India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

[ramana]

The genius of KS garu was he used this card to get out of the NSG dog house. Its for the future people to decide what they want to do after that.

[vina]

Rs 5 per unit of power too is non-viable long term. TNEB has essentially gone 'bondi' trying to supply power at that rate.

The Rs 5 per unit rate, if all customers pay it is very very viable. TNEB and others go "bondi" not because of the selling above economic costs to like high end domestic users or industries , but rather because, of the free power given to farmers and other targeted groups. In fact close to 40% of power generated in India is not metered at all!

Despite all this, with selling power at Rs 5 to folks like me and Rs 8 to industry, the local distribution companies sort of manage to hang in there. Now if you replace the bulk of cheap power with very expensive power that costs Rs 8 or Rs 10 per kwh, and make everyone pay for power at Rs8 + discom costs (ie around Rs 8.5 or so), even if politically possible, the first persons to go truly "bondi " will be the farmers, like in the ones in the Koodankulam area!

You can see the shock in KKNPP where the same church and people who welcomed them 15 years ago is now deeply resentful and bitterly opposed.

Yeah right. For 20 years, when all the construction was on, nothing, and then , suddenly just before starting, you start "opposing" as if, any new fears surfaced only in the final seconds before start and the same Tsunami that hit Chennai and Kalpakkam wasn't negotiated very well (okay, the DAE housing quarters took a hit and what 200 people died there ?), with zero clean up costs, but you point to Fukushima and $700b, but then these kinds of political games are par for the course in India and as is cracking heads together to get things done.

Opposition will get much worse in future.

Don't think so. People in Chennai, with Nuke plants right in the backyards don't seem to care, people in Mumbai , again with Nuke plants right in the backyards dont care. The Koodankulam folks will get used to it and still be drugged on the "free power" opium as always and random professional agitators and random turncoats (frocked or otherwise) will still continue to fish in troubled waters, wherever there is an opportunity. But I don't think Koodankulam will be one in future. It is a dead issue now.

[Theo_Fidel]

Despite all this, with selling power at Rs 5 to folks like me and Rs 8 to industry, the local distribution companies sort of manage to hang in there. Now if you replace the bulk of cheap power with very expensive power that costs Rs 8 or Rs 10 per kwh, and make everyone pay for power at Rs8 + discom costs (ie around Rs 8.5 or so), even if politically possible, the first persons to go truly "bondi " will be the farmers, like in the ones in the Koodankulam area!

Ok! I'll bite. What is the cost of new nuclear power, esp. the GE/AREVA type units?
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This business of accusing farmers of getting free power is absolute garbage and only indulged in by Bangloori Billi types. A typical 3/4 hp set requires a connection charge of Rs 700 & a fixed tariff of Rs 1,800 per year.When you consider that most farmers only get 4 hours of power a day at odd hours this works out to 365x4 ~ 1460 kw consumption max or about Rs 2 per unit consumed during off peak times. Most times farmers go weeks without power. So by no means is it free.
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We very well know that TN does not much care what happens to Kudankulam. Only we do and it has ever been so. There is a framed letter from Madras lawyers league demanding that we stop agitation against the British Raj hanging in katta bomman memorial hall. So we know which way that particular wind blows. Maybe GOI should acquire land near Bangalore to build the next reactors, we will see how that goes. This is the same city that stopped the metro because a few trees were being chopped down. There is a Thathvam in Tamilzh that says 'To show it bravery the cat risked the neck of the goat'. When the nuclear plant is in your back yard you get to act brave till then it empty bravado.
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BTW the reason southern utilities muddle through is because they get essentially free power from hydel generation. TN does not have much Hydel hence the inability to swallow loss. Thermal power generation is mostly loss making even though price of domestic coal is 1/3 the international price, which is a disgrace all by itself.

[vina]

This business of accusing farmers of getting free power is absolute garbage and only indulged in by Bangloori Billi types. A typical 3/4 hp set requires a connection charge of Rs 700 & a fixed tariff of Rs 1,800 per year.When you consider that most farmers only get 4 hours of power a day at odd hours this works out to 365x4 ~ 1460 kw consumption max or about Rs 2 per unit consumed during off peak times. Most times farmers go weeks without power. So by no means is it free.

Ok Lets do the same math here, by actually opening a spread sheet and doing numbers here

Pump = 4 hp = 4*0.746 = 2.984 kw
Run for 4 hr /day = 4* 2.984 = 11.936 kwh used per day
For 365 days = 365*4*2.984 = 4356.64 units used per year per pump

Now what is the cost you want power that industry buys at, Rs 8 ? You are looking at 4356.64 * 8 = Rs34,853 per year is the revenue loss that the farmer causes to the Discom! And this is per pump, multiply that by the millions and you know why the Dicom is "bondi".

If you put "Solar" at Rs 8 and tell the farmer to pay, you know what will happen if his bill comes close to Rs 3000 per month in power bill. I pay close to Rs 2000 thereabouts for the 400 units or so we use (no we are in Bangalore and dont use A/c, it is a balmy max 32, min 22 deg here now , even is new delhi is 46c and Chennai is 42) and I feel "ouch", every time I pay online.

[Amber G.]

From Indian News Media ...
India to launch 16 new nuclear reactors

The Nuclear Power Corporation of India Ltd (NPCIL) will launch 16 reactors at an outlay of Rs.2.3 trillion ($40 billion) during the 12th Plan period (2012-17), a top official of the atomic power operator said.

"We have to launch eight 700 MW pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs) and eight light water reactors (LWRs) involving a total outlay of Rs.230,000 crore (Rs.2.3 trillion). The LWRs will be from foreign companies," S.K. Jain, who retired Thursday as NPCIL chairman and managing director, told IANS in an interview.
<snip>

Nuclear reactor supplier cannot be held liable for damages, says NPCIL Chairman

[Theo_Fidel]

Vina,

So now it is now Bengloori Billi is paying more than farmer. I see the free power insults have dropped out. Still farmer never gets 24x7 power only off-peak surplus power when the system has to be backed down otherwise. You pay more for 24x7 power. The TNEB has itself has admitted that agriculture power is only 10% or less of its losses. Its greatest sector of losses is supplying to domestic tariff consumers at Rs 5 or less per unit. It has also admitted it can not supply 24x7 power to farmers even if they are willing to pay as Bangloori billi power will get cut nah. Remember rural homes in TN also get free lighting which is another 10% of the loss or is that to be blamed on farmer as well.

BTW South TN is mostly power surplus due to wind. Yet we still see 14 hour power cuts because Bangloori Billi is the squeaky wheel and too delicate and must be kept in comfort. People in Chennai and Bengluru have no idea the hardships others face so they can have only 2-4 hour power cuts.
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BTW your math is wrong. It is Rs1800 per HP right now in STN. So 4 HP ~ 4x1800 = Rs7,200 per year. Also pumps around here come in 3/4 HP increments for submersibles, even though TANGEDCO charges us for full HP & rounds up. The most common large submersible series I see around here is 6 stage 3.25 HP. It could be different in other places. With 3.25 HP you can irrigate roughly 20 acres of land in 4-6 hours of 60ft of head pumping. Very very few people have 20 acres of land. Most common series again is 3/4 HP to 1.5 HP though people have been forced into using higher HP to pump during the 2-3 hours power is available. Still even there typically 2-3 submersibles of lower power will be installed so the field can be quickly watered.

It has gotten to the point where diesel pumps sets are now cheaper, so my estimate is 50% of pumping is now through Diesel. That should make you happy.
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It is obvious you are missing a great deal about farming and how it works.

Let me do the math for you. Typical land size is about 1/2 acre to 3/4 acre. So TANGEDCO does not allow connection sharing, so a farmer will typically put in a 1.5 HP set for 3/4 acre parcel. Now even for rice we only need flood irrigation 8 times, 10 times if you do conventional mechanized planting. First time you need about 6 cm of ponding. Other times you only need 2-3 cm. So say 50 cm total. For two crops 100 cm of pumped water per year. 3/4 acre ~ 3000 sqm. So 100x10x3000= 3,000,000 liters. Yield is about 4-5 tons per acre here so say 3 tons from 3/4 acre. Or about 1000 liters per kg of rice.

So lets see what the cost is of pumping from say 30 meters depth.

Now a 4 HP submersible is only used if your head is say 40-120 m. There are places in North India that are this deep. In the south water is usually brackish by the time you get that deep. So the sweet water is only 30 meters down at most, else you don't have sweet water at all as in Ramnad district. 3/4 HP- 1.5 HP is most efficient and cheap at this depth minimizing pipe and pressure energy loss. Higher HP only throws water further out wasting energy and damaging pump impeller/motor. Those Tamil films you see of rural images with water being sprayed in 100 foot rainbows is only done for movie.

1.5 HP produces flow rates of 200 l/min from 30 meters head or so after pipe losses, efficiency, etc.

So 200x60 = 12,000 liters per hour. So for 3/4 acre field 3000/12 = 250 hours of power. 250x1.5 = 375 kw. For this power consumption, farmers here in STN pay 700+1800x2 = Rs 4,300 annual charge. So 4300/375 = 11.46 Rs per unit consumed. This even assuming power is available when needed. As I said diesel is now cheaper. You can rent it and only run it when you need to. Now there indeed are fat cat farmers on 20 acres who abuse the system and make out like bandits. But the average small holding farmer gets raped by TANGEDCO. On top of that because most are not articulate and media savvy gets fully blamed for the power sector losses. Garbage. Earlier when the per HP charge was 250 the cost was 500+700 = 1200/375 = RS 3.2/kw for off peak power so yes again not free.

[Pratyush]

Aruna Roy to Sonia: Nuclear Safety bill is anti-transparency

Hmmm.....

Lets see what the GOI will do in this case.

[Amber G.]

Recently there were quite a few stories about fishes far and near getting polluted by Fukushima radioactivity.... by ddm's, showing complete ignorance... Here is an article in Forbes commenting on that.
Worth reading in full ... some excerpts, very informative, are below.

Why this is very relevant to us is that we have our own ddm/uday kumars/busbys who propagate lies ...so it is important to be well informed...These guys never get tired of spreading lies to take advantage of irrational fear...We should be concerned of irrational Fear, not Radiation.


Hot Tuna -- More Fukushima Flotsam

<Caption on a picture of fish >
TOKYO - A 232kg blue-fin tuna is displayed during a new year's first auction at the Tsukiji fish market on in Tokyo, Japan. You could eat fish like this with its Fukushima 137/134Cs content for every meal for the rest of your life with no effects from the radiation, although the mercury might kill you. The market handles approximately 3,000 tons of fish a day, generating about 3 billion yen.
[/size]
>>>>
The several hot tuna articles that have come out this week have been interesting and amusing. No, I don’t mean bassist Jack Casady and guitarist Jorma Kaukonen from Jefferson Airplane, I mean articles like Bluefin Tuna Record Fukushima Radioactivity by science correspondent for the BBC News Jonathan Amos that report these tuna have picked up radioactive pollution and contamination from waters of the coast of Japan and are transporting them to America. This work comes from Professor Nicholas Fisher whom Amos described as ‘stunned’ to find the radioactive signal in bluefin tuna from different isotopes of the element cesium (Cs), specifically 137Cs and 134Cs.

P L E A S E ---
These fish have no contamination, are not polluted, and Fisher was not ’stunned’ as he knew full well that he should see this. We see these chemical signatures all the time from many events and sources. We even see 137Cs in fish (and in us) from fallout from the 50’s and 60’s. No big deal. I would be worried if we did not see these signatures because that would imply we were not doing our jobs. Since we can detect a single nucleus disintegrating, we can measure radioactivity very, very well, better than we can detect toxic compounds like mercury.

Normal radioactivity in our diet can be up to 400 Bq/kg in foods like potatoes, bananas,{ } nuts, beets and other vegetables, primarily from natural 40K with a little from Ra, U and Th. Normal radioactivity in tuna is about 92 Bq/kg (Tahir et al. 2010). These Fukushima fish have about 95 Bq/kg. Yes, we can measure this tiny amount, but no it’s not important at all.

The problem here is the difference between pollution and a chemical signature like what we are seeing in these fish. A chemical signature is the presence of various trace elements whose detailed ratios to each other can point to a specific region or event that gave rise to those elements in that ratio. Thus, measuring the Nd:Sm ratios in a water sample from the mid-Atlantic ocean can tell you if that water came from the Mediterranean Sea or from the Arctic Ocean because the source of those elements in those waters is weathering of different rocks with different amounts of trace elements (Nd/Sm isotopics).

Similarly, when DPRK (North Korea), tested small atomic devices a few years ago, we collected air samples flying over the country because the ratios of various isotopes like Pu, Cs and Sr give a signature telling the size and type of the device, and whether or not the test was even successful. The one in 2006 was basically a failure but the one in 2009 was a success.

In my old environmental monitoring lab in Carlsbad, NM (CEMRC), we would monitor for trace elements in soil, water, air, humans and animals and could distinguish between specific types of nuclear tests. As an example, we could use the extremely small Pu-isotopic signature in various soils to tell whether they were dominated by fallout from above-ground nuclear tests from the Cold War or from a small underground atomic test in 1961 at the nearby Gnome site. Global fallout is dominated by above ground atmospheric tests of high-yield fusion bombs (H-bombs) which produce lower amounts of fission products (137Cs and 90Sr) and higher amounts of 239Pu than lower-yield fission bombs (like Gnome) which produce higher amounts of fission products and higher amounts of 240Pu and 242Pu.


Therefore, the tuna signatures are interesting because they have a Fukushima signature for Cs ratios. Although there are 39 isotopes of Cs, most are so unstable that they decay away in seconds to weeks. The three important ones for nuclear reactors and bombs are 134Cs (half-life ~ 2 yrs), 137Cs (half-life ~ 30 yrs), and stable 133Cs. Chemically, Cs acts like potassium (K) with a similar biological half-life, meaning the time it takes the body to purge half of the element. Biological half-life depends on the animal, and upon individual metabolisms, diet and especially water consumption. For Cs, it is between one and four months in humans. This is completely independent of the radiological half-life of the element. And is plenty of time for these fish to transverse the Pacific.

Since the Fukushima event occurred less than 2 years ago, 134Cs has undergone the better part of only one half-life but is still part of the signature, and will be for about 15 years or so. The 137Cs has undergone almost no decay, but is also mixed up with the residual 137Cs from historic global fallout. So it is the presence of 134Cs in the fish that gives them a Fukushima signature. Just like the 131I signature we saw in air over the west coast in the two months following Fukushima. It faded away after that since 131I has only an 8-day half-life and is gone in two or three months.

But these signatures, like Cs in the tuna, are so small that they pose no risk and cannot be considered pollution as pollution and contamination imply actual health and environmental effects. On the other hand, the mercury in tuna, while still low, has led the EPA to recommend eating only one can per week to avoid possible toxicity. You could eat several tons of this Fukushima tuna and have no health effect from the radiation, although the mercury would become a problem at that point.
<snip... please read the whole article>

(We do know there have been scores of articles posted here in brf of the typical headlines of the type "Cesium exceeding new limit detected in 51 food items in nine prefectures" ..similar logic applies to them too)

[Amber G.]

The only way rational study and methodology heads to quick sand is brute irrational fear mongering and subsequent stoppage of work/ limitation of output.

One rational study... For perspective What's is really going to kill you..
(Figures are from US but it still gives some idea )
– Iatrogenic. 190,000 deaths a year. 180 million receive medical attention. 0.105% of them die each year.

– Smoking. 152,000 deaths a year. 43.4 million Americans smoke. 0.350% of them die each year.

– Alcohol. 100,000 deaths a year. 60 million Americans drink. 0.167% of them die each year.

– Automobile accidents. 50,000 deaths a year. 190 million Americans drive. 0.026% of them die each year.

– Murder. 16,000 deaths a year. 300 million Americans impacted. 0.005% of them die each year.

– Coal (45% of our energy). 12,000 deaths a year. 190 million Americans effected. 0.005% of them die each year.

– Food poisoning. 5,000 deaths a year. 300 million Americans impacted. 0.002% of them die each year..

– Construction. 1,000 deaths a year. 7.7 million construction workers. 0.013% of them die each year.
– Police work. 160 deaths a year. 700,000 police officers. 0.023% of them die each year.

– Mining. 72 deaths a year. 350,000 miners, or 0.021% of them die each year.

– Nuclear power (20% of our energy). zero deaths a year (actually zero deaths in 50 years). 140 million Americans effected. 0.000% of them die each year.

From: What's Really Gonna Kill You?
From above:

It’s hard to capture activities when talking about death since heart disease and cancer account for over half of all deaths (over 1 million in 2011) but what you do that causes them is the key, because then you might be able to make good choices, the outcome that worrying should accomplish. Society needs to make similar choices as a whole to increase the safety of its citizens.

[ramana]

AmberG, am working on first item in OR due to medicines.

[Neela]

TN has acute power problems. Outskirts of Madurai - you have power cuts between 12:00 to 1:30 AM - and that is on top - so grim is the situation there.
Mettur plant went offline due to fire and took with it 800MW. This was a cruel blow for a state which was already reeling with severe shortage.

The sad part of all this is the factory workers who get hit hard the most. Unlike regular employees, they are under a contractor. Which means they get paid on a weekly/monthly basis depending on the logistics of the powerloom/textile units.
(BTW Contract labour is becoming the norm in also Auto ancillary units.)
The situation has reached crisis proportions. and thousands wills not earn a rupee because of this!

This essentially means that industrial units in Tamil Nadu that have already been facing prolonged power cuts now will have to brace themselves for more. According to the TNSEB, industrial and commercial consumers will face up to 40% higher power cuts in the coming months. Industrial units located outside Chennai are already facing power cuts for up to 8-10 hours in a day. Besides this, all industries will be subjected to a one-day power holiday every week from March 1 onwards.

The (Feb 2012 )article says TN faces 4000MW shortage - thats is a whoppingh 35% of power needs
But plans are afoot to address these needs - TN has to keep the manufacturing sector going. 2x800 MW Coal plants are planned and Koondankulam will come online in August.

One has to look at the labour demographics to understand the need for power - the let them have cake argument from the ballroom when hoi polloi suffer is criminal.

Word from Tirupur is that Bangladeshis are steaming ahead and cornering huge deals. Vietnam is now a hot desitinateion for auto industries. Our ideal location in INdian ocean is being underminded by power shortage.

[Amber G.]

Opposition will get much worse in future.

Don't think so. People in Chennai, with Nuke plants right in the backyards don't seem to care, people in Mumbai , again with Nuke plants right in the backyards dont care.

For another perspective here is another story, worth reading in full:

Nuke Us: The Town That Wants America's Worst Atomic Waste

There’s a secure solution to America’s nuclear waste problem: bury it under Carlsbad, New Mexico. The locals are ready — if only Washington would get out of the way. {Interestingly even in India, Washington and other outsiders are ready to tell what is best for us.. We ought to listen to logic not irrational fear.. }
<snip>

[Amber G.]

News items from Indian News Media

India cautious on Korean nuclear park offer as Posco hangs fire

India to launch 16 new nuclear reactors

Four PSUs pool in Rs 45,000 cr for nuclear power projects

Top level changes at two atomic power operators

[Sanku]

Nuclear reactor supplier cannot be held liable for damages, says NPCIL Chairman

Why is NPCIL chairman batting for the suppliers? (In this case Russians) --> there is a excellent rebut in the comments in the Hindu

Dr SK Jain's "concrete" example is too simplistic. Even assuming bricks and stones were sourced locally, each and every CC of concrete would have been placed under Russian supervision. In the case of Kaiga "dome failure", as I remember the construction agency was not found fault with; it was the designer who was said to be responsible. With imported reactors, holding the Owner-Operator responsible for accidents caused by defects in equipment wholly supplied by the foreign vendor is unreasonable. Turbine Supplier was said to be responsible for the Narora fire incident a few decades ago, not the "Operator" (NPCIL). In fact it is said that it was NPCIL's Operators who saved the day from a major catastrophe! Truth is NPP designs are so advanced that a major failure must necessarily have many plausible causes. Realistic determination and appropriate apportioning responsibility need to be purely technological exercises - not clouded by political, monetary or other considerations.

Clearly, once the matter has been spoken about in the Parliament, I would expect the NPCIL chairman to bat for his organization and India, and not for Russia, France or US.

Very disappointing. Hopefully once the political leadership changes, a large realignment of top levels personnel is also carried out in many of the state enterprises.

[Austin]

^^ Internationally when they sign deals for Nuclear reactor with other countries who is held responsible for damages ?

[Theo_Fidel]

The real elephant in the room is that no one thinks that NPCIL will do the right thing in case it comes to that. At least foreign suppliers can be taken to court and the facts about any failures will come to light. Compensation can be fought for, etc. With NPCIL it will all be buried. This is why the attempts by NPCIL to absolve them are particularly twisted. They want to take on the responsibility because they have full immunity. If foreign suppliers are taken to court NPCIL will end up being a party and the truth will come out. This way complete secrecy is assured.

At Kaiga IIRC there were several attempts by the DAE to brush the entire thing under the carpet. The failure was both design and Q/C. The blocks that caused the collapse had not been tested as the designers had not asked for it to be tested. Since then Kaiga has had numerous unfortunate incidents. Fires in the dome, fires in the control room, escape of Tritium water, etc. Every incident has been blamed on some hapless powerless goat. The Tritium incident in particular has been hinted as being malicious though the real question is how did Tritium escape all the safety checks and radiation sensors. DAE does not want to answer that question.

The other thing that turned up was how NPCIL and private suppliers were in tight hand and glove symbiosis. Money was part of this process where private suppliers provided services/materials and NPCIL would 'neglect' to do proper Q/C for one reason or another. We tend to think that DAE is a PSU but it is not. The bulk of work is done by private contractors. SK Jain will next turn up on the board of one of those private contractors/supplier. Maybe turn into an advisor for foreign suppliers. Undoubtedly the campaign for dollars is part of that strategy.

Which brings me to the other thing, since when did PSU workers and scientists get to make policy. If an Army General had said half the things Mr Jain did, there would be a court of inquiry appointed the next day. VK Singh got crucified for a single letter he wrote. It’s a sign of how powerful the DAE is and how much money it has control over that it can speak in this arrogant manner without a peep out of MMS.

[ramana]

Maybe they speak his words?

[Theo_Fidel]

Ramana,

If he had stuck to MMS thoughts he would be fine.

Instead he pontificated of the liability bill and how GOI's set policy was faulty. And how it should be changed. He then announced how much would be spent and where and sites selected. He has guaranteed 8 foreign reactors, while GOI has no such publicly guaranteed policy. Not satisfied with that he proceeded to commit NTPC, NALCO & IOC entire balance sheet as collateral for the money NPCIL needs. I could go on....

[Neela]

Nuclear reactor supplier cannot be held liable for damages, says NPCIL Chairman

Why is NPCIL chairman batting for the suppliers? (In this case Russians) --> there is a excellent rebut in the comments in the Hindu
Clearly, once the matter has been spoken about in the Parliament, I would expect the NPCIL chairman to bat for his organization and India, and not for Russia, France or US.
Very disappointing. Hopefully once the political leadership changes, a large realignment of top levels personnel is also carried out in many of the state enterprises.

Most European and North American countries are signatories to the Paris convention which places almost all responsibility on the operator. Please read Article 3 , Article 4 .Article 5 ..

There is no precedent or set pattern here for amounts. Germany has unlimited liability ( no surprises there ... lefts and green stronghold). Finland Euro 650 million. France - Euro 500million cap and if you thought that was strange...wait : ex-colleague in Areva pointed me to this blog . The Paris convention talks only of fission ( See article 1) - that makes ITER reactor NOT liable at all.
Why is France strange - because it has a population/industrial density as good as germany ...yet the liability varies from 0.0 million Euro to 500 million Eur.
You might want to read Canada's thinking and deliberations here and here.

NPCIL is the operator and the outgoing chairman mentioned what was the international norm in terms of responsibility.

Two issues needs to be tracked here wrt India
1: What made Areva/Russians etc complain and why did they agree later.
2. PIL running in Supreme court.

Will do that over the next few days.

[Sanku]

Most European and North American countries are signatories to the Paris convention which places almost all responsibility on the operator. Please read Article 3 , Article 4 .Article 5 ..

Etc....

Neela-ji; your data points are no doubt valid. However I am a little confused as to what you are saying in context of the post I made.

Why should NPCIL make a statement in context of international norms at all?

1) As you yourself showed, there are no clear norms internationally in the first place. What exists is a diverse set of mixed up issues, no doubt a set of systems which is a result of evolution rather than considered design. There is clear lack of logic here, as you yourself so clearly ilustrated with case of France.

2) India is creating its own laws, hence while International norms may be looked at, however and "Indian sense of logic", that is looking at various pros and cons in Indian context needs to be made. He does not seem to have done that.

3) In terms of questioning a legislation laid down by the Parliament, he seems to be significantly overstepping his brief. He is supposed to carry out a alignment of his organization with national policy, and not the other way around.

[Theo_Fidel]

Sanku,

He might be testing the waters for those upstairs without the spine. AREVA & NPCIL are stalled for a reason?

[Theo_Fidel]

Meanwhile the reality speaks...

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... ef=wl_home

Nuclear energy will not be able to solve the power crisis in India, said Dr Bikash Sinha, Homi Bhabha Professor at the Department of Atomic Energy, on Tuesday. The country therefore needs to focus on solar energy. Nuclear energy meets minimal demand for electricity in the country, he added.

“We have done very little to utilise solar energy options. India will have to do something seriously in this regard,” Dr Sinha said on the sidelines of a seminar on green economy organised by the Bengal National Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

[Neela]

Sanku-ji
You are right. India specific regulations must come in place. I am still reading up stuff before I do a comparison. But let me quickly jump the gun. ( will revert with a big picture over the weekend if possible ) .

In the US, the Price-Anderson act covers liability. It has a $10billion pooled fund. Why so large? Because public can sue the operator in case of damages. However in India, public cannot go to courts and should now appeal to the claims commissioner. Also liability if supplier is Rs.1500 crore whereas it varies elsewhere.

While this might look unfair, I _think_ governments and manufactuers across the world know one thing which public do not - it is difficult to scientifically prove damage caused by radiation exposure in courts . Also with new reactor safety mechanisms, the core is quickly sealed off thereby limiting exposure.
Like I said I am still reading. In the meantime, it will be interesting to see some court cases for 3 mile island and fukushim - particluraly radiation damage and health effects court cases.

[Theo_Fidel]

I'm reading Edward Tellers, 'From Heaven and Earth' 1984 Edition, and I highly recommend it even if it is a bit dated.

Apparently he fought tooth and nail and argued vehemently to bury the reactors underground. Even back then he was worried about terrorist attacks. Particularly an aircraft being deliberately flown into one. Very prescient. He was how ever run over by the others to his great disgust. He also feels reactors should be operated with zero incidents for 50+ years for there to be confidence in them.

Only 2 objections to Fission energy are valid for him,
- The need for long term, beyond civilization scale security of the materials mined and stored.
- The fact that if all countries get nuclear power, everyone will have a nuclear bomb as well.

Both issues are intractable and we should just learn to live with such risk per his opinion.

The U-235 shortage he dismisses as his feeling is breeders are inevitable and at that point fuel is not a worry. If he knew what we now know about breeders wonder what he would say.

He has tons of info on fusion and is quite cautious about having controlled fusion energy.
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Hmmm! Just finished, that was dissatisfying. He got into the developing worlds need for energy in the end. By year 2000 (bit dated) the world needs 500 quads of energy. 200 from oil/gas, 100 from coal, 50 from Hydel, 50 from others and 100 from Nuclear. This is the maximum potential of Nuclear in present circumstances apparently. Even this apparently buys only 25 years to make further 'improvements' to the energy supply. He does not make it clear what those improvements must be.

[Prem]

Areva Expects India Reactor Deal by December .

Areva and others such as GE Hitachi Nuclear Energy and Westinghouse Electric Co. are aiming to capitalize on India's plans to spend billions of dollars to boost its nuclear power capacity 15 times to 63 gigawatts by 2032. More than half of India's 201 GW of total power generation capacity is based on coal, which is in short supply.
India is in talks with Russia, France and South Korea to buy nuclear reactors for power plants, said V. Narayanasamy, junior minister at the prime minister's office.Areva and the local state-owned nuclear power monopoly have signed an initial pact in 2010 to build the two reactors of 1,650 megawatts each at Jaitapur in the western Maharashtra state. Nuclear Power Corp. plans to have six reactors with a total capacity of 9.9 GW at Jaitapur."If we sign the contract by the year-end, we will target to commission the first reactor by the year 2020 and the second by 2021," Arthur Montalembert, Areva India's chairman, told reporters on the sidelines of a conference.The Jaitapur project is facing delays due to protests by local people who fear the nuclear plant could endanger their lives. Their concerns were accentuated by the Fukushima nuclear plant accident in Japan after last year's earth quake and tsunami."It (the accident) has certainly induced some delays, not specifically to India. Its consequences led to reviews in France and each and every country," Mr. Montalembert said. "It has certainly impacted business plans."

http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2012/06 ... z1xhTXZ3r6

[arun]

Toshiba Corporation’s US subsidiary Westinghouse Electric Company LLC press release announcing the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) agreeing to negotiate an Early Works Agreement (EWA) supporting future construction of AP1000® nuclear power plants at the Mithivirdi site in Gujarat:

Westinghouse And Nuclear Power Company Of India Limited Sign Memorandum Of Understanding For Early Works Agreement

[nelson]

Japan reactivates two nuclear reactors

Japanese Prime Minister Yoshiko Noda approved Saturday the reactivation of two nuclear reactors in western Japan, the first restart since last year’s atomic disaster.

The government told the operator Kansai Electric Power Co to reactivate the idled units 3 and 4 of the Oi nuclear plant in Fukui prefecture over strong public opposition after the premier met Governor Issei Nishikawa, who gave his consent.

The plant is 60 kilometres north of Kyoto city, the ancient capital and a major tourist destination with a population of 1.38 million.

Japan’s 50 reactors have been shut down for maintenance. Utility companies have been unable to reactivate them because of public fears about nuclear power after the disaster at the Fukushima Daiichi plant in March 2001.

The plant suffered meltdowns after it was struck by an earthquake and tsunami. Tens of thousands of people have been forced to leave areas surrounding the complex.

In early May, Hokkaido Electric Power Co shut down reactor 3 at its Tomari plant on the northern Japanese island, leaving the nation without nuclear-generated electricity for the first time in 42 years.

Nuclear plants accounted for about 30 per cent of the country’s supply before the Fukushima disaster.

[Amber G.]

One rational study... For perspective What's is really going to kill you..
(Figures are from US but it still gives some idea )

Please see the original post here ..

From: What's Really Gonna Kill You?
From above:

It’s hard to capture activities when talking about death since heart disease and cancer account for over half of all deaths (over 1 million in 2011) but what you do that causes them is the key, because then you might be able to make good choices, the outcome that worrying should accomplish. Society needs to make similar choices as a whole to increase the safety of its citizens.

Few other articles and data are worth paying attention to as we compare dangers of nuclear energy with other types of energy..

Per the article below..

Deaths per TWh for all energy sources:
Rooftop solar power is actually more dangerous than Chernobyl

Rooftop solar is much safer than coal and oil ( because those have a lot of air pollution deaths), yet it is several times more dangerous than nuclear power and wind power.


{Editors note: Deaths per unit of energy for ground Solar station are much lower than roof top, yet it is higher than nuclear energy}

Rooftop solar is several times more dangerous than nuclear power and wind power. It is still much safer than coal and oil, because those have a lot of air pollution deaths.

Rooftop solar can be safer [0.44 up to 0.83 death per twh each year). If the rooftop solar is part of the shingle so you do not put the roof up more than once and do not increase maintenance then that is ok too. Or if you had a robotic system of installation.

World average for coal is about 161 deaths per TWh.
In the USA about 30,000 deaths/year from coal pollution from 2000 TWh.
15 deaths per TWh.
In China about 500,000 deaths/year from coal pollution from 1800 TWh.
278 deaths per TWh.
{ This is a long and detailed article, worth reading in full for those interested}

[Amber G.]

^^Related to above:
How Deadly Is Your Kilowatt?
We Rank The Killer Energy Sources

The table below lists the mortality rate of each energy source as deaths per trillion kWhrs produced. The numbers are a combination of actual direct deaths and epidemiological estimates, and are rounded to two significant figures.

Energy Source Mortality Rate (deaths/trillionkWhr)
Coal – global average 170,000 (50% global electricity)
Coal – China 280,000 (75% China’s electricity)
Coal – U.S. 15,000 (44% U.S. electricity)

Oil 36,000 (36% of energy, 8% of electricity)
Natural Gas 4,000 (20% global electricity)

Biofuel/Biomass 24,000 (21% global energy)

Solar (rooftop) 440 (< 1% global electricity)

Wind 150 (~ 1% global electricity)

Hydro – global average 1,400 (15% global electricity)

Nuclear* – global average 90 (17% global electricity)
*For nuclear includes Chernobyl and Fukushima ..virtually all deaths are attributed to Chernoybl..

[Amber G.]

India France close to seal Jaitapur Nuclear power plant deal

[vina]

Cheap Coal is Dead, Long Live Renewables AND NUCLEAR , I must add, though the author who is from Sierra Club obviously doesn't.

But some important points raised here.

Cheap Coal Is Dead. Long Live Renewables. (Part 1)
By Carl Pope - Jun 19, 2012

“Sustainable Energy for All” is the main theme for this week’s Rio+20 United Nations gathering in Brazil. The challenge of making energy both accessible and sustainable has grown more complicated in the past year or so, and also more exciting. These are tough times for coal and other high-carbon sources of energy, while the news about clean energy is more promising.

In March, the power generating arm of India’s largest conglomerate, the Tata Group, announced that it was shifting its investment strategy from coal-fired thermal plants to wind and solar renewable projects. Coal projects, Tata said, were becoming “impossible” to develop, and investment in them had stopped.

With this declaration, one of Asia’s biggest energy players confirmed an emerging reality. The U.S., Europe, Russia, Australia and Japan all had created modern consumer economies dependent on abundant, cheap fossil-fuel energy. In the 21st century that is no longer viable; the high-carbon growth path is closing.

The reason is cost. Oil has long been expensive, because low-cost oil producers such as Saudi Arabia have learned to demand high prices by limiting supplies and refusing to sign long-term price agreements. Coal had always been different -- traded locally, on both long-term concessions and short-term spot contracts. Two years ago, China and India could supplement their domestic coal supplies with imports from Indonesia, Australia and South Africa. Some of the cheapest coal mines serving China in 2010 were in Indonesia, where India’s Adani Power Ltd. and Tata were purchasing coal mines and building their own shipping and port facilities to ensure they could supply a wave of huge new power projects.
Geologically Abundant

While coal is geologically more abundant than oil, cheap coal, close to population centers, is not. The biggest coal- producing region in the U.S. -- the Powder River Basin -- can get coal out of the ground for about $12 a ton. It costs roughly $60 a ton to ship it to power plants in the Ohio Valley. China’s vast reserves near Inner Mongolia can be mined for $25 a ton. But by the time it travels by rail across North China, then by sea to southern coastal cities, the cost rises to more than $125 a ton.

Shipping coal is more difficult and more expensive than shipping oil. Only a few coal-exporting countries are close to Asian markets; Australia and Indonesia dominate the trade. In 2011, countries with abundant accessible coal, such as Indonesia, began to demand high prices -- two times higher in fact. Coal became the new oil. An informal cartel of coal exporters emerged with the same strategic goal as the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries -- obtaining higher prices.

China and India, which had been counting on buying coal for $40 a ton, now find that imported coal at $120 a ton is “cheap.” Dozens of coal plants in China and India cut back capacity because of fuel costs and shortages. Indian power companies scrapped 42 gigawatts worth of new power plants. The Reserve Bank of India warned investors that coal projects were very risky. India’s largest coal company tried to raise its prices, only to be forced to back down by the government, which owns more than half of it. Eventually, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh ordered Coal India to provide adequate coal deliveries for power projects in the pipeline. Coal India grudgingly agreed, but markets didn’t believe it could deliver; banks continued to refuse to lend, leading to Tata’s announcement. Meanwhile, in China, the government tried to reverse its previous deregulation of the coal-mining and transportation sectors in an effort to get prices under control, causing friction with state-owned coal mines.

Expensive Shipping
India and China, respectively, are home to some of the world’s largest coal reserves. They are the fastest-growing global coal markets. But most of their coal is distant from their booming coastal regions. Their rail systems are inadequate to ship the volumes needed to fuel existing needs, much less the growth expected by 2020. And shipping coal by rail is expensive. Most of the cost of coal is not wages, but diesel fuel used either to mine or transport it. As oil grows more expensive, it drags the price of coal up with it.

There is cheap coal in the Powder River Basin, in part because U.S. demand for coal is slumping as American power companies shift to cheaper and cleaner natural gas or renewables. Peabody Energy Inc. would love to ship its surplus Wyoming coal to Asia, if it can get it there. Peabody promises investors that it can make money shipping coal to China -- precisely because it expects the price to remain at $120 or more. But U.S. coal companies must first overcome local community opposition to shipping and loading hundreds of millions of tons of dirty black dust through West Coast ports such as Longview, Washington.

What does $120-a-ton coal mean for the development plans of India and China? At $120 a ton, electricity from coal costs about 10 cents a kilowatt-hour, before installing pollution controls. But India and China built their economic plans on 4 cents-a-kilowatt-hour power, presuming that cheap Indonesian coal would keep the price down.

Indonesia is no longer willing to be the low-cost provider; it sees China and India using imported coal to fuel industrialization and economic development, and would rather see that development taking place at home. So the island nation announced that it will impose a tax on coal exports, leading to an actual ban in 2014. If Indonesia follows through, it would pull about 320 million tons -- roughly 40 percent of the Asian coal transported by sea -- off the market, creating a power crisis for China and India (and other importers, such as Japan and Korea) that would make the shortfalls of 2011 seem minor. Even if Indonesia merely insists on keeping prices at more than $100 a ton, the cost of electricity in China’s and India’s booming, but still fundamentally poor, economies will double.

Transportation Fuel
Oil, clearly, is already too expensive to power Asia’s growing electricity demand. The price of liquefied natural gas, which most Asian nations import, is linked to oil. India and China are now aggressively seeking their own versions of the shale-gas boom occurring in the U.S. But even if they manage to increase domestic supplies, they would be shrewd to convert natural gas to a transportation fuel rather than devoting it to electrical generation.

Because as the cost of high-carbon electricity soars, the cost of low-carbon alternatives is plummeting.

China’s wind industry is eager to provide power at prices ranging from 7 cents a kilowatt-hour to 13 cents, and India’s latest solar projects are bid at 15 cents. Costs of wind and solar continue to decline. The conventional wisdom is that, because wind and solar are intermittent sources, they can’t be used to power an entire economy. It’s true that it will take some time before renewables can compete with the $40-a-ton coal that Asia had been counting on. But as challenging as the low- carbon path to growth may be, coal markets are telling Asia it has no choice. High-carbon growth not only would cook the climate. It would also derail Asia’s economies.

(Carl Pope is a former chairman of the Sierra Club. The opinions expressed are his own.)

However, WHAT Carl Pope leaves OUT is the Elephant in the room, Nuclear. Now you know why Manmohan Singh's 123 agreement and the importance it, and his determination to see it through, going to the extent of even putting his govt on line. It is THAT vital . Lets face it. There is NO alternative to India using Nuclear for a big part of it's base load. The sooner we get our act on that the better. Building more rail lines to ship coal around will be monumentally wasteful and Coal works only because that Infra cost is not borne it at all, but uses existing infra.

Sure, wind, solar etc have their niches, but there is no escaping big nuke. Lets get the thing straigthened out, put a big push in R&D into commercializing thorium and oh, let us make sure we have the seed fuel to fire up thorium by first getting the Gen 3 reactors and the fuel in place.

[KLP Dubey]

However, WHAT Carl Pope leaves OUT is the Elephant in the room, Nuclear.

All these fellows have their own agendas. Nukular is anathema to most tree-huggers like the Sierra Club. India needs a robust policy that will secure our energy future:

- Cut corruption and energy pilferage with draconian penalties (need a separate judicial system and police to prosecute energy-related crimes)
- Energy efficiency incentives in all economic sectors
- Natural gas
- Nuclear power
- Non-cellulosic biofuels production in synergy with CO2 capture from natural gas power plants
- Hydel development in the northeast and mountain states
- Niches for solar/wind/geothermal energy
- A "standardized" energy subsidy that pays back more than it spends

We need people of the caliber of N. Modi to push this through, not paralyzed and useless losers like Manmohan, Jairam, Sushilkumar etc.

Best Regards,

KL

[Sanku]

Now you know why Manmohan Singh's 123 agreement and the importance it, and his determination to see it through, going to the extent of even putting his govt on line.

Yeah, buying votes in parliament while coordinating with Americans is putting govt on line.

To allow external players with questionable technology which they cant use in their own countries, while paying tons for it and at the same time not pushing for internal programs is caring for nuclear energy.

And there was was no scam in 2G either it was to provide cheap tele-phony to masses

[vic]

Most of India's Mega thermal power projects have collapsed and atleast TATAs and Reliance have sued the Govt. Hence that coal babay is dead

[arnab]

Hmm, the 'untested' nuclear power plant (Westinghouse AP1000) is going to come up in Gujarat (as per agreement with NPCIL). How come NaMo isn't protesting? Perhaps because he is a true bharat rakshak unlike Mamata Banerjee

[vishvak]

Hmm, the 'untested' nuclear power plant (Westinghouse AP1000) is going to come up in Gujarat (as per agreement with NPCIL). How come NaMo isn't protesting? Perhaps because he is a true bharat rakshak unlike Mamata Banerjee

So now it comes to NaMo to protest when the hardware is 'international western'?

[Sanku]

Hmm, the 'untested' nuclear power plant (Westinghouse AP1000) is going to come up in Gujarat (as per agreement with NPCIL). How come NaMo isn't protesting? Perhaps because he is a true bharat rakshak unlike Mamata Banerjee

So now it comes to NaMo to protest when the hardware is 'international western'?

Apparantly NaMo has to clean the muck spread in the nation by entire "sikular and mercantile" polity single-handedly.

After every one has had enough space and time to do the various acts that is.

[Theo_Fidel]

Most of India's Mega thermal power projects have collapsed and atleast TATAs and Reliance have sued the Govt. Hence that coal babay is dead

This wildly inaccurate. Coal is and will remain the mainstay in our present program. Last year alone 12,000 MW of capacity was added. All of it coal and gas, a little Hydel. This year roughly 1000MW of Solar has been added and still no Nuclear.

The more Nuclear fails the more folks get seduced by its shiny complexity. The more complex the better. Nulclear is and will remain 2% or so of our energy mix. Maybe 5% in a heroic future.

Even at 10 cents a KW coal is cheaper than new nuclear.

If the Coal baby dies the entire Indian economy will die with it.
------------------------------------------------

When did NM become the modern day Pharoah. In any case even he has not built a nuclear consensus in GJ. Without such consensus all he is doing his exploiting the lack of opposition. This is not an ideal democratic situation. It will come back to bite GJ at an inopportune time.

[Neela]

Hmm, the 'untested' nuclear power plant (Westinghouse AP1000) is going to come up in Gujarat (as per agreement with NPCIL). How come NaMo isn't protesting? Perhaps because he is a true bharat rakshak unlike Mamata Banerjee

Hmm the 'untested' nuclear power plant (Westinghouse AP1000) is alreadying coming up in 7 locations in the US and 2 locations in China with a total capacity of more than 3.8 GW .
If independent reviews have been done, that makes it US + China + India ; all have agreed and given go-ahead for construction.

Tell me, where in particular do you find issues with the reactor? Safety mechanisms? Please explain. You must know something that all the experts have missed.

[Sanku]

Hmm the 'untested' nuclear power plant (Westinghouse AP1000) is alreadying coming up in 7 locations in the US

Could you please list them Neela ji? Serious question, not kite flying.