Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[brihaspati]

SwamiG-ji,
a long time ago I think it was Rudradevji (apologies if I am wrong) who asked me why I did not criticize the role of the EJ's that much compared to the Islamists. I bypassed the question by saying that it was tactical position of mine.

The danger that you are talking of is of course there also in the south. As far as faith is considered, however the penetration of the two proselytizing branches are more or less equal in strength. My position is that we can come to conditional compromises with one branch against the other. Once the more dangerous one is finished off, we deal with the remainder. We can do a reconquista more easily with the one I have in mind than the other.

Whatever be the defences of the south that have been "compromised", it still has more civilizational material left to form the crystalline seed compared to the "north".

[Abhi_G]

Brihaspati-ji,
FWIW, the entire gangetic plains provided resources (food and material) for the Mughal army. The fertile agricultural areas of the gangetic plains are therefore of supreme strategic importance. So no retreat is acceptable. We have to hold the fort. Situation is not the same as in the Shivaji's times. It may sound as hypothetical bravado, but not an inch should we retreat.

[brihaspati]

AbhiG-ji,
the Gangetic plains and its resources could not save the Mughal empire. The TSP type economy that I assume will takeover is typically not geared towards maintenance of sophisticated high-yield economies. The economic history of India if properly scanned, will provide the basic failure of both the sultanate and the Mughal empires. They can only survive based on a culture of "loot". Their extreme authoritariansim in theology and therefore thought policing and social control leads to scuppering of intellectual initiative. They treated the Indian producers so badly that peasants simply abandoned their land.

Hardcore Islamism is mortally afraid of modern and open minded education and research, and the society is most comfortable in a feudal setup. Indian productive capacity has now become sophisticated beyond TSP capacities. They will need then PRC and US or other Euro zone experts to maintain them. But even that may not suffice - because it will be politically costly for the other nations, and expansion of TSP may simply mean USA has to commit 15 billion to maintain TSP in power over the Gangetic plain instead of the 1.5 billion it can get by with now.

Sooner or later TSP will destroy the productive capacity of the north out of its own greed, theological straightjackets, and impossibility of international support of the required order. The sultanate destroyed itself, just as Mughals did. Even the Brits probably unwittingly walked the same way to a certain extent - in their need to construct the "racially inferior" Indian who had to be kept repressed and devoid of means to become strong enough to rebel.

[SwamyG]

No, I am not talking just about EJ. It is 'modernism' as well that complicates the picture. The region is not the same that it was 200 years ago. How much of all this is wishful thinking?

[brihaspati]

SwamyG-ji,
there is nothing called wishful thinking. There is only minimal reasonable potential support+unwavering determination and will = achievement of target.

Why does "modernism" have to be a fly in the ointment? Those that are useful, can be retained and used. Those in the way have to be subtly exposed and discredited. The hippies found modernism in the Indian "kurta" (the dress), "ganja" and "jata" (hair) - all should have been obvious symbols of the "ancient", pagan and superstitious "mumbo jumbo"! We never know when searching for the new leads up to the old - like trying to find a new sequence of distinct numbers in a finite group.

I see the "modernism" as a force to be harnessed. Let the younger generations surfeit and gorge on all possible gratifications. They will be ready with their guilt and search for roots at the right time. This will also loosen the hold of family and networks that now binds them to satisfying only family and clan interests and not anything larger in scope.

Every generation thinks that the next few are beyond redemption and that they have caught the "modernist" bug. But great social churrnings are still driven by such modernist and lost-case generations. May I humbly request you to have a little more hope? One of the classes I teach are first years, with an average age gap of 17-18 years say. That makes me quite old! with a very large gen gap. They are as modern as modern can be. But they are as transparent as clear water and as manipulable as unset putty. The right tone of call will change the Indian waywards too. I am immensely confident about their being in the right place when the time arises.

[brihaspati]

BD gov is planning to complain and raise the issue of naval border disputes with India (and Myanmar) at the UN as per BD TV channels. UK probably will be interested in offering to mediate. But another kick on the sides of GOI looks like to be part of the harassing wolf-pack strategy being activated. It goes on in cycles in clockwise direction around the subcontinent. TSP-Kashmir - AP(PRC)- Naxal-now BD. I guess next attack scheduled for the west of India again?

[RayC]

Anbumani Ramadoss is from a Hindu vanniar family.

I had no idea until now that he had something to do with Art. 377.

Thank you for the correction.

I was always under the impression that Dr Ramadoss was a Christian.

He had campaigned for the removal of Article 377 from a medical standpoint, wherein if homosexuality was made legal, it would allow such people to come out in the open and the medical issues involved with homosexuals, like AIDS could be addressed and the health of the Nation made better.



Acharya,

The full text goes as thus:

As there are reported to be over 38,000 Christian denominations,[1] many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable.

Note: Between denominations, theologians, and comparative religionists there are considerable disagreements about which groups can be properly called Christian, disagreements arising primarily from doctrinal differences between groups. For the purpose of simplicity, this list is intended to reflect the self-understanding of each denomination. Explanations of different opinions concerning their status as Christian denominations can be found at their respective articles.

[svinayak]

Acharya,

The full text goes as thus:

Does not matter. In 1777 during the Declaration of Independence there were 1500 different Christian denominations.

[RayC]

If one has to address religion as an input with regards to the ‘Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent’, then to repine that the indigenous religion is being extirpated by alien religions and hence playing a role in destabilising through conversion, it would require an undisguised appraisal.

It would not be a total truism to state that the Indic faith(s)/ sects are handicapped because it does not have any religious edict that promotes conversion. The Arya Samaj (a Hindu sect) has no such qualms in converting people of other faiths to Hinduism as is indicated by this report:

Aged and young queue up before Arya Samaj

Author:
Publication: The New Indian Express
Date: May 9, 2007
URL: http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.as ... 0509041452
Sabeera, a 23-year-old Muslim woman hailing from Meenchanda, will now figure alongside film actresses Lissy and Annie for a crucial decision she took before entering into wedlock with a Hindu man in the neighbourhood.
Following the footsteps of those charming wives of film directors Priyadarsan and Shaji Kailas, Sabeera is in fact the latest applicant at the Kozhikode Arya Samaj, for a conversion to Hinduism.
With an authorisation from the government for issuing certificates of conversion to Hinduism, the Arya Samaj here has converted 4,102 persons to Hinduism since 1986.
Though being watched closely by the Intelligence Bureau (IB) officials for reasons better known to them, about 13 to 15 persons are getting converted to Hinduism at the Samaj in a month over the recent years.
"They are from all age groups, from almost all other religions, and sometimes an entire family would turn up to embrace the ancient dharma," says B Ranaveer Singh, the secretary of the Kozhikode Arya Samaj.
"It's rather a reconversion. A chance for a comeback for those who had left Hinduism to embrace other religions," he asserts.
Conversion to Hinduism had been taking place here ever since the Arya Samaj branch was set up in 1922 by Pandit Rishiram who came here from Punjab.
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0507/40.html

Thus, it proves that Necessity is the Mother of Invention and that none is penitent that the purity of the religious prescriptions has been violated without religious sanction.

Likewise, to deem that Christianity and Islam are monolithic just because their sects follow a common God would be an inaccurate a premise.

Indeed, while all these sects of Christianity agree on a common God and Prophet and likewise with Islam, it would not be wrong to say that agreements is not what brings in the issue of conflict. It is the disagreements that harbinger conflict. And such conflicts enter a serious and even violent realm since none is ready to give way or concede that the other sect is the ‘true’ path to God! If they did concede, then they would become redundant and the temporal powers that they have would vanish. Indeed, if one observes religions, it is the temporal power conflict and not the spiritual that has divided what was once a common religion. It is worth note that Conflicts are more powerful and emotive than the areas of agreement! Hence, to broadbrush the sects as agreeable entities and hence the religions are monolithic and unitary would be an incorrect premise

If indeed Christianity and Islam were one entity in practice, then why are the sects competing with each other over conversion. After all, as per the premise propounded in this thread, they (the sects) have but the same God?

The only religion that claims (as far as my meagre knowledge goes) that subscribe to the ‘One Nation’ theory based on religion, is Islam. Ummat al-mu'minin basically means ‘Community of Believers’ and while it does not mean One Nation in so many words, yet one can stretch that to mean One Nation, depending on what political aim one is pursuing to prove.

Conversion, per se, is not really worrisome in the extreme. What is worrisome of conversions is that it is a ‘strategic tool’. While one may not agree with Samuel P Huntington’s theories expounded in his book, “The Clash of Civilisations and the Remaking of World Order”, yet it is a truism that mankind has always attempted to triumph over other non similar people. Thus, the conversion zeal exhibited by the Tabligh Jamaat or by the US Churches, is but a serious attempt to change or convert ‘others’ to their way of thinking so that they can influence such people and gain control over their Nations indirectly. That (i.e. the end effect), to my mind, is more for concern than the mere act of conversion.

The question is that if some feel that such acts are inimical to the ‘ethoses’ of our country’s social fabric and its sovereignty, then it would not do just to repine that conversions are not in the religious traditions of the Indic faiths. Rather than wallowing in self pity, complaining that the Indic faiths have no funds to compete etc, one must follow the example of the Arya Samaj as also return to the zeal of the Ramakrishna Mission and its attempt to replicate the Christian form of influencing the people by social service through education, hospital and medical assistance and the like. Concrete acts to serve the people in tangible terms have more effect than mere pontificating or through an overdose of religious education. Even in Islam, the horrendous image of Islam some Mussulmans presents to the world today was not there in days before the Mujahideen action against the Soviets. It was only after the fear was instilled that Islam would be wiped out that Islam took a dangerous route and it became worse when the War on Terror was launched and Islam was seen by the Mussulmans, as interpreted by their Mullahs, to be in hasty retreat! Here too, Islam (as a religion) has been used as a ‘strategic tool’ initially by the West and then by the Moslems themselves!

All religions attempt to guide the Believer in a benign path to God. There are of course exhortations that suggest violent (for the want of a better word) means to fight evil and sin. It is those who interpret the religious issues to the adherents, who are the ones who can give the wording a tweak to cause discord and disharmony.

It is the use of religion as a strategic tool which is what one must focus on.

Religion as a Strategic tool is a subject by itself!

JMT



Acharya,

Actually it matters.

The more the denomination, more is the discord and less of that religion being monolithic and an unitary bloc!

Hence the contention that the West is flooding the Churches with funds to convert, while it maybe true, is actually not working towards the cause since it is divided and dissipated to be as effective, which would not have been the case had there been less denominations.

Thus, would it not be a win win for those who find such conversion abhorring?!

[Arjun]

Rather than wallowing in self pity, complaining that the Indic faiths have no funds to compete etc, one must follow the example of the Arya Samaj as also return to the zeal of the Ramakrishna Mission and its attempt to replicate the Christian form of influencing the people by social service through education, hospital and medical assistance and the like. Concrete acts to serve the people in tangible terms have more effect than mere pontificating or through an overdose of religious education.

RayC, you are missing the point here. There is no 'wallowing in self-pity' because Hindus can't compete in the conversion game. I don't know about yours, but at least in my generation ( & I have just entered my forties) the predominant mood as regards competition in any sphere is that Indians (and by ext Indian Hindus) can beat others handily once they jump into it.

The point is that the majority of Hindus as a matter of conviction, don't agree with the notion that it is legitimate to link social service and conversion. The Arya Samaj and other such organizations are exceptions that are still a substintial minority.

The best analogy I can think of is related to my sphere of work in investment banking. The US government passed laws after the dot-com era, to prevent conflict of interests where research analysts published dishonest positive analysis on companies in which they, or related parties, owned shares or were doing investment banking business.

Rather than remove these conflict of interests, are you rather trying to say that the US should have stopped 'pontificating' and allowed banks to compete in whatever manner possible, without heed to conflict of interest?

[RayC]

RayC, you are missing the point here. There is no 'wallowing in self-pity' because Hindus can't compete in the conversion game. I don't know about yours, but at least in my generation ( & I have just entered my forties) the predominant mood as regards competition in any sphere is that Indians (and by ext Indian Hindus) can beat others handily once they jump into it.

The point is that the majority of Hindus as a matter of conviction, don't agree with the notion that it is legitimate to link social service and conversion. The Arya Samaj and other such organizations are exceptions that are still a substintial minority.

The best analogy I can think of is related to my sphere of work in investment banking. The US government passed laws after the dot-com era, to prevent conflict of interests where research analysts published dishonest positive analysis on companies in which they, or related parties, owned shares or were doing investment banking business.

Rather than remove these conflict of interests, are you rather trying to say that the US should have stopped 'pontificating' and allowed banks to compete in whatever manner possible, without heed to conflict of interest?

I don’t think I am missing the point.

If the contention that Indians can beat others handily if they jump into it, is taken as correct, what is stopping them? Over 60 years we have been our own masters. It is laudable and worth note that Generations before those 60 years were helpless since they were not governing their lands. They were practically vassals and yet, in the form of social movements, be it Ramakrishna Mission, Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj et al, they did great work to stop the unabated conversions. It is a wonderment that now that when we are own Masters of our Fate and Captains of our Soul, we have not been able to produce any such leader or organisations to curb conversions and instead lament about Churches having unlimited funds etc etc and require laws to prevent conversions or create law and order problems to attempt to stop it?

If the majority of Hindus as a matter of conviction don’t agree with the notion that is legitimate to link social work with conversion, then so be it. Others are using social service, money and everything feasible to convert and so if the Hindus wish to serve by standing and waiting, they might as well also grin and bear it!

On the suggestion that the solution to so remove the conflict - How do you think the conflict areas can be removed? Do suggest. By law? And is it feasible in today’s world and in India itself where there is such a hue and cry over religious freedom. Indeed, how can this knotty issue be solved?

In my earlier post, I was merely attempting a backgrounder to steer the thread to its title ‘Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent’ since most of the posts had little to do with the future strategic scenario and instead were emotional and full of anguish (or so I construed) over how the indigenous faith was under the threat of extinction because of the conversion activities.

My aim was not to discuss religion per se, but to focus on the use of religion as a ‘strategic weapon’. I presume the spread of Hinduism across the Ocean in the days of yore was achieving the same purpose.

It intrigues me that if conversion is not there as an edict in the religious texts of Hinduism, how is it that it was flourishing and still is as in Bali and which suggests that Hinduism was widespread all over South East Asia as also as far as Afghanistan. Were they all Hindus by birth?

[brihaspati]

RayC wrote
Thus, the conversion zeal exhibited by the Tabligh Jamaat or by the US Churches, is but a serious attempt to change or convert ‘others’ to their way of thinking so that they can influence such people and gain control over their Nations indirectly. That (i.e. the end effect), to my mind, is more for concern than the mere act of conversion.

This is indeed the crux of the "concern". But this is not the only one and the processes themselves are of concern also.

Indeed, if one observes religions, it is the temporal power conflict and not the spiritual that has divided what was once a common religion.

Is this logic applicable to "Hinduism" also? Apparently historians deny the existence of any common origin exactly because of the existence of these competing sects!

In fact history of evolution of most religions, especially that of the Abrahamic shows, that they were not necessarily monolithic to start with and that there were competing strands of belief even from the very beginning. Even before crystallization, the Paulites differed from Josephites. The former differed strongly from the latter over issues crucial to the then Judaic practices. Then there were other sects with their own interpretations of the life and events around Jesus - like the Gnostics, Nestorians etc. It was only the ruthless rashtra sponsored hammering out a consensus under Constantine (who himself again did not poractice what he approved as the final core text of gospels) for imperial control purposes with substantial censoring and crushing of non-conformists.

It is worth note that Conflicts are more powerful and emotive than the areas of agreement! Hence, to broadbrush the sects as agreeable entities and hence the religions are monolithic and unitary would be an incorrect premise

The question of internal conflicts over certain issues to claim predominance of religious authority and hence power should not be confused with the attitude towards "conquest" of the non-believer. What matters is whether all those fine inner conflicts over theological hair splitting that can potentially empower one sect over another in claiming superiority - whether that dispute extends to conquering, subjugating and harnessing for power of the "non-believer" and other "nations". Do the sects within Christianity who bitterly may fight over when Sabbath should be observed, differ in their attitude to converting and hence gaining power and influence over other "nations"?

RayC, I have quite close observation channels within Christian missionaries in the east and north-east. I do keep a track of their ecclestiacal disputes and confrontations. Hardly any of that ever reaches their Indian flock. The common Christian convert hardly has access to the body of literature on Christian disputes, and the necessary background knowledge of ME history and academic sources on the Abrahamic schools. Competition at the ground level does not take theological forms, it takes the form of involvement in local politics and extracting benefits and concessions from the rashtra. Attempts have been made to use these fractures to push back the EJ. Every time it is this or that component of the rashtra or some "national" level political grouping and might, that intervenes to protect the existing EJ power. So it now also becomes a question of defeating the political forces that uses the rashtryia setup to protect the EJ's. You are probably not aware of the degree of frustration that exists among a wide section of the lower order "native" clergy who can now neither come out (yes there are severe consequences - militants "might" kill them, or their family houses could catch fire, or their loved and dependent ones meeting with accidents - and things could even go wrong at the dead of night within the convents and cloisters) and on the other hand are deeply disappointed with the actual shenanigans of what they were initially told to be the true "mission".

Even in Islam, the horrendous image of Islam some Mussulmans presents to the world today was not there in days before the Mujahideen action against the Soviets. It was only after the fear was instilled that Islam would be wiped out that Islam took a dangerous route and it became worse when the War on Terror was launched and Islam was seen by the Mussulmans, as interpreted by their Mullahs, to be in hasty retreat! Here too, Islam (as a religion) has been used as a ‘strategic tool’ initially by the West and then by the Moslems themselves!

Sorry! what history have you been reading? the "horrendous" image was there right from the beginning! Their own narratives speak of it almost within the first century of Islam's advent. So much so that, some of the "respected" early Muslim theologians actually felt the need to dispute the records of extreme sadism and cruelty - as they felt it projected a "wrong image". Signficantly most of these sanitizers were from "conquered" cultures with much earlier and more sophisticated civilizational value-system than the desert Arabs. But even they felt that some of the narratives were so "true" and well-known that the history "could not be retold" with modifications and they retained those. You only have to compare the earlier unedited versions and the later translated and edited versions - obviously meant for the "other".

Problem is that it is the sanitized propaganda that reaches out to the "other", and the core texts with their sadism intertwined are simultaneopusly maintained for training and preparing those seen fit to carry on the true purpose and aim of the "ummah" leadership. The fear of "Islam being wiped" off is equated in Islamic theologian minds with "having to stop jihad and conquering all world". This theme is not fresh from the Soviet presence in AFG. Look back. This slogan was raised whenever the theologians felt that their expansion was being resisted. They did this when they were thwarted in Spain. They did this when they were stopped or challenged by the crusaders in their consolidation of the eastern Mediterranean. They did this again when the Ottoman expansion into Europe was challenged. In India this slogan of "Islam khatrein me hain" was repeatedly raised from the time of Sultanate and even in Mughal times whenever the unadulterated sadism of the theologians and their state sponsors was resisted or obstructed. Any culture that has resisted and survived to a certain extent the Islamic expansion onslaught, have memories of the "horrendous" nature of Islamic expansion.

Islam as a strategic tool was first used and continued to be used by Islamic theologians and leaders themselves. The west only used the more primitive and aggressive core belief system (that was usually covered in layers of obfuscation and sanitization in more civilized settings but never entirely denied or deleted) existing in ME to counter and breakup the Ottoman empire and protect their IOR interests.

All religions attempt to guide the Believer in a benign path to God. There are of course exhortations that suggest violent (for the want of a better word) means to fight evil and sin. It is those who interpret the religious issues to the adherents, who are the ones who can give the wording a tweak to cause discord and disharmony.
It is the use of religion as a strategic tool which is what one must focus on.
Religion as a Strategic tool is a subject by itself!

Disagree. Violent means have not only been urged to fight evil and sin, it has been urged as a core process of expansion of the "faith". I can specifically quote from core texts to show that there are specific precedence and conditions under which the option of "converting to the faith" was not to be given to the post-puberty men of communities subjected to jihad - they simply have to be executed. There is also quote from the prophet himself, that says that after his time there was no more simple migrations or "hijras" but any movement by Muslims was a "jihad".

Some religions are by their very formation strategic tools - no need to qualify them as being benign which can be used as a "violent tool".

[brihaspati]

But RayC, your essential point is still something we already talked about before in this thread. The potential for religions which claim their cultural centre to be outside of India in nations which have not always been civilkizationally, militarily or poolitically favourable to India - to serve as tools as well as driving motivation for inperialism, is a serious concern.

But to deal with that, we then also need to explore the cultural elements through which they can weaken the resistance of Indian society to such imperialism. This is where it goes beyond the mere political or military. We need to then identify, that if they indeed weaken resistance towards imperialist expansion plans - how do they prepare the minds of their convertees? What exactly are the cultural elements that they can instil which potentially weakens the resolve of an Indian to resist aggression or control by nations outside of India?

The most obvious ones are perhaps a false belief and impression that those who share in the proselytizing faith have "good intentions" in whatever they do. Which could lead to lowering of guard and banishing a healthy dose of suspicion of real intent towards India by the nations where the faith dominates. Ironically the more benevolent they appear, greater will be the risk of confusion.

[Abhi_G]

AbhiG-ji,
the Gangetic plains and its resources could not save the Mughal empire. The TSP type economy that I assume will takeover is typically not geared towards maintenance of sophisticated high-yield economies. The economic history of India if properly scanned, will provide the basic failure of both the sultanate and the Mughal empires. They can only survive based on a culture of "loot". Their extreme authoritariansim in theology and therefore thought policing and social control leads to scuppering of intellectual initiative. They treated the Indian producers so badly that peasants simply abandoned their land.

Hardcore Islamism is mortally afraid of modern and open minded education and research, and the society is most comfortable in a feudal setup. Indian productive capacity has now become sophisticated beyond TSP capacities. They will need then PRC and US or other Euro zone experts to maintain them. But even that may not suffice - because it will be politically costly for the other nations, and expansion of TSP may simply mean USA has to commit 15 billion to maintain TSP in power over the Gangetic plain instead of the 1.5 billion it can get by with now.

Sooner or later TSP will destroy the productive capacity of the north out of its own greed, theological straightjackets, and impossibility of international support of the required order. The sultanate destroyed itself, just as Mughals did. Even the Brits probably unwittingly walked the same way to a certain extent - in their need to construct the "racially inferior" Indian who had to be kept repressed and devoid of means to become strong enough to rebel.

Brihaspati,

This is precisely that I am talking about. The amount of loot by the Mughals and after that by the brits left us a destitute nation, something from which we have not recovered fully EVEN NOW. Why should we allow the "compromisers" to do that once again? Why talk about retreat to the south? That is a self goal. If the battle is for the Gangetic plains that causes uninhibited dreams of sadistic delight for the Islamist imperialist, then let the battle take place there. Not a single ancient temple in its original architectural form remains in North India. Those memories are not lost yet even though there is certainly a very strong whitewashing action going on. Seriously, would we once again want the old mughlai order to come back? I do not know if you are inferring by the whims of the degraded "dilli" wkk elites. But what about the common folks? Are they ready for a compromise that brings back the extreme feudal culture that pervades paki lands and Afghanistan. I may be wrong but it does not seem that the public will just give in just like that.

[Arjun]

If the contention that Indians can beat others handily if they jump into it, is taken as correct, what is stopping them? Over 60 years we have been our own masters. It is laudable and worth note that Generations before those 60 years were helpless since they were not governing their lands. They were practically vassals and yet, in the form of social movements, be it Ramakrishna Mission, Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj et al, they did great work to stop the unabated conversions. It is a wonderment that now that when we are own Masters of our Fate and Captains of our Soul, we have not been able to produce any such leader or organisations to curb conversions and instead lament about Churches having unlimited funds etc etc and require laws to prevent conversions or create law and order problems to attempt to stop it?

Indic faiths certainly can learn from the Abrahamics and adopt principles like charity, egalitarianism and stress on social service far more strongly. This is very necessary - & I don't have a problem with that.

My issue was that I have frequently seen this being used as a stick to use whenever the EJ problem is discussed, and in some cases used as a justification for EJ activity. This attitude of 'Why whine about EJs, go out and do the same as they do..' is not acceptable. While adopting the positive aspects, the on-balance negative and political aspect of exclusivist EJism needs to be constantly highlighted. This is a scourge that needs to be eliminated.

The purpose of religion has historically been three-fold: (i) to infuse a set of morals in society (ii) faith in some higher being is very important for most people to get through the ups and downs of life. The second purpose of religion is to provide this faith & (iii) Religion has been used most often to bring about homogeniety in society in terms of customs, rituals, beliefs and other aspects. People are most comfortable around others who are similar to them in background and hence the attempt to bring about homogeniety in these aspects.

This third aspect is strongest in the Abrahamic religions and is the least emphasised on in Hinduism. This third purpose goes against the grain of the Indic value system, and is against our ethos. Indians are comfortable with diversity, and are not threatened by it in the same manner as the Abrahamics. Indics therefore have to take the lead in getting this third aspect of religion eliminated. If this third aspect of religion is eliminated, then obviously there would not be a need for conversions.

This whole argument might sound highly idealistic, but I believe it needs to be evangelized parallely with trying to reform the Indic faiths / counter-conversions etc. Ironically, I would start this evangelization process in the US rather than in India. The US is a genuinely progressive nation where such concepts can sell if communicated properly. India is currently in follower mode, and will show enthusiasm for 'idealistic' concepts only if it has a stamp of approval from the West.

[brihaspati]

Abhi_G,
from time to time, the "Gangetic plains" goes into fracture and self-destruct mode. Perhaps this is a natural fallout of being lucrative and "rich". It attracts not only honest workers but also opportunists and flattering courtiers. Because of so much "loose cash" going around, the "bania-mentality" (coining which has earned me quite a bad name ) develops in some of the key role players.

We simply may not have a choice. We already see the precursors of claims of extreme "tolerance" in the plains. Any subidentity that can fracture and divert from convergence gets encouraged.

[svinayak]

The more the denomination, more is the discord and less of that religion being monolithic and an unitary bloc!

Me and you agree on this completely.

Hence the contention that the West is flooding the Churches with funds to convert, while it maybe true, is actually not working towards the cause since it is divided and dissipated to be as effective, which would not have been the case had there been less denominations.

It does not work that way. Each of the large denominations have huge funds - $15B - $50B that they have lot more influence individually and they total upto $150B in conversion money. Only 4-5 denominations have global ambitions and have built a network over centuries. Catholic order is the most well known denomination.

[svinayak]

My issue was that I have frequently seen this being used as a stick to use whenever the EJ problem is discussed, and in some cases used as a justification for EJ activity. This attitude of 'Why whine about EJs, go out and do the same as they do..' is not acceptable. This is a scourge that needs to be eliminated.

This is the colonial education which is talking. We have an entire educated population which looks at inside India from a western point of view.

[RayC]

Hence the contention that the West is flooding the Churches with funds to convert, while it maybe true, is actually not working towards the cause since it is divided and dissipated to be as effective, which would not have been the case had there been less denominations.

It does not work that way. Each of the large denominations have huge funds - $15B - $50B that they have lot more influence individually and they total upto $150B in conversion money. Only 4-5 denominations have global ambitions and have built a network over centuries. Catholic order is the most well known denomination.

How are they doing so?

If the GOI does not have mechanism or desire to check such flow of funds or have the mechanism to stop hawala, then those who are interested will surely take advantage. Wouldn't they?

So what is the remedy? None are suggesting that.

We are all roaming the ethereal realm, ambling into high philosophy and then merely breast beating! Will that solve the issue?

What is the practical answer to all this?

I feel that the best way to do it, is to replicate them and do better.

Arjun wrote:

My issue was that I have frequently seen this being used as a stick to use whenever the EJ problem is discussed, and in some cases used as a justification for EJ activity. This attitude of 'Why whine about EJs, go out and do the same as they do..' is not acceptable. This is a scourge that needs to be eliminated.

This is the colonial education which is talking. We have an entire educated population which looks at inside India from a western point of view.

No, it is not because of colonial education or an entire educated population that looks at inside India from a western point of view. The implied meaning I take it means the English medium educated, which normally are Christian run. I would be surprised if being educated in English medium or Christian schools in any way diminishes the loyalty for the nation and its interest. It must also be realised that education is also from the parents and who not necessarily were from English medum schools.

Indeed, why whine about Evangelists. They are doing their job and they are allowed to do so, to include funding, by the very same Govt that you are voting for! So, why whine, breast beat and complain?

Such evangelists were doing the same thing even when the right wing, BJP govt was functioning. And the RSS has not been gagged ever since the ban had been lifted.

Therefore, since it appears that all are lazy or indifferent, these evangelists will have a field day and it has nothing to do with "having an entire educated population which looks at inside India from a western point of view."

OK, so what is the practical way to stop conversions? Any practical ideas?

[RayC]

Stop organised conversion

Pope Benedict XVI is reported to have raised the question of religious freedom in India at a recent meeting with the ndian
ambassador to the Vatican.

Freedom of religion is the freedom to maintain one's religion or to change it without being subjected to any pressure or inducement. Freedom of religion is protected by the Indian Constitution and is enshrined in the Universal Proselytism is defined as the use of unscrupulous methods of persuasion such as material inducements, psychological pressure or spiritual threats to compel a person to change his or her religion.

Proselytism is opposed on several grounds — it attacks other religious beliefs and practices and proclaims that its own religion is the only way to salvation.

It is often supported by financial resources and marketing techniques that make local religions seem second rate and inferior. The Catholic Church condemns proselytising activities. Pope John Paul II often called the Evangelical sects in Christianity "rapacious wolves devouring Catholics and causing divisions and discord in our communities".

He stressed the danger of underestimating "a certain strategy employing notable economic resources to crack Catholic unity". The issue of conversions has again become a major issue in India. In some tribal areas, Christian and Hindu missionaries confront each other.

Organised attempts at mass conversion or reconversion backed by financial and political power can have an explosive backlash to the point of undermining public order.

Mainline Christian theologians see both the sangh parivar's Hindutva ideology and Christian campaigns for evangelisation in India as a fundamentalist attitude and an aggressive method to achieve their respective goals.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/opin ... 621240.cms

Read the full article and see how it lull the non Christian into self delusion and thus the eye of the storm.

It is time to learn psychology and apply the same!

Those who understand Psy Ops will see the expertise with which it is being applied!

My interest in this subject lies in the 'military' aspect of the issue - strategic tool and psy ops!

[Sanku]

I have serious concerns with the loss of Northern core as something, either acceptable or nice, I further have issues with the casual acceptance of it coming true.

The Northern plains could not save the Mughals true, but their loss also in turn resulted in loss of Vijayanagar and later the same forces could be harnassed to destroy the Sikh rule as well as Marathas

In short, no short of complete annihilation of north, including most of Punjab and Bengal through a sustained Nuclear holocaust, that area is too rich in men and materials to be just left to go.

Secondly, I also strongly disagree with that part giving up to the external influence easily, a casual reading of 1857 is telling in terms of the energy and forces that can easily be unleashed in that area.

To think that area has lost its strength would be a severe mistake, yes there are issues there, many and as I said before they can be traced to a set of consequences including that the actions by Nehru. However, that can be reversed too.

The think to understand is that there is a breakdown between different sections of population, engineered by the ruling classes and also a breakdown between the elite and the regular folks. However as things are changing rapidly, new elites coming up older elites dying out and becoming regular folk its not all the same as before.

The ground is being tilled by the forces of history and its very fertile right now -- do not think that the avg Indic in those parts has given up or things are forgotten, all it needs is a Modi like figure there (note Gujarat was also rapidly unraveling -- despite all its strengths before Modi came on scene)

[RayC]

This thread is titled - Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent.

So far, one has not seen any aspect of ‘strategy’ or ‘future’ in this thread, though much has been said about evangelism and its ugly head. It has mostly been on Christian evangelism and posters have not given adequate emphasis on the Islamic evangelism, possibly because it is closer home than Christianity and our enslavement by the British is closer to time than that of the Mughals.

What is Indic faiths? Hinduism? Is it Aryan or Dravidian? Is the Dravidian civilisation the same as Harappan civilisation? If not, were Dravidians and Harappans Hindus? If so, how? Was there an Aryan invasion that brought Hinduism? One wonders if Aryans and Dravidians had the same religion or faith given the massive spatial difference and the lack of modern communication systems! Is the Aryan invasion of India (or whatever it was called then) a theory we can base on or is it a myth? So many questions without an answer that is universally accepted.

However, whatever were the faiths practiced then in the geographical entity called India today, it is accepted. I presume because they were too distant in time to affect and possibly they were not the faiths imposed by the conquerors! Just a thought though, since I am no ancient Indian historian.

Islam and Christianity are religions of the conqueror and each in their own way – violent, coercive, or subtle with allurement and psy ops have managed to imprint themselves on the indigenous people and converted them to their way of life and philosophy (some of such philosophy runs counter to the indigenous philosophy). The reason for such conversion is not hard to find. Having converted people to be like minded, ruling became easier. Pragmatically observed without emotion and anger, it is what any conqueror would do. It might be added that indigenous people were easy to convert because of the restrictive and unequal status that the indigenous faiths imposed. Yet, at the same time, many of those who were better off in status also converted for high ideals that apparently were being espoused by the alien religion.

Now that India has become independent and there is no foreign ruler, it is natural that those indigenous people who managed to hold on to their faith in spite of pressures and enticement of the rulers and who are the majority to exert themselves and feel frustrated when they find their own govt, which they voted in with regularity since Independence, is still permitting the diminishing of their ranks.

With all humility at my command, I would disagree that there is a sizeable majority amongst the populace that find western ways and ideals better and so they are some sort of quislings! Even if such people are attracted to the western ways, one would hardly expect the majority to sell their national interests and their Nation to slavery once again. They realise the exotic breath of freedom too!

It must be honestly seen. The problem is not with the foreign evangelists or the Islamic evangelists. The problem is, without realising it so, the strategic intent that is behind such conversions.

Will be become slaves again – may not be in the classical sense, but in content of our mind and then pander to the whims and interest of those who have changed the mindset!

That is what is the worry of those who fret over conversion without realising what irks them!

Indeed, if that be so, what is the antidote - the answer?

[RayC]

Sanku,

Forget history and the follies.

Look to the present.

What is the answer?

All can tread the philosophical and ethereal path and pontificate.

What is the answer in CONCRETE terms?

I seek answers not because I am Christian school educated sold to western ideas. It is just that I would like to know the answers and not indulge in philosophy and 'intellectual' mumbo jumbo that impress but fails to get to the nub of the problem, if indeed it is a problem!

I saw a Jerry Lewis film long back and I always remember one dialogue - cut the gas and get on with the order! And I am not singling you out either! It is to all!

I seek answers and not high flaunting stuff! That does not solve the issue!

[RayC]

Hinduism is unique among the world religions in that it has no founder or date of origin. While most major religions derive from new ideas taught by a charismatic leader, Hinduism is simply the religion of the people of India, which has gradually developed over four thousand years. The origins and authors of its sacred texts are largely unknown.

Although today's Hinduism differs significantly from earlier forms of Indian religion, Hinduism's roots date back as far as 2000 BC, making it one of the oldest surviving religions. Because of its great age, the early history of Hinduism is unclear. The most ancient writings have yet to be deciphered, so for the earliest periods scholars must rely on educated guesses based on archaeology and the study of contemporary texts.

In the last few decades, the history of India's religion has also become a matter of political controversy. The history of any nation (or individual) is an important part of its self-identity, and this is especially true of India, which so recently gained independence after centuries of colonial rule. The controversy over India's history centres on the origin of the Aryan culture, as we shall see in more detail below.
The Indus River Valley Civilization

In 1921, archaeologists uncovered evidence of an ancient civilization along the Indus River, which today runs through northwest India into Pakistan. The so-called Indus Valley civilization (also known as the "Harappan civilization" for one of its chief cities) is thought to have originated as early as 7000 BC and to have reached is height between 2300 to 2000 BC, at which point it encompassed over 750,000 square miles and traded with Mesopotamia.

Some writings of this period has been discovered, but unfortunately in such small amounts that they have yet to be deciphered. Knowledge of this great civilization's religion must therefore be based on physical evidence alone. Baths have been found that may indicate ritual bathing, a component of modern Hinduism. Some altar-like structures may be evidence of animal sacrifice, and terracotta figures may represent deities. An important seal features a horned figure surrounded by animals, which some conjecture is a prototype of Shiva, but it could be a bull parallel to that found on Mesopotamian seals.
The Controversial Aryans

The Indus Valley culture began to decline around 1800 BC, due possibly to flooding or drought. Until recently, it was held that the Aryans (an Indo-European culture whose name comes from the Sanskrit for "noble")[3] invaded India and Iran at this time. According to this hypothesis, both the Sanskrit language and the Vedic religion foundational to Hinduism is attributable to the Aryans and their descendants. The original inhabitants of the Indus Valley are thought to have had a Dravidian language and culture, which became subordinate to that of the invading peoples.

Proponents of this hypothesis point to similarities between Zoroastrianism (the ancient religion of Iran) and the Vedic religion of ancient India, as well as similar finds in ancient cemeteries in modern-day India and Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. In addition, no trace of horses or chariots have been found in the remains of the Indus Valley culture, but were central to Aryan military and ritual life.

Since the 1980s, this "Aryan Invasion" hypothesis has been strongly challenged as a myth propagated by colonial scholars who sought to reinforce the idea that anything valuable in India must have come from elsewhere. Critics of the hypothesis note that there is lack of evidence of any conquest, among other historical and archaeological problems.

One alternative hypothesis is explained by Encyclopædia Britannica as follows:

Between about 2000 and 1500 BCE not an invasion but a continuing spread of Indo-Aryan speakers occurred, carrying them much farther into India, to the east and south, and coinciding with a growing cultural interaction between the native population and the new arrivals. From these processes a new cultural synthesis emerged, giving rise by the end of the 2nd millennium to the conscious expressions of Aryan ethnicity found in the Rigveda, particularly in the later hymns.[4]

The 19th-century Aryan Invasion theory has generally been abandoned as inaccurate, but most scholars do not reject the notion of some outside influence on the Indus Valley civilization. For many, it is a political issue as well as a historical one, with the original theory is regarded as racist and offensive. BBC Religion & Ethics summarizes the matter this way:

Many people argue that there is now evidence to show that Muller [original proponent of the hypothesis], and those who followed him, were wrong. Others, however, believe that the case against the Aryan invasion theory is far from conclusive. The matter remains very controversial and highly politicised.[5]

The remainder of this article is under construction.
References

1. "History of Hinduism." Encyclopædia Britannica (Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service, 2004).
2. "Indian Religions and the Hindu Tradition" The Cambridge Illustrated History of Religions (Cambridge University Press, 2002).
3. "Aryan." Encyclopædia Britannica (Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service, 2009).
4. "India » History » India from the Paleolithic Period to the decline of the Indus civilization » Post-Harappan developments » The appearance of Indo-Aryan speakers." Encyclopædia Britannica (Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service, 2009).
5. "Hinduism: History: Aryan Invasion Theory" - BBC Religion & Ethics
http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/history.htm

[Sanku]

Look to the present.

What is the answer?

Thats a open question, the answer to which I take to mean the steps we need to take will depend on to whom you are asking the question (1) Individual, (2) Non GoI bodies (3) Society in general (4) Indian state.

For each of them there would be different answers, but there is one thing that is common.

(1) The Individual is bed rock of each of them.

So what would I like an Indian individual to do
1) Be Indian -- discard the western mindset of Aryan, Dravidian etc etc.. Yes I know those externally inflicted divides exist, however we as Indians must be so total in their rejection that those dont even cross our mind when we speak. There is difference between knowing there is wrong and being a part of it.

2) Support a political system or party which delivers on the basic core values. Any entity which seeks to perpetuate and grow Indian systems is good period, it may not be party A or B (a party A or B also changes) but support the actions which are good for India (RSS came out in support of force measures by P Chidambaram against Naxals) Try and support those who reform the constitution and Indian penal code from their messy status.

3) Be extremely vocal for India and try and spread the word to the best of Individual capability.

4) Support with either time or money any NGO which seeks to help the Indian cause.

These are the foundation elements the rest would be built on there, without the foundation any list of "we must do the following" for more complex entities (which I can provide from my PoV too) will not have enough leverage.

[Sanku]

Hinduism is unique among the world religions in that it has no founder or date of origin. While most major religions derive from new ideas taught by a charismatic leader, Hinduism is simply the religion of the people of India, which has gradually developed over four thousand years. The origins and authors of its sacred texts are largely unknown.

This is a good example of a totally false non Indian world view imposition on India.

We know at least one data point for sure, the Mahabharat war was fought in 3000 BCE. Any understanding of India must be based around this data point.

Unless we stop persisting with such myths, we will never get anywhere. The basics have to be right.

[RayC]

Hinduism is unique among the world religions in that it has no founder or date of origin. While most major religions derive from new ideas taught by a charismatic leader, Hinduism is simply the religion of the people of India, which has gradually developed over four thousand years. The origins and authors of its sacred texts are largely unknown.

This is a good example of a totally false non Indian world view imposition on India.

We know at least one data point for sure, the Mahabharat war was fought in 3000 BCE. Any understanding of India must be based around this data point.

Unless we stop persisting with such myths, we will never get anywhere. The basics have to be right.

The oldest known Greek literary sources, the epic poems Iliad and Odyssey, focus on events surrounding the Trojan War. Two poems by Homer's near contemporary Hesiod, the Theogony and the Works and Days, contain accounts of the genesis of the world, the succession of divine rulers, the succession of human ages, the origin of human woes, and the origin of sacrificial practices. Myths also are preserved in the Homeric Hymns, in fragments of epic poems of the Epic Cycle, in lyric poems, in the works of the tragedians of the fifth century BC, in writings of scholars and poets of the Hellenistic Age and in texts from the time of the Roman Empire by writers such as Plutarch and Pausanias.

So they should also be taken as authentic history. Right?

Myths and legends are no history, no matter how close to one’s hear t they maybe.

The Earth is also flat, right?!


Without historical facts and more importantly proof, they are but myth and legends, even if they serve a good moral purpose!

[Sanku]

So they should also be taken as authentic history. Right?

This is pure rhetoric. If I say Gandhi was a nationalist and a good man, you can say Hilter was also a nationalist so he must be a good man too.

The above description of so called "Hinduism" is inaccurate on so many levels that it is not even funny. I just posted the most obvious part, a very glaring mistake in correct dating of Indian culture.

And, yes proofs should exist, unfortunately all sorts of babble by the westerns (such as the posted article) was never examined for proof of correctness but the claims by Indians who seek to take charge of their narrative are always put to this test.

No matter -- owing to the small point of Indians actually being right in their reconstructions the proofs are easier to come by (for Mahabhartha refer to astronomic dating for example -- some other proofs were also listed in the distorted history thread)

Finally you might be surprised if you start looking for proofs of Illiad and Odessy -- suffice to say, Homer was not as imaginative as he is given credit for.

[RayC]

Look to the present.

What is the answer?

Thats a open question, the answer to which I take to mean the steps we need to take will depend on to whom you are asking the question (1) Individual, (2) Non GoI bodies (3) Society in general (4) Indian state.

For each of them there would be different answers, but there is one thing that is common.

(1) The Individual is bed rock of each of them.

So what would I like an Indian individual to do
1) Be Indian -- discard the western mindset of Aryan, Dravidian etc etc.. Yes I know those externally inflicted divides exist, however we as Indians must be so total in their rejection that those dont even cross our mind when we speak. There is difference between knowing there is wrong and being a part of it.

2) Support a political system or party which delivers on the basic core values. Any entity which seeks to perpetuate and grow Indian systems is good period, it may not be party A or B (a party A or B also changes) but support the actions which are good for India (RSS came out in support of force measures by P Chidambaram against Naxals) Try and support those who reform the constitution and Indian penal code from their messy status.

3) Be extremely vocal for India and try and spread the word to the best of Individual capability.

4) Support with either time or money any NGO which seeks to help the Indian cause.

These are the foundation elements the rest would be built on there, without the foundation any list of "we must do the following" for more complex entities (which I can provide from my PoV too) will not have enough leverage.

Sanku,

Let us not obfuscate and avoid openly admitting that one has no clue owing to the circumstance prevailing beyond anyone’s power to change! Let’s not indulge in philosophical day dreams that cannot change the status quo even though they uplift one’s image in society as ‘’great thinkers’’!

It is a clever ploy to avoid catching the bull by the horn. What exactly do you mean by ‘depend on to whom you are asking the question (1) Individual, (2) Non GoI bodies (3) Society in general (4) Indian state.’

Enough of beating around the bush! Do you feel individuals can change the situation? Or NGOs and who the Dickens are the NGOs to decide for the country? Is it that difficult to realise it is the ‘society’ that you number as third choice that is what matters? Govt or Indian State? If they could have done so, they would have done it! Why are you trying to avoid reality and going round and round like Tony Lumpkin?

There is NO different answer. The issue is simple. Religion is being used as a ‘strategic weapon’ and a vast majority are of the opinion, like Acharya, that it is destabilising the social fabric and interest of India!

As an Indian, I will be honest to confess you can to fanny adams!

Shed the distinction of Dravidian and Aryan and think Indian? Agreed. Therefore, before we stop the evangelists of Christians and Islamists, should we not approach Karunanidhi and Raj Thakeray and his uncle? I believe they are Hindus. If they don’t accept you as theirs, then what is all this data points you are alluding to?

There are no political parties that are concerned of what you claim as ‘core values’.

This are what should be done, but then they are pipedreams!


’

[RayC]

This is pure rhetoric.

Sanku,

Anything better than daydreams?

Mahabharat and Ramayana are history or myths?

Forget about the 'babbles' of the westerners. Give historical proof of Indian mythology

[shravan]

[
So they should also be taken as authentic history. Right?

Myths and legends are no history, no matter how close to one’s hear t they maybe.

Sir,

INTERNAL CONSISTENCY OF ECLIPSES AND PLANETARY POSITIONS IN MAHÄBHÄRATA PDF File
Indian Journal of History of Science, 38.2 (2003) 77-115

R N Iyengar*
(Received 8 August 2002 ; revised 9 December 2002)

The ancient intellectual tradition of India holds that the epic
Mahäbhärata reports part of its national history. However historicity of key personalities like Krsna has depended more on an unbroken tradition, rather than on archaeological evidences. The single most important physical source available for present-day study is the text of Mahäbhärata itself. It is unlikely that later reciters and copyists of the epic would have tampered with descriptions of natural phenomena like eclipses, even though transcription and transmission errors cannot be ruled out.

Hence, such celestial observations would become the most important
physical evidences if they can be scientifically investigated and dated. Planetarium softwares are powerful tools for computer-based searching of thousands of possibilities and for sifting through obscure texts on celestial events. Such an exercise in archaeo-astronomy leads us to the conclusion that the eclipses and planetary observations of Mahäbhärata should belong to the period 1493 BC-1443 BC of Indian history.
.
.
INTERNAL CONSISTENCY OF ECLIPSES AND PLANETARY POSITIONS IN MAHÄBHÄRATA PDF File

[RayC]

INTERNAL CONSISTENCY OF ECLIPSES AND PLANETARY POSITIONS IN MAHÄBHÄRATA

Now if that is perfect, what is our future?

Predict!

[Sanku]

Let us not obfuscate and avoid openly admitting that one has no clue owing to the circumstance prevailing beyond anyone’s power to change! Let’s not indulge in philosophical day dreams that cannot change the status quo even though they uplift one’s image in society as ‘’great thinkers’’!

RayC, I have no clue what in my post has provoked such a fuming reply.

I have clearly outlined that at different levels there will be different solutions, and have outlined Individual efforts.

Nothing in your post seems to indicate that you have even tried to understand what I said.

So
1) No I very much have a clue -- I am pretty sure I know the way things will be fixed (disclaimer -- I can be wrong, that is the way that I talk about may not give results, but I am confident that it will work)

2) I am not saying that this is the only solution, nor am saying that my solution will definitely be put into practice by Indians.

However
1) Yes an individual can make a difference -- he or she can do that in a limited way.

2) A group of Individual working together will have a bigger impact -- yet for that enough individuals need to "see"

That is it. Simple as that.

[Sanku]

[
So they should also be taken as authentic history. Right?

Myths and legends are no history, no matter how close to one’s hear t they maybe.

Sir,

INTERNAL CONSISTENCY OF ECLIPSES AND PLANETARY POSITIONS IN MAHÄBHÄRATA PDF File
Indian Journal of History of Science, 38.2 (2003) 77-115

Sharvan, IMVHO the most stunning work has been done by Shri Narahari Achar, as following

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/collo ... hari01.htm

http://sarasvati96.googlepages.com/recl ... uly2006%29

[Sanku]

INTERNAL CONSISTENCY OF ECLIPSES AND PLANETARY POSITIONS IN MAHÄBHÄRATA

Now if that is perfect, what is our future?

Predict!

You can find fairly accurate prediction of movement and future of heavenly bodies in any standard astronomy text.

Is this what you were looking for?

[brihaspati]

RayC wrote
This thread is titled - Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent.

So far, one has not seen any aspect of ‘strategy’ or ‘future’ in this thread, though much has been said about evangelism and its ugly head. It has mostly been on Christian evangelism and posters have not given adequate emphasis on the Islamic evangelism, possibly because it is closer home than Christianity and our enslavement by the British is closer to time than that of the Mughals.

I think there have been page after page of discussing strategies and objectives and justifications for expansion (or no expansion) territorially, militarily and culturally beyond the current political boundaries of India. There have similarly been discussions on trajectories of future potential devlopment within the country in terms of political, military and cultural scenario. The religious tsuff that we are discussing now is only being discussed now, as you rightly pointed out - but was once severly criticized when I first raised it - as one that has impact on the military and political situation. Simply because some of the religions we have to deal with have ingrained political and military objectives in their core belief system and objectives.

The reason there has been less discussion on this thread on Islamic evangelism, is perhaps at least partly because I tried to avoid the issue when I saw what effect mere mention of this aspect of Islam and its negative fallouts had on the forum. These were seen as propaganda on behalf of the "hindu". Threads have been locked and removed that began to explore the issues concerned. At least this thread could still provide opportunities for discussions about the future in whatever censored, and minimalist form they could - waiting for the time when "controllers" or even forumites who find certain stances now as being "hindu" and therefore objectionable or suppressable, realize that those stances need not be anti-India or retrogressive or have at all been sourced from the so-called "Hindu right".

With all humility at my command, I would disagree that there is a sizeable majority amongst the populace that find western ways and ideals better and so they are some sort of quislings! Even if such people are attracted to the western ways, one would hardly expect the majority to sell their national interests and their Nation to slavery once again. They realise the exotic breath of freedom too!

It can depend on what they consider to be their nation, and how much of that nation compares in importance with what they consider their strongest affiliation - could be family, clan, a business interest, a region, or even a particular faith. Most faiths or ideologies or movements that come from outside - or who retain their core foundational identification with entities outside India - always try to disrupt identifications or affiliations that can come in the way of that external identification. Communists were always looking for and stengthening affiliations to outside - to the BCP, or CPSU and Comintern, and then finally the CPC. Islam was always looking towards Mecca and Medina. Christianity and the "westernization" was looking back always towards Europe. In the process they have tried to destroy, disrupt, deconstruct or twist anything that they felt came in the way of establishing those external identifications.

This is the fundamental problem in thinking of a future where these elements are sought to be "integrated" - their main inspirational identification remains external to India, and they will never be able to tolerate or not seek to destroy and undermine anything "Indic" that bypasses those external identifications. Anything that can become an alternate symbol of pride and identification not dependent on their external source of ideological power.

If their principal base is dependent on that very external identity they cannot have a place in our future. They will not be able to "Indianize" as that would jeopardize the very base they stand on. They are firmly based on the claimed historical narrative of a particular people at a particular place and point in time. That is the source of all their authority - how can they change all that to accommodate Indian past and cumulative experience - for that will demolish their fundamental claim to power!

[SwamyG]

Brihaspati:
Modernism is a factor, because of our perception of the World is different that what was say 150 years ago. The 'modern' youth will have national pride, but slowly 'individualism' has gotten into our space. This is different from the kind of 'individualism' that was bred in Indic region - which focused on self-realization. There were (and still are) guidelines for different paths for this self-realization, and individuals were not coerced to follow these paths. But in order to live in the society they had to follow the different rules of the then society.

All reformed sprouted from within the society without active support from non-Indic regions and thoughts. But these days NGOs, media, intellectuals draw support and motivation from far flunged regions - thanks to information age.

If there are non-Indic groups that believe in sophistry and violence, then as each day goes we start believing in the sophistry and lose the stomach to counter the violence.

[SwamyG]

INTERNAL CONSISTENCY OF ECLIPSES AND PLANETARY POSITIONS IN MAHÄBHÄRATA

Now if that is perfect, what is our future?

Predict!

RayC: Prof R.N.Iyengar was a professor of Civil Engineering at I.I.Sc., Bangalore. The cited paper (and in other papers) he does not get into predicting the future, he uses the astronomical events mentioned in the puranas and used planetary software to date the events.

[RayC]

INTERNAL CONSISTENCY OF ECLIPSES AND PLANETARY POSITIONS IN MAHÄBHÄRATA

Now if that is perfect, what is our future?

Predict!

RayC: Prof R.N.Iyengar was a professor of Civil Engineering at I.I.Sc., Bangalore. The cited paper (and in other papers) he does not get into predicting the future, he uses the astronomical events mentioned in the puranas and used planetary software to date the events.

Is he an expert and the last word?

Is astronomical predictions perfect?

That is what is my interest!

He can be God from my side!

If such mumbo jumbo can bring peace, I am his discipline!

[Sanku]

RayC: Prof R.N.Iyengar was a professor of Civil Engineering at I.I.Sc., Bangalore. The cited paper (and in other papers) he does not get into predicting the future, he uses the astronomical events mentioned in the puranas and used planetary software to date the events.

is he an expert and the last word?

That is what is my interest!

He can be God from my side!

I have posted two more papers. They are by a Dr in astronomy, further the people dont have the last word in science, the data does.

So far Dr Narahari Achar and others have conclusively shown the date. To argue with them some one will have to show how or why their work or data is wrong. So far there is no such success by competition.

So as of now -- last word yes.

---------------------

Actually the date of Mahabharata was always known by other means as around 3000 BCE too, its just that 200 years back, the British thought it fit to arbitrarily change the date, and the whole bunch of DIE merrily went along ignoring the previous works and statements by Arybhatta, Pulekesi II, Varahamihara and others.

It had to be rediscovered in the western context for some to believe in it.