India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 05 Sep 2016 21:46

From a video doing the rounds of the G20 photo ops and following handshakes. NaMo comes across as almost scampering to be with Obama. I feel he gives too much respect to Obama when he deserves nothing but a tight slap for his many utterings.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Sep 2016 21:53

Cosmo_R wrote:
Once of the big complaints the Pentagon voiced (publicly) from 2005 to now is "....we have asked the Indians what they want, but they have not told us what it is..." From 2005 to 2014, AKA refused to even be part of the strategic dialog withe US fearing commie and Muslim backlash in Kerala and in the UPA coalition.

When the MoD was finally able to articulate what it wanted (Predators/drones), it came up against MTCR restrictions which then had to be addressed first by membership (now done).

Lots of games will be played but the good thing is both sides can play them.

There are too many barriers to Tech transfer for Defense. This will take time.
India has to create a industrial ecosystem and new industrial base.

But India has to watch out by not giving too much for small things. NSG membership for signing the Paris Treaty ratification may be unequal

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 05 Sep 2016 22:02

@svinayak^^^ The NSG membership issue relative to Paris was raised by India after the SKorea NSG membership vote. In essence, India said (public) our adherence to the Paris Treaty may not be possible unless we get NSG membership. NaMo committed India to the PT before the NSG vote. His commitment to the treat was predicated on a whole lot of other stuff such as clean tech.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Sep 2016 23:25

Cosmo_R wrote:@svinayak^^^ The NSG membership issue relative to Paris was raised by India after the SKorea NSG membership vote. In essence, India said (public) our adherence to the Paris Treaty may not be possible unless we get NSG membership. NaMo committed India to the PT before the NSG vote. His commitment to the treat was predicated on a whole lot of other stuff such as clean tech.

Still not a good idea

India cannot bargain its future to a false and fragile treaty

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Sep 2016 00:04

Will the new rise of IndUS bring the Indus back to Hind-US?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Sep 2016 00:55

The more I read into the 123, Hyde, NSG, etc. the more baffled I get it. What exactly have we gained for all the lobbying?

The only + I see is that we get more uranium. THAT'S IT.

I keep running into the same question over and over...If we had just continued testing after 2008 until we perfected a few TN designs, we could have easily just signed the NPT and CTBT and have joined the NSG as a NWS. Moreover, the US would have been begging us for a compromise instead of us begging them. Why did we accept a unilateral moratorium? Seems to me like we shot ourselves in the foot for no reason.

The only other benefit I see is that if we are working on designs in secret, we now have better access to simulation technology so they could be more refined. So testing now may actually be better.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Sep 2016 01:07

^
Would we have signed NPT as a nuclear weapons state or as a non-nuclear weapons state?

IIRC, The current version allows for only 5 nuclear weapons state with the build-in cut-off date. So we would have hit the wall there too.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Sep 2016 01:19

pankajs wrote:^
Would we have signed NPT as a nuclear weapons state or as a non-nuclear weapons state?

IIRC, The current version allows for only 5 nuclear weapons state with the build-in cut-off date. So we would have hit the wall there too.

India has to break the wall.
India has to think out of the box

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Sep 2016 01:31

Don't we all wish that it were so easy i.e breaking through. One can claim that the current give-take is also an out of the box thinking.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Sep 2016 02:23

pankajs wrote:^
Would we have signed NPT as a nuclear weapons state or as a non-nuclear weapons state?

IIRC, The current version allows for only 5 nuclear weapons state with the build-in cut-off date. So we would have hit the wall there too.

With proven TN designs, fastest growing economy, and expanding industrial base they wont have a choice but to accept us as a NWS.

Also, lets say that we didn't sign NPT and CTBT...wouldn't a proven TN leave us in a far better position to negotiate entry into NSG after securing waiver?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Sep 2016 02:33

pankajs wrote:Don't we all wish that it were so easy i.e breaking through. One can claim that the current give-take is also an out of the box thinking.

This is India's future.
India will be largest populated country in the world in 30 years
India needs a secure future

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 06 Sep 2016 05:08

Everything is a hawaa hawaai as far as I see, what single step US has taken from its own side, modi co. is rushing like mad taking orders from US and implementing them... like there is no tomorow.

Did US make a rule for us assuring that there can be no sanctions anymore from there side? Nope.

For LCA, LCA Mk. 2, AMCA the GE 414 engines are to be used, but US govt. has told that GE won't give tech. So what the eff is this DTTI ? Are they going to offer pratt & whitney engines now?

Great so now EMALS are to be put on our next carrier, but US won't give n-reactor tech. Hudd ho gayi, jao roos sey le lo ! Oh but don't take their shtorm carrier 'cause we won't put our emals on it. But we are your friends still don't expect any reactor tech from us. Take that from roos.

In his last days this hybrid jehadi crusader obama is being shown his place by chinese no red carpet for him. But our great visionary govt. is signing away all the demanded four letter treaties for this departing govt. Getting what in return? On top of that snakey kerry has ordered sushma swaraj to remove ban from christian crusader colorado ngo "compassion" and govt. will capitulate to this dimming US adminstration in its last days.

Let's see how hillary will whip our nationalist govt. and drive them.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Sep 2016 05:41

Okie, chaiwala musings and completely unconfirmed at present ....

Seems, Roos might rise to the occasion and test the testy desi leadership by demanding a LEMO(n)OA sorta pact for R&R for Roosi troops and all in the warm waters of the arabian sea....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Sep 2016 06:46

Even PLAN could ask for berthing rights in exchange for similar privileges in Pacific ports.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 06 Sep 2016 07:08

I applaud the chinese govt for doing what they did to obama. Indians are too servile and with no sense of respect for themself. Putting fingers into the private orifices of our acting chief diplomate in NewYork ( I do not want to hear how bad that family is .She was representing her country and it was not about her or her family ).And to rub salt into the wounds of bharat mata another damn american saying that standard protocol was followed after examinig the orifices of India,s acting chief diplomate in NewYork when asked about why they did it. Body checks for our past president Shri APJ Abdul Kalam at the airport in his own country by american airlines. Body checks of our acting defense minister george fernandes in US and many others.

Just imagine if the shoe was on the other foot what the american reaction would be ? do I need to tell u judging by the reaction to what happened to obama.

Before someone jumps on me I would say that I have lived my life in the west and east with uncompromising principle of first respect for yourself . If u can not confront others who disrespect u expect no respect from them.

Only thing I would say that if I was in charge I would pay them back exactly in the same coin.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Sep 2016 07:18

Let's have 10 Trillion $ economy and 3 Trillion in Reserves and then we can grow 10 fingers to finger every Pinger on our IP.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 06 Sep 2016 07:21

u did not get the point my friend . It is not about money that is the whole point. Does Russia have a ten trillion dollar economy? or does philippines have a ten trillion dollar economy?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Sep 2016 09:32

snahata wrote:u did not get the point my friend . It is not about money that is the whole point. Does Russia have a ten trillion dollar economy? or does philippines have a ten trillion dollar economy?

India is not Piddy Phillipine with nothing to lose by acting Thuggish and Russia is former superpower with 10 time the natural resources and technology than India.No idea what gave the impression that India under PM Modi is acting subservient that We must Finger someone to prove the manhood. China did not become so powerful overnight either .It workd hard,buying time to improve economy and gain strength to come to this present state where they can show their true intentions without worrying about repercussion and this include China making Paki their protectorate to needle India all the time.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 06 Sep 2016 09:51

China was never servile to the US even when it had an economy the size that we have now. I just see Modi as running helter skelter around Obama in an effort to appear close to him for god knows what reason. It shows in his body language too. One sided hugs, jutting in between him and other leaders and trying to talk to him. I find that disgusting. Thats one area where Modi has been more than lacklustre.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Sep 2016 09:59

Chandragupta wrote:China was never servile to the US even when it had an economy the size that we have now. I just see Modi as running helter skelter around Obama in an effort to appear close to him for god knows what reason. It shows in his body language too. One sided hugs, jutting in between him and other leaders and trying to talk to him. I find that disgusting. Thats one area where Modi has been more than lacklustre.

The hug thing is very weird.

Just a simple Namaste would do fine.

It reeks of desperation.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Sep 2016 10:18

Chandragupta wrote:China was never servile to the US even when it had an economy the size that we have now. I just see Modi as running helter skelter around Obama in an effort to appear close to him for god knows what reason. It shows in his body language too. One sided hugs, jutting in between him and other leaders and trying to talk to him. I find that disgusting. Thats one area where Modi has been more than lacklustre.

At least that wouldn't happen with Hilary! A simple Namaste will have to do!

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Sep 2016 10:25

Cosmo_R, where is the clean tech? US itself is struggling to fund carbon sequestration.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Sep 2016 10:36

C Raja Mohan: The myth of military neutrality

With Chinese influence growing in the subcontinent, India needs greater engagement with the big powers.

Political anxieties about India’s growing defence ties with Washington persist despite the NDA government’s repeated clarifications that the recent logistics support agreement is not about building a military alliance with the US. While the public debate on this issue is centred on high principles, Delhi’s policymakers are under compulsion to adapt to the rapidly evolving power shift in and around India’s neighbourhood. As a result, Indian foreign policy’s military dimension is likely to loom larger than ever before.

Consider the following developments in the last few days: During his visit to Vietnam last week, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his interlocutors agreed to elevate their long standing military collaboration to a “comprehensive strategic partnership”. In an intensification of India’s military commitment to Vietnam, the PM announced Delhi’s decision to extend a $500-million credit line to Hanoi for the purchase of Indian defence equipment. This is in addition to the $100-million defence credit offered some years ago.

Another was the Afghan Taliban’s strong public criticism of India’s reported plans to step up military assistance to Kabul. In a statement on Sunday, Zabiullah Mujahid, the main spokesman for the Taliban, demanded that India stop “prolonging the lifespan” of the Kabul regime with its military aid.

Meanwhile, in a report published in Pakistan on Sunday, The Express Tribune said that Islamabad is negotiating a new long-term defence pact with China. The news leak in Islamabad has come days after the signing of the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) between India and the US at the end of August during Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s visit to Washington.

While Pakistan’s concern about deepening military cooperation between India and the US is understandable, the Congress party’s reaction to the LEMOA captures the continuing confusion in India. It was indeed the UPA government that opened up India to substantive defence cooperation with the US by signing a 10-year framework agreement in May 2005. But the Congress leadership soon developed cold feet and held back from signing agreements like the LEMOA.

In the statement issued in New Delhi on August 30, the Congress declared that the signing of the LEMOA is a “fundamental departure from India’s time-tested policy of “strategic military neutrality”. The surprising phrase, “strategic military neutrality”, however, sits uneasily with the proposition that it is “time-tested”. The drafters of the press release perhaps were probably constructing this neologism as a synonym for the more popular terms “strategic autonomy” and “non-alignment”.

The idea of “neutrality” nevertheless grates. In defining non-alignment as the leitmotif of India’s foreign policy, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was not seeking to turn India into a giant Switzerland, the exemplar of “neutrality” in the Westphalian world. For Nehru, non-alignment was about retaining the independence of judgment and freedom of political action. For India’s first PM, non-alignment was not about equidistance between major powers but of taking positions based on India’s interest and building military partnerships when necessary.

The Congress added that the LEMOA will “cause serious misgivings, unless explained and justified, among India’s traditional partners and time-tested allies, regionally and globally”. One wonders how “time-tested strategic military neutrality” squares with the idea of “time-tested allies”? The problem for the Congress, it would seem, is not really with the break from the principle of “non-alignment”, but of a strategic embrace with the US. There might be few objections from it, if Delhi were to sign a LEMOA agreement with say Russia or Japan.

While there are good reasons for this discomfort with the US — its alliance with Pakistan is one of them — India’s apprehensions of Chinese power are even stronger. In the wake of the 1962 war with China, Nehru turned to Washington for military assistance and considered a long-term strategic partnership. As the US drew closer to China at the turn of the 1970s, India aligned with the Soviet Union.

Like the LEMOA now, the Indo-Soviet Treaty of 1971 was criticised by many as a departure from the principles of “non-alignment”. But what India did with Russia was a classic balancing act against the Sino-American entente and their special relations with Pakistan. Forget the formal claims of Delhi and Beijing that they don’t do alliances. India could not but view China’s nuclear and missile cooperation with Pakistan as an “alliance”. China was not going to be impressed by Delhi’s claims that its relationship with Moscow was not an alliance.

Whatever the myth of “strategic military neutrality” might be, Delhi today cannot be neutral between China and Vietnam or between the Taliban and Kabul. As China’s military power radiates into the subcontinent with ever greater vigour, Delhi has begun to react. Relying on old myths is not going to help India avoid a potential conflict with China. Delhi must instead try and build a stable balance of the power system in the region. That would demand greater military engagement with all the major powers, and not “military neutrality” between them.

habal · Post by **habal** » 06 Sep 2016 14:14

Kashi wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:China was never servile to the US even when it had an economy the size that we have now. I just see Modi as running helter skelter around Obama in an effort to appear close to him for god knows what reason. It shows in his body language too. One sided hugs, jutting in between him and other leaders and trying to talk to him. I find that disgusting. Thats one area where Modi has been more than lacklustre.
At least that wouldn't happen with Hilary! A simple Namaste will have to do!

Donald Trump too will not let anyone near him, apparently he applies hand sanitizer after every time he shakes hands with someone. The man is a hygiene freak.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 06 Sep 2016 14:41

What's the need for a hug? That too a one sided hug with the other person clearly not into it. Doesn't show NaMo in a good light. There is no need for him to be playing such buddy buddy with leaders who will not think twice before stabbing India in the back. Obama did it and yet Modi keeps hugging & pestering him every time they are together on a stage. It looks very annoying.

habal · Post by **habal** » 06 Sep 2016 14:56

Maybe the big stage is too big for him, he needs to relax a bit and get his own aura in place. He is not ready yet for the big boys.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Sep 2016 15:19

I think the message needs to go to Modi that body language in publicly broadcast meetings with foreign heads of state needs to be better managed. No point having his gestures come across as one-sided or unreciprocated...that would not be in keeping with the dignity of his office. Ask the damn IFS to plan things out..

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Sep 2016 17:06

matrimc wrote:Cosmo_R, where is the clean tech? US itself is struggling to fund carbon sequestration.

I don't know but that is part of the Indian 'Ask' for Paris.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Sep 2016 17:08

Hari Seldon wrote:Okie, chaiwala musings and completely unconfirmed at present ....

Seems, Roos might rise to the occasion and test the testy desi leadership by demanding a LEMO(n)OA sorta pact for R&R for Roosi troops and all in the warm waters of the arabian sea....

Why not? Just depends on what we get in return.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Sep 2016 17:16

^^^ RoyG

"The only other benefit I see is that if we are working on designs in secret, we now have better access to simulation technology so they could be more refined. So testing now may actually be better."

What else do we need for weapons we hope never to use? OTOH, all these other agreements bring access to weapons we may have to use e.g. MTCR brings Predators but MTCR is based on getting closer to the US via DTTI which in turn requires yopu guessed it: LEMOA etc.

Also do not underestimate the public reaction from a full nuke test. If we are cringing at the human rights reaction to events in Kashmir, we will curl up after Pokhran III and for what IF we have access to advanced testing techniques?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Sep 2016 17:21

snahata wrote:I applaud the chinese govt for doing what they did to obama. ...

Only thing I would say that if I was in charge I would pay them back exactly in the same coin.

If you're talking about US diplomats in India, I fully agree. They should be subject to the same privileges/obligations/treatment accorded our diplos in the US.

Obama should not figure in it as Modi does not in the US. Every non-Indian citizen arriving in India should be fingerprinted etc.

Rejoicing about Chinese rudeness to a Head of State, is really not an emotion I share.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Sep 2016 17:25

pankajs wrote:Don't we all wish that it were so easy i.e breaking through. One can claim that the current give-take is also an out of the box thinking.

Not as easy as staying within the box, doing exactly the same and getting exactly the same results.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 06 Sep 2016 19:56

India witnessed religiously motivated killings in 2015: US
WASHINGTON: In 2015, India witnessed religiously motivated killings, assaults, coerced religious conversions, riots and actions restricting the right of individuals to change religious beliefs, a US State Department report on religious freedom said today.

"Minority religious groups expressed concerns about government discrimination and suggestions by government officials that Hinduism should be taught in public schools. Government officials at the federal, state, and local level made discriminatory statements against members of religious minority groups," the annual State Department report on International Religious Freedom for the year 2015 said.

"Members of minority groups who were victims of religiously motivated violence or other animus complained of police inaction regarding such incidents," it said, adding that attackers frequently acted with impunity, and, according to some victims, police resisted filing criminal complaints and in several instances threatened to falsely incriminate the victims.

The State Department said religious groups expressed concern about statements by certain government officials suggesting Hinduism should be taught in schools.

"They also complained about police inaction in incidents of violence or hostility against their members and unequal application of some laws by the government. Religious groups reported incidents of hate speech by government officials," the report said.

According to the report, there were reports of religiously motivated killings, assaults, coerced religious conversions, riots, and actions restricting the right of individuals to change religious beliefs.

This happened despite Prime Minister Narendra Modi's pledge that he would ensure "complete freedom of faith" in the country.

This is the first time that the State Department has commented on the status of religious freedom in India with a full year under the Modi government.

"On several occasions, such as at a meeting in February with Christians in New Delhi, Prime Minister Modi publicly stated he would defend religious freedom," the State Department said in its report which documents the allegations of violence against the Christian community in various parts of the country including Punjab.

"Christians who reported that they were victims of religiously-motivated violence or other animus voiced concern about the lack of police action against such incidents, as well as of hostility by the police towards Christians.

"According to the All India Christian Council and the Evangelical Fellowship of India, police resisted filing criminal complaints and had in several instances threatened falsely to incriminate the victims," said the report.

The report said police clashes with Sikh protesters in Punjab led to the death of two protesters.

In the absence of Secretary of State John Kerry, the annual report was released by the Deputy Secretary of State Antony Blinken.

An Indian paidmedia article(paid for by the american evangelicals) on "Freedom to convert the heathens by force report" 2015 released by US state department recently with some nuggets from it.

A recent vomit inducing opinion piece by one John Dayal in Indian paidmedia using the "facts" from above US State department report as the starting point is linked below.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/ ... HsWCP.html

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 07 Sep 2016 10:31

Hillary Clinton Blames Coughing Fit on Donald Trump

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 07 Sep 2016 12:01

http://www.sify.com/news/strategic-blun ... jadgh.html
Strategic blunder or boon? The truth behind new India-US deal
- Major General Mrinal Suman The recently signed Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) between India and the US has been a subject of intense debate in the media. Whereas opponents term it as a sell-out, supporters term LEMOA as a stepping stone for Indias military and economic advancement. According to the official press release of 31 August 2016, LEMOA is a facilitating agreement that establishes basic terms, conditions, and procedures for reciprocal provision of logistic support, supplies, and services between the armed forces of India and the United States. They include food, water, billeting, transportation, petroleum, oils, lubricants, clothing, communication services, medical services, storage services, training services, spare parts and components, repair and maintenance services, calibration services and port services.
An Appraisal of the Agreement LEMOA is an India-specific version of the standard Logistics Support Agreement that the US signs with all its military allies. It took India and the US nearly a decades protracted discussions to agree on the final draft that factors in the concerns of both the parties. However, opponents of LEMOA are faulting the agreement on three counts. Military Bases It is alleged that the agreement allows military bases to the US and carries the risk of sucking India into geo-political disputes. It is a totally false and baseless averment. LEMOA is a logistic agreement and not a military pact. It provides for logistic help only in terms of port calls, joint exercises, training, humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. For all other purposes, decision shall be taken on a case-by-case basis through prior mutual consent. Both parties have the provision of logistic help would either be on reciprocal basis or against cash payment. The press release also revealed the following important features of the agreement:- - Reciprocal logistic support would be used exclusively during authorised port visits, joint exercises, joint training, humanitarian assistance and disaster relief efforts. - Logistics support for any other cooperative efforts shall only be provided on a case-by-case basis through prior mutual consent of the parties, consistent with their respective laws, regulations and policies. -The agreement does not create any obligations on either Party to carry out any joint activity. It does not provide for the establishment of any bases or basing arrangements......
Gautam

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2016 14:12

ET http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 039799.cms

NEW DELHI: The US has linked the future of a joint jet engine development project to a proposal to manufacture American combat aircraft under the Make in India initiative, with Pentagon formally putting all options on the table, including sharing of high-end weapons, radar and power plant technology, during Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's recent visit.

Sources told ET that India will now be able to formally evaluate two proposals from US companies Boeing (F/A 18 Super Hornet) and Lockheed Martin (F16 Super Viper) to make jets in India with Pentagon giving a written assurance for transfer of technology.

A renewed push for the jet aircraft project came during the Parrikar visit, with an assurance that high-end jet engine technology that India seeks for its future combat aircraft programmes is also on the table.

In fact, officials told ET that US Secretary for Defence Ashton Carter may be visiting India as early as December to take the process forward. Sources who took part in the discussions said that while in April, when the two US companies had first offered the two jets for a Make in India plan, there was reluctance in Washington on how much technology could be shared.

However recent initiatives, including India's entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and the signing of a military logistics support agreement, have changed things on the ground.

It is learnt that the offer from Boeing, which makes the F/A 18, is for the setting up of a new worldclass production facility in India that would cater to the production of futuristic combat aircraft.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2016 14:13

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 07 Sep 2016 14:15

US complaining about teaching Hinduism in schools in India is laughable to say the least. I think Indian government should clearly and openly state that learning Hinduism is learning Indian culture for these two are not different and this does not impinge upon religious freedom. One of the key goals of our education policy should be to develop a sense of deep understanding, appreciation and reverence for ancient Indian culture and Spiritual traditions.

This is not something Indian Govt should be on the defensive or play it shy. They should be very vocal on that count.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 07 Sep 2016 14:20

I think if the Boeing or LM fighter planes manufacturing in India is to be reviewed positively, it should come with local making of engine and substantial amount of offsets to local players. India should insist on getting armed predator drones along with any proposal for human piloted planes. Given the terrain and low intensity conflict scenarios, fighter planes may complete entire lifecycle before seeing war, but drones will be put to use day in and day out.

Getting armed drones should be a focus area for India.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Sep 2016 14:39

The contours of transactional relationship (though at a sufficiently high technological level) is being witnessed.
123 Agreement for nuclear reactors, LEMOA for NSG & MTCR, F-16/F-18 for jet engine technology etc.
The US keeps some levers such as intolerance, human rights, religious freedom in its hands