Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Sanku]

To think Vishnu also comes across and posts here pretending to be a well wisher of armed forces.

[chetak]

Fellow BR colleagues may like to see this clip and observe how this low-life Vishnu Som tries to distort the stand of the COAS in the entire affair. For the record, Som's father was an IFS factotum.

Fortunately, the two soldiers invited to Som's programme were clearly not impressed by the fertiliser dished out by the impertinent little toad. General Bakshi and General Thapliyal stuck to their stand and explained how the babus in the MOD had contrived to generate the whole controversy

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/p ... urt/222871

"the impertinent little toad" is a BRFite.

but I agree with you, all the same.

Another toady in the person of an ex cabinet sec also makes his very obnoxious appearance on TV.

[Austin]

The Secret Secret Service - How Indian Army's Military Intelligence Directorate works

[Vipul]

Govt negotiating with Gen's family for a settlement.

The Con(gress), though officially did not touch upon the Supreme Court order on the date of birth of the Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General V K Singh on Friday, top sources said the government was in touch with the Chief’s family to negotiate an honourable settlement.

The Congress’ official comment was that the matter was in court. "The matter is sub-judice. What is there for political parties to comment? This is precisely the practice I condemn which the BJP is in the habit of doing," party spokesman Abhishek Singhvi told reporters.
Wondering how political parties could "parachute into this space", he said it is a "sad and bad day for democracy and judiciary" whenever it happens.

But behind-the-scenes indications were that a compromise was in the works. Top government sources said members of Singh’s family had been in touch with Law Minister Salman Khurshid to address the issue of the honour of the COAS.

The terms of the settlement were that the government would write another letter to the Chief assuring him that it held him in the highest esteem, and say that while his recorded date of birth was 10 May 1950, “we recognise that you may have had another date of birth, viz 10 May 1951”. This would have addressed the General’s assertion that he had two dates of birth, but that it was the earlier one that the government had recognised.

General Singh has made it known that he did not want ten more months in service but the fact he had not misrepresented his age. The letter was meant to enable Singh to withdraw his case and retire this year.

The letter was apparently shown to the family of the chief and their consent taken that the matter would not go further and that in Court the government would say that the matter had ben sorted out amicably.

With the Supreme Court having given time till 10 February to the government and the COAS to ‘sort out’ the matter, the compromise option was on the table.

However, sources said Defence Minister A K Antony and the civilian bureaucracy were still ‘studying the implications” of such a move. Ministry of Defence (MoD) said it was ‘studying’ the matter.

The COAS met Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee last night for less than 10 minutes after he had been kept waiting for nearly 20 minutes because the Finance Minister had another visitor.

Defence Minister A K Antony had issued an order on December 30 turning down the statutory complaint of Gen Singh that his date of birth be treated in Army's records as May 10, 1951 and not as May 10, 1950. The Court on Friday asked the government whether it would like to turn down its previous order.

[nelson]

A more telling account of what happened in the courtroom.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

[nelson]

From the above article

Mr. Vahanvati said: “There is something very serious in the matter as there was an attempt to get the opinion from a legal adviser of the Law and Justice Ministry to support the General's claim, bypassing the Ministry. He also gets the opinion of four former Chief Justices of India. This is not proper. That is why it was referred to me for an opinion.”

The attorney general is lying through his teeth. It is established practice that before a department decides on an issue involving legal opinion the advice of the Ministry of Law/ or the Central Govt counsel in various locations of the High Court is sought. For example, each and every case the Adjutant General is fighting in the Supreme Court is after obtaining the legal advice and concurrence of the Joint Secretary (Def) in Ministry of Law. Its role and charter of duties is available here...
http://lawmin.nic.in/RTI/RTI-Manual.htm

[ramana]

That so called "compromise" with the general's family is shoddy. It still makes the Gen look like he was misrepresenting. Its the AG branch that has the official reocrds. The MS branch does not and that should be settled.
Besides it now the honor of the servce and not just the General's.

[ramana]

Also legal counsel is passing the buck to the Minsiter and not taking responsiblity for giving wrong advice.

Shouldn't the AG resign for he has been out twice in a row: 2G scam and now DOB fiasco.

[nelson]

An even better, lucid, blow by blow account of what happened in Court No 8 of honourable Supreme Court...
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gen-w ... t/907771/1

[Philip]

"Compromise".One of the panellists on a channel correctly said that there could be no "compromise" upon the DOB,as one side would have to acknowledge that the other was right,and lose face,but there could be a compromise at "the method of determining the DOB".
The crux of the matter is why the MS refused to accept the AG's stand that the DOB was '51 and not '50,why no internal inquiry was held to reconcile the two,and which entity has the decisive say in the matter.This what the MOD/St.Anthony should've done much earlier.It will now be done in the full glare of the public in court.Another panelist said -from his inside sources,that the minimum that Gen. VKS would now accept in any compromise was a meeting with the PM to resolve the issue.well knowing how devious and sly,sorry......"shy", our beloved PM is,fat chance of that happening unless Mrs.SG intervenes and her "consigliere" would be wise to advise her to do just that!

If the govt. loses it will be a devastating blow,adding to the 2-G scam licence cancellation verdict (with CWG to eventually follow),the treatment and "hanging" of the most reputed ISRO scientists without giving them a fair trial,showing the govt. to be utterly venal,corrupt and incompetent.Can it afford politically to do so? It would be far better for it within this week to swiftly determine the truth and accept that the MOD's version was wrong (scapegoats within the IA/babudom can always be found) and say "sorry" to the good general restoring his and the service's honour and dignity ,and by doing so get a little of it rubbing off also onto its tattered reputation as willing to find out the truth and do justice.

[abhishek_sharma]

Cannot invoke AFSPA in rape, murder: SC to Army

[chaanakya]

Compromise.


.... Bofors...CWG....2G......

If this rot is not exposed and stemmed India that is Bharat will be compromised.

If Army has to survive the general rot in Society, there should be no compromise.

The only question to be determined is whether DOB is 1951 or 1950. The General should serve his tenure as per his DOB. The CONgress would accept anything as his DOB as long as General steps down to make way for the anointed one. This compromise should not be accepted. This dubious process must stop. It is not a question of his Honor and Integrity but that of the Armed Forces.

[narmad]

To think Vishnu also comes across and posts here pretending to be a well wisher of armed forces.

May be he is being the Devil's Advocate

[nachiket]

To think Vishnu also comes across and posts here pretending to be a well wisher of armed forces.

May be he is being the Devil's Advocate

Then he should qualify his stand as such or else it will be taken as his real opinion.

[Austin]

In the decade that i have watched Vishnu Som ..he has covered Indian Defence Forces quite well in his reports.......as an anchor they have to play both sides to keep the argument balanced.......seen yesterday even Arnab Goswami doing that. See no reason to doubt Vishnu integrity

[Jaybhatt]

Austin : You are entitled to your views about Vishnu Som's "balance" and "integrity".

However, you are day-dreaming if you feel that his performance in recent times has been objective and neutral.

Please see the clip that I sent yesterday - young Som was completely devious and underhand. All his remarks about the Chief, and
the stand that the good General has taken, were loaded and underhand. If you believe otherwise (about yesterday's programme), you probably also subscribe to the flat earth theory.

[Philip]

Jay and others,the fact is that the media has access-is provided with enormous amounts of "food",hard data,documents,etc.,by the govt./MOD to buttress its case in this and other issues.The media then acts upon the info that it has recd.Being "economical with the truth",to use a famous phrase used by a British civil servant,is the govt's. way of slanting info provided. Therefore,to discover any hidden truths that give a completely different picture is difficult for any media entity.RTI's also cannot access classified info.So to blame scribes and journos outright without knowing what sources they have based their reports upon would be unfair.In the current case,it is a fact that Gen.VKS did accept his DOB as 1950 as we well know,under duress.If I as a journo am provided with a heap of letters that show him acccepting his DOB as 1950,and staying quiet for a couple of years ( as he thought he would get rectification later on),what will I think?

On the other hand Gen.VKS will find it more difficult,to "leak" docs.,etc,other than from his personal records.Exchange of letters between MS and AG,etc.,showing the different viewpoints of both entities,have now emerged with the media.They were no available earlier.As the controversy snowballed,so too has the amount of inside info! It is now in the hands of the SC which will direct this gripping drama to its eventual end.The first Act is over.Act-2 in the courtroom is yet to start,we are awaiting the curtain call.Act-3 Judgement Day we expect may be during the "Ides of March".As I said before Gen.VKS will be Caesar,Anthony is on stage already,but who will be Brutus?! Will we see a twist in the tale?

[Sachin]

It has been amply pointed out, that the AG branch has all along promoted the General on 1951 basis. Even MS Branch has been listing Gen SIngh based on 1951. Or, its just a typo.

But then why did Gen.V.K Singh himself mentioned in the plea to the SC that in good faith he allowed his date to be changed to 1950? So is it not admitting that the records in two administrative wings in the Army were different, with a plan to reconcile them later.

Besides it now the honor of the servce and not just the General's.

On the honour of the services part. Wont it be better that any malpractise done by the (then) senior officials in the Armed forces are also highlighted? From what ever I could make out from the last 2 days discussion here, the fact that some senior Army officials had put another DoB in the records of a Military Branch (M.S Branch) is obvious. I see the politicians getting abused for their shoddy performance here (which is very much right). Now how about giving the same treatment to the senior army officials who actively connived in this case?

I see nothing discussed on the acts of the former chiefs who were also involved in this.

[rohitvats]

In the decade that i have watched Vishnu Som ..he has covered Indian Defence Forces quite well in his reports.......as an anchor they have to play both sides to keep the argument balanced.......<SNIP>

Yes, quite similar to the conduct of one Sandeep Unnithan...

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>

Besides it now the honor of the servce and not just the General's.

On the honour of the services part. Wont it be better that any malpractise done by the (then) senior officials in the Armed forces are also highlighted? From what ever I could make out from the last 2 days discussion here, the fact that some senior Army officials had put another DoB in the records of a Military Branch (M.S Branch) is obvious. I see the politicians getting abused for their shoddy performance here (which is very much right). Now how about giving the same treatment to the senior army officials who actively connived in this case?

I see nothing discussed on the acts of the former chiefs who were also involved in this.

You don't see where? In the media or on BRF? As for BRF, just scroll back couple of pages and you'll see the opinions stated on conduct of JJ Singh and Deepak Kapoor -with JJ Singh, IMO, being the main culprit and DK using the DOB issue to settle scores with VKS. So, yes, the rot is with-in the IA itself. But the same could not have been possible without the support and quid-pro-quo from babucracy in MOD and political masters. The bigger questions is this - if the rot is only within IA, why is the MOD going out of the way to not correct something which prima facie appears incorrect? Unless, as I said, there are favors being called and IOUs being exchanged. By all means, the court should ask JJ Singh and DK to explain their stand. Let the SC establish that there was a criminal conspiracy, which I think there was, order investigation and bring the culprit to justice. The IA needs the catharsis to rid itself of the poison which has accuulated inside.

[nelson]

So Nelson, my hopes were not misplaced after all. What?

Let it play out first. The shenanigans of the govt and their advisors are well known. What could have been decided by the Defence Minister his advisor on defence matters the Defence Secretary and the Military Secretary, closeted in a room for half an hour, has taken a year to reach this stage. God knows what they are up to, next?

@Sanku
You see the 2G case. how the SC washed its hands of without indicting the powers that be PM and then FM.
Now the trial court follows suit.

[Sachin]

By all means, the court should ask JJ Singh and DK to explain their stand. Let the SC establish that there was a criminal conspiracy, which I think there was, order investigation and bring the culprit to justice. The IA needs the catharsis to rid itself of the poison which has accuulated inside.

You have neatly stated what needs to be done . This is exactlty what I was also trying to bring out. There are lots of "holy cow's" in India. Let us see how many of them are eligible for that title ("holy").

And if IA can get rid of this problem, I would be the happiest.

[sunnydee]

An interesting discussion. Just a couple of observations.
1) Mistake committed by the COAS - He should have stood his ground when he was a corps commander and ensured his DoB did not get changed. He did state that he came under duress and therefore agreed to the dob. However a three star general who is a symbol of honour and integrity cannot use that as an excuse. The same backbone he is showing now should have been shown at that time. Thus there is room for suggesting that when he was a corps commander he should have stated his dob is 1951 and if the AHQ/MOD at that time had refused to entertain his requested he should have take the AHQ to the courts.
2) MOD - Did not deal with this issue with appropriate urgency and let it fester till too late.
3) Possible mistaken perceptions on this forum - There is significant belief that career management has caused the chaos about Gen VKS DOB. There are strong indicators based on the culture of the top brass that this argument could be true. However who are the people who have caused it cannot be ascertained. JJ/DK are some of the culprits who have been named. However no one has any evidence of this and its all heresay.If we had to make such arguments you would have the SGPC saying that VKS is anti sikh and all the rubbish which comes along with that as he wants to stop Bikram Singh from becoming a chief.Using such a line of thought without evidence can cause emotional outbursts but do not strenghten any argument.I agree with Sachin that what is required is not all these assumptions but a thorough investigation of what led to this pressure being put on the good general. Secondly there are lot of players who could be using VKS shoulder to advance their own interests. After all who would benefit if VKS lost the case or through a compromise solution resigns immediatedly. Do not just look at one or two people below the chain.

In conclusion i would suggest the three people who seriously need to look at there actions are:
a) Gen Singh for not showing the b***s when he was a corp commander. If he can show them now he definitely could have showed them then
b) Def Sec: The way his civil servants have approached this issue.
c) RM: For not showing leadership and urgency in getting this issue resolved much earlier.

[nelson]

This was posted some twentry pages back http://indiamydreamland.blogspot.in/201 ... chief.html

The ‘age row’ – Coup against the Army Chief
By Karan Kharb
Dust kicked up in the media has the Army Chief’s date of birth at its core even though it is not the real issue. Sadly, the Government authorities including ministers have sought to portray it as if Gen VK Singh were greedy to hang on to his chair longer by seeking a ‘change’ in his date of birth. If it was so, why should the Government try to bargain with him by dangling ‘compensatory package’ in the form of post retirement sinecures like appointing him ambassador or governor ‘if he agreed’ to retire in accordance with the wrong date of birth? These offers reported widely in the media have not been denied by the Government until now – a live fact that lends credence to the existence of a more sinister intrigue squirming beneath the innocuous looking ‘date of birth ruckus.’

Gen VK Singh has a proud record of unimpeachable credentials as an officer and a gentleman. Even his enemies, if there were any this side of the borders, would find it hard to question his integrity. For a man who has served the country with selfless devotion, any suggestion of greed guiding his petition is not only unfair to the country’s Army Chief – proud symbol of nation’s military might, but also utterly bad for the country and its military where officers lead by personal example. And Gen VK Singh’s personal example has been undoubtedly the most outstanding in all respects all through his long service career. If the general was greedy, he would grab the sinecures offered and oblige the authorities but his principles do not allow him to give up unless the wrong is set right – no matter how lucrative the offer in lieu.

The argument of ‘personal greed’ pushing for a ‘change in the date of birth’ also gets demolished by the fact that Gen VK Singh was fully qualified to be where he is today because neither of these dates would come in the way of his promotion to general’s rank. The ‘change’, if ever it was required, was settled long ago before his admission to the National Defence Academy when the UPSC had sought clarification about the variation in the date birth given in his UPSC application form (10 May 1950) and the date given in his School leaving Certificate (10 May 1951). Having fully satisfied itself from his clarification then, the UPSC had accepted the date given in his School Certificate as the correct date of birth and closed the matter. Everybody knows that legally and conventionally the School Leaving Certificate is the accepted authority for date of birth in all government departments. In the instant case it has also been reinforced by his ‘Birth Certificate’ issued by a Military Hospital. Where is the scope for doubt? Further, at the Indian Military Academy (IMA) when merit list of the passing out course is drawn, dates of birth of each gentleman cadet (GC) is scrutinised while fixing the seniority and allotting Service number to the newly commissioned officers. They are then issued with their Service Identity Card that carries the officer’s date of birth. The IMA authorities too recorded 10 May 1951 as VK Singh’s date of birth in all his documents, which continued without any shade of ambiguity from any quarter until he was seen as a possible contender for the post of Chief of the Army Staff (COAS). Had there been even an iota of ambiguity in his date of birth, he would not have been granted Commission.

Now, as the storm gathers more dust it raises many intriguing questions. When did the second date of birth first appear in the MS Branch records? How did a wrong date of birth erased by the UPSC long ago creep in surreptitiously in the Officer’s service documents at the MS Branch so many years later? Why was no question raised on his annual confidential reports (ACRs) which carry date of birth and are submitted to the MS Branch every year? Why also were no questions raised on other periodical submission of service documents, reports and returns received from the officer’s Unit/Headquarters showing the same date of birth that came to be challenged by the MS Branch years later? Why was the confirmation given by the Adjutant General’s (AG’s) Branch not accepted by the MS Branch even though it is the AG’s Branch that is the official custodian of personal records of officers of the Indian Army? Why did the Ministry of Defence retract its initial decision to order an investigation in the matter? If the General’s contention is wrong, why are the authorities trying to placate and ‘rehabilitate him honourably’?

It is well known in the Services that senior officers of the rank of major generals and above routinely weigh their inter-se probability of rising to higher positions and appointments in the coming years. In a milieu involving course mates and known equals in the Service, it is easy to calculate as to who is in the run for the top rung and who will miss out by superannuating before the incumbent Army Chief retires. Being Chief of an Army which is world’s third largest is naturally a very prestigious and enviable distinction for an Army officer. Besides the lustrous embellishments of the high appointment, the position also has unique authority and an assurance of due prominence in the annals of India’s military history. Obviously, the position of the COAS is lucrative enough to make many in the queue aspire for the high position. However, if there be an unscrupulous person in this queue, the systemic process can be manoeuvred and manipulated especially in times when some very senior army officers including an MS have been recently court-martialled for unbecoming conduct. It is therefore relevant to ask whose interests are served most if Gen VK Singh’s date of birth is altered from 10 May 1951 to 10 May 1950? And who misses his chance to be considered for the top job if his genuine date (10 May 1951) is accepted as actual? The answer to these simple questions will provide you the thread that leads you through the weave to the coterie that conspired and connived to vitiate and circumvent service records of an unsuspecting soldier like VK Singh.

It is the General’s magnanimity that he is simply asking for removal of the ‘mischief’ in his record and not raking up the issue to unravel its cause. An enquiry into the matter might embarrass his predecessors and the Government. Therefore, Gen VK Singh’s is not a case of ‘change of date of birth’ as is being projected in the media. It is becoming more obvious that the entire case is actually a conspiracy that was hatched at the Army Headquarters (MS Branch) to pave the way for some ‘favourite’ who would otherwise have to retire as a lieutenant general unless something is done to force VK Singh out of office in a manner that would appear normal retirement on a date desired by the ‘coterie’. Hence the mischief and fudging of his service records at the MS Branch (Army Headquarters) – and lo, even the Government appears to be conniving in the plot after initial wavering – the Law Ministry upholds one date, the Attorney General upholds another!

Sadly, these are dirty times marked by endless high profile scams in the Government. Even the Army’s image stands smeared by some of its own generals who drifted and succumbed to allurements in a couple of cases of unbecoming conduct. At the time of assuming the office of the Chief of the Army Staff, Gen VK Singh had declared that he would clean up and improve the ‘inner health’ of the Army. True to his word, he has acted against the malaise swiftly and sternly without fear or favour. This healthy trend to restore inner efficiency and professionalism of the Army must continue.

The need of the hour is honest and upright commanders at the top because officers given to manipulation and intrigue for self-advancement can wreak havoc for the country if assigned sensitive offices of high authority in the Armed Forces. It is desirable that absolute and fairness and transparency is observed by the Government in tackling issues concerning military leadership and morale of the Forces. Prudence suggests that truth and justice alone must be allowed to prevail in the Armed Forces, even if such recourse appears unpleasant and bitter for the time being. The on-going ‘date of birth row’, as it has come to be known, must be quickly resolved in a transparent and judicious manner by accepting the General’s actual date of birth as actual and he must continue to serve his full tenure with full dignity and honour that is due to him.

[sunnydee]

Oh yes!! Thanks Nelson. The fourth culprit is definitely the establishment known as AHQ. Their failure from the start point suggest institutional failure as 1) poor record keeping 2) The different branches have become fiefdoms and the chieftains of these fiefdoms dont like sharing information and power.

On the issues of coitere etc etc i am not fully convinced as evidence is lacking. Unfortunately evidence can only be obtained if a formal enquiry is launched and as stated earlier i suggest a full fledged enquiry into this case. A failure to do so can cause future chief's also to lose their credibility if not in the eyes of the officers and men they lead but at least in the eyes of the public and the government they serve.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army downs two Lashkar terrorists in Pulwama, kashmir

[Surya]

Sachin

JJ jas been mentioned many times in this thread


I think Katoch refers to him in terms running it as a personal fiefdom

[Sanku]

Sachin

JJ jas been mentioned many times in this thread


I think Katoch refers to him in terms running it as a personal fiefdom

Sachin Maroof Raza and others have been merrily mentioning the two names on times now for some time now.

So its not correct to say it is not being discussed in the media.

[Sanku]

An interesting discussion. Just a couple of observations.
1) Mistake committed by the COAS -

I am sorry there was no mistake, he took his time to finally hit the nail on the head.

That so called mistake is not going to stand in court a whit.

[sunnydee]

Sanku,

I will not debate it from a legal aspect as i am no legal expert. That would be for the Supreme Court to decide. However i will debate it from a leadership perspective. And from that aspect i would suggest that he should have shown moral courage when the issue was raised in 2006 itself. Leaders in general and army officers specifically are not suppossed to play chanakya/sun tzu/Von Clauswitz etc with moral courage i.e. display it at their time of choosing but at all times irrespective of circumstances.

[nelson]

Sanku,

I will not debate it from a legal aspect as i am no legal expert. That would be for the Supreme Court to decide. However i will debate it from a leadership perspective. And from that aspect i would suggest that he should have shown moral courage when the issue was raised in 2006 itself. Leaders in general and army officers specifically are not suppossed to play chanakya/sun tzu/Von Clauswitz etc with moral courage i.e. display it at their time of choosing but at all times irrespective of circumstances.

Exactly this what the corrupt men of this nation, in uniform and plainclothes, are thriving on. The moral courage of some one else, competent enough to lead the nation. And use the moral courage of this man, as a bait to trap him into obscurity. At the cost of repetition i say, "had VKS not adhered to instructions of the then Chiefs, he would be a Maj Gen(retired) still languishing in the corridors of Supreme Court".
And does this requirement of moral courage apply only to the subject in question, VKS? What about JJ or DK or even AKA?

[sunnydee]

That in my opinion, based on my perspective of values, still does not give an all clear to Gen VKS. With regards to JJ,DK and AKA my view is clear, as can be seen on a few of my posts, that a thorough neutral enquiry must be conducted into the biz of promotions at Flag officer rank level including this case. I would suggest that the GOI conducted an inquiry into this issue with representation from each service as well as the MOD chaired by a former CJ.(Obv i know that in all likelihood will not happen so i shall keep on dreaming )

[schowdhuri]

That in my opinion, based on my perspective of values, still does not give an all clear to Gen VKS. With regards to JJ,DK and AKA my view is clear, as can be seen on a few of my posts, that a thorough neutral enquiry must be conducted into the biz of promotions at Flag officer rank level including this case. I would suggest that the GOI conducted an inquiry into this issue with representation from each service as well as the MOD chaired by a former CJ.(Obv i know that in all likelihood will not happen so i shall keep on dreaming )

You need to rewind a bit and look at this in more detail. VKS date of birth issue was holding back promotion of others, since the whole process was stopped. He was told to accept 1950 in the interest of the army, and others whose promotion was also held up, and that his problem would be sorted out later. Where is the lack of morality you see in this? That is also what his acceptance of the 1950 date says - that he is doing it in organisational interest.

[sunnydee]

I used the term "moral courage". My POV is that if he had conviction about this issue he would have ensured that he would not have put his name to the "dotted line". Thus my view that he cant claim to be fighting for his personal honour and integrity because he missed doing it at that time. In fact my understanding is , and please correct me if am wrong, is that he agreed to the date of 1950 twice.(wld be great if there was a timeline for reference-always thought he agreed to the 1950 dob twice - once as lt gen, corps commander, IInd corps and secondly as Army Commander,Eastern Command.)

[schowdhuri]

sunnydee,
I give up you don't seem to have read what I wrote.

[sunnydee]

Please explain to this backward, illeterate mind if you dont mind sir ? or would that be ma'am ?

[peter]

Please explain to this backward, illeterate mind if you dont mind sir ? or would that be ma'am ?

It does not seem you know much about this issue.

From: http://outlookindia.com/printarticle.aspx?279801

Beyond 2006 and particularly in 2008, what were the compulsions of the MS to continue ignoring ‘reconciliation of age’ requests by Gen V.K. Singh? What were the instigating factors— Gen J.J. Singh, his successor Gen Deepak Kapoor or someone higher up? Why did Gen Deepak Kapoor ring up Gen V.K. Singh to submit the famous certificate "…. in organizational interest" on the plea that a whole lot of promotion cases are held up with MoD, promising at the same time that he would ensure "reconciliation of age" within 30 days when he as Chief could have resolved the issue within Army HQ in 30 minutes by summoning the MS and AG? What were the compulsions of Gen Deepak Kapoor? Were his actions on his own volition or was he being pressured to do so, and if so by whom and for what purpose?

[peter]

Sanku,
Leaders in general and army officers specifically are not suppossed to play chanakya/sun tzu/Von Clauswitz etc with moral courage i.e. display it at their time of choosing but at all times irrespective of circumstances.

Says who? You? Who are you?

Do you know much about Indian History? Why don't you start with Mahabharata?

[sunnydee]

@Peter In reply to your first post i have repeatedly stated an official neutral inquiry needs to be conducted to figure why such a mess was created. Secondly i have stated the reason i believe VKS played a role in this fiasco as well was because he did not stand up to the big bosses at the point of time when it was raised. That showed lack of moral courage for not standing up for his convictions at that moment of time. In regards to your question i could also ask you "You? Who are you ?" but that does not augur well for a debate so i refuse to entertain that question nor would i want to ask you the question. And would you be kind enough to explain what does Indian history have to do with the argument you have quoted ?

[peter]

@Peter In reply to your first post i have repeatedly stated an official neutral inquiry needs to be conducted to figure why such a mess was created.

Irrelevant. Court has the details and will dig if it needs to.

Secondly i have stated the reason i believe VKS played a role in this fiasco as well was because he did not stand up to the big bosses at the point of time when it was raised. That showed lack of moral courage for not standing up for his convictions at that moment of time.

Only in your un-informed mind.

Are you by any chance suggesting Katoch is lying?

If not then are you have parsing difficulty with the english language quote given above?

In regards to your question i could also ask you "You? Who are you ?" but that does not augur well for a debate so i refuse to entertain that question nor would i want to ask you the question. And would you be kind enough to explain what does Indian history have to do with the argument you have quoted ?

Well looks like you do not know Mahabharata or you do not understand the question you asked. Take your pick.