Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

[Philip]

ALH naval variant.Rejected because the requirements/capabilities of the naval brief could only be delivered by a "10t helo".The basic problem is that the end-user is NOT taken aboard at inception of projects.Just see what ACM Browne has said about the IJT/HTT-40 (the IAF does not want them (IJT delays,engine a total umport from Russis), now that the Pilatus has been acquired,but HAL insists upon developing it. Who therefore is going to fund HAL's tech-demonstrator of an IJT/HTT-40,and to what purpose if the IAF isb gainst it?

Pithy statements from ACM about "penalising" errant desi developer/suppliers.Moreover quality issues as many are saying.What happened to the HTT basic trainer...which crashed so often that it was dumped in favour of the kne-jerk acquisition of the Pilatus.We can't develop a basic trainer or IJT on time but has visions-some say delusions, of developing an AMCA!

[PratikDas]

Misraji, yes the South American customers are having issues, so they thought the best way of expressing that would be to help HAL with photo ops of models packing the HAL built helicopter.

[Misraji]

Misraji, yes the South American customers are having issues, so they thought the best way of expressing that would be to help HAL with photo ops of models packing the HAL built helicopter.

My earlier disclaimer

Of course, I am merely presenting a hypothesis. It may well not be true.

Anyway. Thik hai Bhai. i concede the point.....

Though I am not sure what insight either of us will gain by agreeing that South American customers are not having problems....
Isn't the problem much closer to home?

Frankly the main revelation for me is how much trouble the Armed forces have to undergo in the name of indigenization.
I am a jingo and I want to see our home-grown stuff being used. But not like this.

--Ashish

[PratikDas]

The problem is overstated, amplified, because the product doesn't come on time or with a cupholder. It is another matter that as far as India is concerned, the product had to be invented, not stolen.

[Misraji]

The problem is overstated, amplified, because the product doesn't come on time or with a cupholder. It is another matter that as far as India is concerned, the product had to be invented, not stolen.

The talk has examples after examples of problems with a system AFTER induction.
What exactly is being overstated? How can we refute facts?
Since the problems are AFTER induction, invention vs copyright does not even come into play.

Lets recognize the problem for what it is.
There is nothing to gain by burying our head in the sand and blaming the aggrieved party for it.

What is IAF supposed to do?
Hold candle-light vigils till HAL agrees to provide product support? ....

--Ashish

[PratikDas]

Where is the budget for after sales support?

Can you show me any references to CAG reports for after sales support budgets?

[Misraji]

Where is the budget for after sales support?
Can you show me any references to CAG reports for after sales support budgets?

HUH? ...
I have no more points to make. Thanks.

--Ashish

[PratikDas]

I'm not being facetious. Do we pay for lifetime costs for ALH like we do for C17?

Added later: Just read the CAG report from 2010-11 http://cag.gov.in/html/reports/commercial/2010-11_10PA/chap3.pdf

Lots of negatives about HAL's performance but section 3.7.7 is very interesting.

Misraji, you might just want to have a look.

3.7.7 Facility for Maintenance Repair and Overhaul

Against the approved cost of Rs. 54 crore (April 2006) for creation of Maintenance Repair and Overhaul (MRO) facility till date (December 2009) only Rs. 16 crore were spent indicating that necessary attention was not given to this issue. It was observed that there was delay in repair/overhaul of ALH ranging between 7 and 25 months. The customers have noted (June/August 2008) that poor serviceability has affected the availability of ALH for operational use. Although the products/services delivered to IAF/Army are governed by Fixed Price Quotation Policy (FPQ), the FPQ price and the cycle time for repair/overhaul are yet to be finalised. Against a claim of Rs. 103 crore (on 41 ALH), the Company had realised Rs. 64 crore only

[anjan]

OT:
Why has nobody thought of this before? heard it here first:
We need to privatize armed forces. I am sure companies like Reliance can protect the borders in a timely, cost effective and reliable manner

I'm sure this was meant to be some kind of stinging rebuke to the forces. Still, for the record, lots of people have thought of it before. They're called mercenaries. Historically it's never been a bright idea right down from the days of Hannibal.

[shiv]

You and Shiv talk that the IAF should work with what is available. I say that WE should do the same with what is available in the IAF as well and not have unrealistically idealistic expectations from them.

That is a minor misinterpretation of what i wrote. I come from being a blind IAF admirer and I still am. But I now know a lot more.

Again I do not want to be rude but the IAF's institutional attitude to me is coming across as that of a chowkidar/watchman level mindset rather than that of an acutely aware strategist.

The IAF consistently seem to say "Hame hathiyar de do aur hum larenge" (Give us the weapons and we will fight)

Fine. Nothing wrong in this attitude. But a step up from here would be "After 50 years why is our nation not able to keep up with our needs? If we are not stupid and they are not stupid there must be some other problem. If they can't solve the problem we the IAF would like to help by examining the issue and contributing our brainpower"

The Indian Navy did just that.

The Indian army, for all the cursing we do lose the largest number of men in peacetime and have been using OFB, OFB, OFB, Avadi, BEML which we curse as much as HAL.

What is the IAF's khujli? Th IAF too is referring to the third umpire by saying "Our job is fighting. Your job is providing weapons so its not my problem" I have heard the IAF curse and rant about DPSU and I have personally seen an ex DRDO type treating an ex fauji as a glorified chowkidar (they were friends and played golf together)

The IAF is a glamour force. Fighter jocks are glamour boys. There are postings that are "undesirable punishment postings" and I bet an IAF officer posted in HAL will get the job as an undesirable punishment posting. This may be fiction but unless the IAF get their gloves off and get deeply involved with industry things cannot change.

In the meantime vina is right about the yumbeeyay mentality of DPSU chiefs who will make promise on the basis of imports and will instantly recognize that a time consuming tendering process will have to be done if a rivet spec changes.

HAL and IAF have to hold hands even if that sounds disgusting. It's not. The future of military aviation depends on the IAF being acutely aware of what we can do and industry being acutely aware of what IAF needs.

[shiv]

Dr. Strangelove: How do you know whether the Paki, NoKo, and Indian nukes are not controlled by end user licences?

Did I say they were not controlled by end user licences? But unlike aircraft they are use and discard. Single use. After one use the license is worthless. But aircraft need to be re used and will not get spares if we break the licence.

[member_20292]

The IT industry has a concept called crowdsourcing. For the Indian Aerospace Industry, I suggest a concept of national sourcing, wherein programs are broken down into projects, and each project is assigned via technical bidding to the best possible engineering team (public or private), and the entire program concurrently managed by the prime integrator.

How about a free for all? Anyone can buy anything from anywhere. I believe , personally, that that works better than quota systems.

Because. We forget. Yet again.

That while we struggle with quotas and this% FDI in retail and this % in insurance and that % in defence, the US allows companies to do so many things with their time and money, that more than often than not, they like to set up shop there and then export to India.

Thus, we should, compete with the US, as a free for all system and get rid of this % business.

[PratikDas]

I hope people see from the CAG report that as of 2010-2011 the repair time was not even finalised. Seems like repair is a best effort service toward IAF because the contract was not clear from the beginning.

[rohitvats]

I hope people see from the CAG report that as of 2010-2011 the repair time was not even finalized. Seems like repair is a best effort service toward IAF because the contract was not clear from the beginning.

Sir, this is what you quoted and posted from CAG Report:

3.7.7 Facility for Maintenance Repair and Overhaul

Against the approved cost of Rs. 54 crore (April 2006) for creation of Maintenance Repair and Overhaul (MRO) facility till date (December 2009) only Rs. 16 crore were spent indicating that necessary attention was not given to this issue. It was observed that there was delay in repair/overhaul of ALH ranging between 7 and 25 months.

The customers have noted (June/August 2008) that poor serviceability has affected the availability of ALH for operational use. Although the products/services delivered to IAF/Army are governed by Fixed Price Quotation Policy (FPQ), the FPQ price and the cycle time for repair/overhaul are yet to be finalized. Against a claim of Rs. 103 crore (on 41 ALH), the Company had realized Rs. 64 crore only

You do realize that if HAL has not established a ROH facility leading to delays, it is not going to be in position to commit a cycle time for repair and overhauls. It is this ad-hoc system which you pass off as some virtue which is the problem.

So, what are we pointing at here? And this report is from 2010. And the IAF officer pointed to the same issue in 2013. So, what gives?

[member_22539]

LiveFist: R.I.P India's 197 Copter Deal: Magazine Report

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2013/02/rip ... azine.html

The only good thing I can see in this is that the indigenous LUH program gets more time to mature and make up some of the numbers, and of course another instance of excessive foreign fetish being avoided. But, I do feel sorry for the guys who make do with what is woefully inadequate 60s era tech (not their loud mouth commodores though).

[shiv]

Ardiden with its Shakti engine had one on display advertised as the engine used by the ALH and to be used by LUH. The HAL stall confirmed that LUH engine would be the Shakti.

[Sagar G]

Since the only accepted viewpoint here is that the IAF is the one facing all the problems, it can do nothing wrong, they are all saints and totally devoted to indigenization blah blah blah blah and whines about HAL. Let me play spoil sport and post the reply of an HAL guy from the seminar itself, he said....

My name is Subhramanyam Sir I am from HAL I am working for MRO division ALH so whatever you said I can I agree for it but there are some issues which about with airforce also for the last 4 yrs. out of my 5 yrs. 6yrs. service in HAL . I have worked in airforce like Sarsawa and Yelahanka and Sulur Barielly I worked personally I worked infact I got similar to HAL I also found some airforce also some lacking in in terms of (Clapping starts in backgorund) placing RMS sir ( to which IAF guy says "I took I took that blame on ourselves way back when I said we have been blamed for changing the QC's" and then the HAL guy takes over) QC's AOG's and ravingtime and speeding AOG's and placing firm tasks so which as a public sector we without having a firm task or firm RMSO we will not be able to procure so there has been a lot of delays from our side because of this reasons that is the first first point I want to clarify. Second point is I was in airforce for quite a long time servicing helicopters ALH I have serviced about 7 to 8 helicopters (it sounds like he is saying hectors/heptors might be a short term coined by the maintenance crew) personally with my own team taken from Bangalore. In fact I used to go and personally pick up the materials to city Saharanpur and Delhi to make the expedite??? the servicing activities Offcourse (some word I couldn't figure) out a lot of time how much you should take about 4 to 5 months but what I found during servicing is offlate HAL uhh airforce has really changed it's mindset in earlier days (then starts in Hindi) "HAL ko de diya unka kaam hain aisa" as that mindset was there I had I had bring brought out some changes speaking to commanding officers and STO's so that mindset has changed now it will improve sir now the turnaround time will improve ( IAF guy says Thank You very much) so the airforce has taken initiative to based upon there learning sir as in servicing of ALH and they have done around faster than us that is because they got more expertise now so learning has been quite far off they have learned very fast so but initially we had these hiccups i.e. (Again in Hindi) "Ye hamara Jahajh hain ye aapka Jahajh hain aisa" so that that thing has gone so that I found myself I worked with them and brought the changes so almost all three airforce units have worked, along with Army I found Army was little bit better compared to Airforce in terms of flexibility so all these delays is because of this sort of mindset it was there earlier.So I want the airforce to little bit modify

IAF guy says you want you want my response on this HAL guy says no no uhh I mean both the airforce also change it's mindset comparatively and can also move faster IAF guy says, Now that you have raised the issue of Sarsawa I would also like to flag the maintainability issues wherein for the first one aircraft detachment a An-32 full load of ground equipment had to be carried to maintain that aircraft (HAL guy says correct) that's a major setback for an single aircraft maintenance which has to be carried out on outside station that you have to carry an An-32 full of ground equipment just to support one aircraft. That also shows the poor importance given to the maintainability aspect which I brought out, at the design stages the requisite features have not been incorporated into the aircraft. HAL guy again says correct and continues, and initially whatever the hiccups was there we have brought out but planning has to be better there from airforce side also and airforce also like HAL is a big organization it also has headquarters at unit level and again eerie sir largestick people co ordination between themselves is a little bit lacking. IAF guy says Talking of change of approach may I also request you to change one approach of HAL, don't take advance from us before commencing the task. HAL guy laughs IAF guy smiles

The words which I couldn't make out properly have been marked red.

[John]

Oh. The AL55 uses the same gas path and materials and is a "derivative" of the AL31 alright.

I suspect what IAF chief is talking about is not the whole truth, but rather "truism", which hides more than it reveals.It is not as if the engine is not designed for 1500 hrs or whatever, it is. So why the 100 hrs life , because it probably is CERTIFIED only for that at present. In due course it will get fully certified for 1500 hrs. But which airframe is being held up until it is fully certified for life hours and all flight regimes ? Yup, you guessed it, the IJT.

I hate to resurrect this topic again but as per this article NPO Saturn is only in 2012, started working on extending service life to 300 hours. It seems like we choose the engine without even specifying or querying what the service life for Al-55 will be.

With the high-temperature trials over, the AL-55I-powered HJT-36s started their stall and spin tests. Upwards of 70 flights had been logged by the two HJT-36s powered by AL-55I turbofans by August 2010. NPO Saturn expected to deliver four next AL-55Is to HAL before year-end and six more during 2011. Now, under a HAL-awarded contract, Saturn is running developmental work to extend the engine’s service life up to 300 flying hours, with the work to be complete in November this year.

[Sagar G]

The biggest spoilsport was when a CEMILAC guy answered about documentation of LCA.

A guy asked if there is some software/course for documentation and certification of the same and something something which I don't have the patience to type so I am Fast Forwarding to where Air Cmde takes up he says,

There are agencies who have been assigned with this particular task of certifying the documentation which has been carried out OK and I have already brought out in this particular regard that the documentation is far from acceptable especially if you are talking of LCA the documentation is not ready at all I don't know about the operator's manual but as far as servicing schedule is concerned they are not ready the second line servicing schedules are not ready the overall procedure which would be required to undertaking the ROH of various segregates are in nowhere readiness the second line testers are not in any readiness so I only wonder as to how we are going to exploit this particular aircraft.

The Chairman conducting the session says, "There are very clear cut guidelines on what the documentation should be for the user" and then says some more explaining his point but I again FF a bit to the part which according to me was the most accurate and to the point thing that happened in that "session". The Chairman asks Mr. Baghel from CEMILAC to explain about it and he says....

Your problem over the documentation and Vibhas is also telling LCA documentation let me assure you when we started given IOC-1 for the LCA we had made the list of the document which by and large services are using to operate there fleet in the services It is maintenance manual, servicing manual and related to flight manuals also. There are in my memory 34 manuals are there which we have taken the responsibility to co-ordinate the 6 flight manuals other manuals are as per the standard it is being followed there is no need of any certification these are the standard guideline as per the standard and the LCA they have hired the services of documentation agency and they are in the process almost all the documents are getting ready it is being certified by CSDO and other relevant agencies of IAF so don't say the documents are not being certified document is very well defined and being certified by the services themselves.

Then he continues a bit with the guy who asked the question and says that

"Documentation is a purely services requirement and they have to certify, there agency CSDO and other relevant agency to certify it".

I have typed exactly the same words as was said by Air Cmde, HAL guy and Mr. Baghel from CEMILAC, if anyone finds any discrepancy do suggest the correction.

[Surya]

Austin

it may be for the good or get worse - depends

Its human psychology

if a customer who is equally responsible for problems just berates me publicly, I am going to be only helpful to the extent needed by the contract - nothing more , nothing less

That could just as easily occur.

I still cannot believe that the IAF brass decided this was the venue to let loose??? Not the brightest decision by the IAF brass

But then the ACM also claims the claims of abandonment of CRPF trooper is all nonsense etc

[manum]

^^^

But then the ACM also claims the claims of abandonment of CRPF trooper is all nonsense etc

This is the point I wanted to make but rather did not...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19903

Dismissing as "nonsense" allegation that IAF personnel abandoned an injured policeman in a chopper, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne Thursday said there should be end to "sniping" at each other by security agencies in Naxal areas as it would affect operations there.

He said the "lesson that we all have to draw is that we all to work together as a team in one direction instead of finding faults in one incident."

At one juncture he talks of team work and not cribbing...and at the other end they choose most public venue to attack a partner for life...for whatever reasons...

[Surya]

manum

I also debated posting that line because it has potential to spin out of control

but I think we are a sensible lot

[Sagar G]

He suggested that the IAF team on the chopper had left the chopper and the injured police man as they wanted to avoid being taken hostage in the area infested with Maoists.

If so is the case then why leave the cop to be taken hostage by the Maoists ???

[manum]

Actually I remembered an incident in my life after this accident....When I used to study in 7th grade...I was a good student...in an exam, I was kind of talking to student behind me...and then teacher asked me are you cheating....

I stood up confidently and said that "mam ! how you expect me to cheat with this guy, he knows nothing"....It was innocent reply...later I realized what I did, I still feel ashamed of the incident...

This is exactly same IAF did...letting down someone they intimately knew...

[Surya]

sagarg

wrong thread - lets leave the challenges to the ACM statements for the CI thread

It was mentioned here to only point out what manum is saying

If we take the ACM at face value in one statement what to make out of the other .

[Sagar G]

Surya

Thanks for pointing out, will take it there.

[Mihir]

IAF is right in saying customer is the king , you cant argue with that in todays era.

More like customer is king when the supplier can be bullied. But not when the Russians shaft you with constant delays, price gouging, and failure to live up to contractual obligations. Or when the Americans unceremoniously throw out your R&D team when you test a new clear bomb. Or say that they will onlee allow you to buy X number of Javelin missiles.

[PratikDas]

I hope people see from the CAG report that as of 2010-2011 the repair time was not even finalized. Seems like repair is a best effort service toward IAF because the contract was not clear from the beginning.

Sir, this is what you quoted and posted from CAG Report:

3.7.7 Facility for Maintenance Repair and Overhaul

Against the approved cost of Rs. 54 crore (April 2006) for creation of Maintenance Repair and Overhaul (MRO) facility till date (December 2009) only Rs. 16 crore were spent indicating that necessary attention was not given to this issue. It was observed that there was delay in repair/overhaul of ALH ranging between 7 and 25 months.

The customers have noted (June/August 2008) that poor serviceability has affected the availability of ALH for operational use. Although the products/services delivered to IAF/Army are governed by Fixed Price Quotation Policy (FPQ), the FPQ price and the cycle time for repair/overhaul are yet to be finalized. Against a claim of Rs. 103 crore (on 41 ALH), the Company had realized Rs. 64 crore only

You do realize that if HAL has not established a ROH facility leading to delays, it is not going to be in position to commit a cycle time for repair and overhauls. It is this ad-hoc system which you pass off as some virtue which is the problem.

So, what are we pointing at here? And this report is from 2010. And the IAF officer pointed to the same issue in 2013. So, what gives?

What's missing is the carrot and the stick. There have to be incentives for completing a repair task within a preset duration and penalties for exceeding it. The MoD should be insisting on this because it should be concerned about HAL's performance. I don't buy the argument that the IAF is so tired of appealing to the Defence Minister that it was left with no choice but to name and shame HAL publicly, effectively torpedoing HAL offerings at Aero India. And even if that were the case, IAF serves the government and the Ministry of Defence is its interface. So if the best Antony has been able to achieve with HAL is as was portrayed in the seminar, then it really is IAF's lot to live with. It should have been a case of put up AND shut up [in public]. A public presentation at a marketing exhibition should have been out of the question. But it is not for IAF to understand such things.

I am no card carrying HAL fan boy as the posts below will show but HAL, whether we like it or not, symbolizes the Indian military aviation industry internationally. The public thrashing it has received from its King customer has essentially set back the whole industry. Thanks, IAF.

Hindustan Aeronautics is ready to take on challenges: Tyagi.

May interesting Gems in this (f)article... many questions were condescending and even downright rude...

FWIW, My vote is for this line of questioning - objective and uncharitable - given the context of HAL and those specific projects. If someone took the same approach with Research Centre Imarat, DRDL, the Brahmos team, ADA or other centres of excellence, I'd have a problem with that.

And yes, Mr. Tyagi did answer well.

Anyway, there cannot be a louder call for private industry participation than this. I think Indians deserve an open hearing conducted by the MoD from Tata, Mahendra and other large private companies on their current plans for participating in Indian projects. Lets hear in a common forum what encourages or discourages them today and what changes would secure their participation and investment for tomorrow. This canard of private [Indian] industry participation as the solution needs to be settled. The industry must be Indian as we need to build intellectual property as a nation. Or we should prepare to give IAF a black American Express card.

[PratikDas]

IAF is right in saying customer is the king , you cant argue with that in todays era.

Has the RuAF ever criticised Ilyushin/TAPA for IL-76 spares at MAKS? Has the RAF ever criticised LM for the F-35 at Farnborough?

[member_20292]

^^^^

But Boyds boys have criticized the f 35 through and through. called it a dog..afaik.

so yeah. democracies bicker. yes. thats natural. but the iaf guy deserves censure for being a little boyish .

[Karan M]

^^^^

But Boyds boys have criticized the f 35 through and through. called it a dog..afaik. .

But they are rtd and out of the AF afaik.

Have either RuAF or RAF been pinched operationally? Operative word is "operationally".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

A bit sensationalist though, but brings out issues.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03 ... _analysis/

[NRao]

Have either RuAF or RAF been pinched operationally? Operative word is "operationally".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

That article also states that the RAF in an attempt to save money did not order enough parts! So raf better not complain.

[shiv]

CAS Air Marshal Browne makes eminent sense. Watch from here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Tfc#t=800s

[shiv]

Here is a somewhat debatable bit from the CAS' talk, Listen to what he says here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fc#t=1130s

If an industry starts small and manufactures radio altimeters (1960s stuff) would the IAF buy them?

[SSridhar]

MoD to shortlist firms to make Avro replacement - Businessline

In a contract expected to be worth around Rs 12,000 crore, the Ministry of Defence (MoD), in a first of its kind, is to shortly issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) to a number of private sector companies including Reliance, Tata, Larsen & Toubro and Bharat Forge for the manufacture of 56 aircraft in the six to eight- tonne payload capacity. The chosen player will be designated the Indian Production Agency (IPA).

Similar to Avro

The new aircraft is expected to have a cruise speed of 800 kmph and a range of 2,500 to 2,700 km, with the ability to carry around 25 to 30 passengers and be able to operate in hot and cold, humid and dry weather conditions. It is expected to make its maiden flight in around six years.

Questioned on the specifications of the replacement aircraft, Air Marshal P. Kanakaraj, Air Officer-in-Charge of Maintenance at Air Headquarters, said that what the IAF had in mind was an aircraft similar to the Avro, given its suitability for Indian conditions, but with superior Air Staff Qualitative Requirements in areas such as advanced technology, power and capacity.

The Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshall N.A.K Browne, in his speech at a seminar organised to coincide with Aero India, had stated that the RFP for the Avro replacement would be issued shortly.

Given that Indian private sector companies are still years away from systems integration, leave alone designing, developing, and producing a medium-sized transport plane on their own, the chosen company will have to collaborate with an existing overseas aircraft manufacturer, who will, in turn, do the necessary hand-holding for the Avro replacement to be successfully licence-produced in India.

Officials pointed out that foreign companies which make aircraft with specifications similar to what the IAF wants could include Russia’s Ilyushin, Ukraine’s Antonov, the European consortium’s EADS and Italian firm Alenia.

Phase-out

Used mostly for communication and movement, the late 1950s British-designed Hawker Siddeley 748 was licence-produced in India by HAL as the HAL-748 Avro. HAL built 72 for the IAF and 17 for Indian Airlines Corporation.

The IAF used the Avro for almost 40 years extending its life by substituting numerous indigenous systems. But with spares almost impossible to get with the OEM having closed shop years ago and the IAF unable to indigenise systems like such as auto pilot, weather radar and electrical and electronic connectors, it has no choice but to phase out the aircraft.

The IAF is keen that the Avro replacement project be handled by the private sector rather than HAL.

[vic]

C-27 Alenia TATA combine should win this. No other suitable aircraft.

[Indranil]

C-27 Alenia TATA combine should win this. No other suitable aircraft.

I would be surprised if Mahindra aerospace doesn't compete. Their protfolio by 2015 will be a 5,8,10 and 20 seater. A JV with EADS for a C-297 equivalent will give them a 30-50 seater by 2018-2019. Just the kind of inorganic growth Anand Mahindra was speaking of in AI-11. And EADS has already collaborated with Mahindra.

P.S> 1. If done properly, I think these planes can replace the AN-32s later.

[Indranil]

MoD to shortlist firms to make Avro replacement - Businessline

Similar to Avro
The new aircraft is expected to have a cruise speed of 800 kmph and a range of 2,500 to 2,700 km, with the ability to carry around 25 to 30 passengers and be able to operate in hot and cold, humid and dry weather conditions.

It is very similar to Avro! If that speed is not DDM, we are speaking of a turbofan powered plane.

[member_23455]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

That article also states that the RAF in an attempt to save money did not order enough parts! So raf better not complain.

The RAF had to agree to Joint Force Harrier and Joint Helicopter Command - NAK Browne and the IAF have it much better, for now...

[Austin]

India Touts Aerospace Engineering, Manufacturing Capabilities