May 2013 02:42

Nigel Farage ,leader of England's UKIP party,alleged fascist and racist,is doing his best for Scotland to secede from Britain with his disastrous trip to Edinburgh,where he was heckled and jeered .Anti-English sentiment in Scotland is rising as a the prospect of a referendum on Scottish independence looms menacingly (for Britain) in the future.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013 ... ex-salmond
Nigel Farage and Alex Salmond trade insults in battle of nationalists

SNP leader accuses Farage of touting obnoxious policies after Ukip leader labels protesters 'fascist scum'

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 22 May 2013 21:43

Big UK story developing. Government COBRA crisis team to meet after man stabbed to death in London. Reports dead man serving soldier.

Update 1800 GMT: UK govt treating inxident as terror attack. 2 men shot and receiving treatment in separate hospitals

RT @BBCBreaking: Police believe #Woolwich attackers shouted "Allahu Akbar" (Arabic for God is Great) UK gov sources tell @bbcnickrobinson

What happened:
2 black guys run over white guy outside a primary school. Behead the man with machete. Public ask why? They say they've had enough. Appeared to be on drugs. Ordinary police arrive and decide to wait for armed police. Armed police arrive : man with machete runs to attack armed police. Lady cop takes him out. Other chap had a old revolver and fired- blew his own finger off.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 May 2013 20:13

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 28583.html

Exclusive: Woolwich attack suspect attended meetings of banned Islamist group - and were known by security services

Former leader of banned group confirmed that he had known the man who was seen on video in the immediate aftermath of horrific killing

One of the two men involved in the Woolwich terror attack was known to a banned Islamist organisation and went by the name of Mujahid, The Independent has learned.

It was also reported today that the alleged killers, who are under armed guard in different London hospitals, were both known to security services.

Anjem Choudary, the former leader of the group, Al Muhajiroun, confirmed that he had known the man who was seen on video in the immediate aftermath of yesterday's horrific killing waving a cleaver with bloodied hands and making political statements.

Mr Choudary said Mujahid, who he said had converted to Islam in 2003 and was a British-born Nigerian, had stopped attending meetings of Al Muhajiroun and its successor organisations two years ago. The former solicitor said he had also known "Mujahid" as Michael.

Sources today named one of the suspects as 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo.

Mr Choudary told The Independent: “I knew him as Mujahid. He attended our meetings and my lectures. I wouldn’t describe him as a member [of Al Muhajiroun]. There were lots of people who came to our activities who weren’t necessarily members.

“He was a pleasant, quiet guy. He reverted to Islam in about 2003. He was just a completely normal guy. He was interested in Islam, in memorising the Koran. He disappeared about two years ago. I don’t know what influences he has been under since then.”

Founded in 1983 by Islamist Omar Bakri Muhammad, Al Muhajiroun became notorious for attempting to justify the 9/11 attacks and fomenting Islamist rhetoric in Britain.

Mr Choudary, who has long been a controversial figures in Britain’s Islamist circles, has been an outspoken critic of British military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But he insisted that he had never preached that attacks on British troops or security personnel in Britain were justified.

Mr Choudary said: “My position is clear. There is a covenant which says that in return for Muslims being allowed to live peacefully and practice their faith in Britain, then it is forbidden to attack the British authorities, soldiers, in the UK.

“When people go abroad then the inhabitants of those countries have a right to defend themselves. The biggest aggravating factor we have today is British foreign policy.”

He denied that Mujahid could have been radicalised by his teachings, adding that more extremist material, including the sermons of Yemen-based cleric Anwar Al Awlaki and the Al Qaeda-linked magazine Inspire, have been easily available via the internet.

He said: “If you are saying that you are radicalised by saying that British foreign policy is wrong then there are whole load of other organisations and anti-war groups who have said the same.

“Mujahid left us two years ago. There is plenty of material out there that does not observe the covenant we do that there can be no attacks in Europe. There is Al Awlaki and Inspire. I do not know what sort of material Mujahid could have seen.”

Police said a property in Lincolnshire and another in Greenwich had been searched in connection with the murder.

Sources told The Independent yesterday that the dead man was a member of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which is currently based overseas.

The soldier, who has not yet been named, was killed by two suspected Islamists who attempted to behead and disembowel him as he left a barracks.

It is the first deadly attack since the 2005 London bombings.

One of the suspected killers, who addressed an onlooker who had a camera, said the pair had carried out the attack "because David Cameron, [the] British government sent troops in Arabic country".

Video footage of him speaking to camera was published by ITV News yesterday evening.

In response to the attack security at the barracks has been increased and according to Sky News members of the British armed forces have been warned not to wear their uniforms in public until further notice.

Former chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee Baroness Neville-Jones said the security services would today be exploring whether the attack was carried out by a "lone wolf" or by someone with further connections, either at home or abroad.

"Clearly, as in this case the perpetrators are still alive they are going to be questioned. There is going to be a great deal of information available," she said on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.

"There is a much bigger problem, potentially.

"Isolated attacks of the kind we have just seen, of this kind of attack, I'm inclined to think is possibly more in the nature of a lone wolf, is particularly hard to deal with because there are very few outward signs beforehand of the nature the intelligence services can pick up."

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 24 May 2013 00:13

Victim_Identified

There's a video clip of one of the attacker attending a Islamist protest from 2007 on the webpage.

The soldier killed in an attack in London has been named as Drummer Lee Rigby of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.
Drummer Rigby, 25, from Manchester, leaves behind a two-year-old son.

The BBC has uncovered its own footage of one of the alleged Woolwich attackers, taking part in an Islamist demonstration in April 2007 against the arrest of a man from Luton.
Mr Adebolajo can be seen standing in a crowd of men outside Paddington Green police station, holding a placard reading "Crusade Against Muslims".
He is standing next to Anjem Choudary --He was initially on the news and now a flashback from 2007? who was the leader of al-Muhajiroun, a now-banned organisation.
Mr Choudary --without a doubt a porki said Mr Adebojalo was previously associated with the group, but went his own way in around 2010.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 May 2013 06:39

It is ironic that just a week ago I posted the rise of anti-Semitism and appeasement of radical Islam in Britain.
From latest reports,the Brit. agency MI 5 had known about the two attackers for 8 years! The appeasement of Islamic fundoos has long past the period of leniency.It should instant deportation for promoting and preaching fundamentalism and high-risk individuals should be brought before an anti-terror board and be deported if considered high-risk.

"Suspect heard preachings of former London imam who today provokes outrage by defiantly stating: 'He was very courageous... Under Islam, this can be justified."

Exclusive: Suspect was inspired by cleric banned from UK after urging followers to behead enemies of Islam

Suspect heard preachings of former London imam who today provokes outrage by defiantly stating: 'He was very courageous... Under Islam, this can be justified'

Kim Sengupta
Defence Correspondent
Thursday 23 May 2013

One of the suspected killers who attempted to behead and disembowel a young soldier in the horrific Woolwich attack had listened to the preachings of a radical Muslim cleric banned from Britain over extremist activities, including alleged links to al-Qa’ida, The Independent has learnt.

The cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed has been secretly filmed stating that decapitation of the enemies of Islam was permitted. Today, in comments met with outrage, he told The Independent that he could understand the feeling of rage that had motivated the attackers and that what they had done could be justified under certain interpretations of Islam.

Michael Adebolajo, a British-Muslim convert of Nigerian origin who gave a video interview with a meat cleaver in his bloodied hands while the body of 25-year-old Drummer Lee Rigby lay on the street behind him, declared that he was fighting for “Almighty Allah”.

Tonight the second suspect was understood to be Michael Adebowale, 22, of Greenwich.

Mr Bakri Muhammed, who now lives in Lebanon, told The Independent: “I saw the film and we could see that he [the suspect] was being very courageous.

“Under Islam this can be justified, he was not targeting civilians, he was taking on a military man in an operation. To people around here [in the Middle East] he is a hero for what he has done.”

Mr Bakri Muhammed said of the suspect: “I knew him as Michael when he came to the meetings and then he converted and he became known as Abdullah; I hear he then started calling himself Mujahid. He asked questions about religion, he was curious. He had first started coming when there was a lot of anger about the Iraq war and the war on terror. Whether I influenced him or not, I do not know. But he was a quiet boy, so something must have happened.”

In other developments today, two new arrests were made: a man and a woman on suspicion of conspiracy to murder, following raids at six addresses in London and Lincoln.

It also emerged that the two suspected killers of Drummer Rigby were already known to MI5 and, almost certainly, to counter-terrorism officers in the police. One of the men was stopped from travelling to Somalia to join the Islamist militia Al-Shabaab last year.

Security officials insisted that there had been no evidence that either of the two men were planning an imminent attack. Nor was there any evidence, they say, that they were discussing beheading. They point out that there were plenty of references to it in Islamist websites.

In 2007, following the conviction of a group British Pakistanis who had plotted to kidnap and behead a British soldier, a secret recording emerged of Mr Bakri Muhammed saying: “When you meet [Westerners], slice their own necks. And when you make the blood spill all over, and the enemy becomes so tired, now start to take from them prisoners. Then free them or exchange them until the war is finished.

“Verily they remind the sunnah of removing the head of the enemy. They remind the sunnah of slaughtering the enemy. They remind the sunnah of how to strike the neck of the enemy. They removed the head of the enemy. Use the sword and remove the head of the enemy.”

In another message, Mr Bakri Muhammed had said he hoped that “British Muslims who are in the Army over there” (Afghanistan) can be captured.

Mr Bakri Muhammed, who is Syrian-born, and has named one of his sons after Osama bin Laden, stated that he and his followers were not involved in violence while residing in the UK due to what had become known as the “covenant of security” under which Islamist organisations were allowed to carry out their activities, but desisted from taking armed action in the country which had given them refuge.

“But in this case obviously the covenant of security did not apply,” he said.

“Beheading is how criminals were executed under the laws; but that must happen with a Sharia court and decision by judges with criminals. On this occasion he was taking military action, not a legal one.”

Mr Bakri Muhammed had set up the organization Hizb ut-Tahrir in the UK, where he had claimed asylum in 1986, but split with them after doctrinal disagreements and set up the Al-Muhajiroun group which attracted hundreds of followers including Adebolajo. That was also wound up but at least a dozen of its members are thought to have become or affiliated to suicide bombers.

Mr Bakri Muhammed left London soon after the 2005 bombings because, he said, of constant harassment by the authorities. When Israel carried out attacks on Lebanon during its war with Hizbullah a year later he attempted to join civilians being evacuated from Lebanon by the British military, but was refused. He protested at the time: “What concerns me is my safety. I’d be happy with a month’s visa but this morning they told me I couldn’t because I’m not a British citizen any more.”

He was subsequently informed by the UK government that he would not be allowed to return here. Since then Mr Bakri Muhammed had repeatedly warned that the foreign policy being pursued by the UK would lead to retaliation by Muslims in the West and states would be powerless to prevent this.

A 29-year-old woman at a home in south London, and a man of the same age, were arrested in arrested at an undisclosed location.

The two men shot by police remain in hospital with non-fatal injuries but it is understood officers are yet to interview the pair. It emerged that the shooting was captured by a council camera. Two officers fired their guns and a third fired a taser weapon, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said.

'Angel' did not want victim to die alone

The son of a woman who became known as the "angel" of the Woolwich attacks has spoken about what made his mother stay praying by the side of dying soldier Lee Rigby.

He told The Independent: "She just thought at the time, imagine if that was my son. No one wants to die with no one by their side. She just wanted to comfort the guy." He did not want to be named.

Family friend Joe Tallant said: "She wanted to comfort the man... She put her hands on his chest and prayed."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/2 ... -rigby-mi5

Woolwich attack: MI5 knew of men suspected of killing Lee Rigby
• Security service assessed suspects but did not investigate
• Victim Lee Rigby had served in the army for seven years
• Police raid homes in London and Lincolnshire
• Extremist cleric says he tutored suspect

Xcpt:The two suspects in the butchering to death of a British soldier had been known to the domestic security service MI5 and the police over an eight-year period, but had been assessed as peripheral figures and thus not subjected to a full-scale investigation, it has emerged .

Sadly,the latter-day "Crusades" launched by Dubya Bush and Tony B.Liar in Iraq,Afghanistan and sponsorship of the Arab Spring revolts,have caused such horrendous bloodshed in the Islamic world,that the outrage against the west has been so much that tens off thousands of their citizens have lost their mental balance,become extremists ,ready to serve their diabolic version of Islam and become suicide bombers,mercenary fighters,and would-be executioners like the two Nigerian Brits responsible for this last outrage.That there was an instant response from the public, fed up with the appeasement of Islamic fundoos ,in the form of attacks on mosques,etc.,is an indication of the tinderbox that Europe is sitting upon,which could explode any moment.The rise of the far-right in many EU nations,including Britain where the UKIP party has stunned political observers with its performance in recent polls,is the flow of the moment,clearly anti-Islam.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 May 2013 08:25

Can they deport a naturalized citizen to one's past country? What if that native country has death penalty? Can British be immoral and inhuman and send these people back?

Definitely a dilemma for the briturds.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 May 2013 17:00

Yes they can for naturalised citizens and I think non naturalised citizens - they can strip them of citizenship if they have left british soil. Already been done for extremist cleric - I forget his name.

Death penalty is a different issue - see abu qatada case - he is wanted in jordan.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 May 2013 18:10

the two munnas are british born, so should be fully british - no deportation option available

meanwhile the courts are still holding up deportation of abu qatada on the grounds that he might be tortured in jordan - which is upsetting the home secretary - who wants him deported

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 24 May 2013 18:53

Video of the attacker charging the police before he was shot.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 24 May 2013 19:32

^^That is a shame. they should have used pepper spray, a water canon, orsomething similar. How can a lone man with a small kitchen knife pose a threat to an army of 700,000 gun wielding security forces. they should have negotiated with the man, instead of shooting at him. I hope the human rights watch group take notice of this and bring justice to the minorities within Britain.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 24 May 2013 21:30

Why is this such a big news. Two eccentric guys hacked a person. May be it should be an issue that police shot dead a criminal, and it should be a criminal case against the police as it is against human rights. Britain refuses to deport criminals to countries with capital punishment. During last London riots, Police asked people not to respond if rioters attacked their properties, and if they did, they would be c harged with criminal assault.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 25 May 2013 03:24

^^^
From what can be seen, the international media is giving this attack far more coverage, and consequently expressing more outrage, than the killing of 4 Indian soldiers in Kashmir.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2013 08:26

The latest news is that allegedly,MI 5 tried to rope one of the attackers as an informer! This puts a whole new twist to the killing,as it exposes how the British govt. sleeps in bed with fanatics to do its dirty work.The island is full of Khalistanis,Kashmiri terrorists,Al Q sympathisers,et al,vermin of the worst species,that it is little wonder that it is yet again "blowback time" for Britain.sadly,resulting in the death of a drummer-boy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 31902.html

Woolwich murder suspect's 'friend' arrested amid claims MI5 tried to recruit Michael Adebolajo

Abu Nusaybah told Newsnight suspect turned down offer to work for security service

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 May 2013 13:46

I feel this is a case of a psychopathic murder rather than a real terror incident

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 May 2013 15:33

Lalmohan wrote:I feel this is a case of a psychopathic murder rather than a real terror incident

Lalmohan, my views:

1) The investigations should reveal if these attackers were essentially "working for themselves" or working for a larger terrorist organisation.

2) The attackers have very clearly been motivated by their religion, and were keen to do something and be seen to do something to retaliate against what they saw as British Government actions against muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

3) One of the attackers made his "eye for an eye" speech with the very clear intention of influencing British foreign policy; so this was a political murder, and as such the intention was to coerce the British Government to change its foreign policy / persuade the British public to not support an interventionist foreign policy; the amount of attention the attack has received arguably makes it as successful from the attackers' viewpoint and those of their ideological fellow travellers as the July 2005 bombings

4) While the murderers may not be the "calm and relaxed" personality types and perhaps their "abnormal" personality played a part in being able to carry out such a horrific attack, we should not forget that attackers like these get a lot of moral, ideological and psychological support, motivation and justification from any number of "muslim leaders", who never tire of telling the world how badly the world treats muslims, etc. That combined with the ideals of "jihad" and "eye for an eye" and you get murder by hacking in broad daylight.

5) The UK Government and media needs to aggressively counter the propaganda of these "muslim leaders", who exploit the psychological vulnerabilities of their young men and turn them into murderers, essentially as chips in a game with the government in an attempt to influence the policies of the government

Added later. The reasons I believe this was premeditated politically motivated murder with specific goals and objectives (i.e. terrorism) and carefully though through:

a) They specifically sought out a serving soldier
b) They had no personal animus against their victim, but sought him out as a symbol of British foreign policy
c) They did not attack any other member of the public (they could have with those meat cleavers)
d) They made specific political statements regarding UK foreign policy
e) They tried to claim the moral high ground: apologised for women having to witness such a scene, and then did an equal-equal with women in "muslim lands" having to witness the same
f) They waited for the police to arrive i.e. they wanted to be arrested and be tried in court / die as martyrs. The trial of these terrorists will be followed closely for clues of motivation, psychological profile, etc.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2013 16:46

As predicted,it's started.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/2 ... on-muslims

Attacks on Muslims soar in wake of Woolwich murder
Anti-Muslim incidents, online and in person, increase from a handful to 150 since Wednesday as arrests are made across UK

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 May 2013 16:52

Philip wrote:As predicted,it's started.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/2 ... on-muslims

Attacks on Muslims soar in wake of Woolwich murder
Anti-Muslim incidents, online and in person, increase from a handful to 150 since Wednesday as arrests are made across UK

India should not give any visa to David Cameron. He is turning into a "Maut ka Saudagar"!

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 May 2013 16:54

^^^^
Philip, this is precisely what the attackers wanted to do; which is spark off anti-muslim violent backlash. See this report. Just goes to show, you don't have to be a man to have b@lls!

Woolwich murder: Woman tells how she confronted attackers

Ms Loyau-Kennett, who lives in Helston, Cornwall, was on the number 53 bus heading through Woolwich, south east London on Wednesday afternoon when she spotted the soldier lying bloodied in the road.

'Covered with blood'
She told the Daily Telegraph she initially thought the man had been injured in an accident and got off the bus to give first aid.

"Then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse," she told the newspaper.

"And then when I went up, there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butchers' tools and he had a little axe and two large knives and he said 'move off the body'.

Before armed police arrived at the scene, Ms Loyau-Kennett, a mother of two, said she tried to reason with the killer in an effort to focus his attention away from other potential victims.

She was photographed by onlookers speaking to one of the men who was holding a knife.

She told the Telegraph: "So I thought 'OK, I don't know what is going on here' and he was covered with blood. I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'what do you want?'

"I asked him if he did it and he said, 'Yes,' and I said, 'Why?' And he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British soldier and I said, 'Really?' and he said, 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan, they have nothing to do there.'

'In full control'

"I started to talk to him and I started to notice more weapons and the guy behind him with more weapons as well. By then, people had started to gather around. So I thought OK, I should keep him talking to me before he noticed everything around him.

"He was not high, he was not on drugs, he was not an alcoholic or drunk, he was just distressed, upset. He was in full control of his decisions and ready to do everything he wanted to do.

In a statement outside Downing Street, David Cameron highlighted the actions of Ms Loyau-Kennett as demonstrating that "confronting extremism is a job for us all".

He said: "When told by the attacker he wanted to start a war in London, she replied, 'You're going to lose. It is only you versus many.' She spoke for us all."

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2013 17:03

Very true,and they are succeeding,with each outrage bringing society closer to breaking point.It is chaos and killing of the "infidels" that is the ultimate aim.The "faithful" will of course go straight to paradise and be met by their 72,so what do they have to lose?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 May 2013 17:52

a news paper carried a report that one of the munna's best friends was a british woman soldier who was killed in an IED attack in afghanistan a few years back

maybe that incident set him off on the path of 'self discovery' and his eventual personal destiny

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 May 2013 17:52

Philip wrote:so what do they have to lose?

housing benefit, dole, and the great British weather!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 May 2013 17:57

eklavya wrote:
Philip wrote:so what do they have to lose?
housing benefit, dole, and the great British weather!

dont forget 'freedom of worship' - back in their ancestral lands, that and right to free assembly and speech is also more problematic!

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 May 2013 18:19

Lalmohan,

What I find interesting is that both the murderers were called "Michael" i.e. born as Christians, but subsequently converted to Islam. One of the guys used to be a member of Al Muhajiroun. Clearly these guys are hearing stuff and being told stuff (outside their homes, by their new muslim associates) that is turning them into violent fanatics.

Some of these violent fanatics have a personal "axe to grind". My belief is that way too many of them are simply manufactured by the psychological and political indoctrination they receive at home, community groups, mosque, etc.

People worry about the jihad factories (Madrassas, etc) in Pakistan. What about the jihadi manufacturing units in the UK. I wonder what it will take to shut down this deadly enterprise and if it is even possible without breaching human right laws i.e. will it become another unpleasant but inevitable feature of British life, like the common cold.

At the very least, the school curricula and the broader media need to aggressively promote core civic values, and make clear that the law of the land is superior to any divine injunction.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 May 2013 18:32

May be the discussion can be taken to the "Islamic Britain and the Compromised Western Civilization" Thread! This does not have much to do with India.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 25 May 2013 18:41

Britain is incubating its own Khalistan movement. This is the manufacture of grievances. Reinforced by the in evitable backlash. When Christians riot in the streets, I hope Indians will be spared.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2013 03:59

And now a copycat attack on a French soldier in paris!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 32303.html

Breaking: French soldier stabbed in the neck in Paris
Police are seeking a suspect of North African origin

A French soldier was stabbed in the throat in a busy commercial district outside Paris today, and the government said it was trying to determine if there were any links to the brutal killing of a British soldier by suspected Islamic extremists.

French President Francois Hollande said the identity of the attacker, who escaped, was unknown and cautioned against jumping to conclusions about the assault on the uniformed soldier in the La Defense shopping area. The life of the 23-year-old soldier was not in danger, the Interior Ministry said in a statement.